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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-23

---Logopened Sat Jan 23 00:00:17 2016
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02:58<andythenorth>V453000: I want to rename ‘FIRS’ economy
02:58<andythenorth>what is the new name?
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03:01<V453000>andythenorth: ALL THE SHIT
03:04<V453000>idk, make a scheme, see how it works, name it after the functionality :P
03:07<andythenorth>FIRS Max
03:07<andythenorth>Super FIRS
03:07<andythenorth>FIRS FIRS
03:11<V453000>Original FIRS?
03:11<V453000>cause it is the first one?
03:11<V453000>no-port economy? XD
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03:15<andythenorth>it has ports
03:16<andythenorth>maybe it’s just Big Temperate
03:16<andythenorth>cos it was invented before economies, it has no real scheme
03:17<V453000>do the economies have a scheme? :P
03:17<andythenorth>not like you would call a scheme
03:17<andythenorth>they have a theme though
03:17<V453000>right :)
03:18<andythenorth>FIRS economy was ‘what industries does andythenorth want to draw'
03:18<V453000>fuck I should extend YETI, but BRIX and work and stuff ... ._.
03:20<V453000>esp since making nice maglev tracks is fucking hell
03:22<@Alberth>just use plain normal tracks :p
03:23<V453000>At the current state I still believe I will be able to figure it out
03:23<V453000>foolish, I know :P
03:24<@Alberth>dreams are good :)
03:25<andythenorth>just say ‘maglev is not supported'
03:25<andythenorth>and call that version 1.0
03:25<V453000>not the best for a base set attemptor XD
03:26<V453000>but yeah, it is just visual bullshit and tricks with eye illusions
03:26<V453000>if you add to it that you want it to look like something YOU imagined, bullshit is real
03:27<andythenorth>FIRS Overdrive?
03:27<andythenorth>FIRS Redux? :P
03:27<andythenorth>FIRS OMFG?
03:29<@Alberth>FIRS everything
03:29<@Alberth>FIRS forever
03:29<andythenorth>should I just remove it? :P
03:29<andythenorth>does it suit any particular climate?
03:30<andythenorth>that link not so working
03:30<@Alberth>lots of FIRS
03:31<@Alberth>it's a nice BB economy?
03:31<@Alberth>BB FIRS :p
03:31<andythenorth>FIRS Bee
03:32<andythenorth>General FIRS
03:32<@Alberth>too bad you cannot detect presence of a GS :p
03:32<andythenorth>it’s fun to play, but I have the regret that all people who make things have
03:32<andythenorth>‘what was I thinking?’
03:33<@Alberth>that's normal, your ideas change as time progresses
03:33<@Alberth>but you should just make a new better thing rather than trying to fix the past???
03:33<andythenorth>I want to make temperate and arctic economies equal to the tropic one
03:34<andythenorth>big but not too big
03:34<andythenorth>with some theme
03:34<andythenorth>I can’t figure out if FIRS economy = temperate
03:34<andythenorth>probably not
03:34<@Alberth>huh? it's your own parameter
03:35<andythenorth>I mean conceptually :)
03:35<andythenorth>should I make a temperate economy by cutting down FIRS?
03:35<andythenorth>or leave FIRS alone?
03:35<@Alberth>leave it, imho
03:36<@Alberth>some people like being busy, or are just idiots "bigger is better"
03:36<@Alberth>hmm "bigger is better" as name ? :p
03:36<@Alberth>start from the theme imho
03:36<@Alberth>farm theme?
03:37<@Alberth>with sprinkles of coal?
03:37<@Alberth>that's mostly UK, isn't it?
03:38<@Alberth>or most other temperate areas, perhaps
03:38<@Alberth>sort of "traditional"
03:39<@Alberth>less traditional, throw heavy industry out
03:39<@Alberth>heavy industry more arctic-ish??
03:43<andythenorth>FIRS = Keeping Busy? :P
03:44*andythenorth must to chores
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03:51<V453000>SIZE MATTERS
03:54<@Alberth>Busy Business
03:55<@Alberth>Big Business
03:55<V453000>Big Mess
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04:04<@Alberth>yep, but in a positive wording for 'mess' :)
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04:56<tt_johannes>for this railway network exporter I'm writing, I've now uploaded a design plan. If someone wants to read it:
05:01<@Alberth>people will want to see results, eg screenshot of minimap + image of generated dot thingie
05:01<@Alberth>some fewer people will want a patch :)
05:02<tt_johannes>Ok, I might upload results when it's implemented
05:02<@Alberth>perhaps start with a handwritten dot?
05:02<tt_johannes>What do you mean by patch? Error fix between openttd versions?
05:03<@Alberth>make a small map, add a simple line, write dot file manually
05:03<@Alberth>run the dot thingie, see how it looks
05:03<@Alberth>you can even post it as "this is what you'd get"
05:03<@Alberth>most people don't know dot at all
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05:04<@Alberth>"patch" is a source patch, ie a diff file between some nightly version rXXXXX and the same program, but with your changes
05:04<tt_johannes>ok, let's try...
05:05<tt_johannes>Hmm my idea was to simply include the stuff in the next version
05:05<tt_johannes>(when it's stable enough)
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05:05<@Alberth>even then we'd need a patch to review
05:06<@Alberth>I have no need for your output, but my fear is that you won't get such nice straight lines
05:06<@Alberth>and the station names will end up everywhere
05:07<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01, and it's not even afternoon yet
05:07<@Alberth>the question is thus, is that acceptable
05:08<tt_johannes>ok, that can be tested...
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05:29<tt_johannes>ok, a very basic example, the graph is not yet improved:
05:30<tt_johannes>I'm still working on making parallel lines non-bended
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05:32<@Alberth>that looks like typical dot output :)
05:33<tt_johannes>the station names are also sometimes covered by edges, but this can be improved
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05:36<@Alberth>given that you already have proper positions, it may be easier to just draw lines in 8 directions
05:37<@Alberth>ie dot selling point is layout of the graph, but you've already done that
05:38<@Alberth>or just straight lines, even
05:39<tt_johannes>what do you mean by "selling" in "dot selling point is layout"
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05:42<@Alberth>standard use of dot is "get a bunch of nodes without position" -> "bunch of nodes with position and reduced crossing lines"
05:43<Wolf01>meh 3 calls to the support service to re-enable the data connection on my sim, and I can only use the 3G (still better than my wired ADSL)
05:43<@Alberth>but your nodes already have a position, not sure about your lines, but crossing probably doesn't happen a lot
05:44<@Alberth>flying through the air is quicker than on the ground :p
05:44<tt_johannes>@Alberth: I think it can happen, but it's probably unavoidable
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05:49<tt_johannes>Alberth: is it ok to upload this PDF in the forum? Some admins don't want large files appended in forums...
05:50<@Alberth>no idea, but people dump loads of MB save games there
05:50<@Alberth>dot output that big?
05:50<@Alberth>it's just a few lines
05:51<tt_johannes>yes, but some ppl might not have the dot tool to view it
05:53<@Alberth>most people don't have that
05:53<@Alberth>but I meant the resulting pdf, as that's what dot produces, right?
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think there was a 6MB limit to the forum
05:54<tt_johannes>Alberth: yes
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>if your file is larger, you need to split it
05:54<@Alberth>I have seen bigger files iirc
05:55<tt_johannes>8,9K ;)
05:55<@Alberth>BRIX throws 10MB file onto the forum
05:56<@Alberth>tt_johannes: :O yeah, too big! :p
05:56<tt_johannes>is it possible to append in midst of the post, instead of appending at the bottom as "attachment"?
05:57<@Alberth>click "add inline" or so just below the typing area
05:57<@Alberth>it inserts at the cursor position then
05:58<Wolf01>just donated 5€ to tt-forums, do you need some for ottd too?
05:58<@Alberth>not sure pdf files get expanded, probably not
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06:01<@Alberth>donations are welcome, although we will survive for a while
06:02<Wolf01>ok, then ask me when you need it :P
06:05<@Alberth>like I will remember that :p
06:06<Wolf01>just leave a news in the blog like "we need money for trains"
06:11<Wolf01>I think we should donate to purchase a real train and fit it with some gaming positions, transport related decorations, and cakes, and travel around Europe
06:11<tt_johannes>ok, I clicked on "Add file" while editing in the forum post (in German: "Datei hinzufuegen"), but there was no option to add it "inline"
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06:14<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: it will appear after you've uploaded, and before you finish the post
06:16<tt_johannes>ah that was hidden
06:23*andythenorth hungry
06:23<Wolf01>nice, V453000, did you manage to hire some asian people to reduce the size of the circuits or it was just your ability? :D
06:37<andythenorth>Cat FIRS
06:37<andythenorth>FIRS Cat
06:37*andythenorth ponders names
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06:39<Wolf01>andythenorth, eat something, you are not yourself when you are hungry
06:40<andythenorth>eating cheese on toast
06:43<andythenorth>eh, in a GPL project, what licenses are viable for sounds?
