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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-22

---Logopened Fri Jan 22 00:00:15 2016
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04:05<Wolf01>o/
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06:17<argoneus>good morning train friends
06:21<Wolf01>o/
06:26<argoneus>\o
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10:03<Mazur>*phew*
10:03*Mazur wipes the perspiration off his brow.
10:04<Mazur>had a bit of a scare, there.
10:05<Mazur>Upgraded BIOS, had not made preparations for should it go wrong, as I did not see how it could go wrong, then laptop stayed blank for half a minute on first boot into new BIOS.
10:06<Mazur>When it finally booted, X login never appeared. That, however, upon second reading, was a disk shutdown error, boot sequence was asking for confirmation to FSCK.
10:07<Mazur>And now:
10:07<Mazur>It is alive...
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10:28<Wolf01>Mazur, you are lucky, my main bios has suicide intentions, it killed 2 ram banks and tried to kill the new ones, so I had to switch to the secondary one, and I updated it too just to be sure it understand what could happen if tries to do bad actions
10:29<Wolf01>too bad I can't flash the main one from here, and it doesn't like to boot
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10:38<@Alberth>moin
10:45<Flygon_>Oh jesus
10:45<Flygon_>I'm tired af
10:46<Flygon_>I was worried Wolf01 was trying to prevent a human suicide for a sec
10:46-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
10:46<Flygon>I've gone through way too much of this
10:46<Flygon>Night, y'all!
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13:03<@Terkhen>Hello
13:04<@Alberth>hello
13:13-!-Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d0861ce.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]
13:27<argoneus>hello
13:31<Wolf01>http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1X5c7jrX_3k/Vp1b7Df_T9I/AAAAAAACgns/CBkXhWrNXgo/s0-Ic42/tumblr_mo4aw99DMe1qzf6fco1_1280.jpg nice... anyone for a new feature and related grf?
13:32<V453000>train on 2 tracks? why
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is that even supposed to be?
13:33<V453000>heh you could make train track sprites look like 2 tracks, but good luck making it look nice
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, somebody wanted to make a "Breitspurbahn" GRF, but i don't know if that ever went anywhere
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>the only "train" i know that ever relied on double track rails was the DORA cannon in the siege of sewastopol
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>there's also the ultra wide track in baikonur
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27501 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2016-01-22 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek: 4 changes by Ferrum
13:50<zokier>I get this weird desktop background corruption after exiting openttd http://imgur.com/eZp0rsu
13:51<Wolf01>oh modern art, cool
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>zokier: try without fullscreen mode
13:52<zokier>Eddi|zuHause: ok, it doesn't happen in windowed mode
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>zokier: anyway, that is almost certainly the fault of your graphics driver. all openttd could possibly do is provide workarounds
13:53<zokier>thats kinda what i was afraid of
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>zokier: try starting openttd with "-b 32bpp-optimized" or "-b 32bpp-anim"
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>("optimized" will disable palette animation, like water flowing or fire burning)
13:54<zokier>same thing happens with 32bpp blitter
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>then i'm out of ideas
13:57<zokier>ok, thanks for the suggestions anyway
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14:23<SpComb>http://kotaku.com/comparing-how-strategic-strategy-games-actually-are-1754363805
14:25<andythenorth>what larks
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>a lark, supposedly
14:26<andythenorth>it does
14:26<andythenorth>by definition I suppose
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>unless it's a nightingale
14:29<andythenorth>definitions are hard
14:44<frosch123>oh my, i found it kind of annoying that belts feed into the exit of underground belts also sideways
14:44<frosch123>but today's fff shows that you can actually use that weirdness for something unique
14:44<Wolf01>what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it?
14:45<V453000>:)
14:46<frosch123>i also noticed the weirdness of splitters not splitting symmetrically
14:46<V453000>I was seriously WTF IS THIS SHIT when I saw it the first time
14:46<frosch123>but did not found such tricks to actually use it for something :p
14:47<frosch123>i remember requiring a belt line switcher before
14:47<frosch123>now i learned how it can actually be done :p
14:47<V453000>well belt switcher is easy to do
14:47<V453000>this shit is just pure magic
14:47<V453000>smart, but still magic :D
14:47<frosch123>you need the trick with the underground belt
14:48<frosch123>or is there anothjer one?
