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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-01-31

---Logopened Sun Jan 31 00:00:28 2016
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05:33<@Alberth>hi hi
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07:01<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:07<frosch123>oh, my... i was looking for a forum post i thought i made last year
07:07<frosch123>turned out it was an irc conversation in 2012
07:16<@Alberth>how time flies when having fun?
07:24<argoneus>but does time have wings
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07:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe time floats?
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08:08<argoneus>why not an int
08:28<@Alberth>it wouldn't float
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08:34<argoneus>it would div though
08:38<frosch123>andythenorth: i have been exploring the food chain
08:38<frosch123>i think flour mill and food processing plant would benefit, if they gave a bonus to all input cargos delivered
08:39<Mazur>I'm too integer to join in the cheap puns.
08:39<frosch123>to give a reason to transport fruit to different places
08:40<frosch123>currently there are only role-play reasons to produce alcohol at all
08:40<Mazur>Annie Whey, PC's up, installed and running.
08:40<frosch123>based on the game mechanics alone, you could just as well only produce food
08:40<andythenorth>frosch123: they don’t combine currently?
08:40*andythenorth could change that
08:41<frosch123>the text only says man supplies
08:41<frosch123>i did not check the code :p
08:41<andythenorth>certainly food processor needs something
08:41<andythenorth>it doesn’t even have man. supplies
08:42<andythenorth>I only play with GS, so I am not a good judge of gameplay without a GS :)
08:42<andythenorth>I find FIRS ‘big’ economies totally overwhelming without GS
08:43<frosch123>i am only playing iahc :p i never played full firs beyond a few minutes
08:43<andythenorth>30 cargos is too much
08:45<frosch123>currently i have the flowchart constantly open on the second screen :p
08:45<andythenorth>much better with Busy Bee :P
08:45<andythenorth>just look at the cargo, find nearest source on the map
08:46<andythenorth>we need more GS choices :)
08:46<frosch123>i just started in the top-left of the flow chart :p
08:48<andythenorth>maybe a GS could do same :P
09:33<Wolf01>I found my new love... Windward
09:34<Wolf01>I was developing a game like that (in 2D) about 10 years ago... never did more than the galeon movement
09:35<argoneus>Wolf01: >no first person view
09:35<Wolf01>it's moddable
09:35<argoneus>all those negative reviews
09:35<argoneus>seems like the devs fucked up big time
09:38<debdog>uh, it's like pirates. was looking for such a thing for years
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i got windward for cheap, but i'm not sure it's my type of game
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't write anything negative about the game, though... seems fine
10:41<Wolf01>I'm looking on how to mod it to show the resources on the screen instead of the inventory only... not that I don't have enough wood for repairs at any time, but just to be sure to keep everything under control
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>i was driving around running errands and trading, but i don't quite see what the long term aim is
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>pirates kinda get nasty outside your own starting territory
10:44<Wolf01>conquest the whole map
10:44<Wolf01>I just finished to purge pirates from the second area
10:45<frosch123>andythenorth: i think it's weird that the edibles tank car can transport food, but not alcohol
10:46<frosch123>hmm, oh wait... it can
10:46<frosch123>i assume the edibles tank car only becomes available later
10:46<frosch123>so when i started the alcohol route it wasn't available
10:47<V453000>universal wagon ftw
10:47<frosch123>universal wagon always looked stupid to me
10:47<frosch123>never used it
10:47<V453000>well functionally since you can be sure that you can load any cargo at any point of the game ... :)
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>the game needs an option to make multiple vehicles available simultaneously
10:48<frosch123>i think we have a spec for that
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>we discussed a few ways to do it, but i'm not sure we ever settled on one thing
10:49<frosch123>it's along of: modify the randomisation so that it does not alter the introduction order
10:50<andythenorth>edibles tank car could be made available earlier
10:50<andythenorth>early in game, you just use open cars for all things
10:50<V453000>I am pretty sure I already requested such spec multiple times
10:50<frosch123>basically, sort all wagons by newgrf intro date, then add randomness preserving order, and assigning the same randomness to same intro dates
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>so you just need a "scramble" function that takes an intro date, and deterministically adds a random value to it
10:51<frosch123>V453000: usually the realism fools ruined all motivation to even start coding
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>so the same number put into it will always be the same number coming out, but which number is coming out is random
10:52<V453000>not surprising :D
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i also was looking for a way to combine multiple vehicles into one prototype offer
10:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, a monotone transformation, that deviates from the identify only in some limited interval
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it doesn't even need to be monotone
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>just same value stays together as a group
10:53<frosch123>if it shall preserve order, it needs to be
10:54<frosch123>but yes, using the same info for preview could work
10:55<frosch123>yes, my stockyard station is called "horse market" \o/
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>industry station names need a range of random names, not just one single one
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>the "witty" FIRS names get boring after the fifth time
10:57<frosch123>huh? did you play with them? :p
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>no :p
10:58<andythenorth>I just accept them as what they are
10:58<andythenorth>a list would be better than a single value mind you
10:58<frosch123>yes, but is a boring thing to add
10:59<andythenorth>my €0.02 on vehicle introduction, I made it a non-problem by designing set differently
11:00<andythenorth>I would rather see tech levels, and an API for GS :P
11:00<andythenorth> something with gameplay value
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound like something anybody would implement
11:01<andythenorth>that’s what we said about GS, for years
11:01<andythenorth>meanwhile, new roads sounds just like something someone would implement
11:08<frosch123>andythenorth: oh, and you need to convince danmack to draw graphics for fruit/maize
11:09<frosch123>also, why can hopper cars not transport maize?
