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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-26

---Logopened Tue Jan 26 00:00:21 2016
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06:40<Wolf01>where's the cat person?
06:46<Wolf01>„Confidential Technic Ultramotive“ (42056) £178,99 £1249,99- neuer Sportwagen ähnlich einem McLaren (the first price has strikethrough) but I think they put a wrong "1" there
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08:12<argoneus>good morning train friends
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08:45<V453000>this just in: forum moderators to prove that they are assholes yet again \o/
08:46<V453000>why even interfere in a thread where somebody is trying to do something constructive
08:47<V453000>and I wouldn't call asking for constructive feedback rude at all
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08:50<V453000>logo discussion?
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08:57<@peter1138>i like turtles?
08:59<Wolf01>bah, that's the artist's fault too, I can like one thing and I'm free to not explain why, maybe I can like it because of colour while the artist drew it so because it shows a "story" behind it
08:59<Wolf01>and we won't agree
08:59<Wolf01>(I know because I had to do with a graphics designer for 4 years)
09:03<V453000>yes but in terms of actually bringing it anywhere, derailing the discussion is not great
09:03<V453000>and not explaining why I don't like something is just plain not useful
09:04<V453000>the only thing he is asking for is a fruitful discussion
09:04<@peter1138>best logo
09:04<V453000>sure because you are used to it
09:04<V453000>just like me, I don't mind it ... mostly because I am used to seeing it for years now
09:05<Wolf01>I like Hydros' logo, but I don't think it's suited for OTTD
09:05<V453000>but if you try to be unbiased and decide if it is actually Really better than his suggestions, ...
09:06<V453000>sure if you describe OpenTTD as amateurish and lame, just recycling ideas from TTD, then the logo fits perfectly Wolf01
09:06<V453000>because that is what it is, very basic logo with no real thought in it, just copypasting the shape of TTD logo
09:06<Wolf01>because OTTD is not a TT C&P?
09:07<@peter1138>nothing wrong with a basic logo
09:07<V453000>exactly, then why should hte logo be C&P
09:07<V453000>well one thing is basic and one thing is amateurish
09:07<V453000>a logo can have little content and be super well thought through
09:08<Wolf01>it's like what they did with the IntelliJ softwares, every year they changed the logo, the first ones were almost the same and recognisable, now the PHPStorm one looks a Photoshop one and it looks like a full rebrand of the suite
09:09<V453000>what do you suggest then?
09:10<Wolf01>For example I like more the Chrill's ones, I'm used to associate OTTD with the diamond shape
09:10<V453000>ok peter1138 then perhaps we can build upon that and improve it?
09:10<V453000>instead of "I don't like X" ?
09:10<@peter1138>what needs improving?
09:10<V453000>im done
09:11<argoneus>I AM
09:11<Wolf01>also TT is not all about trains, why not shape the logo like a ship?
09:12<argoneus>>TT is not all about trains
09:12<argoneus>aww look at him
09:13<Wolf01>or maybe I'm not aware that the acronym changed to Open Train Transport Deluxe?
09:13<Wolf01>which might solve some copyright problems
09:13<argoneus>you mean
09:14<V453000>acronym and meaning of words is one thing, what people actually do in the game is another
09:14<argoneus>Only Train Transport Done
09:15<@peter1138>trying to make a train shape out of the letters "ottd" is first mistake
09:16<@peter1138>well, assuming the current logo is needs replacing is the first one :p
09:17<Wolf01>I'm the opinion that logo and name should be two distinct figures, the name should be well readable and the logo could call some elements of the name, but not with the shape of the name
09:17<argoneus>the most important part of a logo is that it's simple and recognizable
09:17<argoneus>and should be easy to draw
09:17<Wolf01>yes, that's my opinion
09:17<argoneus>if you stylize the logo with trains and ships
09:17<argoneus>it will be too cluttered
09:18<@peter1138>yeah where's the buses and lorries?
09:18<Wolf01>for example death metal band logos are a bad example
09:18<@peter1138>and planes
09:18<argoneus>peter1138: planes are banned
09:18<Wolf01>but they look cool
09:18<argoneus>what's a lorry
09:20<Wolf01>you could stylize the logo with ships, aircrafts and lorries for a splash screen
09:20<Wolf01>you have plenty of space
09:20<Wolf01>(I still want ekranoplanes)
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>but ekranoplans are essentially ships?
09:21<Wolf01>yes, but ships are too slow in the game
09:26<Wolf01>let's get a distinctive tract of the game and make a logo from it, for example a depot with a road and a rail crossed behind it and OTTD printed on the side, it's better than a logo which doesn't mean anything until you tell me that O-||-D means OTTD
09:26<Wolf01>(and I have bad taste for sure, but at least I could recognise it)
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's pretty much my main point as well...
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>the rotated Ts are just a tiny bit "too clever"
09:35<V453000>even when OPENTTD is written under it?