14:48<V453000>I guess you need the underground belt
14:48<V453000>which admittedly is not very intuitive either XD
14:49<frosch123>yeah, it annoyed me several times, that stuff feeds into underground belts that way, but i did not notice that only one lane actually feeds
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it? <-- i think by "excitement" they mean "adrenaline-inducing action"
14:50<Wolf01>like when you removed a signal and suddenly remembered there is another train there and no more signals?
14:50<V453000>yeah ... I didn't notice it until I saw it on some post which explained tricks with belts
14:51<andythenorth>TT has very low strategy
14:51<andythenorth>almost none
14:51<andythenorth>there is a basic low-level background strategy
14:51<V453000>DO I WRECK THESE FUCKING TRAINS OR NOT
14:51<V453000>BE OR NOT TO BE
14:52<V453000>hi andythenorth
14:52<andythenorth>“build routes that are profitable"
14:52<Wolf01>if you want to play it the base way, you can do motherboard-bus-style-track between 2 stations and flat map
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>Europa Universalis is definitely on the "hard" side of strategy
14:52<Wolf01>if you want to cram more train that tiles into a zone, you need a bit of strategy
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>it took me months to get to know even the basic game rules
14:53<andythenorth>nah, that’s mostly tactics :)
14:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you are mixing "hard" and "complex"
14:53<frosch123>something that has so complex rules that it takes ages to learn it, is not necessarily hard
14:54<frosch123>same vice versa
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14:54*andythenorth tries to figure out if there is any other strategy in TTD
14:54<andythenorth>probably not tbh
14:54<andythenorth>there is strategy when a GS is used
14:54<frosch123>the best games are those, which are hard, but still have simple rules
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, europa universalis has "simple" rules. you declare war, you go into battle, and you get a result...
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>that result is probably not good, if you have no deeper understanding of things
14:55<frosch123>no, it has a plethora of ideas and building to pick from
14:55<Wolf01>I don't have a clear definition of tactic vs strategy, but as far as I remember, most RTS games should instead be tactic games
14:55<frosch123>trade, merchants and other weidos
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, those are the complex things
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>but you can easily play on without knowing those
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>the tutorial says something like "put one merchant home, the other one(s) at the next downstream node"
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably good enough for a while
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>"tactic" is usually whatever comes before the battle, "strategy" is what comes during the battle.
14:58<Wolf01>wiki says the opposite
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>there may be grey areas between them
14:58<V453000>OMG I MANAGED TO INSTALL PIL
14:58<Wolf01>maybe wikiit is wrong
14:58<V453000>everybody praise me
14:58<V453000>XD
14:58<frosch123>V453000: why would you have to?
14:58<frosch123>what are you doing?
14:58<V453000>python script for creating spritesheets
14:58<V453000>we do that in factorio
14:58<Wolf01>no, also wikien says that: Strategy is undertaken before the battle. Tactics are implemented during battle.
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: use pillow?
14:59<V453000>Eddi, console told me missing PIL, so I obeyed :P and it works
14:59<andythenorth>never ever try to install PIL
14:59<andythenorth>ever
15:00<frosch123>oh my... once there was a train weirdo who built stuff on #coop... then he decided to go into pixel drawing, transitioned to 3d modelling,... and now he start programming :)
15:00<andythenorth>I went the exact opposite
15:00<V453000>it's fine frosch123 , the shithead just managed to install the tool and use a script with fairly idiot-proof parameters :P
15:00<V453000>not dangerous yet
15:01<andythenorth>i was coding games, then I started doing 3D CGI, then drawing, now I’m on eBay buying model trains
15:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tactics / strategy /s above
15:01<frosch123>andythenorth: do you think V will continue with lego?
15:01<andythenorth>although it’s a grey area
15:01<andythenorth>frosch123: dunno :)
15:01<V453000>XD
15:01<Wolf01>example, take starcraft: the only strategy I see there is "oh, I'm $race and I spawned here, so I should do this and that" during battle you use a lot of different tactics and end up doing anything about the strategy you thought about
15:02<andythenorth>a battle is tactics in a campaign
15:02<andythenorth>an engagement is tactics in a battle
15:02<andythenorth>a melee is tactics in an engagement
15:02<andythenorth>and it’s all turtles from there
15:03<andythenorth>frosch123: got any landscape gen ideas?