11:10<andythenorth>because I am awkward
11:10<andythenorth>no other reason
11:10<andythenorth>it’s not a realism thing
11:13<frosch123>comparing iron horse with nuts is weird :)
11:13<frosch123>iron horse has more interesting wagons, nuts has more interesting cargo graphics
11:23<frosch123>hmm, we need to fix drawing of articulated vehicles at the cursor :p
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11:35<andythenorth>V should load my wagons :P
11:35<andythenorth>I didn’t get to that yet
11:36<andythenorth>too many sets
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11:48<V453000>haha :D
11:48<V453000>yeah I am hoping to make nicer wagons with my next train set
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11:53<V453000>no generations, focus no few but nice things
11:59<frosch123>hmm, "reefer car", yet another american name :p
12:03<Wolf01>going out... third time this week
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12:08<frosch123>bah, iron horse fooled me :p
12:08<frosch123>i forgot to enable wagon removal
12:09<andythenorth>all the names are american
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if there only were a way to translate a set.
12:09<andythenorth>if only
12:10<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i selected traditional english
12:11<andythenorth>it’s wide open for someone to ask me to do en-uk and en-us :P
12:11<andythenorth>I don’t like the twee english uk terms :P
12:18<frosch123>do i now electrify my tracks? the first electric engine is so op
12:25<V453000>road crossings for maglev done :>
12:25<V453000>rendering time
12:25<V453000>see you in a year XD
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>i generally end up with around 50% electrified
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13:39<andythenorth>frosch123: until 1990s or so, electric is a gameplay-neutral choice imho
13:39<andythenorth>for this roster anyway
13:41<frosch123>the stats in iron horse show the same weirdness as most non-nuts sets
13:41<frosch123>there are fast engines and engines with high te
13:41<frosch123>but for some reason the high te have very little power
13:41<frosch123>which makes the fast engines perform better than the high te in almost all cases
13:43<andythenorth>which ones?
13:44<andythenorth>frosch123: wagon speed limits disabled? o_O
13:44*andythenorth is curious
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13:47<frosch123>the very first 4-4-0 and 0-6-0
13:47<frosch123>i don't think there is any usecase for the 0-6-0
13:47<andythenorth>given the wagon speed limits are 65mph at that time
13:48<frosch123>while the 4-4-2 is introduced like 5 years after the 0-10-0 it is way better
13:48<frosch123>ok, i played without wagon speed limits
13:48<andythenorth>the 0-10-0 has only one purpose, going over mountains with freight
13:48<andythenorth>otherwise it’s junk
13:48<andythenorth>it nearly got removed, but eh
13:49<andythenorth>I’ve tried making the perfectly minimal set with no rough edges, and it’s boring
13:49<frosch123>i think, if an engine is slower, it should at least have more power :p
13:50<andythenorth>I could increase it
13:50<andythenorth>it’s already unrealistic for HP, steam engines aren’t really measured in HP
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13:51<andythenorth>so the idea is for any given time, 1 freight engine, 1 pax / fast freight engine, 1 local engine, and 1 oddball
13:52<andythenorth>in later game the freight engines have higher TE *and* higher power
13:52<andythenorth>but in early game, the pax engines are higher powered than freight
13:52<andythenorth>this is what you’re noticing as odd?
13:54<frosch123>yes, i am only at 1925
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, one would imagine that an engine of the same size will have the same power at the same time, no matter which transmission ratio is used
13:58<andythenorth>I am not so worried about that, more interested in there being obvious choices
13:59<andythenorth>but I never considered the case without wagon speed limits :P
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, no wagonspeedlimits will always render half the engines useless
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's no way around that
14:06<andythenorth>that is a useful point
14:06<andythenorth>‘freight engine’ only makes sense if you have wagon speed limits
14:06<andythenorth>or does it? o_O
14:07<frosch123>huh? no
14:07<frosch123>it is the other way around
14:07<frosch123>wagon speed limits enabled makes the engines useless
14:07<frosch123>the point of freight engines is that they acutally reach their speed limit with cargo
14:08<frosch123>if you enable wagon speed limits then also non-freight engines reach that limited speed
14:09<andythenorth>but why would you pick a slower engine?