09:35<V453000>where is this world going to
09:41<@peter1138>if you write it under it
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well, but the point is, if you cannot clearly read the logo, it's not better than any random shape
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>and then we might as well keep a random orange rotated square
09:45<V453000>hence the text to explain the shape?
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>the random orange square also has the text to explain it.
09:46<V453000>yes except it has nothing interesting in it and looks bad
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>but... transition costs are huge. and none of the proposed logos are better by that much of a margin to justify it...
09:47<V453000>a modernized logo would be a lot better, especially in making the project look like a serious thing and bring new players
09:47<V453000>well neither of them probably is final, they are suggestions on which direction to work further
09:47<V453000>refining is the last part
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, yes. but i don't see how "refining" will do much to that margin
09:50<V453000>well at a point when some direction where to go is decided, then none of the results will be worse than the original
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, my point was that it doesn't suffice that it is better than the old one. it must be better by a LARGE margin
10:23<@Rubidium>V453000: "proper" 3D is probably even better to attract people
10:24<V453000>proper anything is the best way to attract people but we should probably remain in reality, aka areas that some people are putting effort into
10:25<V453000>if anybody starts coding 3D OpenTTD, I will happily support graphics
10:25<@Rubidium>in any case, I think we can say OpenTTD is currently dead or maybe dormant at best
10:26<V453000>:d ok, and it will wake up when/how? :D
10:26<@Rubidium>nobody seems to be interested in resolving issues, only some are interested in adding new features
10:26<@Rubidium>V453000: at Sankt Nimmerlein with a big bang
10:26<V453000>honestly, a new project sounds to me like the best solution lately
10:28<@Rubidium>but a new project is, by definition not OpenTTD anymore
10:29<@Rubidium>ergo, a new project is no solution to revive OpenTTD
10:30<V453000>if it is basically a successor, as in heavy inspired but building upon it, it indeed is not reviving OpenTTD, but I believe many people would be interested in it
10:31<V453000>the biggest shame is the newgrf content
10:31<V453000>rest is whatever
10:31<V453000>perhaps it is possible to make a game which is 3D but has locked isometric camera and possibility to load OpenTTD's sprites with offsets instead of the 3D objects
10:32<V453000>does not sound like a good idea though
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10:36<argoneus>add a pvp mode to openttd and fund tournaments
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>is there a "Sankt Nimmerlein" equivalent in other languages?
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10:38<V453000>regardless, if there is something to sprinkle new life and new interest in new features, then I believe changing visuals of logo/stuff, especially since there is a chance to do so - properly - is a good move
10:38<V453000>but yes we can just sit around and declare dead
10:39<V453000>& wait for mr Nimmerlein, whoever the fuck that is :>
10:39<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: when hell freezes over ?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, that means basically the same thing, but it's not really "equivalent"
10:40<argoneus>I don't see how changing a logo would sprinkle new life
10:40<V453000>certainly more than waiting for miracle
10:41<argoneus>you could go the factorio way
10:41<argoneus>and make weekly posts on the front page about what's new
10:41<argoneus>and what you need help with
10:41<argoneus>that makes users feel involved in development
10:41<argoneus>it's cool
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: that kinda only works if there's actually something new happening every week
10:41<V453000>as Eddi says XD also, I don't need users to feel involved, I need people to BE involved XD
10:42<argoneus>I personally don't really have motivation
10:42<V453000>revitalizing visuals can either bring new players, in general get interest, or even bring back old dogs / current dogs can feel like shit is happening and start having ideas again
10:42<argoneus>even if I made a cool AI or patched something (which I can't do either lmao), no one would probably care
10:42<argoneus>might as well use my resources elsewhere
10:43<argoneus>maybe there's people who share my opinion
10:43<V453000>anybody who is lazy shares your opinion, they just have a different excuse/justification :)
10:43<argoneus>I'm programming an AI for brood war right now
10:43<argoneus>that thing isn't, you know, dead
10:44<V453000>brood war has not died yet? :D
10:44<V453000>who plays BW against AI though?
10:44<argoneus>it's AIs competing amongst eachother
10:44<argoneus>it's student competitions
10:44<argoneus>there's actually motivation to write the thing
10:44<V453000>well you could do that in any game probably
10:45<argoneus>it's quite prestigious actually
10:45<argoneus>for what it is
10:45<V453000>that is pretty nice
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10:46<argoneus>and when there's things like this
10:46<V453000>I bet the AI would beat me any day XD
10:46<argoneus>why would I write things for openttd
10:46<argoneus>you get my point, right
10:46<argoneus>about the motivation thingy
10:47<V453000>sooo let's make OpenTTD2 with modern engine and 3D that people care about? :P
10:47<argoneus>I think openttd itself could be a great platform
10:47<argoneus>if given the option
10:48<argoneus>imo better multiplayer/scripting could be nice
10:48<argoneus>then again I don't participate in it too much so I can't tell
10:48<argoneus>just my $0.05
10:50<V453000>I kind of want 3D a lot
10:50<argoneus>what was wrong with train fever?
10:50<argoneus>no content?
