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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-06

---Logopened Sat Feb 06 00:00:37 2016
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03:43<andythenorth>comes, goes
03:47<@Alberth>haha, the load looks heavier than the carrying truck :)
03:48<andythenorth>it is probably only 120hp engine too
03:48<andythenorth>low gearing though
03:53<andythenorth>hmm Road Hog
03:53<andythenorth>first 2 generations of trucks can’t reach their top speed, HP is too low
03:53<andythenorth>if they have 16 tiles or so of flat straight road they get to top speed
03:53<Supercheese>add more horses
03:54<andythenorth>the capacity is about twice realism
03:55<V453000>I really hate realistic acceleration for RVs tbh
03:55<andythenorth>which means laden weight is twice realism
03:55<andythenorth>so I should just cheat HP, yes?
03:55<Supercheese>which mean duplex horses
03:55<Supercheese>should be dependent on your parameter setting no?
03:56<andythenorth>possibly yes
03:56<andythenorth>boring to code that
03:56<Supercheese>well, not extra code, I mean your parameters already state that the capacities are more-than-realistic
03:56<Supercheese>so extra horses is expected as well
03:57<Supercheese>extra code optional
03:57<andythenorth>well I could adjust HP to match capacity cheat
03:57<Supercheese>parameters are nice, but yeah they conflate your switch blocks massivelyt
03:57<andythenorth>dunno if I care
03:58<V453000>I am always trapped between the idea of "parameters are nice to have"and "you should just put the grf in the game and it should just work"
03:58<V453000>sensible defaults are certainly helpful but still
03:59<_johannes>is there something like int32_t in the openttd source?
04:00<_johannes>ah found it, nvm
04:01<andythenorth>V453000: I am “you should just put it in the game and it should work"
04:01<andythenorth>but a few parameters for cheating are ok
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04:26<andythenorth>ha looks like I already made RV TE much higher than default
04:26<andythenorth>because otherwise acceleration sucks
04:31<_johannes>for that graph converter I'm writing, I need a small header + cpp file which need both be included by openttd and the exporter...
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04:31<_johannes>what is a good place in the source tree to put these files?
04:32<_johannes>also, where should I put the cpp file for the external graph converter? (it has its own main() function)
04:34<Flygon>I want to
04:34<Flygon>Well, I just hit the wrong channel
04:34<Flygon>Hi #openttd!
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04:50<@Alberth>_johannes: look at eg how strgen does it
04:50<_johannes>Alberth: they have an own directory
04:51<_johannes>so I should put the common files there, too?
04:52<@Alberth>and strgen uses code of the main program , like #include "../misc/getoptdata.h"
04:53<@Alberth>common code is best in src, and not in directories of other programs
04:54<@Alberth>makes it easy to strip out all the additional programs
04:54<andythenorth>TE coefficient capped at 1
04:54<@Alberth>I hope it's afraction? :)
04:55<andythenorth>0-1, float
04:55<andythenorth>I need more than 1 :P
04:56<_johannes>Alberth: should common files also be in the src directory if that common code is only use by openttd for the graph video driver?
04:57<@Alberth>aren't there dedicated directories for video drivers?
04:58<@Alberth>not sure that "graph" is a very useful name, it feels a bit too generic
04:58<_johannes>Alberth: yes, but I don't want to spoil them with files like "common.h" :P
04:58<_johannes>Alberth: yes, maybe railnet or something might be better
04:58<@Alberth>a lot of things can be called "graph", not in the last place all the cargo-dist stuff
04:59<@Alberth>I wouldn't worry too much about the place of the file; it's easy to move it afterwards
04:59<andythenorth>“Use more specific, concrete, and informative synonyms like users_by_id or on_success.”
04:59<andythenorth>“Vague names like lookup_table or callback are useless in much application code"
05:00<_johannes>Alberth: ok, thanks
05:01<@Alberth>nice andy :)
05:01<@Alberth>I have already started to see program code as just text like a normal report, but it just happens to be understandable for a computer too :)
05:03<Milek7>server can modify companies money?