06:43<V453000>Wolf01: ? :d
06:44<V453000>you mean the combinators?
06:44<Wolf01>the combinators
06:44<V453000>just shat pants with blender for a few days
06:44<V453000>then thought it is all done to discover that there are 9 fucking offset positions in the sprite which need to be defined individually
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>"The study, published in the Journal of Hospital Infection, examined the faces of 408 healthcare professional with and without facial hair, to reveal that not having a beard actually increased your chances threefold of having Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) on their cheeks than men with beards."
06:45<V453000>(2 wire connections for input, 2 for output, each of them has shadow placement, and the fucking blue LED activity indicator XD)
06:46<V453000>I believe it was like 112 offsets or something
06:46<Wolf01>eddi, that's why I'm growing a beard
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06:48<Wolf01>V, nice, it must have been a lot of work, I'm already pissed off with one offset :P
06:49<V453000>it was. :) But I managed to automate a lot of it to easily bug-fix
06:50<Wolf01>I think that was the reason why they invented the computers ;)
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>the computer is a solution to a problem that would never have existed without computers
06:51*andythenorth has to read sound effects licenses :(
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think there's no real problem as long as the license allows redistribution and altering
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe put a special note under the usual license about special terms for sound effects
06:52<andythenorth>yeah, the redistribution is the killer
06:52<andythenorth>so many royalty free licenses are borked
06:53<andythenorth>they usually have a clause ’like you may use this for any purpose, but you may not upload it to any electronic system'
06:53<Wolf01>I only pick from public domain or CC-0 assets, or I do it by myself (usually squares or other basic forms, or some notes on a sequencer)
06:55<andythenorth>maybe I should record some
06:55<andythenorth>I don’t have a decent mic though
07:03<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:10<frosch123>tt_johannes: unless you already started on openttd-graph-conv, i would recomment python instead of c++ with boost
07:11<@Rubidium>talking about train friends... any Indian train friends here that can help me creating an IRCTC account?
07:15<argoneus>oh god
07:15<argoneus>that irctc website
07:15<argoneus>seems like one of those legit websites 10 years ago
07:15<argoneus>flashing download ios app button
07:15<argoneus>moving text everywhere
07:16<andythenorth>fishing grounds are boring
07:17<@Rubidium>that's not the worst, the worst is needing an Indian mobile phone number for a one-time-token (you also get one via email and to activate the account you need to enter both)
07:17<argoneus>why would you go to india though
07:18<@Rubidium>to visit a friend doing a PhD there
07:18<argoneus>your friend has a phone surely, no?
07:19<@Rubidium>yeah, but a Swiss one...
07:19<argoneus>oh boy
07:19<@Rubidium>and it's quite a backwater there, so there's sporadic communication possible
07:21<argoneus>Rubidium: what about this
07:21<@Rubidium>waiting for 14 days on a reply (after having received two automated replies that they have received my request)
07:23<andythenorth>you will likely continue to wait
07:24<andythenorth>you are now becoming just another of the more than 1 billion people whose lives run to Standard Indian Time
07:24<andythenorth>India requires a different mindset
07:24<andythenorth>imagine Italy, raised to the power of 2
07:25<argoneus>and before you know it you'll be making websites for $1/hour
07:25<andythenorth>trivia: FIRS was invented in India
07:26<@Alberth>and no industries from india?
07:26<andythenorth>maybe one day
07:26<argoneus>add cafe
07:26<V453000>? XD
07:29<V453000>did that country invent anything apart from indian elephants?
07:30<V453000>yeah 18923427 years ago
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>the number 0, in particular
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07:31<argoneus>they are still inventing new ways to enslave people
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07:31<V453000>number 0 as in they ain't got shit? :D
07:31<V453000>but yeah, interesting :)
07:31<andythenorth>the thing on the internet
07:32<andythenorth>is you never know who’s wife is Indian
07:32<frosch123>my indian coworkes is unmarried
07:32<argoneus>andythenorth is your wife indian
07:33<frosch123>argoneus: are you implying that FIRS was invented during a dinner at mother-in-law's place
07:34<argoneus>"this dinner sure could use some paper production"
07:35<tt_johannes>frosch123: For what reason would you suggest python?
07:36<frosch123>for using pydot, though it only works with python2
07:36<tt_johannes>why would you suggest using pydot? :p
07:36<frosch123>allows you to read and write dot files, and directly invoke the dot library
07:37<tt_johannes>boost::graph can do this to, afaik
07:37<frosch123>well, use the one you are more comfortable with then :)
07:38<tt_johannes>I just thought you were worrying about portability (Windows)
07:38<frosch123>i don't care about windows :p
07:39<tt_johannes>very good :P
07:48<tt_johannes>does someone know what the order types OT_LOADING and OT_CONDITIONAL could mean?
07:48<tt_johannes>they are types describing orders in order lists
07:48<frosch123>OT_LOADING does not appear in order lists
07:49<frosch123>it's merely the status of trains while loading, and not following a specfici order
07:49<tt_johannes>ah ok
07:49<frosch123> <- about the other one
07:50<tt_johannes>lol another feature I never heard of...
07:52<andythenorth>cos nobody uses it :P
07:52<andythenorth>conditional orders are only for the sick
07:52<V453000>no they are perfectly fine :)
07:52<frosch123>ottd is only for the sick
07:53<andythenorth>what use its it sending a train around in circles to partially load it?
07:53<andythenorth>makes no sense :P
07:53<tt_johannes>can OT_LEAVESTATION appear in an orderlist?
07:53<V453000>andythenorth: stuff like refit :P
07:53<V453000>trains can load, say, 50% so you can let them put the cargo back in the station and do other task instead
07:53<V453000>etc etc
07:54<V453000>also, openttd is for the sick, but is polluted by train porn nerds :P
07:55<andythenorth>trains only ever need 2 orders
07:55<andythenorth>pickup, drop off
07:55<andythenorth>and one track per train
07:56<frosch123>ships are better
07:56<frosch123>no "one ship per sea"
07:57<andythenorth>FIRS 2000?
07:57<andythenorth>FIRS Beyond the Thunderdome?
07:57<andythenorth>Total FIRS?
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS 9001?
08:01<argoneus>it's over 8600 xD
08:01<frosch123>FIRS over 9000 ?
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>it looks at you with a red eye
08:02<argoneus>is there any openttd fanfic
08:03<andythenorth>right, I’m bored
08:03<andythenorth>suggest cargos that suit sub-tropic, preferably ones found in West Africa irl
08:03<argoneus>andythenorth come play a game with me
08:03<frosch123>argoneus: there is the screenshot trhead
08:03<argoneus>andythenorth: ivory is the obvious answer
08:03<andythenorth>^^ cos some of those overlap too much with FIRS
08:03<frosch123>but i would not recomment looking at it
08:03<andythenorth>sometimes screenies are nice
08:03<andythenorth>at least several times a year
08:04<andythenorth>ivory more east african
08:04<argoneus>im too busy reading up about lvalues and rvalues
08:04<argoneus>andythenorth: what
08:04<argoneus>ivory coast is in the west
08:04<andythenorth>so much bloody fish
08:05<andythenorth>mail, pax, coal, oil, fish, food, alcohol, building materials seem inevitable
08:05<frosch123>you are living on an island
08:05<frosch123>i am perfectly fine without any fish
08:05<argoneus>west africa is boring
08:05<argoneus>do caribbean
08:05<argoneus>go full cuban drug dealers
08:06<argoneus>heroine trains
08:06<andythenorth>yep, I am definitely going to let my kids play that economy
08:06<andythenorth>fuel as a cargo?
08:07<andythenorth>so that coal and petrol can be dropped?
08:07<@Alberth>not coal would be nice for a change :)
08:07<frosch123>colonization had cotton->cloth, suggar->rum, tobacco -> zigars, fur -> coat, iron ore -> tools
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think that would work
08:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: because...?
08:08<andythenorth>it’s weird?
