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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-03

---Logopened Wed Feb 03 00:00:33 2016
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05:22<Wolf01>o/
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06:08<Eddi|zuHause>something for Wolf01: http://www.ebay.de/itm/201414415968?clk_rvr_id=976490957564&rmvSB=true
06:08<Wolf01>yes, why not?
06:14<Wolf01>the 45€ shipping fee is too much, I think I'll pass :(
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>it says "free shipping" here
06:22<Wolf01>maybe only national shipping is free
06:36<dihedral>hi
06:41<Wolf01>o/
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06:45<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgopp8LjBmU I don't know why is so difficult for a track laying software to automatically connect 2 pieces of rail
06:55<Wolf01>what is better, trainz simulator or rail simulator?
06:55<Hiddenfunstuff>if graphics and such bother you.. dont get trainz
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know either of those
06:55<Wolf01>I already have trainz 12 with a lot of DLCs, but I didn't redeem them on steam yet
06:56<Hiddenfunstuff>Trainz is more sandbox with pretty joke physics, but lets you do lots of stuff.. rail simulator not sure about that can you actually load trains with cargo etc
06:56<Hiddenfunstuff>if you'd have train layout set, digital version of it would be Trainz
06:57<Wolf01>I'm looking for something like train fever which actually works
06:57<Hiddenfunstuff>atleast the new trainz' performance is horrible
06:57<Hiddenfunstuff>and doesnt really have any content provided with itself
06:58<Hiddenfunstuff>so you gotta waste weeks downloading stuff from the slow download station or pay for the faster speed
06:58<Wolf01>I have this too http://store.steampowered.com/app/320110/
07:00<Wolf01>lol, I have this one too http://store.steampowered.com/app/319300/
07:02<Wolf01>I think I have at least 500€ of games purchased for 20€ to redeem on steam
07:09<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/app/304730 lol
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07:16<Eddi|zuHause>?
07:31<Wolf01>mmmh, copied the wrong link
07:31<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/app/304730
07:31<Wolf01>no, it's the right one
07:31<Wolf01>it's steam wrong
07:31<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=320064521
07:32<Wolf01>stupid javascript
07:32<V453000>I like how all 3 of them are total shit in openttd XD
07:32<Wolf01>XD
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's neither good, nor a tutorial...
07:42<V453000>that game looks super boring
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on what you're looking for in a game
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08:24<Wolf01>http://9gag.com/gag/ao9enP2 this is how they install a cat in your car
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08:53<argoneus>nice 9gag
08:54<M-E>eww neingag
09:12<Wolf01>argoneus, I'm thinking about starting a new seasonal hero with a mage
09:13<argoneus>nice
09:29<Wolf01>with the monk I'm at 130 now
09:42<Wolf01>lolwhat? seasonal heroes share the excellence levels?
09:42<Wolf01>and gold
09:42<V453000>non seasonal too
09:42<Wolf01>yes, I know
09:42<Wolf01>but I thought that each seasonal one was alone
09:43<Wolf01>I can overkill everything just assigning the excellence points
09:46<peter1139>herp
09:46<Wolf01>uhm, the cube... now I'm a nuclear warhead with 2 legs... at level 6
09:46<V453000>they share he cube as well? :D
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10:18<andythenorth>are all the objectives met then?
10:18<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Index.php/Objectives
10:19<@planetmaker>how did you end up at that URL? It's ancient (and invalid)
10:19<@planetmaker>https://wiki.openttd.org/Objectives <-- but yes
10:20<andythenorth>forums :)
10:24<V453000>sup yo humanz
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10:45<V453000>hm
10:45<V453000>I just realized my train set concept is kind of visually incompatible with dual headed trains :(
10:45<V453000>but me loves 2 headed trains
10:45<V453000>wat do :D
10:45<andythenorth>what’s the concept?
