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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-04

---Logopened Thu Feb 04 00:00:34 2016
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04:04<dihedral>hey hey
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05:02<Kyle>Hey guys need a hand setting up my dedicated server
05:02-!-Kyle is now known as Guest2292
05:03<Guest2292>Im using ubuntu, no gui, and ive got the server up and running but its at version 1.3.0
05:03<Guest2292>How do I update it to 1.5.3?
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05:06<Guest2292>Anyone?
05:09<@planetmaker>Guest2292, download openttd 1.5.3 from our website and start the server from that binary?
05:09<@planetmaker>if your ubuntu repository does not offer a newer OpenTTD, that's the way to go
05:09<Guest2292>Using w3m? I have no desktop environment etc
05:09<@planetmaker>wget the proper archive on the server and unpack it.
05:10<@planetmaker>wget https://binaries.openttd.org/releases/1.5.3/openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz
05:10<@planetmaker>gunzip openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz
05:11<peter1139>why not the .deb?
05:11<Guest2292>Should I unisiall any openttd files before hand?
05:11<@planetmaker>cd openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64
05:11<Guest2292>ubuntu 14.04 LTS is what im running
05:11<@planetmaker>./openttd -D
05:11<@planetmaker>peter1139, because I don't know his ubuntu version, thus better going for the generic one
05:12<peter1139>grr
05:12-!-peter1139 is now known as peter1138
05:12<@planetmaker>use the deb we provide for your version, if you like
05:12<@planetmaker>and yes, you can first install the openttd version you have. But if you follow the procedure I lined out, there's no need
05:13<Guest2292>you are some godlike tech support planetmaker
05:13<Guest2292>thank you
05:14<Guest2292>is the the cfg file still in .openttd
05:15<@planetmaker>yes. Nothing in .openttd will be removed
05:15<Guest2292>epic, working
05:15<Guest2292>thank you bro
05:15<@planetmaker>on ubuntu 14.04 you indeed can de-install your existing and install our deb. But ... doesn't matter either way
05:16<Guest2292>my issue was i ran apt-get install openttd
05:16<Guest2292>which got me the older version
05:16<peter1138>using the generic ones is good for when you want to run nightlies too
05:16<peter1138>not that there's much activity there atm :(
05:17<@planetmaker>we don't even have 1.6.0-betas
05:17<@planetmaker>which we "should" since christmas
05:18<Guest2292>cheers for the help guys
05:18<Guest2292>cya
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06:22<Wolf01>hi hi
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06:38<peter1138>me o'clock
06:39<Wolf01>uh, it's late, about lunch time
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07:10<Ketsuban>I compared building a stretch of rail to building a stretch of planning rail from Useless Tracks and then upgrading it, and it came out £15 more expensive.
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>sure, clearing the land costs the same, and removing the planning track gives you slightly less money than building it costs
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07:24<Eddi|zuHause>make sure you didn't actually measure different clear land values, like when there's a tree or uneven ground
07:35<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:35<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause how are you doing on this fine thursday
07:35<argoneus>have you had a cup of teay et
07:35<argoneus>yet*
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't had a cup of tea in like 10 years
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>probably
07:36<argoneus>wow
07:36<argoneus>coffee person?
07:36<Wolf01>he's German, they have a cup of cappuccino before lunch, not tea
07:36<argoneus>tea is fantastic
07:36<argoneus>for one it has taste
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>i also don't drink coffee
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>and also, you should never ask a german how he's feeling unless you're prepared to listen to every single of his ailments
07:39<Wolf01>beer
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07:45<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause my body is ready
07:45<argoneus>tell me all about your feelings
07:46<Wolf01>1d20... fumble
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09:37<Ketsuban>Eddi|zuHause: good point, I forgot I'd set trees to invisible. Tried again with no trees, just plain grass - £30 more expensive to upgrade planning rail.