10:50<V453000>idk I haven't played it
10:50<V453000>am guessing no game logic like OpenTTD has (the signals and stuff)
10:51<V453000>realistic shit gets boring relatively quickly due to bad replayability if there aren't interesting mechanics
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>train fever has a bit of annoying UI
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10:56<@peter1138>clearly the best way to start "openttd 2" is with the logo
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: and the name :p
10:56<V453000>I didn't say that
10:56<V453000>revitalizing openttd and starting a new project are two different things
10:59<_dp_>hi, openttd2 idea is in the air lately :)
11:00<_dp_>guess I'll share this then:
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i'm concerned, openttd2 idea always was tucked firmly on the ground, not moving anywhere...
11:00<@peter1138>step 2: reverse engineer train fever...
11:00<argoneus>is that a browser game _dp_
11:01<_dp_>I would'n call it a game yet... but, yes, it's browser)
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: that looks like a bad version of a model railway planner
11:01<argoneus>i have an idea
11:01<_dp_>and, furthermore multiplayer))
11:01<argoneus>buy the oculus devkit
11:01<argoneus>and make openttd VR
11:01<argoneus>as one of the first VR games
11:04<Sacro>I'd play that
11:04<Sacro>With my playstation mouse
11:06<_dp_>vr for smth that isn't first-person... sounds weird to me
11:07<V453000>3D lets you get in the trains :P
11:07<@peter1138>_dp_, these people would sit in the drivers seat of a train...
11:07<@peter1138>^ see
11:09<_dp_>and build rails by driving tracklayer around?)
11:12<_dp_>my main concern with 3d is that, as I understand, it takes enourmous amount of work to get it look nice and work fast.
11:14<argoneus>you just use an engine
11:14<argoneus>it makes no sense to roll your own engine in a very small team
11:14<_dp_>existing engined dont' seem to fit well for open world games
11:15<@peter1138>most engines have really nasty constraints on how the rest of it works
11:15<argoneus>unity works fine for cities skylines
11:15<_dp_>minecraft uses it's own for example
11:15<argoneus>im sure you can bend it
11:15<argoneus>minecraft is a great example of fantastic coding
11:15<argoneus>the game runs flawlessly
11:16<@peter1138>there's like some huge level of sarcasm here
11:16<Milek7>no unity!
11:17<argoneus>minecraft is such a great game
11:17<argoneus>people blame java for performance issues ever since it came out
11:17<argoneus>"no wonder minecraft runs slow, it's java!"
11:17<argoneus>it should be
11:18<argoneus>"no wonder minecraft runs slow, it's notch!"
11:19<@peter1138>it runs a lot better since he left
11:20<argoneus>but yea
11:20<argoneus>cities skylines runs on unity
11:20<argoneus>and it seems to work nice
11:20<argoneus>I don't know how many corners they had to cut but all the traffic going around looks nice
11:21<argoneus>and it runs nice too
11:21<@Alberth>try 1500 trains
11:21<argoneus>there's 1500 cars
11:22<@peter1138>now mix unity with gpl
11:23<Milek7>unity is slowww
11:23<@peter1138>what is unity? a 3d engine or a development environment?
11:23<Milek7>rather both
11:23<_dp_>it's like flash but 3d as I understand it
11:24<@peter1138>also c#
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>unity seems to have trouble on linux and amd graphics
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>at least all unity games i've seen so far
11:31<V453000>fuck linux :>
11:31<V453000>shots fired
11:33<@peter1138>distributed processing
11:33<@peter1138>most important feature
11:34<@peter1138>undo knob
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>i can totally see the use for an undo knob, but i see no sensible implementation
11:37<Milek7>undo in openttd?
11:38<@Alberth>just a knob would be easy :)
11:39<@Alberth>maybe it should reload the last save?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that would be called "quickload"
11:40<@peter1138>in multiplayer
11:40<@peter1138>or 16:40
11:40<@Alberth>time to go home?
11:40<@peter1138>i guess my phone's clock is fast
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>12h clock is weird...
11:40<@Alberth>yeah, don't check the time in the morning
11:40<Milek7>there should be a local build mode
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11:41<Milek7>and only after commiting changes should be send to server
11:41<Milek7>then it will be easy to add undo
11:41<@peter1138>network protocol: git
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: that's called a "planning mode"
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>(and is one of Train Fever's biggest missing features)
11:44<Milek7>they are adding new features to openttd or only bugfixes?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>who is "they"?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>if you build it, they will come.
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause>somehow the "Locating Jebediah Kerman" loading text almost sounds like "The little Jeb wants to be picked up from the ball pit" to me ;)
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13:03<andythenorth>Wolf01: pictures + video eh?
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13:28*andythenorth playing a game
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13:32*Eddi|zuHause sorting through KSP mods to see which ones impact performance
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27505 trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt (2016-01-26 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>portuguese: 2 changes by neuralshock
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13:54<[dpk]>andythenorth: ping?