05:09<andythenorth>there is a nice quote from the novelist Kingsley Amis “the purpose of writing is to be understood"
05:09<andythenorth>applies to code also
05:09<andythenorth>even if the only reader is Future You
05:11<@planetmaker>Milek7, with the proper game script: yes
05:11<@Alberth>/me makes link from understandable code to documented code
05:11<@planetmaker>good morning everyone :)
05:11<@Alberth>mornink planetmaker
05:13<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
05:13<@Alberth>right, doxymentation is not different, it's an extension of writing understandable code....
05:14<@Alberth>yep good morning indeed, merged two topics into one :)
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05:19<V453000>just increase weight andy
05:19<V453000>if you need moar TE
05:19<V453000>idk how that works with RVs but with trains it is the only way :)
05:19<V453000>heyo pm
05:20<Flygon>I'd love someday
05:20<Flygon>To roll out roads just like traintracks in OpenTTD
05:20<Flygon>But that'd be a major MAJOR patch :3
05:20<V453000>roll out?
05:20<Flygon>One lane per tile
05:21<Flygon>More realistic things like... say
05:21<Flygon>You have a Freeway offramp
05:21<Flygon>So you create another lane to the left
05:21<Flygon>It goes for a hundred or so meters
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05:21<Flygon>Then diverges off to the other road
05:21<Flygon>(assuming drive on the left)
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05:22<@Alberth>you'll get hopelessly entangled in the grid limitations very fast, I think
05:22<@Alberth>I once tried working out how to do a diagonal road in a grid, and it failed for me
05:23<Flygon>I'm no computer scientist
05:23<Flygon>Or scientist
05:23<Flygon>Or coder
05:23<Flygon>Or anything really intelligent
05:23<V453000>same as rails
05:23<Flygon>I'm not smart
05:23<Flygon>Sorry :)
05:23<V453000>but the thing is, the roads would be surprisingly ugly for you
05:23<V453000>current roads have round corners
05:23<V453000>diagonal roads couldn't
05:23<@Alberth>Flygon: not in code, just on paper, in a grid
05:24<Flygon>Well... they COULD have rounded corners with a lot of beating around making a shitload of art assets
05:24<Flygon>And tricky coding
05:24<Flygon>But then it becomes a mangled mess of trying to make shit pretty
05:24<andythenorth>in the 1st generation, these trucks have 150% of realistic HP
05:24<V453000>not happening wiht openttd
05:24<Flygon>Yeah, pmuch
05:24<andythenorth>but by 4th generation they have 100% of realistic HP
05:24<Flygon>Perhaps with a 3D rendererr
05:24<andythenorth>because trucks
05:24<Flygon>But not 2D
05:25<Flygon>Pre-rendering hits the same issues with trying to render EVERYTHING
05:25<andythenorth>* assuming all truck companies buy most powerful Volvo / Scania trucks
05:25<Flygon>Same thing happens with any computer app :D
05:25<Flygon>Do you pre-render a visual effect? Or do you generate it live?
05:25<Flygon>It's just easier to generate it live
05:25<Flygon>Even if your hardware's really weak
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05:26<Flygon>We're not going to implement a 3D renderer into OpenTTD, I presume xP
05:27<andythenorth>hmm, I could do Dutch lorries :P
05:27<andythenorth>then power could be 50% of what it is now
05:27<V453000>This NewGRF is not expecting any hills.
05:28<andythenorth>flat country, frugal truck drivers
05:28<andythenorth>truck HP has been pushed upwards constantly by Scania and Volvo
05:28<andythenorth>Scania had 350hp in 1968
05:28*andythenorth truck nerd
05:28<andythenorth>not just a train channel
05:29<V453000>I actually wanted to make a RV set for some weird reason
05:29<V453000>one of them :)
05:29<andythenorth>bit super realisms though :)
05:29<V453000> rest :D
05:30<andythenorth>sooner have BRIX style RVs
05:31<V453000>will see, but probably won't be using these models anywhere for now :D
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05:31<andythenorth>they’re nice, but not TTD eh
05:31<V453000>anything can be TTD eh
05:32<andythenorth>eh eh?
