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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-29

---Logopened Fri Jan 29 00:00:25 2016
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06:40<debdog>do vehicles perform any actions (loadin/unloading) at stations which were added automagicly to the oders (implicit orders)?
06:40<debdog>or do they just drive through?
06:46<debdog>hmm, is there a way to prevent this?
06:47<debdog>yes to "pass through" or "yes to "perform action"?
06:47<Pikka>implicit orders aren't real
06:49<debdog>ok, thanksd
06:49<debdog>hehe -d
06:49<debdog>don't need a demon for that (yet) ;)
06:52<@peter1138>use "non-stop" orders to stop vehicles from using unscheduled stops
06:52<argoneus>good morning train friends
06:52<Pikka>an implicit order just means that the train stopped at that station last time round, but the station wasn't in its orders. You can avoid their appearance altogether by doing that thing peter said.
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07:12<@planetmaker>debdog, the 'implicit orders' tell you what the vehicle actually does, thus where it stops. You can change that by using non-stop goto orders (or not using the non-stop option)
07:12<@planetmaker>for the real orders in the list
07:13<@planetmaker>thus the purpose of the implicit orders is not so much that they are orders, but rather information for you to tell you what your orders (also) imply additional to what you explicitly ordered the vehicles to do
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08:20<debdog>all right, thanks for all the explanations, I think I've got it now!
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09:09<openbu>I'm studying NML 0.4.4
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11:39<Wolf01>This site requires Sun Java (32-bit) or higher. You have Macromedia Java¾ (48-bit). Click here [link to main page] to download an installer which will run fine but not really change anything.
11:40<@Alberth>MacroMedia Java???
11:40<Wolf01>and 48-bit
11:41<Wolf01>(it's XKCD)
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12:58<andythenorth>someone is wrong on the internet
12:58<andythenorth>Wolf01: so how much do you think Volvo license adds to price of 42030? :P
12:58<andythenorth>in €0.00 ?
12:59<Wolf01>the entire internet is wrong
12:59<Wolf01>like 20€
13:00<andythenorth>probably it actually reduces the cost per set
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13:00<andythenorth>Lego will have had extensive access to Volvo equipment and brand assets
13:00<andythenorth>Volvo get publicity they couldn’t otherwise buy
13:00<Wolf01>oh, right, Volvo != Disney
13:02<@Alberth>nice supply yard, andy, hadn't see that one yet
13:14<Wolf01> :D
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13:20<andythenorth>is that HEQS?
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13:37<andythenorth>so anyone else got pypy?
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13:41<andythenorth>pypy3 to be precise
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>what for?
13:42<roidal_>that triggered a hilight on my client
13:42<roidal_>pypy is one of my nicks :P
13:42<roidal_>and no, iam using the standard CPython interpreter
13:43<andythenorth>for seeing how nmlc performs with different pythons
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13:43<andythenorth>nml compiler
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13:46<roidal_>A compiler from NML code to NFO and/or GRF files. – GRF is the file-format for TTD content?
13:46<roidal_>to be honest i never digged into the technical details about it
13:46<roidal_>does it contaim some sort of program-code?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>sort of
13:47<andythenorth>it contains a higher level language, borderline pseudo code
13:47<andythenorth>I don’t know the exact term, it’s somewhere between markup and a language
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>GRF is the bytecode, NFO is the assembler code and NML is the high level language
13:48<roidal_>and what exactly is handled by that bytecode?
13:48<roidal_>and does the grf-files contain content (graphics, ...) too?
13:49<andythenorth>there’s branching logic, and graphics
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>roidal_: the bytecode is a not-turing-complete language that basically can read a variable and then branch off into different cases. this can handle simple things like deciding which graphics to display for a vehicle, or more complex things like storing cargo and producing at different speeds and ratios for industries
13:51<andythenorth>what Eddi|zuHause said
13:51<frosch123>roidal_: grf contain decision trees to pick graphics and properties of stuff depending other stuff
13:53<roidal_>frosch123: and where are this graphics stored?
13:53<roidal_>and the NML-compiler is written in python?
13:53<roidal_>(python 3)
13:54<frosch123>grf is just a single file
13:54<frosch123>it contains everything
13:56<Mazur>Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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14:01<Milek7>can you reply to my last comment?
14:03<frosch123>what should i reply?
14:04<frosch123>settings should be consistent and not conflict or contradict each other
14:04<frosch123>i do not know any details about changes to the rating either
14:06<roidal_>hm, was GRF, NFO and NML developed by the openttd team, or undertaken from TTD?