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people think "fuel" and "petrol" are the same thing, they wouldn't consider coal
08:08<andythenorth>does it matter?
08:08<andythenorth>the accepting industries for coal are cement kiln and power station
08:08<andythenorth>they can burn anything combustible with enough energy content
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can remove coal
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't merge it into fuel
08:09<andythenorth>I can just import fuel
08:09<andythenorth>and not worry what it is
08:09<andythenorth>leave it to player?
08:09<andythenorth>bulk, liquid :P
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>no. fuel is always liquid
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>don't overcomplicate things
08:10<andythenorth>in UK fuel definitely includes coal, coke, logs
08:10<andythenorth>translation challenges
08:11<frosch123>in F i usually run the diesel trains with wood
08:11<andythenorth>fossil fuel?
08:11*andythenorth wonders
08:11<andythenorth>seems I only have coal because I wanted cement kiln
08:11<andythenorth>and I only have petrol to make ENSP from
08:15<argoneus>any c++ magicians have a clue what int& foo(); does?
08:15<argoneus>when used inside main or another function, that is
08:15<argoneus>the () is confusing me
08:15<frosch123>it's an external function declaration
08:16<frosch123>don't do that inside functions
08:16<frosch123>it's probably an example for how ambiguous c syntax is
08:16<argoneus>at the bottom of the page, the lvalues section
08:16<argoneus>i dont get what this does
08:17<argoneus>never seen that kind of syntax before
08:17<frosch123>it is a function declaration
08:18<argoneus>you can declare functions in functions?
08:18<argoneus>then again it doesn't specify scope
08:18<frosch123> <- it's the same
08:19<argoneus>okay this will take a while to wrap my head around
08:19<tt_johannes>wouldn't it be good if you want to say: only that one function should see the declaration?
08:19<frosch123>argoneus: it's a prime example why c/c++ have a terrible syntax :)
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08:22<frosch123>tt_johannes: i only mean the syntax, it gets worse if "foo" is a class
08:23<andythenorth>22 overlapping cargos between FIRS and IAHC
08:23<andythenorth>only 9 unique per economy
08:23<andythenorth>how boring
08:23<andythenorth>I could have counted that on my fingers
08:23<andythenorth>but I wrote a python script :P
08:23<frosch123>then "T foo();" is a function prototype, but "T foo;" and "T foo(123)" are constructor calls
08:24<andythenorth>22 Overlapping Alcohol, Building Materials, Chemicals, Clay, Coal, Engineering Supplies, Farm Supplies, Fish, Food, Fruit, Goods, Iron Ore, Livestock, Mail, Manufacturing Supplies, Oil, Passengers, Petrol, Sand, Stone, Timber, Wood
08:24<argoneus>and since C++11
08:24<argoneus>T foo{};
08:24<frosch123>andythenorth: it depends on whether you trust more in your programming or your counting abilities
08:25<andythenorth>9 Unique to IAHC Coffee, Copper, Copper Ore, Diamonds, Edible Oil, Maize, Phosphate, Rubber, Vehicles
08:25*andythenorth ponders importing cement cargo
08:25<andythenorth>and having a concrete plant
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>how does that make sense?
08:27<tt_johannes>planetmaker: '"T foo();" is a function prototype' -> sure?
08:27<tt_johannes>I thought a function can not have 2 type specifiers, except for compound specifiers like "unsigned int"
08:28<andythenorth>cement comes from kilns in clinker form, or ground and bagged
08:29<andythenorth>it’s batched in concrete plants, for casting into blocks and beams, or transported via truck to building sites for pouring
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i mean, you seem to be adding things for the sake of adding things, not because they have a reason to be there.
08:29<andythenorth>there are reasons for any of the cargos? o_O
08:29<andythenorth>it’s all arbitrary
08:29<andythenorth>tell me some reasons, it might help :P
08:30<argoneus>tt_johannes: there's only one type specifier
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>"throw stuff together, then stirr it" is almost never resulting in a good design.
08:31<tt_johannes>planetmaker: T + foo -> 2
08:31<andythenorth>eh? design is the progressive removal of all the excess things that don’t fit
08:31<argoneus>foo isn't a type
08:31<argoneus>it's a name
08:31<andythenorth>if you don’t have an excess, you can’t design
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08:32<tt_johannes>no, foo is class :P
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: if "foo" is a class, then "foo" is also the constructor of that class. which one is meant depends on context
08:32<argoneus>"if foo is a class"
08:32<argoneus>i blind
08:32<argoneus>no idea what T foo() does if foo is a class
08:33<tt_johannes>imo it's illegal
08:33<argoneus>i dont wanna go to jail over c++
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know C++ well enough to decide this
08:33<andythenorth>oil wells produce gas also, fuel the cement plant on gas?
08:33<andythenorth>or directly on oil?
08:34<tt_johannes>lol planetmaker I think you're right
08:34<Flygon>Fuel it on Sugar for all I care :D
08:34<tt_johannes>warning: empty parentheses interpreted as a function declaration [-Wvexing-parse] T foo();
08:34<argoneus>std::move doesn't even move anything
08:35<argoneus>all it does is cast an argument to a rvalue
08:35<argoneus>fucking C++ holy shit
08:35<tt_johannes>if foo is a class, then this simply makes foo invisible and declares a new function "foo"
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08:37<frosch123>tt_johannes: my name is not planetmaker
08:38<tt_johannes>oh sry!
08:39<frosch123>and yes, if you have a class "foo", then "foo()" is fine in an intializer list, but fails for variable declarion
08:39<andythenorth>petrol is a stupid cargo
08:39*andythenorth wonders why it was changed from fuel oil
08:39<andythenorth>lost in the mists of time
08:39<sim-al2>Fuel oil tends to refer to different distilates though
08:39<frosch123>"foo my_var();" will report a linker error, that "my_var" is not declared
08:40<andythenorth>irl yes
08:40<andythenorth>but conceptually, it’s all just stuff you explode in internal combustion engines, or burn in furnaces
08:41<andythenorth>bang, fizz, pop
08:41<sim-al2>At OpenTTD level I suppose, but the heavy oils used in early oil fired ships later became feedstock for the plastics industry
08:43<andythenorth>maybe we decided ‘Fuel Oil’ was just ugly
08:43<andythenorth>and it was delivered to petrol stations, so looked weird
08:43<sim-al2>I wonder how well it actually translates too
08:45<tt_johannes>What cargo type has a vehicle if it can be refitted? Weren't these types different from the default cargo types?
08:45<sim-al2>English seems to have so many different words for the various oil fractions, I wonder how many other languages do that too...
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>you can define a specific type, or "use the first available"
08:46<andythenorth>can ‘petrol’ be improved? :P
08:46*andythenorth wonders
08:47<andythenorth>it looks stupid delivered to a power station, for example
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think "fuel oil" is a perfectly valid name.
08:47*andythenorth wonders why it was changed
08:47<andythenorth>maybe repo knows :P
08:47<sim-al2>We Americans call it gasoline :D. Otherwise yeah, fuel oil might be better if it can be delivered to many different places
08:48<tt_johannes>you can not refit passenger cargo?
08:48<andythenorth>@seen foobar
08:48<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen foobar.
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: you can refit all cargos
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: it's entirely up to the vehicle NewGRF
08:49<andythenorth>I actually just want FUEL
08:49<andythenorth>which is deprecated in cargo labels wiki
08:49<andythenorth>which I can’t edit
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it probably overlaps with other "refined oil" types
08:50<andythenorth>yes it does
08:50<sim-al2>That could work, it just seems a bit ambigious
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>so just use those. what you call it in your strings is up to you.
08:51<andythenorth>well RFPR is Chemicals in FIRS
08:51<andythenorth>because reasons
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>you have crazy legacy issues
08:53<andythenorth>remember that we were trying to be compatible with TTDP?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>coating your legacy issues with another layer of future legacy issues is probably not a good solution
08:53<andythenorth>and also ECS?
08:53<andythenorth>for some time there was a schema where we tried to maintain some parity with ECS
08:53<andythenorth>2008 was a long time ago :P
08:54<andythenorth>ha, even Fuel Oil is remarkably subdivided and complex :P
08:55<sim-al2>Overly so, it seems, bunker fuel (ship fuel these days) has several grades, but some are obselote now with emissions standards
08:56<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: so I can not refit the default passenger vehicle, but might refit a NEWGRF passenger vehicle into a coal vehicle?