15:03<andythenorth>and can we bin the crappy tropic settings for TGP?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>ok, then, apparently "strategy" is long-term planning, while "tactics" is short-term
15:03<andythenorth>because they’re dumb
15:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1, and strategy <-> tactics depending on time horizon
15:04<Wolf01>instead TT is strategy, because you need to think about a profitable route to extend for the next 100 years, you aren't there for moving the tracks like a swamp river
15:04<andythenorth>TT is _mostly_ tactics
15:04<andythenorth>but that is debatable forever and a day
15:05<V453000>what about playing TT with a long-term strategy, like using network which is expandable etc.
15:05<V453000>:P
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15:05<Wolf01>but you need a vaste view and prevision for the next years, which is a strategy
15:05<V453000>shots fired
15:05<Wolf01>if you focus on micromanagement is tactics
15:05<andythenorth>I guess there are ‘strategies’ and ‘winning / losing strategies'
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>i think what the table was trying to say is you don't need a lot of planning to get a successful company going in TT
15:05<andythenorth>in TT there is only one winning strategy
15:05<andythenorth>all else is moot
15:05<andythenorth>unless GS
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>you can always use more, but it's not required
15:06<andythenorth>‘build profitable routes'
15:06<andythenorth>is all
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think they forgot minecraft ;)
15:06<V453000>I understand tactics vs. stragey like: In starcraft, I use strategy X as in going mass marines, and in the battle I use tactics Y like splitting the marines to certain clusters
15:06<andythenorth>V453000: +1
15:06*andythenorth must play OpenTTD
15:06<andythenorth>I am using Busy Bee, so…no strategy at all
15:07<andythenorth>except don’t build stupidly
15:07<frosch123>andythenorth: ideas consist of: 1. rename 'smoothness' to 'scale', 2. add mapgen/heightmap preview, 3. add 8 or more sliders which specify a monotonic height transformation using splines, which transforms heightmaps and mapgen maps, defines sea, plains, snowline and plateous, 4. remove the hardcoded climate-mapgen relations and instead allow saving/loading setting profiles, 5. alow setting sea, desert, rainforest and snow as percentages of
15:07<frosch123>map area, instead of fixed heights
15:07<V453000>to OpenTTD I would translate this similarly, big goal = strategy, implementation / how you lay out tracks / how you solve junctions/stuff = tactics
15:08<andythenorth>what does ‘smoothness’ even do?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: bonus points for disabling the snowline slider if a snowline grf is used
15:08<andythenorth>it just makes coasts ugly or not
15:08<frosch123>andythenorth: it zooms the map
15:08<frosch123>rough means zoomed out: many small hills
15:08<andythenorth>the only valid smoothness value is ‘rough'
15:08<andythenorth>the rest are stupid
15:08<frosch123>smooth means zoomed in: few extended hills
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i quite like "smooth"
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>you get nice rolling hills that you can climb with rails
15:09<andythenorth>coasts are ugly though
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>instead of thousands of bumps that you need to terraform away, or you can't build anything
15:09<andythenorth>maybe ‘smooth’ is ok
15:10<andythenorth>and ‘rough'
15:10<andythenorth>the extremes are dumb
15:10<frosch123>yep, a range of a setting is okay, if both extremes are dumb :)
15:10<andythenorth>fair
15:10<andythenorth>I like all the ideas :P
15:11<frosch123>can you implement them?
15:11<frosch123>i am rather in the mood to write a new gs :p
15:12<andythenorth>I am busy with a FIRS :P
15:12<andythenorth>but GS is intriguing o_O
15:12<frosch123>fair, that leaves eddi
15:12*andythenorth has to play test new economies, takes time
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>sure. if you want a project to never be finished, assign it to me...
15:15<frosch123>what's the difference?
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15:17<andythenorth>I have loads of never finished projects
15:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you haven’t finished any fewer projects than me
15:17<andythenorth>in fact
15:17<andythenorth>you have finished more projects than me
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>can you list a project i finished?
15:18<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository
15:18<@Alberth>you started playing openttd?
15:18<andythenorth>proof positive ^
15:18<andythenorth>ok, I made the release, but the final useful commits to HEQS are Eddi
15:18<frosch123>haha, true, eddi finished playing ottd :p
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, let's say i stopped :p
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i made a random fix, that's not "a project"
15:20<andythenorth>nah
15:20<andythenorth>you finished more projects than me
15:20<andythenorth>HEQS is the only project of mine that is finished
15:21<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ definitely Eddi|zuHause should do it
15:21<andythenorth>he has the best track record of anyone here
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>let's say i disagree both with your definition of "project" and your definition of "finished"
15:24<andythenorth>you closed the last bug that will be closed :P
15:24<andythenorth>unless a new maintainer emerges
15:31<andythenorth>frosch123: the GS idea? o_O or is secret?