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09:54<supermop__>Ketsuban: with planning track you have to hire a surveyor, to go stake it out, so 30 quid for his time sounds like a good deal
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10:22<V453000>I would question his knowledge and thus the quality of the project though :P
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11:46<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:50<V453000>yo
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12:03<supermop__>gah i just scheduled 5 different lines to share a terminus at 50 day spacing, so 10 days apart line to line, but accidentally scheduled 3 of the lines at 40 day spacing instead of 50
12:03<supermop__>going to be a mess to untangle
12:04<@Alberth>\o/ untangling messes is fun
12:05<supermop__>most of what i do in a game lately is meticulously scheduling a complex timetable to work several lines together, then spend twice as long fixing it, because i messed up some part
12:06<@Alberth>:)
12:06<supermop__>one of the lines shares with a different main trunk with it's own complex schedule
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>i barely managed to interleave my two maglev lines
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12:18<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: it seems the interleaving is the only part of the game i play for anymore
12:23<supermop__>so basically i am only doing the most tedious frustrating work part
12:30<@Alberth>somewhere, you have to get something out of it, or you would not do it
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: sometimes the brain has strange feedback loops
12:34<@Alberth>:)
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12:44<supermop__>too bad i don't get paid for it
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13:10<V453000>hm, when I was picking names for NUTS trains it was simple when there is like 120 of them
13:10<V453000>but when I have to pick one, it ain't so easy XD
13:13<_johannes>anyone German here? I'f I'll buy a ticket and don't get a train at a station because the previous train was late, can I continue my travel with a higher class train, like with ICE instead of RE?
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13:15<_johannes>ah ok, it looks like you can do that: http://www.bahn.de/p/view/service/fahrgastrechte/faq_fahrgastrechte.shtml
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: you have to get some conductor (or the service point) to document the lateness
13:20<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: it might be that I won't have time to do that
13:20<_johannes>not even sure if that special station has a service point open at that time...
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>is there no conductor in the train you are in?
13:21<@Alberth>V: put them all in the high hat, and draw one
13:21<_johannes>ah, maybe ... should be on an ICE...
13:22<V453000>Alberth: that is now how it works :P
13:29<V453000>got it :>
13:29<@Alberth>:)
13:31<V453000>song names ftw :D
13:31<frosch123>_johannes: if you have no confirmation you may have to buy an upgrade ticket from the conductor in the ice, and you can only after your travel request a refund from a service desk
13:33<_johannes>frosch123: if the train starts getting late right before that station (or if it's not sure whether the other train will wait), I won't have time to see the conductor :-/
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>if your travel already includes an ICE, it is valid for the whole journey
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>you only need the lateness confirmation to lift the train binding
13:33<_johannes>hmm or I just stay on exactly that train :D
13:34<_johannes>yeah... the conductors on the other trains would not know of the lateness...
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>the ICE fee is fixed, not depending on the distance travelled
13:34<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean? travelling from Berlin to Stuttgart is probably more expensive than from Frankfurt?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there is a distance price no matter what train you are using, and an ICE price on top of that
13:36<frosch123>_johannes: it costs the same if you take ice from berlin to stuttgart, or if you take a RB from berlin to ulm and the ice only from ulm to stuttgart
13:36<_johannes>ah you mean that additional price is constant?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:36<_johannes>ah ok! interesting...
13:36<frosch123>it's your responsibility to use as much as ice as possible, once you have purchased ice at all
13:36<_johannes>:D
13:37<_johannes>though for the "Sparpreis", the more-ice routes look more expensive... probably because they are used by more people...
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cheap prices usually go very quickly on busy routes
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>also useful to know about the "Sparpreis": the train binding only applies to IC and ICE trains, you can take any RE or RB trains along that route
13:43<supermop__>V453000: you should make the names random
13:43<_johannes>does the Sparpreis even get more expensive if I use a more busy RE?
13:43<V453000>isn't naming them by audio records random enough for a train?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that matters
13:45<supermop__>too bad you can't randomize the name like you can with intro date
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13:45<stardude>hey guys i've got a question regarding a station not accepting an item
13:45<V453000>no reason to either tbh :) would only cause confusion for no gain
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27506 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2016-02-04 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>french: 13 changes by OliTTD
13:45<stardude>oh lol nvm
13:45<stardude>just figured it out
13:47<supermop__>confusion would be the point
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13:49<andythenorth>o/
13:49<stardude>yeah the station just doesn't accept those goods
13:49<stardude>SILLY ME
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13:51<V453000>sup andy
13:52<V453000>I am modelling the most badass train ever seen
13:52<V453000>:D
13:52<V453000>also, dual heading has been trashed
13:52<andythenorth>wise
13:54<andythenorth>all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds
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14:02<V453000>xd
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14:10<_johannes>hmm if you use the Sparpreis and have one part bought with an RE, can you use REs on other routes for that part?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, usually "routes" are not point-to-point but "anything within this area"
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>what specific areas there are, you should ask a more knowledgable person
14:12<frosch123>they are printed on the ticket
14:13<frosch123>from: to: via:
14:13<frosch123>usually via lists multiple stations which refer to various possible routes
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but "via" is not actual stations to go through, but rather the boundaries of the area
14:20<_johannes>ah ok...