13:55-!-[dpk] is now known as dpk
13:55<dpk>or planetmaker
13:56<dpk>i was wondering what the motive was behind the cargo name change from 'Petrol' to 'Petroleum Fuel' in FIRS
13:56<dpk>and whether that needs to be reflected in the German translation, or if it can stay as 'Treibstoff'
13:57<andythenorth>it’s a question for translators
13:57<andythenorth>I changed, because in UK English, it’s weird to burn petrol in a cement kiln
13:57<andythenorth>or use it in heavy equipment
13:58<dpk>ah, i see, that's what i wondered
13:58<dpk>if it was because of confusion that's specific to English
13:58<dpk>but i think Treibstoff is perfectly okay for that (it just means 'fuel')
13:58<andythenorth>if google translate can be trusted, Treibstoff is highly appropriate (fuel)
13:58<andythenorth>I would have used ‘fuel’ but in the uk that also covers coal, wood etc
13:59<dpk>possible error in the base string: in STR_EXTRA_CEMENT_PLANT_PETROL_SUBSTR should 'petroleum fuels' be 'petroleum fuel'? seems odd to use the plural there, unless there are multiple sorts of fuel
13:59<dpk>(that's just the first one i encountered)
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>dpk: could be "Heizöl"
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14:03*andythenorth might have made a boo
14:04<andythenorth>nah, I’ve used the plural deliberately
14:04<andythenorth>quirk of English, sorry
14:04<andythenorth>there are multiple valid fuels
14:07<dpk>so there are multiple kinds of fuel, okay
14:07<andythenorth>petrol, diesel, heavy oil etc :)
14:07<dpk>well, multiple kinds covered by that one cargo type
14:07<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
14:17<dpk>"Edible Oil" is a generalization of olive oil, vegetable oil, sunflower oil, etc?
14:21<dpk>'8 tonnes' should be '8t' in STR_EXTRA_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT_BEANS_SUBSTR, no? so it's general for both imperial and metric tons
14:22<dpk>or maybe not, since STR_EXTRA_FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT_NUTS_SUBSTR is the same. hadn't noticed that
14:23<andythenorth>you make a good point
14:23<andythenorth>fixing that now
14:26<andythenorth>pushed, might not show up until tomorrow
14:26<andythenorth>should be ’t’ in all of those cases
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14:30<Benny>is there a reason dragging signals on diagonals places signals one tile off?
14:32<dpk>Benny: because each tile of diagonal track is less distance than a tile of straight track
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>Benny: diagonals count as half a tile
14:33<dpk>hmm, how do i get the web translator to accept no change to the string to stop it listing it as outdated?
14:34<dpk>since i already used 't' everywhere
14:34<Benny>so its a coding issue?
14:34<Benny>or am i dumb
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>Benny: can you be more specific?
14:35<Benny>when i drag signals with a density of 2, which is 1 space between each signal
14:35<Benny>i get 1 tile on straights
14:35<Benny>and 1.5 tiles on diagonals
14:35<Benny>3 tiles
14:35<Benny>which should be 2
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, since diagonals are half a tile, every 4th diagonal tile means a density of two
14:36<Benny>right so it is a coding issue
14:36<Benny>because it counts every Xth tile and not spacing between them
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's just a misunderstanding
14:36<Benny>well it seems very wrong
14:36<Benny>with fast accelerating trains it causes slowdowns
14:37<Benny>and trains dont fit between signals properly on diagonals
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, it counts distance between the faces of the signal
14:37<andythenorth>dpk: try putting in an arbitrary space?
14:37<andythenorth>might trick eints
14:37<andythenorth>or translate it wrong, then immediately translate it back
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, trains on diagonals behave a bit odd. but that has nothing to do with the signal spacing
14:38<Benny>i think its the sprites that are weird mostly on diagonals
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14:38<Benny>because a 1 tile train fits on 1 tile on a straight and 2 tiles on diagonals
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, some parts of the code try to correct for a more euclidean factor of 0.7, but that is not consistent
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>other parts have a factor of 0.75
14:41<tt_johannes>if you look at an openttd map, it's a square, however, with one corner on top. If you'd have to turn it such that there are two corners on top, i.e. 45 degrees left or right, in which way would you preferably turn it?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>and the display stays at a factor of 1
14:41<tt_johannes>what sounds more familiar?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>tt_johannes: (0,0) of the image becomes the north corner of the map
14:42<tt_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: what is 0,0 for you? is it the top left corner of coordinate system?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>so in preparation you should rotate the heightmap 45° counter clockwise to compensate
14:42<Benny>this might be but i dont know how it connects to signals being 0.5 tile off
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, with images, (0,0) is usually top left
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Benny: it's not off. your imagination is off :p
14:44<Benny>i think its a matter of not wanting to place signals on "half" tiles
14:45<Benny>by some developer or maybe all of them. or maybe im stupid and missing something very obvious
14:45<Benny>or well, signals taking up 0.5 tile and not 1 like on straight
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>Benny: it's not very obvious, as diagonals are handled very inconsistently in openttd.