14:06<frosch123>roidal_: i see at least 4 parties involved
14:07<frosch123>which overlap in various parts
14:07<frosch123>ttd has grf version 1, which only has graphics
14:07<Milek7>enabling new option only ignores rating when building
14:07<frosch123>ttdp extended it to contain decision trees
14:08<Milek7>and calculating still works, so this setting not contradict council attitude
14:08<frosch123>ottd extended it to version 2 containing 32bpp graphics and zoom levels
14:08<frosch123>nml was developed independently
14:08<frosch123>today everything that still exists is maintained by ottd devs
14:08<Milek7>but, if it is required i can add new option to council attitude
14:09<Milek7>which completly disables calculation
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14:11<roidal_>ah, i see
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>TTDPatch also invented the NFO language
14:12<roidal_>may i ask if there is some high-dpi mode planed? not only for the menus but for the whole game?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>whereas the NML inventors came from the OpenTTD community
14:12<frosch123>roidal_: isn't 4x zoom quite high-dpi?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>also, NFO and GRF existed before the OpenTTD project was even started
14:13<frosch123>it's too big on a fhd screen, so it should be fine on a qhd one
14:14<roidal_>maybe i should be more specific, i meant graphics with higher resolution (not color but pixels)?
14:14<roidal_>because on 4x zoom its know :D
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>4x zoom is pixels, has nothing to do with colours...
14:14<frosch123>roidal_: either you missed something since 2012, or i do not understand you
14:14<roidal_>Eddi|zuHause: the developement-history seems much more complicated as it looks from the first view
14:15<frosch123>roidal_: <- isn't that quite high dpi?
14:15<frosch123>for the most part of it
14:16<roidal_>frosch123: which graphic-files are used for that?
14:16<frosch123>that is from the unfinished/unreleased brix
14:16<roidal_>ah, nice
14:17<frosch123>there is also zbase (controversial), rawr, and some none-landscape things
14:21<Milek7>frosch123: what do you think about adding setting controlling bribe detect propability?
14:22<frosch123>it sounds like something 1 in 100000 users would care about
14:23<@Alberth>nah, much higher, it's a way around the town authorities :p
14:23<@Alberth>unless you only want to increase the probability, Milek7 :)
14:23<frosch123>Alberth: smatz had the idea to make the scenario editor work in multiplayer
14:24<frosch123>it would solve many issues
14:24<@Alberth>like what?
14:24<@Alberth>or is there a big need for MP scenario editing?
14:24<frosch123>no authority, rivers, town growth
14:25<frosch123>no industry closing
14:25<@Alberth>no companies
14:25<Milek7>that would be rather popular feature, as many people hate local authorities ;)
14:25<frosch123>so many cheaters?
14:26<andythenorth>unrestricted sandbox?
14:26<Milek7>currently there are many setting that can be considiered as cheating
14:27<Milek7>and nobody see problem in it
14:27<@Alberth>we do
14:27<@Alberth>we'd like to remove them, but users think they are required
14:27<Milek7>like disabling breakdowns
14:27<Milek7>and building on pause
14:28<@Alberth>disabling breakdown was in the original
14:28<Milek7>original developers were permitted to add cheats to settings, but openttd no?
14:29<roidal_>Alberth: on which settings are you thinking?
14:30<@Alberth>none in particular, or rather all
14:30<@Alberth>for every setting, there is a group of users that thinks it's essential :)
14:31<frosch123>roidal_: almost every release moves some settings to a more hidden place
14:31<roidal_>no, i mean, which settings you would like to remove?
14:32<roidal_>frosch123: whats the motivation behind that
14:32<frosch123>because noone, who knows what they do, switches them
14:33<frosch123>only clueless people try them, and then complain about some(the intentional) effect caused by it
14:33<frosch123>who would disable freeform edges?
14:33<frosch123>all that the setting causes is people complaining that they cannot set the map borders
14:33<frosch123>who would set max map height to 255?
14:34<Milek7>me :>
14:34<frosch123>the mapgen only generated to a certain size for a certani mapsizte anyway
14:34<frosch123>and setting the max height higher breaks arctic and tropic climate
14:34<frosch123>because snow and climate fail
14:34<Milek7>assuming that user is stupid is bad idea
14:34<roidal_>especially the map height got raised only some time ago?
14:34<Milek7>especially in open source project
14:35<frosch123>why? it is "open source", not "open user"
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: the idea is to reduce the amount of support needed, which fills the forums with useless threads and binds community time
14:35<frosch123>Milek7: anyway, good luck running the support hotline
14:36<frosch123>Milek7: in a company you hire a 1st level support
14:36<frosch123>Milek7: in open source the developers jump out of the window
14:36<frosch123>Milek7: if you have noticed, there are constantly news about the "bad attitude"/ranting in open source
14:37<frosch123>Milek7: that's because developers are directly confronted by users, and have no 1st level support protecting them
14:37<roidal_>on the other hand sometimes this produces much better results than with L1 support
14:38<roidal_>many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem
14:39<frosch123>roidal_: the best thing was when we removed to option to change grfs in game :) it transformed "dozen of bug reports" to "dozen of complains on the forums". which was a huge improvement, since the "community" could answer them :p
14:40<roidal_>i see
14:41<frosch123>[20:38] <roidal_> many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem <- you get good answers to unique questions. you get rants for common questions :)
14:41<@Alberth>hi hi V
14:41<@Alberth>10 days away, and the project is dead :p
14:41<V453000>I actually did stop lately
14:41<V453000>but yeah :D
14:42<frosch123>yup, was a great post :)
14:43<argoneus>tbh the map height should be 512
14:43<frosch123>yeah, that would add a completely new interpretation to map rotation
14:43<V453000>I think that as long as we have original acceleration and 2way PBS as defaults, any discussion about settings is pointless
14:44<frosch123>ah, true, i forgot about those
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure acceleration was already in my settings review oh so many years ago, and it wasn't accepted for some reason
14:48<andythenorth>ugh 1st level support
14:48<andythenorth>that’s a horrible idea :)
14:49<andythenorth>developers do support, bugs get fixed
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the whole point of 1st level support is to fetch out the cases that are not bugs at all.