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14:46<andythenorth>silly old cat
14:54<andythenorth>so why is 16GB ‘enough’?
14:54<andythenorth>for years, every RAM threshold has quickly been breached
14:55<andythenorth>but 16GB just hasn’t, at all, for several years now
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you call "quick"
14:57<andythenorth>first computer I owned in 1999 had 32MB
14:57<andythenorth>that’s 16.5 years ago
14:57<andythenorth>I’ve had 16GB for at least 3 years, possibly 4
14:58<frosch123>increase the number of vms
14:58<andythenorth>so over 75% of my computer owning life, RAM increased by a factor of 256
14:59<andythenorth>and for the other 25%, RAM increased by factor 0
14:59<andythenorth>I only *have* 16GB to run multiple VMs
14:59<andythenorth>otherwise 8GB is enough
14:59<frosch123>andythenorth: it's the same for cpu speed :p
14:59<andythenorth>so some fundamental of limit of general purpose computing behaviour has been hit
15:00<frosch123>ssd is pretty much the only thing that is still growing exponentially
15:00<andythenorth>battery life seems to grow, maybe linear, not sure
15:01<andythenorth>maybe we hit the point where photo / video / audio filesizes don’t grow through enhanced resolution
15:01<andythenorth>and a person only has so many of them
15:01*andythenorth should play OTTD
15:01<andythenorth>instead of navel gazing
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15:02<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/1.5)/1024
15:02<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 50.796833663
15:02<frosch123>andythenorth: i have half of my ram assigned to a ramdisk, which i use as target for compiling ottd
15:02<frosch123>it speeds up compilation :p
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>that can't be right
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/2)/1024
15:02<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 8
15:03<andythenorth>yeah, I did my calculation wrong somehow
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>so 32MB in 1999 is between 8 and 50GB today
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>depending on what your moore's law scale factor is
15:03<andythenorth>frosch123: RAM is that much faster than your SSD? o_O
15:03<andythenorth>I should ramdisk Iron Horse :P
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: shouldn't cache take care of that?
15:04<frosch123>with disk the best compilation time of ottd was with -j (cores + 1)
15:05<frosch123>with ramdisk it was as fast with -j cores
15:05<frosch123>the object files with debug symbols and stuff are quite huge
15:05<frosch123>way bigger than the source code
15:05<frosch123>also i have only an old ssd
15:05<frosch123>and i use it only for /usr
15:06<andythenorth>frosch123: I forget, did you have feedback on IAHC economy?
15:06<andythenorth>o_O
15:07<frosch123>i suggested to add bonusses for delivering multiple input cargos for more industry types
15:07<andythenorth>so food processor?
15:07<frosch123>specifically food proeccsing plant
15:07<frosch123>yes, i still only played the food chain
15:08<andythenorth>should I add MNSP there or not?
15:08*andythenorth is on the fence
15:08<frosch123>the thing is: there are two distinations for maize, and 3 for fruit
15:08<frosch123>there should be a benefit in spreading them to multiple industry types
15:08<frosch123>instead of dumping them into one
15:08<andythenorth>I could remove fruit from the port
15:09<andythenorth>there is room here to rethink things
15:09<andythenorth>there are 2 cargo slots unused
15:09<frosch123>currently "alcohol" and "food" are completely equivalent
15:09<andythenorth>also I don’t know if livestock adds much
15:09<frosch123>both are produced from the same, and are delivered to the same
15:09<andythenorth>yeah, alcohol has that problem in all economies
15:09<andythenorth>anywhere people want to eat, they also want to drink
15:09<andythenorth>and vice versa :P
15:09<frosch123>so, there should be a benefit in producing both
15:09<andythenorth>GS tells you to do it? o_O
15:10<andythenorth>oh, the non-GS case :P
15:10<@Rubidium>make a Scandinavian economy
15:10<andythenorth>I did ::P
15:10<andythenorth>removed Alcohol though
15:10<andythenorth>unrealisms?