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14:51<dpk>andythenorth: i tried space. will use the "insert junk" approach instead
14:51<dpk>which worked
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14:55<dpk>what's the prototype for the 'Liquids Terminal'? i see it takes both oil and edible oil
14:56*andythenorth finds
14:57<andythenorth>dpk: any ‘liquid bulk terminal’ at a large port, e.g.
14:57<dpk>aha okay
14:58<andythenorth>there are generic ’bulk terminals’, or subdivided into ‘dry bulk’ and ‘liquid bulk’
14:58<andythenorth>depends on size of port
15:05<Milek7>is there an option to disable to local authorities?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: no, but the magic bulldozer will ignore them
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15:06<dpk>Eddi|zuHause: any ideas for a translation for that? 'Hafen für flüssige Massengüter' is quite long, and doesn't match the pattern of industries having simple nouns as names
15:07<dpk>especially since, won't they end up getting names like "Diddlington Hafen für flüssige Massengüter"?
15:07<Milek7>afaik there is no option to enable cheats on multiplayer
15:07<andythenorth>dpk: any literal translation, like ‘liquids port’?
15:07<Milek7>and even if, this would been an overkill ;)
15:08<dpk>i considered Flüssigkeitshafen, googlecount effectively 1 (actually 4 but it's the same article four times over)
15:08*andythenorth looks
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>that would be the closest i would come up with, but it sounds very odd...
15:08<dpk>also that
15:08<_dp_>hm, having cheats in mp might be good idea
15:08<_dp_>if it's possible
15:09<andythenorth>dunno if this has a de page, but it’s Hamburg :P
15:09<frosch123>dpk: "Flüssiggüter", not "Flüssigkeiten"
15:10<andythenorth>what does Tanklager-Gesellschaft translate as?
15:10<andythenorth>presumably a company name?
15:10<frosch123>andythenorth: liquid stroage company
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, "Tanklager" could work... it wouldn't have "port" in it, though
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15:11<frosch123>dpk: <- they have a rather specific "Ölhafen"
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>but "Tanklagerhafen" sounds weird as well
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15:14<frosch123>dpk: i vote for "Flüssiggut Verladehafen"
15:14<_dp_>oh, cheat flags are stored in savegame, awesome ^^
15:14<dpk>'Flüssigguthafen' has a few refults (Wikipedia, some document from a local branch of the SPD (a German political party), a business and economics book)
15:15<frosch123>_dp_: one or two of the cheats work fine in mp, after activating in sp
15:15<dpk>but also suffers from the "sounds weird" probelm
15:15<frosch123>dpk: well, the "bulk terminal" was translated as "Überseehafen"
15:15<frosch123>so, maybe you can find another arbitrary synonym :p
15:15<dpk>heh, yeah …
15:16<_dp_>what I'm looking for is a way to let server cheat actually)
15:16<_dp_>not clients
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: GameScript.
15:16<dpk>the server can do what it likes with game scripts, as i understand it
15:16<_dp_>useless shit
15:17<frosch123>_dp_: easy, just cheat, and then kick all clients due to desync
15:17<frosch123>then blame it onto someone else
15:18<_dp_>frosch being helpful as usual :p
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>on the "usefulness" scale, frosch123 ranks barely over V453000 :p
15:19<dpk>i think i'll go for 'Flüssigguthafen'
15:20<_dp_>but this whole scheme sounds as it may work...
15:20<dpk>and with that, FIRS de-DE is up-to-date
15:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: when you say that, i am unsure about the orientation of your axes
15:20<_dp_>really miss magic bulldozer for server
15:21<andythenorth>dpk: :)
15:21<andythenorth>bloody Iron Horse incremental compile
15:21<andythenorth>it saves loads of time
15:21<andythenorth>until it goes wrong
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, V453000 and i are usually on diametrically opposite opinions :p
15:22<andythenorth>then I have to deal with multiprocessing being unable to pickle errors
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so anybody else must be closer :p
15:22<andythenorth>and then my json file for tracking deps breaks
15:22<dpk>andythenorth: considered using make?
15:22<andythenorth>it does use make :)
15:22<andythenorth>for some value of ‘use'
15:25<dpk>well, maybe replace multiprocessing with -j 8 and your deps json file with a deps graph in your Makefile, i mean
15:26<andythenorth>yeah, I could learn how to do that
15:26<dpk>(replace 8 with your preferred number of processes)
15:26<andythenorth>I think I’d need to change a few other things
15:27<frosch123>dpk: problem is, compilation time takes "start up time" + "source size"*"compilation speed"
15:27*andythenorth wonders why Iron Horse is _so_ slow for nmlc
15:27<dpk>you need a process script that works on one target file at once
15:27<dpk>frosch123: and?
15:27<@Alberth>yes, 1 grf file
15:27<andythenorth>FIRS is fast now, or fast enough
15:27<frosch123>dpk: there was a version of iron horse, where the source was split in 100 parts, and "start up time" dominated over everything
15:28<andythenorth>still that way now
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: same reason why CETS is so slow? sheer size of the code?