14:09<frosch123>freight engines should reach a slower speed in less time
14:09<andythenorth>you’d always pick the fastest engine, given unlimited wagons
14:09<andythenorth>you / me /s
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think in CETS the balance point was supposed to be the running cost. the faster engine will cost more by something like maxspeed^2
14:09<andythenorth>ah :)
14:09<andythenorth>well running cost is ~irrelevant
14:09<frosch123>andythenorth: no, i pick the engine that reaches the fastest actual speed, which is lower than the max speed
14:10<frosch123>in my games trains usually take 20 tiles to reach max speed, or sometimes even only on downhill
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, running cost by actual speed might be possible, but rather pointless for the amount of work
14:10<andythenorth>add another engine? o_O
14:10<frosch123>freight engines reach their max speed faster, non-freight engines don't reach their speed limit at all or only downhill
14:11*andythenorth should test some on hills
14:11<frosch123>andythenorth: the point is, when i use the 4-4-2 for freight, it does not reach its max speed, but it is still faster than the freight engines
14:12<andythenorth>what freight weight multiplier is set?
14:12<frosch123>i was said to use 1
14:12*andythenorth just trying to understand all the possible variables
14:12<andythenorth>frosch123: prepared to use the game date cheat to look at the later roster? o_O
14:12<andythenorth>you might have convinced me that the early roster is borked
14:13<frosch123>i don't think that works :p i only notice such things during gameplay
14:13<frosch123>not when fastforwarding :)
14:14<andythenorth>there are two engines around 1935 which _should_ be more obviously balanced pax / freight
14:17<andythenorth>yeah, without wagon speed limits, you’d always choose the first 2 pax engines over first 2 freight, every time
14:17<frosch123>2-8-2 and 4-8-0 look good
14:18<frosch123>"raven" still appears strong compared to everything else, but maybe that is ok since it requires electrified rails only for itself
14:19<andythenorth>it’s a no-op for gameplay :P
14:19<andythenorth>you get a better engine, but have to electrify everything
14:21<andythenorth>I ran a test, going straight up a mountain, the 0-6-0 is at 16mph with 233t consist, the 4-4-0 is on it’s knees at 1mph with 236t consist
14:21<andythenorth>but for the first 8 tiles of slope they were level
14:22<frosch123>well, i never have more than 2 slopes along one train :p
14:23<frosch123>try testing them on flat land
14:24<frosch123>imho the freight engine should be ahead of the pax engine until it is capped at max speed
14:24<andythenorth>so the point you illustrate is that there’s no reason not to have high HP on the freight engine
14:25<andythenorth>nobody will choose it for pax, so there still remains ‘one obvious choice’
14:25<andythenorth>for any route / consist
14:25<andythenorth>so I should change that
14:26<frosch123>compareing the 0-6-0 with the 4-4-0
14:26<frosch123>the 0-6-0 has a head-start
14:27<frosch123>but is overtaken at 70 km/h
14:27<frosch123>while topspeed is 88
14:28<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, the tradeoff is te vs topspeed, but power should be similar
14:28<andythenorth>no reason not to
14:29<andythenorth>I think original power was set for realism + encouraging double-heading
14:29<andythenorth>nvm that
14:29<andythenorth>I’ll change in a bit
14:31<V453000>wtf anybody caring about train stats and performance? :D
14:32<frosch123>haha, top headline on reddit: heqs for mail?
14:38<andythenorth>wtd? :o
14:38<frosch123>ah well, i did not miss anything
14:38<andythenorth>or even wtf
14:39<frosch123>another thread is about too many pbs signals lagging the game, which makes trains slow down in front of them, because the pbs does not go to green fast enough
14:39<frosch123>but all participants in the discussion are happy :)
14:39<andythenorth>frosch123: the freight engine doesn’t need to be *much* higher power, right?
14:39<frosch123>good 1st level support
14:39*andythenorth tests
14:41<frosch123>it does not need to have more power than the pax
14:41<andythenorth>but not less
14:41<frosch123>but also not 21% less
14:41<frosch123>i guess 5% less is still fine
14:43<andythenorth>I’m making it a little more
14:43<andythenorth>no reason not to
14:45<V453000>yeah reddit is an intellectual black hole
14:45<V453000>brainz melt
14:46<frosch123>V453000: better than the forums :p
14:46<V453000>kind of equal, but reddit is at least active so it does not last for as long
14:49<andythenorth>frosch123: with sufficiently long straights, and no wagon speed limit, the pax engine is always better
14:49<andythenorth>unless I substantially increase HP on the freight, which creates progression problems :)
14:50<frosch123>andythenorth: i mean only up to the point where the freight one reaches max speed
14:51<frosch123>beyond that speed limit, yes, the pax one will eventually be faster
14:51<andythenorth>I’ve adjusted it so freight engine reaches end of 20 tile track first
14:51<andythenorth>it’s about 1 tile ahead
14:52<andythenorth>and for these (quite low) weights, the pax engine struggles to reach max speed even on flat
14:59<andythenorth>with heavier trailing loads, the freight engines are definitely better choice for the track in this test
15:25<V453000>I really need to make new signals for brix
15:34<andythenorth>FIRS BRIX
15:34<andythenorth>this was boring, was copy of fertiliser plant
15:34*andythenorth turning it into
15:35<andythenorth>got another tile of ‘wtf’ pipework planned
15:35<andythenorth>V453000: criticism plz ^
15:35<@Alberth>maybe a horizontal tank?