15:10<@Rubidium>no alcohol to supermarket but to state owned shop
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>no alcohol in supermarket? which barbaric country is that?
15:12*andythenorth considers removing livestock and stockyard
15:12<andythenorth>and sending MNSP to food processor
15:12<andythenorth>then adding some other export cargo
15:12<frosch123>andythenorth: variety of cargos is good
15:12<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: oh, apparantly I lied... < 3.5% is allowed in the supermarket (in Sweden)
15:12<frosch123>but they should also be used
15:13<andythenorth>frosch123: I would like more that is ‘not seen lots of places before'
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: wtf kind of beer has <3.5%?
15:13*andythenorth still considering Rare Minerals or something
15:13<andythenorth>but quantities are low
15:13<@Rubidium>(or 4.75% in Norway or 4.7% in Finland)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>that still seems to exclude most useful stuffs
15:14<frosch123>andythenorth: better go for visual diversity :p
15:14<frosch123>piles of dirt do not look any different
15:14<frosch123>organic stuff is a lot more colourful
15:14<andythenorth>so livestock might be worth keeping
15:15<andythenorth>unique wagons, unique station tiles
15:15<andythenorth>dunno, I haven’t used it in my test game, but that’s due to Busy Bee
15:15<frosch123>i would rahter like to see tomatoes and bananas :p than phosphate and manganese
15:15<andythenorth>I could split up fruit
15:15<andythenorth>I wouldn’t mind that
15:15<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Nigeria#Agricultural_products
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>but most fruit would go to the same destination?
15:15<andythenorth>^ roughly my guide, not sticking to it rigidly
15:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that’s a problem yes
15:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so do the minerals
15:16<frosch123>all to bulk terminal
15:16<andythenorth>minerals -> port
15:16<andythenorth>I think a banana train would be nice
15:16<andythenorth>I considered rice also
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>should put rice in an asian economy
15:16<andythenorth>but rice seems more east asian
15:16<andythenorth>yes, I wanted to save it
15:17<frosch123>andythenorth: add a youth hostel in addition the the hotel :p
15:17<andythenorth>economies are pointless if they overlap too much
15:17<andythenorth>truck drivers bunkhouse
15:17<frosch123>accepts alcohol, energy drinks and junk food
15:19<frosch123>andythenorth: do you have "salt" in some economy?
15:19<frosch123>there are at least three different ways to harvest salt
15:20<andythenorth>I want to do salt
15:20<andythenorth>maybe australian economy, or so
15:20<andythenorth>I think the most useful cargos are those that have interesting specialised vehicles
15:20<andythenorth>at least for my definition of ‘useful'
15:20<frosch123>hmm, asian: rice, spices, china ware
15:21<andythenorth>A -> B, C -> B, D -> B, all in open wagons, is boring
15:22<frosch123>rare minerals, electronics :p
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15:27<andythenorth>I can only think of sugarcane to add variety of wagons / trucks
15:28<andythenorth>but eh I was going to use that elsewhere also
15:29<andythenorth>so I keep livestock, and make food processor combine cargos, happy days
15:29<frosch123>i think it is about big fruits vs small fruits
15:29<frosch123>so hoppers vs "cages"
15:30<andythenorth>how about I split fruit to ‘palm products’ and ‘bananas’ or such?
15:30<frosch123>palm products sounds like edible oil
15:31<andythenorth>hmm
15:32<andythenorth>I intended it as the input to edible oil
15:32<andythenorth>along with nuts
15:33<andythenorth>yams? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(vegetable) o_O
15:33<andythenorth>http://foto.com.ng/static2/preview2/stock-photo-a-truck-filled-with-tubers-of-yam-19389.jpg
15:35<andythenorth>http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/15624521.jpg
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15:49<andythenorth>when did the windows version of OpenTTD get malware added? :o
15:50<andythenorth>Users/andy/Library/Application Support/CrossOver/Bottles/OpenTTD/drive_c/Program Files/OpenTTD/uninstall.exe: Win.Adware.Agent-59032 FOUND
15:50<Markk>It was a patch for 2 weeks ago
15:50<frosch123>uninstal.exe :p
15:50<Markk>Just for the lulz.
15:50<frosch123>the only virus i ever found on one of my computers was inside an uninstall.exe, which i never ran
15:51<Markk>:D
15:51<Markk>I havn't had a virus, malware or spyware in over 10 years now.