14:55<andythenorth>what about the ones where it’s not a bug, but failure demand?
14:56<+glx>there are procedures to follow to detect a real problem :)
14:57<andythenorth>failure demand goes away faster if developers see it
14:57<frosch123>Milek7: roidal_: btw. it's not only on open source. the youtuber totalbiscuit quit community interaction this week for like the third time. everytime it's like him almost jumping out of a window
14:57<andythenorth>why spend money on support monkeys who can’t actually solve any problems
14:57<andythenorth>just to make the customer’s problem get resolved more slowly
14:57<frosch123>it applies to everything where someone is personally invested, and then gets confronted by a crowd with other opinions
14:58<frosch123>[20:57] <andythenorth> why spend money on support monkeys who can’t actually solve any problems <- it's for the cases where the developers cannot solve the problem either
14:59<andythenorth>seems like double handling
15:00<andythenorth>one case has a revenue cost paying non-value adding stuff perpetually to not actually solve problems
15:00<andythenorth>the other case accepts a lot of waste for some high-value developers, but pays off problems, reducing the total cost of them over time
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is a reason why "have you tried turning it off and on again?" is a running gag
15:02<andythenorth>I don’t do the support
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, not every injury needs a specialist doctor
15:02<andythenorth>but I’m not exactly armchair theorising either
15:02<andythenorth>back to pypy3
15:03<+glx>and a many customers call the support for something totally unrelated
15:03<andythenorth>FIRS compiles faster, but Iron Horse compiles much slower
15:03<andythenorth>and Road Hog won’t compile at all
15:03<andythenorth>Alberth: try it :)
15:03<roidal_>FIRS, Iron Horse and Road Hog = ?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, like the guy a few days ago here, who asked about a coop server
15:03<andythenorth>python 3.2, 3.4 and 3.5 are all much of a much
15:04<andythenorth>but pypy3 is highly variable compared to 3.x
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>and it took quite a while to figure out that he's talking about some completely unrelated game
15:04<andythenorth>I think chameleon is substantially slower in pypy3
15:04<@Alberth>firs, iron horse, and road hog are regularly discussed here :)
15:05<andythenorth>but nmlc I *think* is much faster, at least for some cases
15:05<andythenorth>hard to profile, a lot goes on in the compile
15:05<@Alberth>now the challenge to stay in those cases :p
15:05<andythenorth>with primed cache, FIRS compiles in about 28s with pypy3
15:05<andythenorth>compared to 50s with py3.x
15:06<roidal_>Alberth: now we know that i don't read regularly here :P
15:06<andythenorth>if I change code, the primed cache times stay around 30s
15:06<frosch123>roidal_: <- try that "dictionary"
15:06<andythenorth>if I change a png, it’s equivalent to destroying the cache
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you haven't got your dependencies right then
15:06<roidal_>andythenorth: the nmlc is written in python3?
15:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I don’t feed anything to the nmlc cache, it’s automatic
15:07<@Alberth>roidal_: well, it was python2, and converted to python3
15:07<roidal_>ah, ty again :D
15:08<roidal_>yes, most python-programms running more than a few seconds should benefit from the jit included in pypy
15:11<roidal_>most important
15:11<roidal_>python > perl!!! (flamewar start :D)
15:12<frosch123>not in this channel :p
15:12<frosch123>this is solid python ground
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>that flamewar is not going to find fruitful ground in here :p
15:12<frosch123>you only have chances for git vs hg
15:13<roidal_>frosch123 | this is solid python ground <- like that
15:14<frosch123>ocassionaly you can find a ruby guy
15:14<roidal_>ok, then
15:14<roidal_>to get a success
15:14<roidal_>git > hg
15:14<roidal_>*start to run*
15:14<frosch123>you better do :p
15:15<andythenorth>git won
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>git is terrible for people who don't already know git
15:15<Milek7>git! :D
15:15<andythenorth>game over
15:16<andythenorth>so how have I broken road hog / nmlc?
15:16<frosch123>gmae over
15:16<andythenorth>play again? Y | N
15:16<andythenorth>insert more coins
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15:17<andythenorth>this food processor accepts fruit and nuts
15:17<andythenorth>I should add cocoa beans
15:17<andythenorth>and produce chocolate
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15:17*andythenorth don’t even like fruit + nut
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>"student food"
15:18<frosch123>roidal_: sed > vim
15:18<Milek7>so no chances for bribe proability option?
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>i watched a contest once: "which is better? vim or emacs?"... and *SPOILER* sed won
15:19<roidal_>frosch123: did you mean emacs > vim?
15:19<roidal_>i got it...
15:20<roidal_>how was that?