10:45<andythenorth>always give up something
10:45<V453000>can't tell, you would like it too much
10:45*andythenorth has to give up loved ideas all the time :(
10:45<andythenorth>fortunately there are always more
10:46<andythenorth>I’m assuming animals
10:46<V453000>hmmm
10:47<V453000>well I might be able to make them dual headed, but I would need shitload more sprites
10:48<V453000>16k sprites per engine is kind of a lot
10:48<V453000>but then, I might make only 1 engine in the whole train set
10:49<@Alberth>that would solve any problems in picking which engine to use :)
10:49<V453000>kind of :)
10:53<V453000>what part in machinery matters most to define max speed? gearing?
10:53<Taede>hp
10:54<V453000>hp is a separate parameter for openttd XD
10:56<V453000>I need to illustrate that the same train is in one variation stronger, in one variation faster
10:57<V453000>bigger engine should be for power
10:57<V453000>but for speed, idk much
10:59<supermop>gearing, aerodynamic drag,
10:59<supermop>types of bearings etc
11:00<V453000>well making gearing visible is maybe an option
11:00<V453000>more plating for aerodynamics also is what I considered
11:00<V453000>bearings nope :P
11:01<andythenorth>rocket boosters
11:01<andythenorth>moar speed
11:01<V453000>that is the last level yes :P
11:02<@Alberth>airplane jet engine
11:02<Taede>go-faster stripes?
11:02<V453000>XD
11:02<Taede>flamejob?
11:02<@Alberth>+1
11:02<V453000>yeah except my trains have no plating atm XD
11:02<V453000>flames are hard to place
11:02<V453000>but good idea
11:02<andythenorth>small wheels
11:02<@Alberth>semi-transparent train in front of it? like you're seeing double :p
11:02<V453000>but yeah, a good point
11:03<V453000>LOL
11:03<V453000>now that is something :P
11:03<V453000>drunk mode
11:03<@Alberth>:D
11:03<andythenorth>V453000: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cc/a4/50/cca45040e113955b50527e9aee097370.jpg
11:03<andythenorth>train lays its own tracks
11:03<V453000>vomits you mean
11:04<@Alberth>nice and colourful
11:04<andythenorth>V453000: Mario Kart 8, has many options for tyres http://i.imgur.com/oB8kVbJ.jpg
11:04<andythenorth>do that
11:04<V453000>I already define TE with tyres
11:05<andythenorth>yay
11:05<andythenorth>V453000: you _like_ double-headed but do you need it?
11:05<andythenorth>plenty things I like
11:05<V453000>like
11:05<andythenorth>but they don’t fit structure
11:06<andythenorth>so I have to let go of things I like, or change structure
11:06<andythenorth>eh
11:06<V453000>I might get away with it though
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11:13<V453000>snow plow sounds badass
11:13<V453000>less obstacles = moar speed with less risk? :D
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11:17<andythenorth>sails
11:18<andythenorth>https://johnkennethmuir.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/spacehunter3.jpg
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11:55<V453000>:DDDDDDDDDDDDD
11:55<V453000>no andy sorry :D
11:55<V453000>snow plow it is
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12:14<Wolf01>bye
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13:03<supermop>hmm what boat to use
13:03<@Alberth>floating one
13:03<supermop>bulk terminal could make 320,000 L of chemicals at GH
13:04<supermop>and the meteor can do the round trip to the glass works in 100 days,
13:05<supermop>so i can send jusy over one meteor every 10 days, or switch to a bigger boat
13:05<supermop>still want the chemicals to arrive at least once per month to keep glass production steady
13:05<@Alberth>so many options
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13:06<@Alberth>use a feeder to slowly feed the industry?
13:06<supermop>the eddystone tanker holds 330,000L, great for one month's worth of chemicals, but it goes 10 km slower, and would make the return trip empty
13:07<supermop>where as meteor takes goods on it's way back to the terminal
13:08<supermop>I guess I could use a big boat every other month to dump chemicals next to the glassworks, then drip them over via a tram
13:09<supermop>or use marstein freighter once every 20 days with a bit of excess capacity
13:09<supermop>but then i have to scrap the three meteors i already have
13:12<andythenorth>scrap them
13:12<andythenorth>boats are a total PITA eh?