15:28<andythenorth>the incremental compile is cost tradeoff
15:28<andythenorth>it’s much slow when everything needs compiled
15:28<andythenorth>but that’s rare
15:28<andythenorth>usually only sprites or such changed
15:28<andythenorth>but the engineering of it is daft
15:29<andythenorth>result is good, but engineering not
15:29<dpk>i assume by "incremental compile" you mean you produce a load of subsidiary files then combine them into one at the end or something? so you're not just producing "1 GRF file", you're producing n intermediate files which are the dependencies for producing the 1 GRF file at the very end
15:30<andythenorth>the multiprocessing use is incidental
15:30<andythenorth>because they’re split to 1 file per vehicle, I can also run them in parallel
15:30<andythenorth>same as make would with -j
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: <- see last paragraph
15:32<frosch123>when you change 20 files, you can try to compile them in two sets of 10
15:32<frosch123>and hope that the enxt time you only need to recompile 10 of them
15:32<frosch123>i.e. don't split stuff into 100 compiles, but only 10
15:32<frosch123>with sometimes changing the composition
15:33<andythenorth>I wonder about doing that by splitting apart the rosters in Iron Horse :P
15:33<andythenorth>maybe to separate grfs
15:33<andythenorth>but I hate the separate grfs idea :P
15:33<andythenorth>we need grfmerge :P
15:34<frosch123>that name is taken
15:34<frosch123>and you do not want to tuse that name
15:34<frosch123>though maybe it was just grfmrg
15:34<frosch123>because 8 letters are too much
15:34<andythenorth>someone made a grf-smusher?
15:34<frosch123>andythenorth: before newgrf, people modified the baseset
15:35<frosch123>but since there is only one baseset
15:35<frosch123>you needed grfdiff and grfmrg to extract diffs between basesets
15:35<frosch123>and merge them into another
15:35<dpk>frosch123: that's interesting. if you set it up with make to build in parallel, the startup time of any individual build script (assuming they're written in Python and C) should be negligible
15:36<andythenorth>you’d think, but frosch123 timed it
15:36<frosch123>it's basically an actionA, but offline
15:36<frosch123>dpk: nml has a start time of 0.9 seconds (on my machine back then)
15:36<andythenorth>and I start it maybe 70 times or so
15:37*andythenorth checks
15:37<frosch123>when the sources are split so much, that each file then takes 0.1 seconds to compile, you have 1 second per file
15:37<dpk>starting processes is fast, especially on Linux, and Python uses memory-mapped files for its bytecode so modules will be shared between processes
15:37<dpk>in memory
15:37<frosch123>a compete compile then costs n seconds cpu time
15:37<dpk>hmm. 0.9 secs each time?
15:37<andythenorth>for 80 vehicles
15:37<frosch123>while as a single file it only costs (0.9+n*0.1) seconds cpu time
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should use CETS as a performance test, with one huge file, individual files, and clustered files
15:38<frosch123>if you split often enough it will takes ages on any amount of cores
15:38<andythenorth>85s to compile the set with a multiprocessing pool of 16 workers
15:38<dpk>sure, 85s build time from cold seems reasonable
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't think n*0.1 is the right formula
15:39<frosch123>dpk: same in c++, processing of header files takes so long, that a complete compilation of many cpp files takes longer, than pasting them all together
15:39<dpk>if you're doing incremental compilation, then, it should only take 1s or 2s or so to rebuild after one file changes
15:39<andythenorth>depends how many vehicles are in the file, but yes
15:39<andythenorth>that’s about righ
15:39<andythenorth>right *
15:39<frosch123>dpk: yes, andy's incremental compiles were fast, but complete compiles were slow
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, it wasn't in the case of CETS
15:40<andythenorth>I just recompiled 8 vehicles in 7s
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>CETS with 1000 engines didn't take 1000*0.1s
15:40<dpk>well, how often do you need to do a complete compile?
15:40<andythenorth>only if I change the classes
15:40<andythenorth>or when I screw up :P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>dpk: often enough that it gets annoying
15:40<andythenorth>when I screw up, the JSON breaks, then the incremental compile fails
15:41<andythenorth>I should put guards on the thing I screw up, it’s always the same places
15:41<andythenorth>or I should stop the JSON breaking
15:41<dpk>right, so rebuilds should also be atomic
15:41<dpk>so that if they break, you still have the old build to work from as a base for the next incremental rebuild
15:41<frosch123>dpk: at some point the conclusion was to change to compiler, so it could compile multiple files independently, but with only one start-up time
15:42<frosch123>but noone finished that :)
15:42<andythenorth>it would be very nice to have :)
15:43<andythenorth>sometimes I think it would be nice to just pass it the python classes I have :P
15:43<andythenorth>but I’m not smart enough
15:43<dpk>what happened to CETS? i'd really like a train set with lots of historical German trains. DBSet is nice but only starts in 1920
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>lack of motivation happened
15:45<andythenorth>also lack of graphics
15:45<frosch123>eddi had no danmack, v or pikka
15:46*andythenorth has made very ugly vehicle cargo graphics for phosphate
15:46<andythenorth>everyone needs a danmack or pikka
15:46<@Alberth>rebuilding nml is worth the trouble?