15:35<@Alberth>all your tanks are vertical or round :p
15:35<andythenorth>yup agreed
15:35<andythenorth>big chimney is horrible, needs work
15:36<@Alberth>house on top is a bit weird to me too
15:36<@Alberth>bit big for so high
15:37<andythenorth>yeah, possibly
15:37<andythenorth>it’s cut-paste
15:37<andythenorth>I was looking at
15:37<andythenorth>not worried about realism though
15:37<V453000>moar totally random pipes
15:37<@Alberth>less windows?
15:37<V453000>I think that is what makes chemical plant
15:38<V453000>other than that is looks nice, but the big chimney on the right seems like in different style
15:38<@Alberth>more pipe is always good :)
15:38<V453000>the big chimney looks like it has a very photorealistic texture, but it looks flat - it would need more highlights to make it look more round
15:39<V453000>it looks nice
15:39<V453000>I would add some small entity like a bit of pipe coming from the ground and back, with some tiny mechanism/box controlling it or what not
15:39<V453000>just a doodad
15:40<@Alberth>the red of the high house makes the wood and pipes below, disappear a bit, imho
15:40<@Alberth>maybe just an unfortunate CC
15:40<andythenorth>the blue one is more contrasting :)
15:40<andythenorth>needs a lot more pipe
15:45<andythenorth>I want some of these gantries with just loads of pipe everywhere
15:45<andythenorth>^ also, in the far background, massive 4-pipe pyramid, looks like a rocket engine
15:46<andythenorth>(RHS of the photo)
15:47<V453000>I think the dirt texture at the big chimney is making the inconsistent texture
15:47<andythenorth>it’s a mish-mash of at least 4 other industries
15:47<andythenorth>and probably 4 or 5 different people drawing
15:47<V453000>the random bright pixels are AWESOME, taht is IMO what makes the pixel graphics look so great
15:47<andythenorth>I’ll unify it
15:47<V453000>yeah the 3 towers/chimneys are each totally different
15:48<andythenorth>I drew one, one is mph, one is ogfx
15:48<andythenorth>the tanks are ISR
15:48*andythenorth will tidy
15:48<andythenorth>big chimney needs redrawn
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15:50<V453000>just get rid of some of the brownish colours and make highlights to make it more round
15:50<V453000>and it will be great
15:50<andythenorth>top vents aren’t spaced right
15:50<V453000>that's fine I would say
15:50<V453000>some detail on their tops would help though
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15:52<andythenorth>I don’t like the CC stripes there either
15:52<andythenorth>should have some massive cc band, or crazy hatching or something
15:53<V453000>idk, they could be improved but they aren't the breaking factor to me
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16:01<andythenorth>V453000: I want the big chimney something like the one in bg of this photo
16:01<andythenorth>on the left, looks squat and impressive
16:03<V453000>weird building :P
16:04<Supercheese>Industrial buildings are nearly always weird
16:04<andythenorth>I tried to find wtf inspiration
16:05<andythenorth>otherwise all industries are just metal or brick boxes
16:05<Supercheese>the engineers don't have to care about any pesky aesthetics
16:05<Supercheese>pure function (well, optimally)
16:05<Supercheese>I suppose the occasional industrial architect might get a kick out of adding nonfunctional pretty bits
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16:15<V453000>bridges need fixing
16:15<V453000>but the tracks themselves are great
16:17<V453000>also, road crossings :P they will get some semaphore though
16:20<V453000>forums haz post
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16:21<andythenorth>V453000: is getting awesome
16:21<andythenorth>colour pallette is great
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16:21<Supercheese>Man, I don't even want to think how many man-hours have been spent using the sprite-aligner tool to get all that looking good
16:22*Supercheese hates aligning sprites
16:22<Supercheese>but look good it does
16:24<andythenorth>big chimney shape is wrong
16:24<andythenorth>but industrial look of it is better
16:31<Supercheese>and smoke alignment of course
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17:45<@Terkhen>Good night
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 01 00:00:30 2016