05:32<Flygon>Let's put a Flygon into OpenTTD
05:32<Flygon>Passenger capacity: 1
05:32<andythenorth>ah, the world of not enough sleep for andythenorth
05:32<Flygon>Airspeed: I cbf doing the calculations
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05:33<Supercheese>wouldn't work well in arctics, Flygon's are 4x vulnerable to ice IIRC
05:33<Flygon>o snap
05:33<Supercheese>errr Flygons*
05:33<Supercheese>or if pokeys even use plurals
05:33<Supercheese>might be non-count nouns
05:34<Supercheese>but yeah dragon/ground or something is very bad against ice
05:34<Flygon>Flygon and Flygons are both acceptable multiples
05:34<Flygon>"That's a lot of Flygon!"
05:34<Flygon>"Those Flygon are crazy!"
05:35<argoneus>good morning train friends
05:35<Supercheese>I know Japanese has no plural form for their nouns
05:35<Flygon>"I've seen a lot of Flygons in my time, but this one's the stupidest"
05:35<Supercheese>but most things get localized with their own English names
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05:46<argoneus>Supercheese: they kinda do
05:47<argoneus>they just add -tachi or something after it
05:47<argoneus>just like adding -s
05:47<Supercheese>for pronouns sure, but not for general nouns eh
05:47<argoneus>I don't really speak jap so you're probably right
05:52<Supercheese>Well, neither do I, but I like reading about other languages' features that are very different from English
05:52<Supercheese>like German and its prefix conjugations
05:53<Supercheese>I had only ever encountered suffix conjugations in English, Spanish, and Latin, so it was very different
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05:57<Supercheese>even though the prefixing seems limited to the past participle
06:00<Ketsuban>I've generally understood -tachi as being more akin to "and co" than "-s".
06:01<Ketsuban>Aside from certain special cases (e.g. wareware "we", from ware "I") Japanese genuinely has no plurals.
06:03<Ketsuban>If you like foreign grammatical structures you might find the use of count words in Japanese and Chinese interesting - it's something we have in English (head of cattle, slices of bread) but they use it much more (it's more or less obligatory, and they can get quite specialised, e.g. there's a count word for aircraft).
06:04<Supercheese>with no grammatical number, it would indeed seem necessary
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06:09<sark>hey guys
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06:18<andythenorth>comes, goes
06:18<andythenorth>quite the pattern
06:31<@Alberth>andy and albert do it too, we just wait a little longer :)
06:33<andythenorth>articulated trucks and TE :P
06:38<andythenorth>to get proper value for TE, I need to move some % of capacity to the lead unit
06:38<andythenorth>boring :P
06:47<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> comes, goes <-- you are certainly a master of that skill...
06:47<andythenorth>I talk more in between
06:48<andythenorth>so articulated RVs, the unladen weight is all on lead unit
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you are also master of monologues
06:48<andythenorth>but the cargo weight is applied per vehicle?
06:48*andythenorth might have to read RV physics
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's all combined in the head unit
06:49<andythenorth>I thought so
06:49<andythenorth>my code thinks so
06:49<andythenorth>TE calculation doesn’t concur
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure the code is a terrible mess :p
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06:53<andythenorth>purchase menu disagrees with vehicle in game
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>purchase menu is tricky with articulated parts
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>because callbacks cannot be run for the articulated parts
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>since they don't exist
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>it just extrapolates by (number of vehicles)*properties
06:58<frosch123>that is not true
06:58<frosch123>the callbacks are run for all articulated parts
06:59<frosch123>just the callback cannot check the position in the chain
06:59<frosch123>you cannot check other vehicle ids and stuff
07:00<andythenorth>according to spec, weight is on the lead unit for RVs
07:00<andythenorth>and trailing parts should be 0
07:03<andythenorth>hmm Road Hog does bad
07:03<andythenorth>trailing parts are not 0
07:03<andythenorth>happens to work ok
07:03*andythenorth should fix that
07:03<frosch123>currently ottd does not care about the weight of trailing parts
07:04<frosch123>the spec says it should be 0, in case ottd 3.0 adds support for them having weight
07:04<frosch123>and so that behaviour does not change
07:04*andythenorth is going to fix that anyway
07:04<andythenorth>because confusing
07:10<Milek7>local v = GSTownList ();
07:10<Milek7>while (!v.IsEnd ())
07:10<Milek7> GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (v.GetValue (v.Next ())));
07:10<Milek7>why this not work?