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13:12<andythenorth>I hate boats
13:13<andythenorth>hate / am irritated by /s
13:13<frosch123>how many people already pointed out the redundant cat in today's xkcd? :p
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13:16<supermop>easiest vehicle to timetable
13:16<supermop>hate scrapping anything
13:17<supermop>have a few billion yen but still shuffle the old stuff around looking for another use for it
13:17<andythenorth>make tuna cans from it
13:18<supermop>if scrapping a vehicle next to a scrapyard made scrap metal that would be cool
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14:20<andythenorth>so if I drew snowy coast tiles, could we have snow to sea level?
14:20<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=564223&nseq=0
14:20<andythenorth>I know it messes with farms
14:21<andythenorth>but could we?
14:24<frosch123>make a baseset with frozen sea
14:24<frosch123>no ships allowed
14:30<andythenorth>icebreakers only
14:30<andythenorth>new newgrf property
14:30<Supercheese>I already have ice in my objects grf
14:31<Supercheese>comes in various flavors, too
14:32<Supercheese>I debated trying to make the ice cover vary with the seasons, melting and freezing again, but decided it was too much work
14:33<V453000>hm a snow plow that weighs about as much as the whole train is probably not the most efficient way to earn better top speed in engineering XD
14:34<V453000>frosch123: thanks for the idea
14:34<V453000>:>
14:34<V453000>because fuck ships
14:36<frosch123>V453000: it also saves you from making the water animated :p
14:36<andythenorth>bad news
14:36<andythenorth>hovercraft
14:36<V453000>point is valid
14:36<andythenorth>so no fuck ships
14:36<V453000>yeah frozen water with hovercrafts
14:36<V453000>which look like hover slugs
14:36<V453000>GG
14:37<andythenorth>hovercraft easy
14:37<andythenorth>only need one or two models
14:37<andythenorth>no ship sizing crap
14:37<Supercheese>if all the water is frozen over, just turn cars into ships and drive across
14:37<andythenorth>and they’re fast
14:37<andythenorth>Supercheese: don’t be silly, the hovercraft crack the ice
14:37<andythenorth>the ships would fall through
14:37<andythenorth>ships / cars /s
14:37<andythenorth>ships also
14:37<Supercheese>carships
14:37<Supercheese>shipcars
14:37<frosch123>snowmobiles
14:38<andythenorth>http://www.griffonhoverwork.com/media/59809/AP188%20known%20as%20Mamilossa,%20operating%20in%20Canada.jpg
14:38<Supercheese>the Hovervan
14:38<Supercheese>someone should make a top gear grf
14:38<Supercheese>all the crazy crap they've done
14:39<frosch123>Supercheese: suggest it in the "famous cars" topic
14:39<andythenorth>hmm
14:39<andythenorth>this vineyard looks nothing like a vineyard
14:39<andythenorth>I might actually have to draw some trees and crap
14:39<andythenorth>not just use base set sprites :x
14:39<Supercheese>you could steal the trees from stolen trees
14:39<Supercheese>then you'd have stolen stolen trees
14:40*andythenorth mind blow
14:40<andythenorth>blown *
14:40<andythenorth>someone should fix ships
14:40<andythenorth>dunno what the fix is though
14:40<V453000>can I see tram track sprites somewhere?
14:40<V453000>just want to see what exactly do I need
14:41<Supercheese>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/show/gfx ?
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14:44<frosch123>V453000: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/png/infrastructure/infra06.png <- take a look at the very bottom
14:45<V453000>aha thanks
14:45<V453000>so it is like bridge overlays, of course
14:45<V453000>me dumb almost thought I need to redo bridges
14:45<V453000>duh
14:46<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p4p3q5lro <- that are some of the sprite indices
14:46<V453000>1432-1437 are bridge overlays?
14:46<V453000>ah
14:47<V453000>ok thanks :) helps tons
14:47<V453000>any clue what the empty sprites are though?
14:48<andythenorth>iirc someone told me that there was some planned thing for tram tracks that turned out to be unnecessary
14:48<andythenorth>but I might have invented that vague idea
14:49<V453000>care not, if it works, I care shit
14:49<andythenorth>useful eh?