08:56<andythenorth>I just want something that comes in a tank and can be burnt :P
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: most sets offer refit to "tourists" if that cargo is available
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: refitting between passengers and mail may be available for some vehicle heads
08:56<@Alberth>fuel oil is just that, andy?
08:57<andythenorth>ha probably
08:57<@Alberth>let translators worry about proper names for cargoes :p
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: but yes, a newgrf could allow refitting from passengers to coal
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: for example ships that just say "refittable to all cargos"
08:58<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: but why has the Vehicle class a cargo type then if the cargo type might change?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: every vehicle has a cargo type it can currently carry.
09:00<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: ok, but OrderList has a vehicle chain, so this looks like each vehicle has a fixed cargo type
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: i have no clue what you're trying to achieve
09:01<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: hang on, I need to think more about it...
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: every vehicle can load exactly one cargo type at any one specific moment. this cargo type can be changed by refitting
09:03<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: Looking at an OrderList, how do you know what vehicles will be used between stations A and B?
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: in the worst case, you can't...
09:03<andythenorth>yeah ok, Fuel wouldn’t work
09:03<andythenorth>can’t give it in both litres / tonnes
09:03<andythenorth>so eh
09:04<andythenorth>joules? :P
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wood is generally sold in m^3
09:04*andythenorth wonders about coal
09:04<andythenorth>tonnes, or by volume?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>and two different types of m^3, depending on whether it's a pile or a stack
09:05<andythenorth>solid fuel
09:05<andythenorth>liquid fuel
09:05<andythenorth>might be valid cargos
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>that still doesn't make a lot of sense
09:06*andythenorth wonders what the problem is
09:06<andythenorth>1. I don’t want petrol to be very important cargo in this economy, but petrol / diesel is needed somewhat
09:07<andythenorth>2. I need a source of fuel for a cement kiln
09:07<andythenorth>3. I want to reduce overlap between FIRS and this IAHC economy
09:11<andythenorth>petrol it is then
09:11<andythenorth>do the simplest thing, no legacy costs right now
09:12<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: If one could not know the vehicles, then how should the game know it?
09:12<frosch123>tt_johannes: when using refit orders AND conditional orders, the vehicle behaviour is not predictable
09:12<tt_johannes>frosch123: but it's still predictable on exit of every non-conditional station?
09:13<frosch123>actually, that AND is not true
09:13<andythenorth>translators will hate me :P
09:13<frosch123>you can find cases for each
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>no, it could be autoreplaced halfway through, or manually skipped, or whatever
09:13<andythenorth>I renamed Petrol to Petroleum Fuels
09:13<andythenorth>which in EN_UK makes good sense
09:13<andythenorth>but probably nowhere else
09:13<frosch123>tt_johannes: a refit order can refit to the most waiting cargotype at a station
09:13<frosch123>you only know that when arriving that the station
09:13<frosch123>you cannot tell in advance
09:14<frosch123>a conditional order can skip a station for whatever reasons, you cannnot tell in advance
09:14<@Alberth>Petrol sounds more American to me
09:14<andythenorth>nah, Gasoline in US :)
09:14<andythenorth>petrol means almost nothing there
09:14<@Alberth>ah, indeed
09:15<frosch123>tt_johannes: focus on the usual cases :) not on extreme cases :)
09:15<tt_johannes>frosch123: ok, let's assume a game has no refitting at all, but still conditionals, are the vehicles known on exit of any non-conditional-station?
09:15<@Alberth>so you need a "base language with translator hints" language, to be translated to en_uk? :)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>here, "petroleum" means the ancient way people lighted lamps and stuff. it is not used in modern language
09:15<frosch123>tt_johannes: play a game?
09:16<tt_johannes>frosch123: with focus you mean: ignore refitting?
09:16<tt_johannes>frosch123: you mean so you can show me an example?
09:16<frosch123>tt_johannes: you seem to want to draw edges in the graph per cargo
09:16<andythenorth>‘petroleum’ is slightly archaic and unused in common speech in UK, but widely used in official context, and in fuel company names
09:16<frosch123>but what does that even mean for trains which transport different cargos?
09:16<frosch123>or which switch cargos per season
09:17<tt_johannes>it does mean that a train line should be split at such stations, imo
09:17<frosch123>tt_johannes: no, if you want to support conditional orders, you should try them out
09:17<andythenorth>ha ha it’s so clunky in game ‘petroleum fuels’
09:17*andythenorth likes it
09:17<frosch123>if you don't use them in your games, don't bother supporting them
09:19<andythenorth>so what are the German translations of Petrol / Petroleum Fuel?
09:19<andythenorth>out of interest
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm not sure. potentially "Dieselöl"
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09:21<frosch123>andythenorth: "Petrolium" is used in fancy oil lamps, "Benzin"/"Diesel" are used in cars, "Clerosin" is used in planes
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: petrol/gasoline would be "Benzin"
09:21<frosch123>"Zweitaktergemisch" is used in mopeds
09:21<frosch123>"Heizol" is used for heating
09:22<frosch123>"Schiffsdiesel" is used in ships
09:22<andythenorth>well, I’ll leave translators with that problem :P
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>there's generally more variation in what it's used for than what's in it
09:22<frosch123>"Super Benzin" is used in more modern cars
09:23<andythenorth>sea is annoying
09:23<frosch123>andythenorth: i have no idea what "petrol" means in english :p
09:23<andythenorth>frosch123: leaded or unleaded 2* or 4* motor spirit
09:23*andythenorth has no idea what the chemistry is :P
09:24<andythenorth>presumably equivalent of benzin in DE
09:24<frosch123>then it is "verbleites" or "unverbleites" "benzin"
09:24<andythenorth>diesel is definitely not petrol, as some vehicle owners find out at cost
09:24<frosch123>classified by amount of lead, octane and other stuff
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>they haven't sold leaded fuel in like 20 years
09:24<andythenorth>but I am old enough to remember it
09:25<andythenorth>meanwhile, the sea needs more industries building on it
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>and they stopped selling "Benzin" a few years ago, it's all "Super" nowadays
09:25<andythenorth>actually, I have more than enough ships in my game already, due to high water
09:25<andythenorth>what purpose are water industries, other than diversity
09:26*andythenorth looking for reasons to remove fishing chain in IAHC economy
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>we have enough water industries...
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can have shore industries
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09:26<andythenorth>I am wondering about something like salt pan, or sand mining
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>fishing ports that provide fish, food processors which accept fish
09:27<andythenorth>plausible yes, but not suiting this economy so much
09:27<andythenorth>might provide food directly from a shoreline fishery
09:28<andythenorth>small open boats, not the kind operated by your average transport tycoon
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>fishing village
09:29<andythenorth>accepts petroleum fuel? o_O
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>like, as a booster cargo?
09:30<andythenorth>it could work like the ports
09:30<andythenorth>base production, boosted by deliveries of x, y, z
09:34<andythenorth>‘Fruit’ is a long-standing composite cargo
09:34<andythenorth>which could maybe be split out a bit more in this economy?
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09:36<andythenorth>Cassava is a major staple crop
09:37<andythenorth>it’s not even fruit, it’s a tuber
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of it
09:39<Oswaldi>how can i start a Server in Coop ?
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>oh, yes, "Manjok" i heard before. but never really understood what it is
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>Oswaldi: just let all people join the same company?
09:40<Oswaldi>what you mean ?
09:40<andythenorth>wow, 38 million tons / year of yams grown in Nigeria
09:40<Oswaldi>We Play but we cant see us :(
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>Oswaldi: well, what do you mean?
09:42<@Alberth>see where?
09:43<Oswaldi>me and friends will play Gta5 Coop, we are on the airport but i cant see them and they cant see me
09:44<@Alberth>why do you ask at #openttd?
09:44<Oswaldi>a men send me this und say ask there
09:44<andythenorth>for GTA?
09:44<@Alberth>I mean GtaX != OpenTTD
09:44<Oswaldi>yes :D
09:45<Oswaldi>GtaX ?
09:45<@Alberth>with X some random digit, I don't care which one
09:45<Oswaldi>also you cant help me ?
09:45<@Alberth>I don't know the game at all
09:46<Oswaldi>shit :(
09:46<@Alberth>it usually works better if you ask at a place that is about the game you want to ask about :)
09:47<Oswaldi>:D yes, ok thx
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09:47<^Spike^>Alberth see devzone.... :)
10:03<andythenorth>yam truck
10:05<andythenorth>cassava truck
10:05<andythenorth>german import? or dutch?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>MAN is german
10:13<andythenorth>does the game work without mail cargo? o_O
10:18<andythenorth>Gold or a new Precious Metals cargo?