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07:14<@Alberth>why do you "v.GetValue" if "v.Next" already gives the next item?
07:14<frosch123>use "foreach (town in v) { GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }" or "for (local town = v.Begin(); !v.IsEnd(); v = v.Next()) { ... }"
07:15<frosch123>in your case "v" is a list, not an iterator
07:15<frosch123>also, you skip the first element, and access the one element past the end
07:16<frosch123>"for (local town = v.Begin(); !town.IsEnd(); town = town.Next()) { ... }" <- mistyped the second example, this is better
07:18<frosch123>no, ah, this is confusing
07:21<Milek7>local v = GSTownList (); foreach (town in v) { GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }
07:21<Milek7>this prints one name in loop
07:21<frosch123> <- anyway, two example for other scripts
07:24<_johannes>how likely is it that the bit width of StationID (2 bytes) or CargoID (1 byte) will change in the future?
07:24<Milek7>ok, this with for (local it = indtypes.Begin(); !indtypes.IsEnd(); it = indtypes.Next()) works
07:27<frosch123>andythenorth: how does the flour mill work?
07:27<frosch123>the text says: 3t per 8t man supplies, 5t per 8t maize/cassava
07:27<frosch123>but it also says production steps up of man supplies are delivered
07:28<andythenorth>it combines mnsp with any other delivered cargo
07:28<andythenorth>bit weird, but never thought of a better solution
07:28<andythenorth>there are multiple industries using the same mechanic
07:29<frosch123>so, do man supplies result in production on their own?
07:29<frosch123>does the 5t per 8t change when man supplies are delivered?
07:31<andythenorth>3t + 5t = 8t
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07:32<andythenorth>most secondaries just sum the ratios for the inputs
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07:32<andythenorth>but for some, the ratio would then exceed 8 if summed
07:33<frosch123> <- uhm, so result 1 or result 2?
07:34<andythenorth>result 2
07:34<frosch123>ok :)
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07:45*andythenorth must deep copy
07:45<andythenorth>or maybe just copy
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07:46<andythenorth>I have an object (represents a vehicle), I need to copy it to insert it multiple times into a list, with different props
07:46<andythenorth>copy is probably ok?
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07:48<andythenorth>meh it’s all a mess :|
07:48<sark>hey guys
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: very unlikely
07:50<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
07:52<sark>How are you guys doing ?
07:58<@Alberth>lacking coffee
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08:12<andythenorth>sometimes, to do a greater good
08:12<andythenorth>a small evil is necessary
08:12<thecurryguy_>Hello People
08:12<thecurryguy_>hey andy
08:12<V453000>big evil is not a bad thing either
08:13<V453000>what did you do andythenorth ?
08:13<thecurryguy_>hey V453
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08:14<thecurryguy_>nm I just joined the forums
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08:15<andythenorth>“# semi-trucks need some capacity moved to lead unit to gain sufficient TE…this automagically does that"
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08:18<_johannes>does someone think that "railnet" is a good name for the railway network exporter? is it clear enough?
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08:19<thecurryguy>woops chrome crashed
08:21<@Alberth>_johannes: ever plan to extend to roads or shipping lines?
08:21<@Alberth>or air thingies?
08:21<thecurryguy>hey alberth
08:21<_johannes>Alberth: Good question. I wonder if it's still overviewable if you add bus nets to each station...
08:21<@Alberth>hi hi thecurryguy
08:21<_johannes>for plains, it might make more sense...
08:22<thecurryguy>I have a query
08:22<thecurryguy>can you guys help me out a bit
08:22<@Alberth>thecurryguy: the usual tactic is to just dump the qeustion :)
08:23<thecurryguy>I read the chat rules sorry won't happen again :)
08:23<thecurryguy>well which are the must have grfs ?