14:49*andythenorth fount of crap facts
14:49<V453000>XD
14:49<frosch123>V453000: they are ordered the same as the sprites for normal road
14:49<frosch123>maybe ttd has some other sprites in that place or something silly
14:52<V453000>ah hm
14:52<frosch123>@calc 0x546
14:52<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 1350
14:53<V453000>well, I will figure it out when the time comes :")
14:53<andythenorth>so why does my png cause nmlc to barf under pypy3?
14:53<V453000>doing other stuff, just got reminded of tram trax
14:53<andythenorth>anyone got pypy3 to replicate?
14:53<frosch123>V453000: i believe they are the rail crossing sprites
14:53<frosch123>so, not used for tram
14:53<V453000>ah right
14:54<V453000>on a road crossing, normal tram straight sprite is used then I assume?
14:54<frosch123>there is no road crossing without road
14:54<frosch123>thus for trams there is only an overlay sprite
14:54<V453000>:d
14:54<frosch123>there is no road-crossing specific tram sprite
14:55<V453000>I see
14:55<V453000>well then :D
14:55<V453000>thanks :)
14:55<V453000>onwards back to more vehicles for now
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14:57<andythenorth>oh yeah that
14:58<andythenorth>the ‘planned thing that someone told me about’ was me trying to patch crossings
14:58<andythenorth>so the road isn’t needed
14:58<andythenorth>failed
14:58<V453000>aha :)
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15:00<Raish0>Hello! Is this a right place to ask newbie questions?
15:01<Supercheese>Sure
15:05<Raish0>I just want to ask if there is something that you recommend like a "must-read" article or "must-have" addon for newer players like me. I just got from that stage when this game was all about beating my brothers in pure income.
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15:08<@Alberth>reading the wiki never hurts :)
15:08<@Alberth>lots of not so visible features there
15:09<@Alberth>as for add-ons, it depends on how you want to play the game
15:09<@Alberth>what does attract you?
15:12<Supercheese>Well, openttdcoop is always fun browsing: http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2013/08/06/dont-try-this-at-home-prozone-game-2013/
15:12<Supercheese>if you like having your mind blown by complex setups, anyway
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15:13<Raish0>Hmm, I quite like the vanilla game. And I am that perfectionist guy who likes to build that complex and big setups.
15:13<@Alberth>city transport, or industry transport, massive transport (big junctions), close to realism (loads of eye candy)
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15:14<V453000>nice, Supercheese bringing the biggest gun to new player fight :P
15:14<Supercheese>Hey, if you never see the ultimate crazy potential, you might never know it even exists
15:14<V453000>:)
15:15<Raish0>I've read something, I know basics, really basic things about networking, I know what signals do but anything complex... bwah. I looked up on few saved games and got mindblows by those builds.
15:15<Supercheese>a bit of mind = blown is good for the newbie, methinks
15:15<Supercheese>it should inspire them to new heights
15:15<Raish0>Actually, I've seen your name V453000 quite often when I was browsing those builds :D
15:15<@Alberth>oh, that's fine, you'll need lots of practice :)
15:15<V453000>not a big coincidence I must admit
15:16<V453000>anyway, just join our servers Raish0 , you will learn everything in a short while there
15:17<@Alberth>NUTS will serve you well, powerful train set aimed at having powerful engines without too much trouble so you can concentrate on building
15:18<@Alberth>if you want something less powerful, iron horse or pineapple train set are also designed for game play
15:18<@Alberth>for ships, try squid, aka fish2
15:19<@Alberth>for industries, opengfx+industries is pretty much like vanilla openttd, but just that little nicer
15:19<@Alberth>if you want to go more wild, FIRS and YETI awaits you :)
15:20<Raish0>Is vanilla something that is not popular?