15:52<andythenorth>as far as you know
15:53<andythenorth>you really have no idea :)
15:54<Markk>I hate to use the computer of my matriarch, she clicks on ads, bad links in e-mails and install sheit she really shouldn't.
15:59<+glx>Markk: how many add-ons in IE ?
16:00<Markk>Too many
16:00<frosch123>toolbars on more than half of the screen?
16:00<Markk>And some sheit to a startpage
16:00<Markk>frosch123: Ye, something like that
16:01<+glx>5 minutes to launch the browser
16:01<Markk>Hah
16:01<Markk>Only 5 minutes?
16:01<andythenorth>that’s the obvious stuff
16:01<Markk>Took about 30-40 minutes to start the computer, start the browser and access google.com
16:02<Markk>I had a field day with removing most of it.
16:02<+glx>some things install others on uninstall
16:03<andythenorth>I love finding something called ‘roottools.conf'
16:03<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
16:03<+glx>and the important point is to disconnect internet before trying to clean stuff
16:04<andythenorth>eh well
16:06<andythenorth>also to never connect the computer to any network
16:06<andythenorth>nor use any removable storage
16:06<andythenorth>you also need to disable the microphone, video camera, and keyboard
16:06<frosch123>only access internet from within a vm, which you reset everyday :p
16:07<andythenorth>you can’t be sure the VM doesn’t have a keystroke logger
16:07<andythenorth>or that your motherboard doesn’t have firmware which sends your secrets somewhere
16:08<andythenorth>every key on your keyboard has a distinct sound, so with a good mic, your banking passwords are easy to learn
16:08<frosch123>all my passwords sound the same
16:08<frosch123>ctrl+c/v
16:08<andythenorth>your clipboard is logged though, eh
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>there was an incident a few years ago where a school gave out laptops, and then monitored the students through the builtin webcam
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>that didn't go over well :p
16:09<frosch123>yeah, i recall that one :p
16:09<Markk>eswst555es55 <- most of my keystrokes
16:09<andythenorth>I love stuff like this http://ikeymonitor.com
16:09<Markk>(Playing OTTD)
16:09<andythenorth>it’s astounding when people not only install malware, but pay for the privilege
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: what? the most common key is F1, followed by a and r
16:10<andythenorth>for just $200 / year, you can leak all the information from your business / family to criminals
16:11<frosch123>andythenorth: "Was looking for password logger and found it here. Logging passwords and keystrokes in my native language. Works better than other software" <- it has awesome reviews
16:11<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I never use F1 in OTTD?
16:11<andythenorth>they are awesome
16:11<andythenorth>I’m not saying that one *is* run by criminals
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: you must be playing multiplayer :p
16:11<andythenorth>for the record
16:11<Markk>5 is for railroad, s is for signals.
16:11<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Nope, SP.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>a is for railroad :p
16:12<andythenorth>also the ‘malware removal tools’ that are blatantly malware :P
16:12<andythenorth>for which users pay
16:12<Markk>No, 1-5 is the different types of railroads.
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes. a is the only type you need
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>and as a bonus it opens the rail toolbar if it's not already open
16:12<Markk>1-4 is the fixed-direction and 5 is the flexible one.
16:12<Markk>I always have it opened
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>not if you build other types of vehicles
16:13<frosch123>ottd still has no hotkeys to pick directions for depots and stuff
16:13<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I usually don't.
16:13<andythenorth>should ottd have those hotkeys?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i build trams a lot
16:13<andythenorth>I miss them sometimes, but otoh, I don’t remember shortcuts very well :P
16:13<frosch123>yes, they are the only buttons i regualry need to press by mouse
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>also, a is right next to s
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>5 is way over there
16:14<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: And I always make the railroad toolbar sticky, so it won't close when I hit delete to close the other windows.
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i would never reliably hit 5
16:14<andythenorth>I have to navigate station building UI with mouse
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: problem is that stickyness goes away if you switch construction types
16:14<Markk>Ye?
16:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: play the game somewhen
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>well... :p
16:15<frosch123>that has not been an issue for 2 years
16:15<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I mostly use railroads, so that's not an isse.
16:15<frosch123>stickyness can be saved on disk
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i still stick with a being better than 5
16:15<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I've used 5 for railraods for almost 11 years now, I'm not about to change it now.