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i had a oberhümer...
15:46<andythenorth>Alberth: honestly, not
15:46<andythenorth>for me
15:47<andythenorth>being able to link files somehow would be nice :P
15:47<andythenorth>but not essential
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause had a redneck patch for including comments, so that reliable splits/joins could be done :P
15:48<andythenorth>then use grfcodec for speed
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>that is basically a giant hack for circumventing an nmlc problem with large source files
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>(where "large" is around 100kloc)
15:51<andythenorth>if I was picking things, a station GUI that worked on 2x UI zoom is much preferable to faster nmlc :P
15:51<andythenorth>for example
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15:53<frosch123>eints got a lot better due to python 3.2 -> 3.4
15:53<frosch123>did anyone try nml since then? :p
15:54*andythenorth checks
15:54<andythenorth>I have 3.2.5
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i certainly didn't
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>my "full CETS" tests were still with python2
15:55<andythenorth>I can’t upgrade to 3.4, my python build is borked because [setuptools again]
15:55<Milek7>current is Python 3.5.1 :>
15:55<@Alberth>python2 is probably still faster
15:55<Milek7>i don't understand why people are using old software
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to set up the CETS makefile so you could easily switch between full and split compiles, but i don't think i ever did that
15:56<@Alberth>Milek7: you want to be very compatible with others, or you use a computer but you cannot install new software on it
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think it's a speed issue, it was more an "exploding memory usage" issue
15:56<andythenorth>Alberth: both valid here
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: sometimes updating to something not within your distribution's repository ecosystem may be too much of a hassle
15:57<andythenorth>currently I have no supported way to get a python build on this mac
15:57<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: likely, I looked into that, but my attempt exploded in some way, don't remember how exactly
15:58<Milek7>Eddi|zuHause: so i always use rolling distros, because freezing branch model have always ancient packages
15:59<@Alberth>Milek7: and as a result, any software that you make cannot be run at all major distributions
15:59<andythenorth>nor in production
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: my suspicion is that python's internal string handling was never meant to handle taking apart huge strings, and it tries to store each partial string in memory, in case it comes up again
15:59<andythenorth>nor for development against fixed production KGS
15:59<andythenorth>also “VersionConflict: (setuptools 0.6c12dev-r88846 (/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/Extras/lib/python), Requirement.parse('setuptools==1.4.2’))”
16:00<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: true I think, the problem there is RE, which is not designed to read its output from a stream while processing
16:00<andythenorth>so no python 3.4 for me
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: i hate rolling distros, because it's almost impossible to only update one single program. unrolling dependencies will almost always update almost everything
16:00<andythenorth>“I wanted to update libpng, but now my GCC is being rebuilt” :(
16:00<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: also, nml seems to make zillions of the same object copies, but I cannot see if these can be shared without breaking something
16:00<andythenorth>8 hours later
16:01<frosch123>comparing firs: parsing 31s -> 27s, preprocessing 23s -> 12s, writing 7s -> 5s
16:01<andythenorth>frosch123: that’s fast :O
16:01<andythenorth>anyone tried it on pypy?
16:01<@Alberth>people are working on speeding up python computations, thus
16:01<frosch123>for firs python 3.4 seems to be a lot faster for the "preprocessing" phase
16:02<frosch123>i have no recorded numbers for iron horse
16:03<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: eints memory consumption was halfed by python3.2->3.4
16:03<andythenorth>“sudo easy_install setuptools==1.4.2”
16:03<andythenorth>"The 'setuptools==0.6c9' distribution was not found"
16:03<andythenorth>I really really hate python packaging
16:03<andythenorth>it is not done well, and suffers from multiple brown bag releases
16:04<Milek7>some distros have own packages for python modules
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... so "make" telling me "everything is up to date" is taking 10s :p
16:08<frosch123>ironhorse takes 0.8 seconds for most files
16:08<frosch123>no idea what it was before
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm. i don't think i've exhausted my 6 cores in quite a while
16:09<frosch123>some take up to 1.3
16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: my numbers won’t match yours so eh :)
16:09<frosch123>there are some "bigger files"
16:10<frosch123>andythenorth: did i tell you, that i made "make" an alias for "nice make"
16:10<frosch123>specifically due to your grfs :p
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec isn't exactly instant either...
16:10<andythenorth>frosch123: what you don’t want your fans to run? It’s good for them
16:10<andythenorth>I thought I fixed the defaults to be more polite
16:11<Eddi|zuHause> <-- wtf does that mean?