08:23<@Alberth>np, many new users do that :)
08:23<@Alberth>haha :)
08:23<_johannes>Alberth: any better idea to get other things like plains into the name? just calling it "net" doesn't make it more clear than "graph", I think
08:23<@Alberth>"planes" then
08:23<@Alberth>vehicle-nets ?
08:24<_johannes>is a plane a vehicle? oO
08:24<@Alberth>aircraft then :)
08:24<thecurryguy>I already have the Japanese net set
08:24<_johannes>it can only "drive" on an airport
08:24<@Alberth>thecurryguy: well, what kind of game do you play?
08:24<thecurryguy>wrong it can only park on an airport
08:24<_johannes>yes, but aircraft-net makes it strange for trains :P
08:25<@Alberth>there is no such thing as universal must-have newgrfs
08:25<@Alberth>everybody plays openttd :p
08:25<@Alberth>but some focus on transport
08:25<thecurryguy>but still something that every one should have
08:25<@Alberth>others on making nice pictures or mimicing real-life stations
08:26<@Alberth>some want to make big complicated junctions
08:26<@Alberth>or be very competitive
08:26<thecurryguy>well I am more of a creator you can say
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08:27<thecurryguy>Hey George
08:27<@Alberth> thecurryguy <-- that your kind of things ?
08:28<@Alberth>a whole forum filled with them :)
08:28<thecurryguy>Damn yes
08:28<V453000>when I see this kind of shit, my beain is committing suicide
08:29<@Alberth>thecurryguy: you want newobject newgrfs then, the forum there has lists, and zillion of pictures for drooling at
08:31<V453000>true beauty:
08:32<thecurryguy>Damn *_*
08:32<andythenorth>all kinds of wrong :P
08:33<V453000>I find it hard to identify what kind of wrong actually andythenorth :P
08:33<@Alberth>I hope you don't have to jump trains to go to work V :) looks like a bad place for a HQ
08:34<LordAro>Alberth: you think V walks anywhere? he has helicopters
08:34<@Alberth>hmm, of course, why didn't I think of that :p
08:34<@Alberth>hi hi LordAro
08:35<thecurryguy>Alberth do you host ?
08:35<frosch123>LordAro: i doubt he uses a helicopeter, he rather rides a yeti
08:35<@Alberth>thecurryguy: ?
08:35<LordAro>frosch123: ah, of course
08:36<LordAro>yetis can easily jump the tracks
08:36<andythenorth>correct approach to junctions :P
08:36<thecurryguy>Alberth I mean multiplayer match or something like that
08:37<andythenorth>hey look, some of those signals are wrong way roung
08:37<andythenorth>that won’t help
08:37<@Alberth>thecurryguy: no
08:41<LordAro>Your username or IP address has been blocked. "
08:42<LordAro>(on the wiki)
08:42<LordAro>frosch123: undo block id #5 please? :)
08:43<Flygon>andythenorth: Clearly this is better :3
08:44<frosch123>LordAro: not possible, it does those things automatically
08:44<frosch123>they expire after some hours
08:44<LordAro>"an expiry time of indefinite"
08:44<V453000>can someone ban Flygon please?
08:44<LordAro>was put in place a month ago
08:44<Flygon>Wait, why? O_o
08:45<Wolf01>unrealistic spam
08:45<Flygon>Oh c'maaarn
08:45<frosch123>LordAro: basically we ban users on the wiki, the wiki then randomly decides to ban the internal ip of the webgateway
08:45<Flygon>You know whyyyy I posted that in reply to his :D
08:45<V453000>I find it offensive
08:45<Flygon>I think it's NSFW :D
08:46<LordAro>frosch123: odd
08:46<LordAro>wonder how many other people have my IP address
08:46<Wolf01>I have too many games, I don't know which one could entertain me today :|
08:46<Flygon>I'd rather build a stack interchange
08:46<@Alberth>Flygon: lots of space for such a low quantity of trains
08:46<frosch123>LordAro: it's not your ip adress :p
08:46<Flygon>But pre-1940s, a non-weaving cloverleaf has less hills to climb for low-TE equipment
08:47<frosch123>LordAro: it's the ip of's own webgateway
08:47<Flygon>Also, OpenTTD makes building a FAST stack interchange a nightmare
08:47<frosch123>thus it blocks random users for random hours or something
08:48<LordAro>frosch123: that's... odd
08:48<@Alberth>can't have users actually using the wiki, obviously
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08:49<frosch123>andythenorth: <- it works :)
08:49<frosch123>i am not sure about the default values
08:50<frosch123>i don't like the original ones, so i changed them to my liking :p
08:50<Flygon>Noting that I also play for aesthetics
08:50<andythenorth>do you know which ones you changed?