16:16*andythenorth wonders how reliable Apple network traffic inspector is
16:16<andythenorth>and how easily malware could hide from it
16:16<andythenorth>should probably ask on some mac channel eh? :P
16:16<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Then you should use a, I respect your choise.
16:16<frosch123>anyway, the most imoprtant change i did to the default hotkeys was mapping "d" to depot, instead of useless dynamite
16:16<andythenorth>“fanbois say OS X is immune to viruses”
16:16<andythenorth>yeah
16:16<andythenorth>right
16:16<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: But I like 5 and I'm gonna stick to it.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>RELIGOUS WAR!!!
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>5 is the work of the devil!
16:17<andythenorth>how easy is to completely hide a process on *nix systems?
16:17<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: I'm a Satanist.
16:17<frosch123>andythenorth: i like the weeks when there are three independent headlines about secuirity issues with ios, android and winphone
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>5 is the number of corners of a pentagram
16:18<Markk>Yep
16:18<Markk>It's a beautiful sign.
16:18<frosch123>andythenorth: easy, give it a cryptic name like "flush-537"
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: is there a week without that?
16:18<Markk>I also have a necklace with a downwards-pointing crucifix.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: on windows you hide processes by naming them "svchost"
16:19<andythenorth>it would probably be much easier to just hide the process in some other app
16:19<andythenorth>like something in the ports tree
16:19<andythenorth>ports tree review standards are impeccable, right?
16:19<andythenorth>:P
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have no clue what ports tree is
16:19<andythenorth>your distro must have some equivalent thing with different name
16:19<andythenorth>you probably run yum update or whatever for it
16:20<andythenorth>ports is the BSD name
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>that's not really an explanation
16:20<@Rubidium>andythenorth: just run your malware at UEFI level and it'll be equally hidden from Windows, DOS, OS X, Unix, Linux, ...
16:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause it’s the package manager, where you literally bring in hundreds or thousands of untrusted packages, probably with sudo
16:21<andythenorth>Rubidium: yeah, but there’ s no mileage losing sleep over that. Not interesting
16:21<andythenorth>it’s like proposing that all the chips made in china leak secrets to chinese government
16:21<andythenorth>or that NSA have trivially cracked SSL
16:21<frosch123>i liked the story about the thing that spread to routers, and cleaned them from other malware
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if your malware escalated this far, you have a huge problem...
16:22<frosch123>esp. since my router became quite unstable over the years, but recently became better again :p
16:22<andythenorth>ha
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's industry standard that malware first fixes the security holes, to prevent other people from getting in as well and disturbing it
16:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: andy is brittish, he only communicates with key pairs, which the government handed to him
16:23*andythenorth couldn’t comment
16:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you think there’s no malware in any packages? o_O
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there were plenty of cases of malicious software for phones that distributed through the official app stores
16:25<andythenorth>yes, that’s an obvious attack vector
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>but the more obscure your distribution gets, the less likely is that anyone actually tries that
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>unless they are specifically targeting you.
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's also where the "there are no viruses for mac" mindset comes from. when macos was actually "obscure"
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>but it has definitely lost that state
16:30*andythenorth wonders
16:30<andythenorth>whenever I read a ‘security alert: how to protect your phone / mac / blah’
16:30<andythenorth>and it recommends downloading a third party tool
16:31<andythenorth>there is a little alarm sound in my head
16:31<andythenorth>tinfoil hat?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>that alarm is probably correct :p
16:31<andythenorth>I might have to start running everything in a VM
16:31<andythenorth>single-occ per application / service
16:32<andythenorth>that’s going to work brilliantly
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>don't phones already do that?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's a pretty good approach, actually. just you make it more problematic to share data between processes
16:34<frosch123>what data to share?
16:34<frosch123>all knowledge is on wikipedia
16:36<andythenorth>I wouldn’t be able to play openttd :P
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>things like "i wrote this text in $editor, now send it as e-mail"
16:36<andythenorth>nah can’t do that
16:36<andythenorth>isolated VM, no network access
16:36<andythenorth>and you’re not allowed to access to any volumes outside the VM
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>exactly.