16:11<frosch123>sadly i did not manage to teach the admin at work, to run the virus scanner with nice
16:12<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: your unix2dos spits out more than just a version number
16:12<@Alberth>mine does too :(
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16:13<@Alberth>I put a fix in the template project iirc, but euhm, the old makefile is copied to everything :p
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, CETS compile with all files split is: real 4m5.529s user 16m55.766s sys 0m52.229s
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: link?
16:14<@Alberth>it has been a while :)
16:14<@Alberth>let me see if I can find it again
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>so... where did i put the info what file to merge into an nml file...
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i already have a function that combines multiple vehicles into one file
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16:20<@Alberth>sorry, can't find it :(
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16:29*andythenorth living dangerously with pythons :(
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16:44<@Terkhen>Good night
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>so, i tried combining files, but something in there broke nforenum, maybe...
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>i combined each "company" into an individual file, and so far it used: real 4m48.448s user 6m11.252s sys 0m17.191s
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16:48<Eddi|zuHause>[GRFCODEC] cets.grf
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Error: Encountered invalid character looking for literal byte.
16:48<Eddi|zuHause> While reading sprite:105733
16:50<Eddi|zuHause> <-- what might be wrong with that?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>oh, there's a bogus "(" in the line "\2| 7D 81 20(\dxFFFFFFFF "
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>how did that get there?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's not in the original ".onfo" file... how did NFORenum mess that up?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>(".onfo" is the output of nmlc)
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... i think i ran into a "disk full" with cets.nfo being around 1GB...
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>how did that happen?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think i messed up the combination of the combined files...
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>needs filtering out duplicates...
17:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you try to speak to orudge about the wiki credentials?
17:06<andythenorth>no I should I guess
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>now cets.nfo is back to 10MB :p
17:12<Wolf01>andythenorth, I just returned, the news are really promising, and a bad realisation for my wallet ;)
17:12<andythenorth>you like the pictures?
17:15<Wolf01>yes, I would have preferred a frame with cables and pulleys for the excavator, but everything else seems very nice
17:16<Wolf01>I think I'll purchase at least the volvo, the BWE and the claas, maybe 2 of the claas...
17:17<andythenorth>2 BWE? :P
17:17<andythenorth>stacker / reclaimer?
17:17<Wolf01>eh that will be too much :D
17:18<Wolf01>the only thing I didn't understand is that if the BWE has only one L motor
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17:29<andythenorth>it looks
17:30<Wolf01>I was looking on the phone while I was at the pub, now I'm going to look better at the pictures
17:31<Wolf01>yes, XL, still only one... /me plots a full RC conversion
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>sooo... i think that now worked
17:32<Wolf01>also, it's wonderful how it automatically converts dirt to lego pieces in the box image
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>with every company in a file for its own: real 1m51.827s user 4m28.259s sys 0m9.781s
17:34*andythenorth bed
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (4*60+28)/(1*60+51)
17:38<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 2.41441441441
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (16*60+55)/(4*60+5)
17:39<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 4.14285714286
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>so... assuming that all the multiprocessing goes into nmlc, and all other things are single process (which is not entirely true), one should be able to extrapolate how much of the time is spent in nmlc :p
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>(i have 6 cores)
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17:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: can you explain to me what went wrong here?
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>also, the "revision" bit at the start looks wrong...
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18:48<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, looks to me like nmlc is called with the parameters which grfcodec should get or something like that?
18:49<@planetmaker>22:35:27 [NML] src/headers.nfo
18:49<@planetmaker>22:35:28 Usage: nmlc [options] <filename>
18:49<@planetmaker>22:35:28 Where <filename> is the nml file to parse
18:49<@planetmaker>22:35:28 nmlc: error: no such option: --verbosity
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>scripts/Makefile.def:NML_FLAGS ?= -c --verbosity=1
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>it works here...
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause> --verbosity=<level> Set the verbosity level for informational output.
18:51<Eddi|zuHause> [default: 3, max: 4]
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>is it using a wrong/old version of nmlc?
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18:54<Eddi|zuHause>it should be using the nmlc from eddi-nml
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18:58<@planetmaker>NML: 0.4.0.r5377:01988dfeee65 from 2014-09-21 <--- is that correct version, Eddi|zuHause ?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>i pushed a version to eddi-nml earlier today, which would be based on 0.4.4-ish
19:00<@planetmaker>oh, ok. I will try to check that tomorrow
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>Datum: Fri Nov 07 19:15:22 2014 +0100
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>Zusammenfassung: Add: Command line option to set verbosity level of info output.
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>so version from sep 2014 is certainly too old.
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>also, it wouldn't contain my "comment" patches to nml anyway
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>which are kinda the entire point of eddi-nml
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: my local version is called "v5869:bf7946b77414 from 2016-01-26"
19:28<supermop>what is eddi-nml?
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19:34<Eddi|zuHause>a customized version/fork
19:47<supermop>has bridges?
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19:51<Eddi|zuHause>it has comments (ActionC)
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>it has absolutely no gameplay impact, but i use them for some compilation wizardry
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 27 00:00:23 2016