15:20<frosch123>roidal_: emacs and perl are weird. i never meet people who use either of them
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: the general consensus is that there are way too many options...
15:20<roidal_>church of emacs
15:20<roidal_>and cult of vi?
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>the knights who use vi?
15:21<roidal_>Eddi|zuHause: from germany?
15:21<frosch123>roidal_: <- that's about my only contact with perl
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>roidal_: why?
15:22<frosch123>roidal_: eddi is from home
15:22<roidal_>'zuHause' -> german :>
15:22<roidal_>frosch123: thats nice! :D
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15:23<@Alberth>could start using $ in Java identifiers :p
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>roidal_: if you pick a random person from the nick list, you have about 1/3 chance he's german...
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe 1/4
15:24<roidal_>the chance on your nick seems to be greater
15:28<roidal_>don't wanted to interupt the tries to start a flamewar ;)
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15:31<Milek7>Eddi|zuHause: many options is good
15:32<Milek7>anyone can set to that setting which he likes
15:32<Wolf01>uhm, V453000, I just found your spring bridge... in an anime
15:35<argoneus>Wolf01 what anime
15:35<Wolf01>owarimonogatari, ep9
15:35<argoneus>ew, gatari
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: settings generally divide the population in 3 parts: 1) people who want to enable the setting, 2) people who want to disable the setting, and 3) people who get confused about the overwhelming number of settings they don't understand
15:45<Milek7>bribing detection propability is not any confusing setting
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: and as the size of #1/#3 or #2/#3 approaches zero, the setting becomes useless
15:45<Milek7>more confusing is for example acceleration model
15:46<Milek7>and "original" model is complete nonsense
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>but that is not an argument FOR your setting
15:47<Milek7>if you don't want new simple setting, why for example you not remove all settings, because they are only confusing new pepole?
15:49<andythenorth>what new setting is wanted?
15:49<Milek7>bribe detection propability
15:50<andythenorth>just patch it to what you want and recompile
15:50<andythenorth>no setting needed
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: because some settings actually do divide the community fairly evenly into #1 and #2 categories
15:51<Milek7>but i want to use it on multiplayer
15:51<Milek7>and desyncing when bribe is detected on client is not good idea :D
15:52<Milek7>it can be only in configuration file
15:52<Milek7>it dosen't must be in gui
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: you're still not having a very strong argument, against a development community that gets increasingly conservative
15:53<Milek7>but. it. is. one. small. setting.
15:54<Milek7>there is a much more completly useless settings
15:54<andythenorth>Milek7: you just need someone with commit rights to sponsor it for you :)
15:54<andythenorth>these things never happen by convincing someone who is opposed via argument
15:54<roidal_>maybe offering a donation for that setting? :D
15:54<Milek7>bribe? :>
15:55<andythenorth>roll a dice :P
15:55<roidal_>however you want to call it
15:55<andythenorth>if you get a 6, your setting is allowed
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16:00<@Rubidium>just put it differently, which constants in OpenTTD's code should not be a setting?
16:02<frosch123>you can increase the chance by lining out a convincing concept, which is not just "this setting disabled something which i don't like, and i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that"
16:03<Milek7>what do you mean by " i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that"?
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16:05<Wolf01>V453000, argoneus, found it:
16:06<@Alberth>ha, great find :)
16:07<roidal_>maybe such settings should be changeable via the console?
16:08<roidal_>so there is no visible option for inexperienced players
16:08<roidal_>but its changeable for those who know what they do?
16:09<roidal_>or maybe a hidden menu like the cheats-menu?
16:09<frosch>roidal_: there exists already a cheat which does essentially the same
16:09<frosch>just that cheats are not allowed in mulitplayer
16:09<Milek7>cheat changing bribe detect propability?
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16:10<Milek7>there is magic bulldozer, but is does many other things than destroying city buildings
16:10<Milek7>and bribing requires cash
16:11<frosch>just plant trees then
16:11<Milek7>and cannot be used to raise rating above excellent
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16:12<Milek7>there is sometimes no free space for trees
16:12<frosch>then remove the trees first
16:13<frosch>he, you wanted a cheat :p
16:14<frosch>ok, it's no cheat, just an exploit
16:14<andythenorth>town won’t let me build my station
16:14<andythenorth>I have annoyed them :(
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted that exploit fixed like 10 years ago...
16:14<frosch>andythenorth: show them their mistake, and grow another town
16:15<andythenorth>I am planting trees
16:15<Milek7>but, in another town there is the same thinking local authority ;)
16:15<andythenorth>first time it’s happened in this game
16:15<andythenorth>usually I just have high ratings
16:15<andythenorth>low ratings are mostly only a problem if you’ve screwed up
16:20<andythenorth>I guess I screwed up :(
16:20<frosch>fund some trees, until it i s enough to build two drive-through road stops
16:20<frosch>then run a bus service
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16:22<andythenorth>silly old andythenorth
16:22<andythenorth>I didn’t do that
16:22<andythenorth>instead I bulldozed lots of land around the town
16:22<andythenorth>for routes
16:22<andythenorth>but didn’t serve the town
16:22*andythenorth is such a noob
16:25<frosch>oh my, it's even easier than i remembered
16:25<frosch>just build 20 road stops in a row, and send two buses in a circle
16:25<frosch>you should get to outstanding in less than a year
16:26<andythenorth>ha ha
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i generally build a bus or tram network in a town before doing anything else
16:27<andythenorth>after a while
16:27<andythenorth>Busy Bee should prospect some industries
16:27<andythenorth>Alberth: ^
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>and that's why my suggestion to fix the tree explioit is simply: forbid destroying trees if the rating is <fairly high>
16:27<andythenorth>how would I build routes :o
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16:27<Eddi|zuHause>then you can still get out of the situation by placing bus stops
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>like, find an empty tile or just build on the roads
16:28<andythenorth>can’t build train lines?