10:18<andythenorth>Precious Metals can stand for also Cobalt, Coltan, etc
10:18<andythenorth>and arguably be produced in larger quantities
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10:21<andythenorth>wikipedia says ‘no'
10:41<@Rubidium>you better mine iridium, there's a really iridium (300x above normal) rich layer almost everywhere around the globe
10:43<andythenorth>what is the cargo unit? :P
10:44<andythenorth>"The demand for iridium surged from 2.5 tonnes in 2009 to 10.4 tonnes in 2010"
10:44<andythenorth>many of these rare metals are a side product of copper chain, which I have in this economy
10:47<andythenorth>bags of iridium?
10:47<andythenorth>really small bags?
10:47<supermop>pen nibs
10:47<supermop>2% of prototype kilograms
10:48<supermop>along with platinum and a tiny bit of palladium
10:52<andythenorth>is kg the appropriate cargo unit? o_O
10:54<@Rubidium>andythenorth: nope
10:54<@Rubidium> <- weight has to be a multiple of 1/16th of a ton
10:55<andythenorth>bags? bars?
10:58<andythenorth>I have room for 2 more cargos
10:58<andythenorth>irridium? Or some silly composite of rare metals?
11:05<@Alberth>one called "future", and one called "expansion" ?
11:06<andythenorth>“Deliver 38 crates of Expansion”
11:26<@Alberth>and get 1 bottle of future?
11:28<andythenorth>nuts are and aren’t fruit, right?
11:29*andythenorth adds a nuts cargo
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11:29<andythenorth>which will also include peanuts
11:29<andythenorth>which are’t nuts
11:29<andythenorth>aren’t *
11:29<andythenorth>this is all nuts
11:30<@Alberth>play with nuts train set, and you'll get nice train cargoes? :)
11:30<andythenorth>maybe :
11:31<tt_johannes>can one know (in the sources) whether the order type of a conditional order (OT_CONDITIONAL) is a station or a depot?
11:31<@Alberth>probably the destination?
11:32<tt_johannes>hmm the destination is a DestinationID, one could cast it to both StationID and DepotID ?
11:33<tt_johannes>but then, I'd need to look up both in the depot and the station pool
11:34<@Alberth>no idea, tried grepping for some code that handles the case?
11:34<tt_johannes>already on it...
11:34<@Alberth>ie "ag depot" or "indepot" or "isdepot" or so
11:34<andythenorth>just too tempting to add a nuts cargo
11:35<andythenorth>now, if I can also find ways to add yeti and brix cargos :P
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11:37<frosch123>tt_johannes: you can answer the question by trying in-game
11:37<frosch123>hint: a conditional order has neither a station nor a depot
11:38<tt_johannes>oh I see it!
11:41<andythenorth>if I add Lego cargo (plastic interlocking construction toy)
11:41<andythenorth>I can use BRIX
11:41<andythenorth>and YETI is already a cargo
11:42<frosch123>andythenorth: it may be time to turn newgrfs into cargos themself
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11:43<andythenorth>HEQS instead of ENSP?
11:43<andythenorth>FIRS inside FIRS?
11:43<frosch123>town demands 100 tons of FIRS and YETI, and supplies HEQS and FISH
11:43<frosch123>HEQS are processed into DOOM, which can be boosted using BRIX
11:44<frosch123>i guess you are not that far away from 32 cargos :p
11:44<andythenorth>Newgrf economy?
11:44<andythenorth>industry: V453000
11:44<andythenorth>accepts? dunno
11:44<andythenorth>produces: wtf
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11:49<andythenorth>because it’s easy?
11:49<andythenorth>or rare metals, because eh, dunno?
11:50<@Alberth>hmm, "secret plans" would be a nice cargo :p
11:51<@Alberth>make an industry with rare transport requirements :p
11:51<andythenorth>‘commercial secrets'
11:51<@Alberth>uranium, secret plans
11:52<andythenorth>smuggling economy
11:52<@Alberth>yeah, it goes that way very soon
11:52<andythenorth>I think there’s something in it
11:52<andythenorth>but the quantities would be low :P
11:53<@Alberth>money printing presses
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11:58<@Alberth>the challenge is how to make the game interesting
11:59<andythenorth>also, unless custom vehicle grfs are provided
11:59<andythenorth>the quantities transported mismatch the vehicles
11:59<andythenorth>impedance mismatch :)
11:59<andythenorth>be ok for planes and RVs
12:02<@Alberth>just load any with a long time in the time table?
12:05*andythenorth does gold
12:05<andythenorth>IRL the main source of it is the part of Africa I’m basing the economy in
12:05<andythenorth>so eh
12:05<@Alberth>can't get around it :p
12:06<andythenorth>gold and diamonds in same economy?
12:09<tt_johannes>hmm a question: if your city would have a railway route network where there is one railway line where some trains drive A->B->C->D, and others drive A->D->C->B, would you think that this would confuse many people?
12:09<tt_johannes>in other words: would you suggest that they mark these as two different lines?
12:10<tt_johannes>imagine you are a bit tired, enter a train at A and want to got to B, but you took the wrong train and then you have to travel the long way via C and D...
12:14<@Alberth>I never consider the passengers point of view, but then again, I am not a railway modeler, trying to replicate some real world part
12:16<@Alberth>I just look at flow and try to fix points where loads of cargo gets stuck
12:17<tt_johannes>ok, but if you *were* passenger, what would you say?
12:18<andythenorth>these are just anti-clockwise and clockwise no?
12:18<andythenorth>tube lines have this
12:18<@Alberth>but not round
12:18<andythenorth>it’s two directions
12:18<tt_johannes>yes, though A is outside the circle in this case
12:18<@Alberth>that would be A -> B -> C -> D -> A
12:18<tt_johannes>yes, I actually meant that :-)
12:19<@Alberth>2 circles is less confusing probably
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12:20<@Alberth>and if you don't have to pay by distance traveled, it doesn't really matter
12:20<tt_johannes>well if you like long train travels, it's ok :D
12:22<@Alberth>my train travels are always long :p
12:22<@Alberth>around 4 hours or so
12:23<tt_johannes>do you enjoy them, still?
12:23<@Alberth>oh, plenty to see outside :)
12:24<@Alberth>most people seem hooked to their phone though :)
12:34<argoneus>Alberth: there's a lot of stuff on a phone these days
12:35<@Alberth>there is, but it's not going anywhere :p
12:35<argoneus>neither is the scenery outside the train :P
12:35<@Alberth>people seem afraid to miss things :p
12:35<@Alberth>argoneus: it's not just in the train, it's everywhere
12:36<argoneus>I usually sleep in public transport
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12:52<@Rubidium>Alberth: you must be going abroad if it's 4 hours ;)
12:53<Wolf01>maybe he runs around the country for fun
12:54<@Alberth>sometimes you have to wait at a station :p
12:54<@Alberth>but tbh, I never check the time
12:54<@Alberth>so I don't even know how long I travel, nor when each train goes
12:55<@Alberth>Wolf01: no circular transport available :(
12:55<@Alberth>one way in, one way out :p
12:56<Wolf01>we have to wait for the hyperloop
12:57<Wolf01>when I need to go to Milan I have to wait 30-45 minutes at Venice-Mestre too, so the trip takes about 3.5-4 hours for 350Km
12:58<@Rubidium>you think that that waiting is significantly reduced with hyperloop?
12:58<Wolf01>no, but at least it should be circular
12:59<@Rubidium>because with eurostar you need to be checked in 30-45 minutes before departure, so I'd expect the same with that line
12:59<@Rubidium>and why would hyperloop be circular?
13:00<Wolf01>because of the loop, but it was meant to be built around cities and not point to point
13:01<@Rubidium>except that it's proposed for Los Angeles - San Francisco mostly along one particular highway, not really loopy to me
13:04<andythenorth>cargo label for manganese?
13:04<@Rubidium>is it an ore?