15:31<frosch123>it's still the cargo/area based development thing
15:32<andythenorth>how did it go? Win goals to unlock map areas?
15:32<frosch123>no idea
15:32<andythenorth>deliver something to towns
15:33<andythenorth>get more towns
15:33<andythenorth>get new industry types
15:34<frosch123>it was along the lines of: there is no steel in this area, add goal to produce or deliver steel in area, independent of whether there are currently any industries that would produce/accept
15:34<andythenorth>the thing I like about SV
15:34<andythenorth>it never fails
15:34<andythenorth>NCG is also fun, but can generate unwanted/boring combinations of cargos
15:35<andythenorth>SV has very little dependence on the industry grf
15:35<andythenorth>BB same
15:35<frosch123>yes, you need to make some cargo classification
15:35<frosch123>what is primary, what in secondary
15:35<frosch123>what can be produced now from serviced chains and so
15:36<andythenorth>not sure how to do that reliably
15:36<frosch123>sv does :p
15:37<frosch123>anyway, i mainly want to try to go without goals for specific industries, but rather target areas
15:38<frosch123>there is one area with a big supply of cargo A, there is another area in medium distance that has a big demand of cargo A -> proclaim goal
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15:39<andythenorth>I like that
15:40<andythenorth>I assumed it would be by town, for ease of naming
15:40<andythenorth>but maybe that’s not necessary
15:42<frosch123>no idea how it turns out, maybe it will be towns
15:42<frosch123>but i do not want to pick towns/cargos randomly
15:43<frosch123>the gs shall be the obsessed president of the company, and you are the executive director :p
15:43<andythenorth>needs to be some progression, geographically
15:43<andythenorth>with the right map, coast-to-coast would work
15:43<andythenorth>but eh, maps
15:44<andythenorth>“North of South” is a name I nearly used for a FIRS economy
15:44<andythenorth>(it’s a book)
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15:52<andythenorth>one day
15:53<andythenorth>there will be powered and unpowered roads / tram tracks
15:54<andythenorth>and it’s just a bit on a tile
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15:58<Birko>Hi,i try to make my own AI and I would like to know if it possible to get information about size of builded station via NoAI API
16:00<frosch123>Birko: http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAITileList__StationType.html
16:04<Birko>thanks :)
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16:07<andythenorth>Alberth: 12 goals max for BB? o_O
16:07<andythenorth>seems to work for me
16:07<andythenorth>forum thread had not much comment
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16:13<_dp_>tried bb on btpro, 20 is about minimum imo xD
16:14<@Alberth>what is max now?
16:14<@Alberth>If you want it higher, go ahead
16:15<andythenorth>10 currently
16:15<andythenorth>hmm
16:15<andythenorth>20 is a lot :D
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16:15<andythenorth>kind of makes it pointless
16:15<andythenorth>I guess maybe not in MP
16:16<andythenorth>_dp_ how many players on btpro o_O
16:16<@Alberth>it has 20 goals for each company
16:16<frosch123>are the goal shared between companies?
16:16<@Alberth>so you have to play coop to need many goals
16:16<_dp_>though what goals are you talking about? how many to show at same time?
16:16<andythenorth>how many available at one time
16:16<@Alberth>frosch123: nope
16:16<_dp_>ah, that was 10 and I think it's fine
16:16<_dp_>20 was game goal
16:18*andythenorth won’t change it right now
16:18<andythenorth>it’s trivial to patch locally, when I remember :P
16:19<_dp_>btw, does bb still give same secondary ind for different companies?)
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16:20<_dp_>that was quite drawback...
16:20<@Alberth>definitely possible that it happens, it only checks for duplicate goals between companies iirc
16:22<@Alberth>there is currently no such thing as "this industry output is for company X"
16:22<_dp_>should check for that too imo, sharing production of secondaries is not a strong side of openttd xD
16:23<frosch123>somehow that raises the idea to write gs that enforces the reverse
16:24<frosch123>you are not allowed to take cargo from industries to which you deliver
16:24<andythenorth>ha
16:24<andythenorth>that sounds evil
16:24<andythenorth>especially in single player :P
16:24<frosch123>yep :p
16:25<_dp_>hm, it actually may have its uses)
16:25<frosch123>it could be a competition
16:25<_dp_>but I bet it's not possible with gs atm :p
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16:25<frosch123>you win if you deliver more than the other guy can transport ways
16:25<frosch123>*away
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16:28<frosch123>you can either attack one player by delivering lots of cargo to one industry
16:28<frosch123>or by scattering it to other ones
16:28<frosch123>or by makind evil orders that shift the delivery in random patterns :p
16:29<frosch123>but the other guy can counter attack the same way
16:29<andythenorth>strategy?