16:28<andythenorth>I’d definitely want a setting for that :P
16:29<@Alberth>simpler solution would be to reduce impact of adding trees
16:29<frosch>you just need many stations
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, it would allow for a new balancing pass where the impact of destroying trees could be lowered
16:29<frosch>you can also build 1x1 train stations :p
16:29<frosch>just the roads get into the way
16:29<frosch>so, yeah, drive-through roadstops are definitely a cheat
16:29<frosch>only added to easily increase town rating
16:29<@Alberth>andythenorth: would it still be busy bee?
16:29<andythenorth>Alberth: dunno :)
16:29<andythenorth>builder bee
16:30<andythenorth>it wouldn’t be very often
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, i would add a town rating effect to raising/lowering terrain
16:30<andythenorth>I’m 30 years in, and increasingly the goals are harder to meet
16:30<@Alberth>why would it do that?
16:30<andythenorth>I’ve already used a lot of the primaries
16:31<andythenorth>I could re-route :)
16:31<andythenorth>that seems weird though
16:31<@Alberth>you could build your own new industries :p
16:31<andythenorth>I just did
16:31<andythenorth>‘problem’ solved
16:31<andythenorth>most ideas die young :P
16:32<@Alberth>script building industries could be fun, but it needs a bigger twist then, imho
16:32<andythenorth>‘invalid’ is my favourite kind of development
16:32<andythenorth>‘no’ is the best feature :P
16:32<@Alberth>tell that to your customers :p
16:35<@Alberth>I wonder if you could steer BB more towards a less random map
16:35<@Alberth>now it just spreads evenly everywhere
16:36<andythenorth>I think that would be ‘Expand the Frontier Bee’ or something
16:36<andythenorth>“North to South Bee”
16:36<andythenorth>I am almost entirely only building routes to goals
16:36<@Alberth>a bit like your farm clusters, but at a bigger scale
16:36<andythenorth>except for a few supplies
16:36<andythenorth>and eventually….the network starts to look connected
16:36<@Alberth>eg coal in the north, steel in the center
16:37<andythenorth>yeah, I would like that as an alternative
16:37<andythenorth>‘Region Bee'
16:37<andythenorth>‘Scenario Bee’ :P
16:37<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon had seed points in the map
16:37<andythenorth>so it was random, but highly weighted
16:37<andythenorth>could be done in newgrf, but that’s too prescriptive
16:38<@Alberth>maybe get everything routed to one destination :p
16:39<@Alberth>didn't play that for a long time, should try it again
16:41<andythenorth>it’s good
16:41<andythenorth>needs multiple Valleys
16:44<andythenorth>SV probably awesome with FIRS Arctic Basic, if the cargo is Vehicle Parts
16:45<frosch>assuming all cargo labels use 4 uppercase letters (plus _), we could add four settings to sv to force a cargo :p
16:45<_dp_>I would definitely disable authority in claimed town in cb
16:45<frosch>but well, may become boring if it is not random
16:46<andythenorth>frosch: that would be…nice
16:46<_dp_>because it confuses new players and annoys old ones)
16:46<andythenorth>dunno, I usually start a game knowing what I want
16:46<frosch>_dp_: what's the point? it f'ing easy to increase the rating. you could as well disable money
16:47<_dp_>frosch, many players don't know how to do it, they think they screwed up and leave game
16:47<_dp_>and for pros time is very valuable
16:47*andythenorth is noob
16:47<_dp_>spending it to fight stupid authority is not fun
16:47<_dp_>money is also
16:47<andythenorth>been playing since 2008, and TTD when a kid
16:47<andythenorth>still noob
16:48<andythenorth>grrr, Squid Ate FISH is bloody awful
16:48<frosch>a "pro" knows the game deals with the rules
16:48<andythenorth>ships need work
16:48*andythenorth thinks
16:49<_dp_>yeah, but that's not fun
16:49<frosch>well, back to 1st level support
16:49<_dp_>cb has fine mechanics on its own and doesn't need that authority
16:49<frosch>can we hire them from blizzard?
16:49<andythenorth>you know how [some] newgrf authors obsess about train loading time?
16:49<andythenorth>and make it realistic
16:49<frosch>reaper openings are so boring and annoying to deal with
16:49<frosch>i would rather spend the time on building drones
16:49<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:50<andythenorth>loading times might actually matter for ships
16:50<frosch>andythenorth: the reverse?