13:06<@Rubidium>or even MnOR
13:07<@Rubidium>or... what about Mn02 ;)
13:07<andythenorth>numbers allowed? o_O
13:07<+glx>they are chars
13:08<@Rubidium>technically all ASCII characters are allowed (by the GRF specs)
13:09<@Rubidium>as cargo labels are nothing more than a 32 bit integer to OpenTTD / TTDPatch
13:09<andythenorth>ha of course :)
13:09<andythenorth>well pick one then :P
13:09<andythenorth>I can’t update the newgrf wiki anyway
13:09<andythenorth>and I don’t care as long as it’s unique
13:11<andythenorth>can’t subscript the 2 :P
13:13<andythenorth>can’t actually figure out if it’s manganese or manganese ore when transported
13:15<andythenorth>seems to be manganese
13:38<TrueBrain>oeh, can you use \0\0\0\0 too? :D
13:38<TrueBrain>or aa\8\8? :D
13:40<+glx>still valid 32bit integers
13:41<TrueBrain>indeed; that is why I am suggesting them
13:41<@Alberth>cb\ra :)
13:42<TrueBrain>hmm ... how would >=0x80 be presented in the game .. can you do UTF-8? :D
13:42<@Alberth>probably :p
13:44<andythenorth>meh to cobalt
13:44*andythenorth has been researching
13:44<andythenorth>for game purposes, it’s copper, even if quite different irl
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27502 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2016-01-23 19:45:37 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek: 54 changes by Ferrum
13:46<frosch123>andythenorth: make a fusion economy
13:47<andythenorth>everything merges?
13:47<andythenorth>to single output?
13:47<frosch123> <- you see the cargo chains in the middle of the page
13:47<frosch123>18 cargos
13:47<frosch123>that's reasonably balanced
13:47<andythenorth>oh that one :)
13:48<frosch123>not sure how to represent the decay stuff
13:48<andythenorth>I believe I’ve seen that mechanic elsewhere :P
13:48<TrueBrain>just 1 cargo that represents everything!
13:49<frosch123>make an office economy
13:50<frosch123>beans + water -> coffee -> programmer -> code
13:50<frosch123>paper -> printer
13:50<frosch123>printer -> paperbin
13:50<andythenorth>does it match the vehicle capacities?
13:50<frosch123>parking ground -> usb sticks -> computer -> malware
13:50<@Alberth>printer -> desk -> paperbin
13:51<andythenorth>overscale it, like Micro Machines racing
13:51<frosch123>underwear -> ??? -> profit
13:51<@Alberth>haha :)
13:56<TrueBrain>a cargo ??? :D
13:57<TrueBrain>that is awesome :)
14:10<supermop>finally some real snow here
14:10<supermop>andythenorth: colbalt > pretty depression era glasswares
14:10<andythenorth>‘chemicals’ :)
14:12<supermop>18 locomotive manganese train...?
14:20<V453000>nice game frosch123 , pressing random arrows kind of works XD
14:23<frosch123>i got it from this channel
14:23<frosch123>probably from eddi or ln, or wally
14:30<andythenorth>meh, so close
14:30<andythenorth>but no cigar
14:30*andythenorth needs another source of ENSP
14:31<V453000>for which economy?
14:33*andythenorth finds link
14:33<andythenorth>or I need to increase probability of Supply Yards
14:33<andythenorth>same effect
14:35<V453000>I haven't seen this one yet XD
14:35<andythenorth>replaces Heart of Darkness
14:35<andythenorth>which was crap
14:35<andythenorth>for reasons
14:35<andythenorth>but had some useful learning
14:36<V453000>it looks very good to me
14:36<V453000>even farms being able to produce farm supplies
14:36<V453000>the fuck is cassava btw
14:36<V453000>nuts cargo rules
14:36<andythenorth>I’ve never had it, but Nigeria grows 100 million tons of cassava every year :P
14:36<andythenorth>so that’s a few trains
14:37<V453000>I have no clue what that is but ok XD
14:38<andythenorth>it’s all just ‘stuff’ eh?
14:38<V453000>yeah 'tever
14:38<andythenorth>perhaps import explosives o_O
14:38<andythenorth>-> supply yard
14:38<supermop>sure you can find it somewhere in EU
14:39<V453000>from the scheme I really like the economy
14:39<V453000>building materials feel pointless
14:40<andythenorth>I wondered
14:40<andythenorth>I am trying to reduce overlap with FIRS
14:40<andythenorth>BDMT overlaps...
14:42<V453000>the point is, why would you invest stuff into making BDMT if it can't reach ENSP by itself
14:42<V453000>or is there some connection I miss?
14:43<andythenorth>no connection
14:43<andythenorth>BDMT just goes to towns, or bulk terminal
14:43<V453000>ah manufacturing supplies can come out of it
14:43<V453000>yeah but going to towns without towns having some real benefits from it, has no point
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14:44<V453000>sure, it is cute and awesome to have such cargoes, but once players get familiar with the set, they need to have mechanics, not just chain of "discovering stuff
14:44<andythenorth>goods, same problem?
14:45<V453000>goods go to supply yard, that is perfectly fine
14:45<V453000>nobody will probably send them to pertol station though
14:46<andythenorth>they will if Busy Bee
14:46<andythenorth>imho, playing any big FIRS economy without Busy Bee is futile
14:46<andythenorth>50% of the cargos / industries are pointless
14:46<V453000>do not rely on scripts tbh
14:46<V453000>the grf should be stand-alone good
14:47<V453000>scripts can improve it, but it should work well alone
14:47<andythenorth>can’t be done with 30 cargos, 30 industries
14:47<V453000>99% people do not use FIRS with bee
14:48<andythenorth>they are not me
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14:48<frosch123>andythenorth: in africa 17% of cassava and 47% in southamerica is used to feed animals
14:48<V453000>for me the aim is to make a good product first, and me enjoying it second ... but in that order :)
14:49<frosch123>so, if you want southamerica instead of africa, you should deliver it to the farm producing lifestock
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14:50<argoneus>frosch123 why is C++ so complicated
14:51<argoneus>why you do this to me ;_;
14:51<frosch123>because c++ is based on c
14:51<argoneus>but C is the simplest language there is
14:51<frosch123>and c has a terrible history
14:51<argoneus>it doesn't do any weird things because reasons and it's almost 1:1 bytecode
14:51<andythenorth>frosch123: feed yard industry? o_O
14:52<andythenorth>cassava has to be processed iirc, it’s got cyanide in it
14:52<argoneus>in C++ I have to worry if I'm passing a lvalue or a rvalue
14:52<frosch123>argoneus: there are dozen of other languages which are compiled
14:52<argoneus>what I mean is C doesn't have any high level stdlib black boxes
14:52<argoneus>it's a very simple language with very simple operations
14:53<frosch123>but unix used c, and unix did shared libraries, and that resulted in many libraries for c, which snowballed to make a terrible language popular
14:53<argoneus>C++ seems like it's the best language around if you are proficient with it
14:53<argoneus>you can shoot yourself in the leg in 20 different ways
14:53<frosch123>argoneus: you should distinguish between syntax, compiled/interpreted and libraries
14:54<argoneus>the syntax is not an issue
14:54<argoneus>I mean the logic
14:54<argoneus>like std::move is a good example
14:54<frosch123>C/C++ are the languages with probably the worst syntax there is
14:54<argoneus>of something I have no idea how or why it works
14:54<frosch123>only competing with csh and maybe perl
14:54<argoneus>which langs have good syntax in your eyes?
14:54<argoneus>python syntax is based on C
14:55<frosch123>compiled/interpreted can be done with about any language
14:55<frosch123>libraries are the only strength of C
14:55<supermop>damn it andythenorth now i've been wasting time reading about historical pigment compounds
14:55<frosch123>probably even beating c++
14:55<frosch123>argoneus: very wrong
14:55<frosch123>python has none of the weaknesses that c has
14:56<supermop>frosch123: python also has a cooler name
14:56<argoneus>frosch123: syntax
14:56<argoneus>python syntax is the classic imperative procedural language syntax
14:56<argoneus>except you use tab instead of {}
14:57<frosch123>argoneus: and why the hell do you consider "c" as the definition of procedural languages?
14:58<frosch123>can you even guess how many procedural languages there were before/after/parallel to c?
14:58<argoneus>well, fortran, cobol, lisp nor basic have similar syntax
14:58<argoneus>pascal does and pascal was around the same time as C I guess
14:58<frosch123>sorry, but "something is based on c because it is procedural" is about the stupidest thing i heard today
14:58<andythenorth>argoneus: just switch to haskell?