16:29<andythenorth>or tactics? :P
16:29<frosch123>but i guess it has troubles with blocking industry access
16:30<frosch123>you would have to split the area around the industry 50/50
16:30<frosch123>hmm, unless you divide the delivery ammount by the number of company owned tiles in vicinity
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16:31<frosch123>yeah, that may work
16:31<frosch123>both players would try to build at the catchment area border
16:33<_dp_>tug of war in openntd)
16:35<_dp_>unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling cargo delivery between stations and industries :(
16:35*andythenorth wonders about Directed Bee
16:35<_dp_>not even with newgrfs
16:35<andythenorth>prefers goals at one side of the map, every year it moves a little further across
16:35<andythenorth>probably boring :P
16:36<@Alberth>we should put cargo payment under GS control :p
16:38<_dp_>yeah, but how? gs doesn't even have a proper callbacks afaik
16:39<@Alberth>callbacks won't work, too time critical
16:39<_dp_>and server-side only
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16:41<andythenorth>local payments per town
16:41<andythenorth>via newgrf cbs
16:41<andythenorth>but GS sets modifiers per town monthly
16:42<frosch123>start small: gs can detect delivery, so you can give bonus and penalties
16:42<frosch123>but didn't we already conclude that money is meh?
16:42<@Alberth>lack of money isn't :p
16:42<andythenorth>money is meh
16:43<@Alberth>or even a negative payment :p
16:43<andythenorth>some reason to deliver to x not y is not meh
16:43<andythenorth>money might cause that
16:43<andythenorth>or other things
16:44<@Alberth>frosch123: you don't know where stuff came from, which makes it difficult for controlling what a user should do
16:45<frosch123>you can abuse cdist for that, if you want to know the exact routes
16:46<frosch123>but why does the exact route matter? unless you want to subsidise transfers, which i would appreciate :)
16:47*andythenorth enumerates GS things
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16:47<andythenorth>out loud
16:48<andythenorth>SV: intense routing challenge in small space (1 town)
16:48<andythenorth>NCG: ruthless decisions about maximum speed of delivery + fast building speed
16:48<andythenorth>BB: free of strategy, and makes a nice messy map
16:50*andythenorth thinking about other fundamental mechanics
16:51<frosch123>spreading stuff
16:51<frosch123>transfers
16:51<frosch123>delivering lots of cargo using little tracks
16:52<@Alberth>cargo / month / track piece :p
16:52<andythenorth>average speeds?
16:52<@Alberth>good night
16:52<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:52<frosch123>nah, speed is bad
16:53<frosch123>it penalises transfers and certain transport types
16:53<frosch123>and breakdowns
16:53<andythenorth>hmm
16:53<frosch123>and generally junctions
16:53<andythenorth>I had an idea that every town has a goal
16:54<andythenorth>and there are maybe 10 types of goal
16:54<andythenorth>and you just do them all, then go to sleep
16:54<frosch123>generally a gs should go for stuff, which players may be too lazy otherwise
16:54<frosch123>the gs could favour short trains (< 3 tiles)
16:54<frosch123><=
16:54<frosch123>many short trains are also messy :)
16:54<andythenorth>ha
16:55<andythenorth>favours trains as a transport type :P
16:55<andythenorth>I think I favour GS that say ‘build here’ rather than ‘build like this'
16:55<frosch123>deliver 5000 tons of cement to gain a free canal?
16:56<andythenorth>power grid was an idea I had
16:56<andythenorth>would have used Zuu’s API
16:56<andythenorth>every town has power level
16:56<andythenorth>which modulates industry production in that town
16:57<andythenorth>needs a newgrf thing though, to identify industries that produce power :|
16:58<andythenorth>industries are flagged to produce power, consume it, or neutral
16:58<frosch123>that is just a cheap excuse to not distribute supplies :p
16:59<andythenorth>yup
16:59<andythenorth>same could be done in newgrf, using town control
16:59<andythenorth>that nobody ever uses :P
16:59<frosch123>i don't think big-scale booster cargos work
16:59<frosch123>their applification factor seems too big
17:00<andythenorth>agreed
17:00<andythenorth>tbh, I like simple goals :P
17:00<frosch123>i never liked gung-ho 4x production
17:00<andythenorth>me neither, still don’t
17:00<frosch123>is that still a thing?