15:20-!-oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21<@Alberth>most people like playing a particular kind of game, as discussed above
15:22<@Alberth>and using a add-on designed for that works better
15:22<@Alberth>vanilla is a bit of everything
15:22<@Alberth>many people hate the forced upgrade to mono and maglev, for example
15:23<@Alberth>opengfx+ is a set of newgrfs, that aims to have a vanilla feeling, but a little nicer
15:24<@Alberth>if you want to stay close to vanilla, you can try that
15:24<andythenorth>I played vanilla for a long time
15:24<andythenorth>but then I found pikka sets..
15:24<andythenorth>no way back from there
15:24<frosch123>Raish0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcgylFM3y4 <- that's the best signal tutorial i know
15:26<Raish0>Hmm, thanks for advices! I guess I will check that server which V453000 talked about and other things you suggested. I sure have things to do this night :)
15:28<V453000>LugnutsK = Hazzard from openttdcoop btw :P
15:28<V453000>and yes it is good
15:29<V453000>lol he even demonstrates nuts signals XD
15:31<Raish0>As I look at that video.. can you actually use trains and signals to build logic gates? O.o
15:31<argoneus>yes
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15:33<frosch123>Raish0: you will find countless of examples of adders, binary or bcd, counters ... on youtube. in particular i remember a 24hour clock which uses trains that actually display numbers
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but is it a real time clock?
15:33<frosch123>Raish0: however, if you go down that road, you will encounter domino computers, which are even more dangerous
15:34<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: approximately, precision is unknown
15:34<V453000>logic is cute but I only build it when I really need it to achieve something specific
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you timetable by ticks, and have no slowdowns, you can determine the length of a second
15:36<frosch123>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpLU__bhu2w <- V453000: there are worth ways to waste your time than buildnig computers in openttd :p
15:36<frosch123>s/worth/worse/ :/
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's an awesome video :p
15:36<Raish0>I once built a 8 bit calculator in Minecraft. Tools here looks more tricky, but rebuilding it with trains sounds funny
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>even though it had pretty severe interference errors :p
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>"cosmic radiation" :p
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>has anyone built a minecraft CPU that can run openttd, and then run the openttd ALU?
15:38<V453000>..
15:39<V453000>if you like logic then open the pro zone game 2013 Supercheese linked
15:39<V453000>:)
15:42<Raish0>The most interesting thing that I find in openttd so far ¨is map when you built that insane self-regulating network all over the map.
15:43<V453000>yeah srnw is very brainmelty
15:43<V453000>pzg2013 is srnw as well :P with the most advanced stations
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15:50<@Alberth>yep, pretty brain melty :)
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15:53<andythenorth>vineyard http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1163719#p1163719
15:53<andythenorth>unexpected sprite
15:54<andythenorth>GarryG is my new favourite grf author
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15:54<V453000>._.
15:54<V453000>that is horrible, sorry
15:55<V453000>I hate the shape of that building tbh, not just the shading
15:55<V453000>I think diagonal corners aren't nice in OpenTTD
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>the perspective looks weird, and it's too high
15:56<V453000>and I agree with Eddi to add to it
15:56<V453000>andythenorth: that makes it outrageous in total
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>HOW DARE YOU!!!
15:56<frosch123>did i mention that everytime i see that topic, i read nsfwtrains
15:57<V453000>XD
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16:01<andythenorth>I like it
16:01<frosch123>it fits the vineyard theme
16:02<frosch123>they always have weird houses
16:02<andythenorth>better than ‘oh FIRS farmhouse, again'
16:02<andythenorth>that farmhouse is used about 12 times
16:03<frosch123>but the vine columns may need some work
16:03<frosch123>in my book they are hedges, not single trees
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16:04<@Alberth>nice fitting building imho
16:04<andythenorth>the vines suck
16:04<andythenorth>I need to draw some
16:04<andythenorth>really not trees
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know... maybe i expected some mediterranean looking building, since it's subtropic
16:11<andythenorth>won’t work so much for south america or australia
16:11<andythenorth>also hard to draw :P
16:11<andythenorth>feel free to send me a sprite :D
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16:12<andythenorth>there’s a chateau sprite somewhere? o_O
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16:13<frosch123>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS_Town_Vector._Tourists_centre._Karlstein <- ecs has various castles
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16:14<frosch123>but they are also quite tall
16:18<+glx>and hard to place
16:18<andythenorth>and many tiles :)
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16:30<argoneus>why is webdev so shit
16:30<andythenorth>??