14:58<andythenorth>it’s where it’s at
14:58<argoneus>haven't studied history of this much, but "C-like syntax" is a term
14:59<andythenorth>V453000: controversial idea: builders yard isn’t black hole, but produces ENSP
14:59<andythenorth>think it probably sucks but eh
14:59<frosch123>the only think python has from C are "==" and "!=", but it has equaly many things from pascal and perl
14:59<argoneus>why is it called C family
15:00<V453000>andythenorth: in some way, why not
15:00*andythenorth thinks on
15:00<argoneus>tfw I get the feeling frosch123 just wants to argue with me
15:01<frosch123>yes, you do that quite often
15:02<argoneus>nono it's more like
15:02<argoneus>two adults speak: "I think X is like Y" "I don't really agree, because Z"
15:03<argoneus>you and me speak: "I think X is like Y" "wow you're retarded"
15:03-!-gelignite [] has joined #openttd
15:04<argoneus>if you have ever done C, python syntax will be completely intuitive
15:04<andythenorth>V453000: got some problem with Timber Yard, it produces BDMT and ENSP, then BDMT -> more ENSP at Supply Yard
15:04<argoneus>good luck doing clojure or haskell
15:04<frosch123>argoneus: maybe become an artist instead
15:04<andythenorth>remove Timber Yard?
15:04<frosch123>in art there is no right and wrong
15:04<argoneus>frosch123: I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong
15:04<argoneus>I'm just saying you feel like you need to be condescending
15:04<frosch123>argoneus: i have used over 40 programming languages in my life
15:04<argoneus>for no reason
15:04<argoneus>wow, do you have over 300 confirmed kills?
15:05<V453000>andythenorth: have supply yard accept BDMT directly? :D
15:05<frosch123>saying python is close to c because it is imperative is stupid
15:05<V453000>timber yard producing only BDMT
15:05<frosch123>because 90% of languages are imperative
15:05<frosch123>and all imperative languages have blocks
15:05<@Alberth>python is closer to java, with its reference semantics
15:05<argoneus>if you can't see parallels between python syntax and C syntax maybe you haven't used them enough
15:06<frosch123>argoneus: no, you do not have used enough languages
15:06<andythenorth>V453000: in FIRS Timber Yard produces both ENSP and BDMT, but industries change between economies...
15:06<frosch123>because by that standard ALL languages are similar
15:06-!-slaca [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:06<@Alberth>argoneus: syntax is the least interesting property of a language
15:06<andythenorth>I see no parallels between python and C syntax
15:06<frosch123>it's a competely stupid things to say, it says nohing at all
15:06<andythenorth>other than they are languages
15:06<@Alberth>they both have "if" :p
15:07<V453000>well andythenorth how about it produces a little bit of ENSP, and better ratio of BDMT
15:07<frosch123>argoneus: it's like hungarian and irish are similar, because they both use latin letters
15:07<V453000>that way you can get a little ENSP without extra effort, shitload of ENSP with extra effort through BDMT -> supply yard
15:08<argoneus>frosch123: I said the syntax was similar
15:08<argoneus>stop putting words in my mouth
15:08<argoneus>the syntax is also similar with 30 other languages sure
15:08<argoneus>that doesn't make the claim any less valid
15:09<frosch123>but the syntax is not similar
15:09<frosch123>only because you use words and letters to name things, it does not make them similar
15:09<andythenorth>well it uses nouns and verbs
15:09<supermop>anyone want to play some kind of GS game?
15:10<supermop>stuck inside during blizzard
15:10<argoneus>if you know C you will have 0 problems learning python syntax
15:10<supermop>it's not that bad outside, but the only places i feel like going are closed or far away
15:10<argoneus>if that doesn't mean it's similar, what does
15:10<frosch123>argoneus: if you know any language you will have 0 problems learning python syntax
15:11<argoneus>so if I learn prolog or scala
15:11<argoneus>python will be easy
15:11<frosch123>you are making a trivial statement and claim it is something special
15:12<argoneus>all I was saying was
15:12<frosch123>no, they are not procedural
15:12<argoneus>you said you don't like the C syntax
15:12<frosch123>any procedural language will help you learn python
15:12<argoneus>any procedural language will help you learn any procedural language
15:12<frosch123>but any procedural language will not help you learn c
15:12<argoneus>some more some less
15:13<andythenorth>V453000: changing BDMT -> ENSP chain is a good move. So much wooden ENSP bugs me (because realism, oil wells need pipe, not planks).
15:13<_dp_>brainfuck is procedural I believe....
15:13<andythenorth>also it gives a longer chain, which this economy lacks
15:13<frosch123>because c has pointers, and c++ has references and templates and ambiguous syntax and shit
15:13<andythenorth>it is inconsistent with FIRS economy, but eh
15:13<andythenorth>fuck that
15:13<argoneus>if you learn C++ you already know C
15:13<argoneus>it's a superset
15:13<argoneus>minus exceptions
15:14<frosch123>not true either
15:14<argoneus>you will have to learn style
15:14<frosch123>in fact most c++ programmers will fail horribly with c
15:14<argoneus>but you already know the workings of the language
15:14<supermop>andythenorth or V, want to play some BB?
15:14<argoneus>you know what which declaration and call does
15:14<frosch123>c++ programmers have no idea how to correctly handle c strings
15:14<frosch123>buffer checking and zero termination
15:14<_dp_>most c++ programmers fail horribly even with c++ :p
15:14<andythenorth>supermop: I would, but I would probably only have 40 mins play today :)
15:15<andythenorth>so not worth your time setting up a game sorry
15:15<argoneus>frosch123: tell the c++ programmer "a c string is a char array with a '\0'" at the end, done
15:16<supermop>maybe i will play "make more coffee even though it is after 15:00"
15:16<argoneus>btw frosch123, you have more experience than me
15:16<argoneus>is it really common to find a C++ programmer that sucks with C?
15:16<frosch123>when you use std::vector and stuff all day
15:17<argoneus>I thought C++ programmers were not ignorant to how their language works
15:17<frosch123>you have no idea how to handle buffer sizes
15:17<argoneus>I suppose that's true
15:17-!-slaca [] has joined #openttd
15:17<argoneus>what about the other way around?
15:17<argoneus>do C people struggle with cpp?
15:17<andythenorth>supermop: coffee is good until 17.30
15:17<frosch123>if you give 10 c++ programmers the task to copy a string into a buffer, they will copy strlen bytes
15:18<frosch123>*9 of them
15:18<argoneus>I thought every C++ programmer started or learned C
15:19<frosch123>just because you learn the basics of something doesn't mean you are good
15:19<argoneus>it's hard to dive right into C++
15:19<andythenorth>I don’t see learning C making it easier
15:19<andythenorth>maybe I am wrong
15:19<andythenorth>I didn’t try
15:19<argoneus>with C you don't care about implementation details
15:19<argoneus>of how different stdlib stuff interacts together
15:20<argoneus>there isn't as much abstraction
15:20<@Alberth>C++ has a changed a lot in C++11 and C++14, it doesn\t do much low level C-ish things if you want to
15:20<argoneus>you can write C++ like C with raw pointers and passing them around and using c strings but it's wrong
15:20<argoneus>you aren't supposed to do that
15:21<@Alberth>well, it depends, the language allows it, and maybe you need it or so
15:22<@Alberth>other languages don't give you that choice
15:22<andythenorth>V453000: it’s better with BDMT not GOODs at Supply Yard
15:22<andythenorth>but ENSP chain is still weak for such a big economy
15:22<V453000>not a big problem
15:22<V453000>ENSP is fine
15:22<argoneus>frosch123: which languages do you use these days and which languages did you find cool when you worked with them?
15:23<V453000>goods should remain to be able to produce ENSP for rubber
15:23<argoneus>im nowhere near 40 langs and curious
15:23<V453000>& diamonds ofc
15:23<frosch123>argoneus: at work i use c++
15:25<frosch123>at home i obviously only do non-production/temporary/experimental stuff, for which i usually use python
15:25<frosch123>because it just has better libraries
15:25<andythenorth>V453000: goods no longer converts to ENSP though...
15:25<andythenorth>due to this change
15:26<V453000>but why should it no longer do that?
15:26<andythenorth>because I had to swap it
15:26<frosch123>though i also get in contact with a lot of plain C at work
15:26<andythenorth>only 3 inputs?