17:00<andythenorth>yes
17:00<andythenorth>mostly I added it for NCG and SV
17:00<frosch123>somewhen i connected 4 industries in a circle
17:00<frosch123>primary -> secondary -> tertiary -> supplies
17:01<andythenorth>and in FIRS 2.5 or 3.0 I will provide an option for 1.5x / 2x production, not 4x :P
17:01<frosch123>and that circle amplified itself
17:01<frosch123>game was doen
17:01<andythenorth>4x messes up nice networks also
17:01<andythenorth>but, simple town goals: ‘deliver x amount (once)’, ‘deliver x amount every month’, ‘fund an industry’, ‘have a rating of n%’
17:01<andythenorth>etc
17:01<andythenorth>one goal for every town on the map
17:02<andythenorth>win them all for a prize
17:02<andythenorth>cuddly toy
17:02<andythenorth>play that on 2048 x 2048 with high towns
17:02<andythenorth>:P
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17:08<_dp_>btw, is there any way to stop industries from drying up and closing in long game?
17:08<frosch123>manual industries :p
17:09<_dp_>what exactly do you mean?
17:09<frosch123>it's a newgrf
17:09<_dp_>even on fundin only they still die
17:09*andythenorth must to bed
17:09<_dp_>damn newgrfs
17:09<andythenorth>bye
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17:09<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/manindu
17:10<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=136830
17:11<_dp_>yeah, looks like it
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17:13<_dp_>wish it was in game itself
17:16<frosch123>luckily it's a game
17:16<_dp_>aha, and not compatible with other industry sets...
17:17<frosch123>it's a troll newgrf
17:17<frosch123>for all the whiners who do not like randomness, and try to argue about realism
17:20<_dp_>I don't care about realism
17:20<_dp_>want map to be same even if players join late
17:20<_dp_>now it's like dead after 30 years
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>everyone who uses "realism" as argument didn't think long enough about arguments...
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17:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: does that also hold for counter arguments?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>you mean using "realism" as counterargument?
17:22<frosch123>yep
17:22<frosch123>it's realsiic, it must bad; it's bad because it tries to be realistic
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i think that applies
17:23<_dp_>why trains require rails? it's too realistic! :p
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: have you tried wetrails? :p
17:24<frosch123>_dp_: see, that's where realsism goes the wrong way
17:24<frosch123>the interesting part are the rails, not the trains
17:24<frosch123>get rid of the trains!
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17:25<frosch123>night kids
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17:31<_dp_>damn, all I want is to do a nogrf fixed-goal server that doesn't suck
17:31<_dp_>goddamn impossible :(
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18:16<Wolf01>'night
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19:10<Birkooo>What is the best way to get all tiles around some industry which are buildable and have cargo acceptance for that industry? I am making my own AI and I am currently thinking about best place for station. thx :)
19:21<@Terkhen>good night
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19:53<Eddi|zuHause>Birkooo: try to valuate a list of tiles?
19:57<Birkooo>Eddi|zuHause: I am going to try use MakeTileRectAroundTile() from SuperLib, it seems good
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19:59<argoneus>probably a bad channel
19:59<argoneus>but where did you guys learn modern C++11/14 from?
19:59<argoneus>I found some books but they are more reference
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>Birkooo: usually you'd want to draw a rectangle around the industry with the radius of your station type (3 for road stops, 4 for train stations, 5 for docks), and then filter out the ones that don't provide acceptance (that is especially problematic for oil refineries)
20:03<Birkooo>Eddi|zuHause: yes exactly, but how to solve situations near the map edges? If an industry is near the edge, it will have different radius to some direction
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, yes. you could either not care (and assume the acceptance filter will probably work), or build a map edge check into your rectangle function
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20:05<Eddi|zuHause>you might have weird effects if there happens to be a similar industry at the other end of the map
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>if you're feeling a bit more creative, you could also draw the rectangle anyway, and valuate for "void" tiles, which would indicate you're crossing a map edge, and choose a different method...
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>but that's probably more elaborate than checking a coordinate to be less than 0
20:10<Birkooo>Thanks for ideas :) I try to figure out something
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22:32<Birkooo>Has squirell min/max function for integers?
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 23 00:00:17 2016