16:50<andythenorth>or that too
16:50<frosch>infinite many ships can load in parallel, so loading time does not matter at all?
16:50<andythenorth>well yes
16:50<andythenorth>ship model progression is hard
16:51<andythenorth>speed is ok
16:51<andythenorth>I’ve tried size, it’s crap
16:51<andythenorth>so only speed
16:51<andythenorth>no HP, no TE, running cost is blah
16:51<andythenorth>and loading speed isn’t shown
16:51<andythenorth>likelihood of sinking
16:51<frosch>size is for visuals, so you do not have to use multipel ships over each other :p
16:51<andythenorth>size / capacity /s :P
16:52<frosch>capacity and speed is kind of the same
16:52<frosch>but yes, ships are pretty one-dimensional
16:52<frosch>there is only cargo per time
16:52<frosch>because ships move independent from each other
16:53<andythenorth>so speed is the only useful dimension?
16:53<andythenorth>and, in a realistic-ish set, steam vs. non-steam
16:53<frosch>assuming you do not care about payment for delivery speed (which is bad for ships anyway), it's just about amount per time
16:53<frosch>which you can get by increasing capacity, speed, or number of ships
16:53<andythenorth>I just want ships matched to train sizes :P
16:53<frosch>"number of ships" is ugly, if they stack
16:53<frosch>capacity and speed does not seem to make a difference, does it?
16:54<andythenorth>no and yes
16:54<andythenorth>depends how frequently you want to produce at a secondary industry
16:54<andythenorth>and how much it annoys you to have n of the smallest ship, where n is increasingly a large number
16:54<andythenorth>logically, all ships should be 8t and go 30mph
16:54<andythenorth>that is the most logical choice
16:55<frosch>yes, that means your goal is to run 5 (?) ships on every route
16:55<andythenorth>and you build 100 instead of one 800t ship
16:55<frosch>you can achieve that by picking the ship model with matching amount/time
16:55<andythenorth>hmm you have called it close :P
16:55<andythenorth>I usually run 3-4 ships on a route
16:55<andythenorth>1 loading, 1 travelling to destination, 1 unloading, 1 returning
16:56<frosch>500 tons/month production, pick a ship that has 100 tons/month transport on the required distance
16:56<frosch>it can be a slow ship with high capacity, or a fast ship with lower capacity. no difference between them
16:57<andythenorth>depends if you’re doing transfers
16:57<frosch>if you want to go "realistic" you pick a rather fixed speed for all ships, and only vary capacity
16:57<frosch>so, i see nothign wrong with your iniital strategy
16:57<andythenorth>if your incoming train fills 75% of a ship vs 100%, you double the route time for the cargo
16:57<frosch>capacity is the only property for ships
16:58<_dp_>btw, what makes authority really annoying in cb is that it kinda snowballs... you need to build trees to get it up but then you need to build roads over those trees making it even worse
16:58<frosch>andythenorth: double? if you have 5 ships you can at most increase it by 20%
16:58<andythenorth>frosch: conclusion seems right, but boring :)
16:58<frosch>or you have a ship too much
16:58<andythenorth>I want to keep capacity same for each model at a given size
16:58<andythenorth>so what to progress?
16:58<_dp_>so once you rating drops below building threshold it's really hard to get it back
16:58<frosch>_dp_: so just build busstops inbetween
16:59<frosch>as said, outstanding in less than a year, with a few busstops and busses
16:59<andythenorth>Road Hog offers minimal capacity increase, or none, some speed increase, and substantial HP increase
16:59<_dp_>there is certain layout for bus stops, if you make more it screws up everything
17:00<_dp_>also rvs are limited
17:00<frosch>andythenorth: with one property there is no progress
17:00<frosch>andythenorth: you pick the ship to match the amount/time requirement for the route. once you got that, there is no progress
17:01<frosch>andythenorth: the only thing you could do is to restrict large/fast ships to later years, so in early years you can only serve short distances or you have to build a lot of ships
17:02<_dp_>and few months is a lot of time, sometimes it's not even worth continuing game if deliveries were missed for few months
17:02<andythenorth>I somewhat did that
17:02<andythenorth>it’s ok, ish
17:03<andythenorth>I am minded to just accept that ships are boring
17:03<andythenorth>but maybe set loading speed faster on modern ships
17:03<andythenorth>total realisms :P
17:03<frosch>that is likely a valid conclusion :p
17:03<andythenorth>players won’t know about loading speed, but eh
17:03<andythenorth>they don’t know about payment bonus on refrigerated ship either :P
17:03<frosch>something with only "one property" is likely boring, you cannot weight different aspects
17:04<andythenorth>the vehicle sets I’m doing are predicated on “there’s one obvious best choice"
17:04<frosch>andythenorth: but ok, "loading" speed actually benefits the "do not stack ships"
17:04<frosch>so, i think it's good
17:04<andythenorth>yeah, I’ll have to just put it in the docs :P
17:04<andythenorth>I think ships should have a safety factor :P
17:05<andythenorth>perhaps that’s breakdowns
17:05<andythenorth>which I don’t use
17:05<frosch>they have a 20% rating bonus at stations
17:05<frosch>which you don't use :p
17:05<andythenorth>I don’t use that silly FIRS station rating cheat any more
17:05<andythenorth>it’s still there, but I never turn it on
17:05<andythenorth>I wanted it because I was playing NARS 2 ‘realistically
17:06<andythenorth>20 or 30 tile freight trains, single-line railroads
17:06<andythenorth>cross half the map, 5000 or 10000t trains
17:06<frosch>you can run NARS with 20 tile tranis?