16:37<andythenorth>but you can’t use any VMs anyway
16:37<andythenorth>because you don’t know if you can trust the hypervisor
16:37<andythenorth>and even if you thought you can trust the hypervisor, you can’t trust the host
16:38<andythenorth>and even if you trust the host, you can’t trust any network at all
16:38<andythenorth>nor any media
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: now you're in "you can't trust science anyway, so my religion is as valid as yours" territory
16:38<Wolf01>what if you can't trust the one between the keyboard and the chair?
16:38<andythenorth>you can’t do that either
16:38<andythenorth>you have to remove all admin permissions from them at least
16:39*andythenorth has been reading infosec advice / requirements from governments around the world
16:39<andythenorth>some is very very good
16:39<andythenorth>some is very very odd
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the thing is, you need SOMETHING to trust. it will never be 100%, but "close enough". to build your foundation
16:40<andythenorth>you have to build your own computer
16:40<andythenorth>from sand
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you're in with the flat-earthers and creationists and lizard-conspiracies
16:40<frosch123>yeah, something like the axiom of choice
16:40<andythenorth>and examine all the sand for nano-level manipulation
16:41<andythenorth>although the govt advice ‘most cyber attacks on businesses are caused by not setting passwords’ is quite genuinely useful
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you have no device for that observation that you can trust
16:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: and even if you did…evil demon hypothesis
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16:42<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that reminds me of when elementary logic came down to the question "is there an = function?"
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>because the basic logic axioms cannot create such a function. only a function that behaves like =, but cannot distinguish certain models
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>without such an = function, you cannot detect the presence of such an evil demon
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16:54<andythenorth>funny old epistemology
16:54<andythenorth>you just can’t count on anything eh?
16:54<andythenorth>and yet
16:55<andythenorth>the sun will also rise
16:56<andythenorth>none of this gets pixels drawn :D
16:56<frosch123>add some futuristic invisible engines
16:56<andythenorth>how will I know they’re there?
16:59<frosch123>just reverse the burden of proof
16:59<frosch123>bug reporters have to prove that they are not there
17:01<frosch123>also, ships cannot drive empty, they always have to transport some jetsam
17:01<frosch123>so, invisible ships are basically only cargo graphics
17:02<frosch123>btw. you should also add some cats throughout your graphics
17:02<frosch123>hide a cat in every firs industry
17:03<frosch123>my nephew had a picture book about a car workshop
17:04<frosch123>on every page some worker was just holding a coffee mug and was just watching
17:04<frosch123>though they took turns :)
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17:07<andythenorth>the cat thing :)
17:07<andythenorth>like where’s wally
17:07<andythenorth>or the artist who put a mouse in every painting
17:07<andythenorth>or a series of books when I was a child, find the yellow duck on every page
17:08<andythenorth>mostly in german (they were books to learn keywords)
17:08<frosch123>huh? what do brittish children learn from german books?
17:09<andythenorth>german mostly :P
17:10<frosch123>well, when i learned foreign languages i did no longer search for yellow ducks :)
17:10<M-E>frosch123: nazism! :P
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i somehow doubt the effectiveness of that
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17:11<andythenorth>me too :)
17:12<andythenorth>my german is not good
17:12<frosch123>my sister-in-law and brother-in-law-in-law-in-law are english and read some english books to my nephews. from that i know that the language is of little importance
17:12<andythenorth>can’t even remember how to say schlect
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17:12<frosch123>as long as you read something to them :p
17:12*andythenorth also must go to sleep
17:12<andythenorth>bye
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17:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: children books are useful. things like the summoning dark cannot handle them
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence does not parse
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18:03<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: maybe sentences containing the term "the summoning dark" are better left unparsed
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18:18<Wolf01>'night
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19:50<zooks>trying to add a new metro rail type to the metro track set, but it doesn't show up in the build list?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>zooks: will only show up when you have a vehicle that runs on it
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>zooks: there are some properties you can set so it shows up when another railtype is available
19:54<zooks>right, but why does the standard underground urban show up? I copied the compatible_railtype_list etc
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>it'll probably be near the place which defines starting year and such
20:03<zooks>ah thanks, it was actually adding an introduction date that fixed it.
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21:00<zooks>How do I define a track where ALL possible trains can run on, regardless of trainset,type,power,mono/maglev,etc?
21:01<Supercheese>sounds like the Universal rail
21:02<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=50041
21:08<zooks>well, I actually want to make about 4 track types that do this, so I was hoping there was a way without redefining railtypes
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 05 00:00:35 2016