16:30<frosch123>because it has the word "web" in it?
16:31<frosch123>no idea what it is, just guessing
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe should do something with "cyber" in it instead?
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16:31<frosch123>i remember something like webdav
16:31<frosch123>but no idea from what context
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY6KkRsS26M
16:37<frosch123>most words starting with "S" sound weird when prefixed by cyber
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16:51<Quatroking>Hi
16:52<Quatroking>Is it possible to change town names in a multiplayer game through the server console?
16:59<andythenorth>bye
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17:03<+glx>Quatroking: not in a running game, town names must be defined before map generation
17:03<Quatroking>Ah, okay
17:04<Quatroking>And the speed of time can't be changed at all other than recompiling the entire game, right?
17:04<+glx>yes
17:05<+glx>and most day lenght patch have side effects
17:05<Quatroking>bummer
17:05<Quatroking>I now play on a homeserver that I have running 24/7
17:06<Quatroking>thought it'd be nice to slow the timescale by 50% or something
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17:09<frosch123>Quatroking: servers can autopause when no client is connected
17:09<frosch123>or only spectators are connected
17:11<Quatroking>that's a good idea
17:12<frosch123>"setting minactiveclients 1" or something like that
17:12<Quatroking>Just did that
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17:18<supermop>inner city patch has all sorts of neat surprises even this far into a game
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17:22<supermop>several EMU lines run through my city in a trunk line, so need good timetabling to keep it running smooth. one of the lines varies in timing so needs a lot of slack - so to keep early trains from running onto the line before their timeslot i built a station on the edge of town where they can wait
17:22<supermop>put my HQ out there so it would at least accept passengers. now 15 years later a little exurb has sprouted around the station
17:23<supermop>so houses seem attracted to stations in this patch i guess?
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17:26<Supercheese>"If you build it, they will come"
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17:38<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74353&p=1163726#p1163726
17:39<Supercheese>cute :)
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18:47<supermop>hmm where are the base set pbs sprites
18:57<Supercheese>in the _extra bits perhaps
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>pbs sprites will be in an action5
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>is there also a timey wimey irc?
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19:17<supermop>yellow aspect patch guy wants green/double yellow/yellow/red so thats what i am drawing
19:18<supermop>but more natural to me (based on signalling i'm more familiar with) would be a distant aspect with green/yellow, and home with red/green
19:19<supermop>so effectively double green/green and yellow/ double yellow/ red and yellow
19:20<supermop>on the subway here they wouldn't show yellow distant aspect if home was at red though
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19:21<supermop>what do you have in germany, Eddi|zuHause ?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>germany is complicated(tm)
19:23<supermop>i feel like separate heads for home and distant is then easier to represent in semaphores as well
19:23<supermop>with a single semaphore, hard to display 4 aspects
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>generally germany has two different types of signal, main signal (which show green/green-yellow/red) and advance siganls (which show green-green/green-yellow/yellow-yellow)
19:25<supermop>are they ever on the same post?
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>main signal means "go at full speed/go at reduced speed/stop" and advance signal means "next signal will be full speed/reduced speed/stop"
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they can be combined
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>there are also more modern systems where they are always combined (or unused lights left out)
19:26<supermop>ottd post starts to get silly looking with more than 4 lights
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>the newer ones try to avoid three green lights on the same post
19:28<supermop>hmm
19:29<supermop>i think i will draw double green as my most permissive aspect then
19:30<supermop>as i understand this guy's patch, it is reserving 3 blocks, so distant signal would also be green in most permissive case
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, in the case of german signals, normal state would be green+green/green, first stage of slowdown would be green+green/yellow, second stage of slowdown would be green/yellow+yellow/yellow and stop would be red+yellow/yellow
19:43<supermop>Are distant signals placed below the home signals usually?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:43<supermop>ok
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>example: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Einfahrsignal_Friedrichsdorf_Hp2_Zs3v.jpg
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>and this would be the semaphore variant: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Formsignale_Solarzellen_LEDs.jpg
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>the top arm switches between red (horizontal) and green (angled), the second arm switches between nothing (vertical) and yellow (angled, in combination with the top arm this becomes green/yellow)
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>the yellow disc switches beteween visible (yellow/yellow) and invisible (green/green), and the yellow arm below it flips between vertical (yellow/yellow or green/green) and angled (green/yellow)
19:51<supermop>hmm
19:52<supermop>should cheat and draw one pixel of light per aspect on the backs on signals that face straight up
19:52<supermop>so you can determine aspect
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like "there's light shining through some hole"?