15:26<frosch123>yeah, maybe 70% c++, 30% c is more accurate
15:26<V453000>wait why the fuck does fruit go directly to it? XD
15:27<V453000>ah petroleum stuff
15:27<andythenorth>I dunno
15:27<andythenorth>I think it needs another ENSP-producing industry
15:27<andythenorth>considering explosives manufacturer
15:27<frosch123>before i used python, i uses java and delphi
15:27<frosch123>and before that object pascal
15:27<andythenorth>chemicals -> ENSP
15:27<V453000>I would just remove petroleum fuels instead
15:27<frosch123>for scripting i use bash, awk, sed and python
15:27<V453000>does not make any sense to me why have that tbh
15:28<V453000>keep them and remove them from supply yard
15:28<V453000>no reason to put them there
15:28<V453000>you already produce BDMT through glass with it
15:28<V453000>so it's fine
15:28<argoneus>object pascal?
15:28<argoneus>that sounds scary
15:29<frosch123>it's better than c :p
15:29<argoneus>I only used regular pascal after I used C for a bit, and I kept asking myself "so how do I do this, oh I can't / oh there's a weird workaround"
15:30<andythenorth>glass chain is a bit daft
15:30<andythenorth>it’s only there because, reasons
15:31*andythenorth tests idea
15:34<argoneus>frosch123: do you use C++11/14 stuff at work?
15:34<argoneus>im still wondering if all this is worth learning, if people actually use it outside dick stroking on stackoverflow
15:35<frosch123>adoption of new stuff very much depends on the size of your company
15:35<argoneus>so if I joined a startup
15:35<argoneus>we'd probably use cutting edge C++
15:35<andythenorth>no you’d use node.js
15:35<argoneus>or maybe not
15:35<argoneus>andythenorth: damn
15:35<andythenorth>and then much regret
15:35<supermop>and size of the dick you need to stroke on SO apparently?
15:35<frosch123>maybe "size" is the wrong word, it also involves a bit of "age"
15:35<argoneus>I actually got an offer on linked like a week ago
15:35<argoneus>from one of my uni teachers
15:35<argoneus>who owns a startup
15:35<argoneus>and he asked me if i know ios
15:35<supermop>my fiancee is hardcore python dev,
15:35<argoneus>fuck ios
15:36<supermop>but she joined a startup thats entirely a ruby shop
15:36<argoneus>ruby is spooky
15:36<supermop>with most of the devs as NYU acting and theatre grads who went to ruby bootcamps
15:37<frosch123>argoneus: i am in a rather old company. some people are still overwhelmed by "svn", and in some dark corners you can find k&r c code, which for some reason still compiles
15:37<@Alberth>-std=k&r :p
15:38<supermop>she hates rby, but what can you do? the whole company is focused on it
15:39<@Alberth>slowly spread the word :p
15:42<+glx><frosch123> adoption of new stuff very much depends on the size of your company <-- and the tools they use too ;)
15:42<argoneus>supermop: ruby is good
15:42<argoneus>the problem with ruby is you can pretty much redefine the language
15:42<argoneus>so you have to learn every library separately
15:43<argoneus>at least that's what my experience with it was
15:46<frosch123>oh damn, i never encountered a "55" in fillomino
15:46<frosch123>(sorry, likely noone here knows what that is)
15:47<andythenorth>V453000: I can drop Vehicles :D
15:47<andythenorth>just figured that out
15:47<andythenorth>silly in this econom
15:47<V453000>yeah actually
15:47<V453000>just turn port to manufacturing plant though I would say
15:47<V453000>sounds pointless to import packaging as well XD
15:48<V453000>what goes there
15:48<V453000>ah copper and fruit
15:48<V453000>k keep them XD
15:48<V453000>the almighty magical convertor industry
15:48<andythenorth>I like Vehicles, and it is not in FIRS
15:48<andythenorth>but I can do something else
15:48<andythenorth>Uranium might yet make it :P
15:49<V453000>good, but make liquids terminal produce considerably less petroleum fuels than chemicals
15:50*andythenorth looks
15:50<andythenorth>too easy to convert?
15:51<V453000>imagine you just connected a liquids terminal
15:51<V453000>first thing you want to do is probably get ENSP asap
15:51<V453000>so you just connect that
15:51<V453000>if you get only a little bit, it motivates you to make chemicals useful
15:52<V453000>and get more that way ... and also use a lot more of the extra BDMT/etc chains linked to chemicals
15:53<andythenorth>exporting BDMT is now silly
15:53<andythenorth>also not realisms
15:54<V453000>where are you exporting BDMT? the supply yard?
15:54<V453000>ah instead of timber
15:54<andythenorth>bulk terminal exports them
15:54<V453000>I don't see a big problem with that
15:55<V453000>is nice
15:55<andythenorth>me neither
15:55<V453000>gives more chemicals from manganese, makes manganese useful
15:55<V453000>have bulk terminal accept chemicals and export BDMT instead makes more sense though?
15:56<V453000>chemicals + manganese -> bdmt?
15:56<V453000>idk :D
15:56<V453000>chemicals -> glass works -> bdmt -> bulk terminals -> chemicals is fun though XD
15:58*andythenorth wonders what he actually changed
15:58<andythenorth>docs will know
15:59<V453000>I think the bulk terminal should output BDMT instead of food perhaps
16:00<andythenorth>considering it
16:00<andythenorth>also more realisms :P
16:00<andythenorth>V453000: not sure everything is right yet, but
16:00<V453000>idk how do you generate this but it is great
16:00<andythenorth>eh, sometimes the dot file caches
16:00<andythenorth>frosch123 did the dot
16:00<V453000>big thumbs up
16:01<V453000>everything is in different spots though XD
16:02<andythenorth>yeah it moves around :P
16:02<V453000>looks good to me in general
16:02<andythenorth>I need to play test
16:02<V453000>best economy in FIRS I have yet seen, for sure
16:02<andythenorth>I played 2 versions of this for ~10 years each
16:02<andythenorth>no historical legacy
16:02<V453000>the temperate one was great too back in the day, idk how it looks now :P
16:03<andythenorth>temperate basic, or the big FIRS?
16:04<andythenorth>ha look how neat and tidy the flows are for ‘basic’ economies
16:04<andythenorth>everything lines up :P
16:04<V453000>yeah, probably the reason why it is so good
16:04<andythenorth>I really like Arctic Basic, chemicals go *everywhere*
16:07<andythenorth>IAHC needs gold or precious metals or uranium or something
16:08<V453000>it is fine as it is tbh :)
16:08<andythenorth>all of these replicate diamonds
16:08<andythenorth>low production primary cargo, no processing
16:09<andythenorth>doesn’t add any gameplay interest
16:09<V453000>you could put it to some valuables port
16:09<andythenorth>had idea of ‘merchant'
16:09<V453000>import vehicles
16:09<V453000>or something
16:09<andythenorth>I should play
16:09<andythenorth>and test
16:09<V453000>exporting gold/diamonds/valuable stuff and getting vehicles sounds super realistic to me
16:09<V453000>in a sensible way
16:11<andythenorth>export diamonds, get a tractor?
16:26<V453000>moar factorio & BRIX tomorrog
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16:30<andythenorth>‘High Value Metals” is a crappy cargo name
16:31<andythenorth> but Rare Metals is a defined term, and Precious Metals is a defined term
16:31<andythenorth>and I want to cover both in a cargo :P
16:33<Taede>shiny metals
16:34-!-Clockworker_ [] has joined #openttd
16:34<andythenorth>shiny shiny
16:42-!-Clockworker [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>bite my shiny metal ass?
16:48<andythenorth>in what way are ‘better roads’ better?
16:48*andythenorth generating a game
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>they make a wider/less road heavy grid than original
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>so more houses for the same number of roads
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>with original, you often get a single house surrounded by roads
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>with better roads, you get at least a 2x2 block of houses
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>but it's not as regular as the grids
16:51<andythenorth>towns should leave a 6x2 tile gap in the middle for my pax station :P
16:51<andythenorth>that option is not in the settings menu
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>under the hood, what actually happens is it defines the minimum distance between roads going in the same direction
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>original leaves a minimum of 1 space, better roads leaves a minimum of 2 spaces (which often means 2, 3 or 4. with 5 you can get another road down the middle)
16:53<andythenorth>so I need better roads
16:53<andythenorth>otherwise there aren’t gaps in the middle of 3x3 or so
16:54<andythenorth>and I need those for station tiles when station walking
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>better roads has a "feature" that fills the middle of a 3x3 grid
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>the "pure" 3x3 grid also does that
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why don't you just "walk" with drive through stops?
16:55<andythenorth>then I’d feel obliged to run buses
16:55<andythenorth>then why walk? o_O
16:55<andythenorth>given cdist
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 24 00:00:18 2016