17:06<frosch>i recall pikka trains to be quite underpowered. is NARS an exception, or did you attach 10 engines?
17:07<andythenorth>attach many engines of course :)
17:07<andythenorth>and freight weight 1
17:07<andythenorth>not the silly high settings
17:07<andythenorth>if RVs would learn to find depots, I’d turn breakdowns back on
17:07<andythenorth>but I got bored of setting explicit orders
17:07<andythenorth>and watching RVs drive round in circles unable to find depots
17:07<frosch>well, i always play in hilly or mountanious, and pikka's train never fit my needs
17:08<andythenorth>you use OGFX?
17:08<frosch>if you have build "too many" serpentines, you do not have enough space for enough tracks
17:08<frosch>as baseset? yes
17:08<andythenorth>I mean the + grfs
17:09<frosch>i think i played ogfx+trains a lot before nuts was around
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17:10<andythenorth>sinking ships
17:10<frosch>it was the only trainset with refitting that was not realism themed :p
17:10<andythenorth>tractive effort!
17:10<frosch>oh, and autorefit
17:10<frosch>i played one toyland game with autorefit
17:10<frosch>because there was candyfloss, toffee and sugar right next to each other
17:11<frosch>it's the only time i could make use of autorefit
17:11<frosch>because nuts did not allow it
17:11<frosch>maybe i should switch back to ogfx+trains :p
17:11<frosch>oh, and i had a ship route for sweets
17:12<andythenorth>ogfx+trains was on coop servers when I played
17:12<andythenorth>I enjoyed the simplicity
17:12<frosch>because it surpassed the cargo amount that makes sense to transport on a mixed cargo train track
17:12<andythenorth>mostly there is one obvious engine choice, and easy wagon choices
17:12<andythenorth>Iron Horse roster probably looks quite similar to ogfx+trains, in capacities, power etc
17:13<frosch>is iron horse company coloured?
17:13<frosch>CC became boring
17:15<frosch>maybe i should just hack my ottd locally to apply random cc to all wagons
17:15<frosch>well, determintic random, not blinking :p
17:15<andythenorth>make a setting :P
17:15<andythenorth>Iron Horse randomises 1CC / 2CC wagons, but that’s all
17:15<frosch>source patches are the more convincing setting :)
17:15<andythenorth>there was idea to add more random colour to wagons, but eh
17:16<frosch>i could also patch iron horse
17:16<frosch>though i recall i wanted to patch firs :p
17:16<andythenorth>it’s pixa recolouring of wagons, so it’s pretty trivial :P
17:16<andythenorth>no drawing needed
17:16<andythenorth>just add more colour maps
17:16<frosch>andythenorth: nah, i would add a recolouring callback, that randomly picks one of the CC or an unrelated colour
17:17<frosch>like: some of the trains are CC, but some are not
17:17<andythenorth>would you tie it to the silly company colours UI? :P
17:17<andythenorth>one day I should fix that silly UI
17:17<frosch>no, that ui insults me
17:18<frosch>it has 4 liveries for pax trains, but 1 for cargo
17:18<frosch>and i never transport pax
17:18<andythenorth>you don’t like selecitng a checkbox before using a UI control? :P
17:18<frosch>except with busses to boost towns
17:18<andythenorth>extend it to all the installed cargos?
17:18<andythenorth>coal: 1cc, 2cc
17:18<andythenorth>fish: 1cc, 2cc
17:18<andythenorth>all with useful checkboxes
17:19<frosch>andythenorth: i believe in the rule "a game should not look like excel"
17:19<andythenorth>I think we need more excel, not less
17:19<andythenorth>and a ribbon
17:20<frosch>ribbons turned out to be quite hotkey friendly
17:20<frosch>that actually impressed me
17:20<frosch>on the surface it looks like for dummies, but you can actually use them efficiently
17:21<frosch>maybe vim should add ribbons
17:22<frosch>it's like, dummies use touchscreens, pros use keyboard, noone needs a mouse :p
17:22<andythenorth>we need a ribbon in OpenTTD
17:23<frosch>ottd does not have enough useful functions
17:23<frosch>how many of the buttons in the menu do you actually use?
17:23<frosch>i get away with 10 hotkeys or so
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>what should i imagine under the term "ribbon"?