19:53<supermop>yeah
19:53<supermop>hmm my 4-light home over distant concept doesn't work
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you want less lights, try the Ks system over the H/V system
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>H/V is what i explained above
19:54<supermop>i have green/green for clear, then green/yellow for caution, and red for stop
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>as i understood from the signal patch, there should be 4 states?
19:55<supermop>top two lights are green and red for home, bottom two are green and yellow for distant, but that only allows 4 aspects
19:55<supermop>i mean 3
19:56<supermop>i can only get one 'caution' out of these 4 lights
19:57<supermop>i guess that's why he wanted green/yellow/yellow/red
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm. Ks has fewer lights, but it involves flashing states
20:01<supermop>flashing green?
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>so the 4 states would be green/flashing green/yellow/red
20:01<supermop>flashing is more or less permissive than solid green?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>flashing means "next signal will have reduced speed"
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>this is the layout: http://home.arcor-online.de/estw/ks.gif
20:06<supermop>will that be confusing to players unfamiliar with it?
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>more confusing than the existing system already is?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>minor, i think
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>it should be pretty easily picked up
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think the palette contains flashing green
20:07<supermop>well currently no signal in game displays anything other than red or green
20:07<supermop>yellow is intuitive
20:08<supermop>i know that in the uk, in the 80s they experimented with flashing green as more permissive than double green
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can use two lights if you want to flip colours of the lights. then you can have something like green/green, green/yellow, yellow/yellow and red/red
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20:09<supermop>when trying to run trains at 150 mph on lines signaled for 125
20:09<sim-al2>Flashing is also somewhat common to "upgrade" aspects, like flashing red for restricting (aka drive on sight) and flashing yellow for another approach aspect
20:10<supermop>color changing lights could work
20:10<supermop>cold reduce all other signals to a single lamp so they are not so damn tall
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>the original (as in TTDPatch) PBS have 3 lights vertically
20:11<supermop>3 aspects or 4?
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>openttd changed that at some point to have more visual difference to the pre/exit signals
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>all signals only ever had 2 aspects
20:11<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#/media/File:Distant_signal_Hamamatsu.jpg
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20:12<supermop>that seems to have home at bottom, but is more like what patch author describes
20:13<sim-al2>Japanese signaling is a bit weird, many railways no longer allow trains to pass signals at stop without permission, so the home/automatic distinction is slowly disappearing
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20:18<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: pretty much nobody playing this game will have any knowledge about signals other than "green means go, red means stop"
20:20<supermop>i guess green/yellow and yellow/yellow are equally intuitive as "go slower than green but faster than yellow"
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20:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there is enough difference betweewn single yellow and double yellow
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>so green/yellow fits better
20:24<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_railway_signalling
20:24<supermop>the color light part seems easiest, but can change the other yellow to another green
20:29<supermop>could even do it with only 3 lamps if you have green/green+yellow/yellow/red
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21:14<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1163728#p1163728
21:17<supermop>were semaphores added later? they are not on the same ogfx sheet
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>TTO had semaphores, i think TTD did not
21:19<Eddi|zuHause>also, there are two sets of semaphores, one for drive-on-left and one for drive-on-right
21:20<supermop>well i guess i'm going to have to do both for this guy
21:23<supermop>do those lights look ok for now?
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>difficult to tell out of context
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>but you don't need a pcx
21:27<supermop>ok
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>both grfcodec and nml can process png
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23:06<supermop>ok did semaphore versions
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