17:24<frosch>though i have to select "tram" once per game
17:24<frosch>there is no hotkey to switch roadtype
17:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tabbed toolbar
17:24<andythenorth>I had to look it up tbh
17:24<andythenorth>frosch: no there is not :(
17:24<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: the stuff that replaced the menu starting with office 2003
17:24<andythenorth>I have shift-A for road, but can’t switch tram / not tram
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch: that explanation did not help
17:25<andythenorth>huh, nuts has railtypes included :O
17:25<andythenorth>I thought that was forbidden
17:25<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: it's the answer to "you cannot use pulldown menus with a touchscreen"
17:26<_dp_>pff, I'm out of keys on keybord for hotkeys %)
17:26<andythenorth>more modifiers :P
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>so, "giant overloaded toolbar"
17:26<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: but the impressive thing is that they also work for hotkeys, better than a pulldown menu
17:26<andythenorth>does the ribbon actually switch context to chosen tool?
17:27<andythenorth>when you use a hotkey
17:27<andythenorth>does it switch to the appropriate tab
17:28<frosch>there are hotkeys for specific functions
17:28<frosch>and there are hotkeys to navigate the ribbon
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i grew up with wordperfect... it had a nice cheatsheet about all the Fx hotkeys
17:29*andythenorth should to bed
17:29<frosch>the former are essentially the same as in classic menus
17:29<andythenorth>frosch: what did you need to patch in FIRS? :P
17:29<frosch>the latter are better, because the last tab remains active
17:29<frosch>andythenorth: parameters for booster cargos, amount required and effect
17:30<andythenorth>oh that :P
17:30<andythenorth>probably not hard, the use of them is all templated
17:31<frosch>yeah, the only problem is that i got the eddi-illness
17:31<frosch>and only ever talk about stuff
17:31<frosch>is it call "eddithis"?
17:32<frosch>yeah, no "h"
17:33<andythenorth>if you leave it, I’ll eventually do it
17:34<andythenorth>can I have a settng to configure breakdowns per vehicle type?
17:34<andythenorth>so I can have useless ships?
17:35<andythenorth>ship breakdowns are silly anyway, averaged over enough time they’re equivalent to speed
17:35<andythenorth>they don’t block networks
17:36<frosch>hehe, only one property :p
17:36<andythenorth>unreliable ship ~= slow ship
17:36<andythenorth>and more smoke
17:36<andythenorth>can do that in newgrf :P
17:37<frosch>same for aircraft
17:37<andythenorth>I only have 2 or 3 generations of ships anyway, dunno why I’m worrying about progression
17:37<frosch>also noone likes aircraft
17:37<andythenorth>I do
17:37<andythenorth>but same as ships
17:37<andythenorth>use AV9: buy Pikka’s equivalent of dakota (DC3)
17:37<andythenorth>use that everywhere
17:38<andythenorth>aircraft only have two properties: speed, and szie
17:38<andythenorth>size *
17:38<andythenorth>due to crashing
17:38<frosch>they only have "size"
17:38<frosch>speed in air does not matter
17:39<andythenorth>I forgot capacity
17:39<frosch>"size" havitly affects airport throughput
17:39<frosch>well, yes, with "size" i mean "capacity":)
17:39<andythenorth>I was ambigious :P
17:39<_dp_>they only have one bool "is or is not A21" :p
17:39<andythenorth>crashing also heavily affects airport throughput
17:39<_dp_>dunno why other aircrafts exist in game xD
17:39<frosch>as noob i always build the condorde, because it was soo fast, and i thought it woudl transport more
17:40<andythenorth>AV9: Avix Alfa everywhere
17:40<andythenorth>except oil rigs
17:40<frosch>then i discovered that the biggest plane is just better
17:40<frosch>and that for some reason late game planes become smaller again
17:40<frosch>which was an anti-progression
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>i noticed that even as a noob
17:41<andythenorth>because realism
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>i never had a plane to replace my 747 with
17:41<andythenorth>the planes were literally like they’re copied from a boeing catalogue
17:41<andythenorth>zero gameplay weighting
17:41<andythenorth>the trains are quite well chosen
17:42<frosch>andythenorth: looks like av9 removed my favorite engine
17:42*andythenorth recommends AV9 strongly
17:42<andythenorth>no zellepin?
17:42<andythenorth>pikka got bored of my zellepin jokes, and punished me for them
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>oil-transporting zeppelin
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>the most realistic feature ever!!
17:43<frosch>andythenorth: stratocruiser is my favorite
17:43<Hiddenfunstuff>Why not mercury zeppelin?
17:44<andythenorth>so many planes in AV8
17:44<frosch>but most of them look different
17:44<frosch>which is what matters, doesn't it?
17:45<frosch>well, maybe only the early ones
17:45<andythenorth>ok the stratocruise is nice
17:45<andythenorth>looks matter, but not enough to have 100 planes :P
17:46*andythenorth must to sleep
17:46<frosch>oh my, more mhl bugs...
17:47<frosch>the height adjustment does not trigger the aircraft inclination
17:47<andythenorth>they just float up, no?
17:47<frosch>when an aircraft takes off, it is first inclined, then turn horizontal, but keeps ascending
17:48<frosch>i should fork ottd 1.4 :p
17:48<andythenorth>climbing without nose pitch
17:48<andythenorth>fork ottd 0.5
17:48<andythenorth>that was a classic release
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>interesting that that never came up in 5 years of development
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not like the height hysteresis never was under discussion
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22:48<Pikkaphone>yes but
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23:12<Mazur>Whose butt?
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 30 00:00:27 2016