08:51<andythenorth>and are you going to push a commit?
08:52<frosch123>i reduced the effect of enhanced to +40% instead of +100%
08:53<frosch123>i increased the requirement for gung ho from 400% to 1000%, and reduced the effect from +300% to +260%
08:54<frosch123>the gameplay effect is, that you can easily get enhanced on all industries
08:54<andythenorth>but not gung ho
08:54<frosch123>but gung ho only for very few
08:54<andythenorth>gung ho isn’t fun
08:54<frosch123>in my game i put all industries to enhanced using railmotors
08:54<andythenorth>push it, I can test it in my current game?
08:54<frosch123>and dumped all remaining supplies into one industry to reach gung ho
08:54<andythenorth>it’s all cbs iirc so I can reload newgrfs
08:55<andythenorth>frosch123: clearly you weren’t using cdist? :P
08:55<frosch123>yep :p
08:55<frosch123>i rather miss factorio style conditional orders, than cdist
08:56<andythenorth>? o_O
08:57<frosch123>stuff like "only go to station if more than 200t are waiting"
08:57<frosch123>would allow me to distribute low amounts of supplies continuously
08:57<V453000>how about having more levels than just 3?
08:57<frosch123>but remove any remaining stuff
08:57<frosch123>currently i do the latter my using non full load orders with big tranis
08:58<frosch123>V453000: makes no sense
08:58<V453000>why not? :D
08:58<frosch123>you get more output by spreading cargo
08:58<frosch123>gung ho is only consolation prize
08:59<frosch123>if you have nowhere to spread to anymore
08:59<V453000>what do you mean?
08:59<frosch123>the goal of "enhanced" is to deliver some supplies to everyone
08:59<frosch123>the point of "gung ho" is only so you can do something if you have "enhanced" everywhere, but still leftover supplies
09:00<frosch123>it makes no sense to boost some industries to "gung ho", but leave others at "normal"
09:00<Ketsuban>andythenorth: by the way, thank you for making Iron Horse, Road Hog and SQUID. I like your aesthetic choices and your balance of verisimilitude and gameplay. :) Will you be doing a plane set?
09:00<V453000>yes but what if you had normal 1, normal 1+20%, normal 1 +40%, ... ?, normal 1 +100% = gung ho
09:00<V453000>way less "ok now I have this"
09:01<andythenorth>Ketsuban: nah, pikka has done AV9, planes are solved :)
09:01<andythenorth>I use AV9 in every game
09:02<andythenorth>V453000: for that I would just do a totally alternative mechanic
09:02<andythenorth>like ‘level up’ or so, more linear
09:02<Ketsuban>Heh. Yeah, I use av9 too - it seemed like the most appropriate complement. Just wondered if you had any plans for your own set of planes, to ensure balance against your other sets.
09:02<andythenorth>enhanced / gung ho is so simple, no thinking required
09:02<frosch123>andythenorth: pull
09:02<V453000>well it would probably just be closer and closer to how yeti behaves, so probably just leave it :)
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like there are too many conversations here simultaneously
09:03<V453000>I just think that 3 levels feel super basic
09:03<frosch123>V453000: i think levels are more interesting than a continuous curve
09:04<V453000>sure but 3?
09:04<frosch123>if you add more levels, it becomes a curve
09:04<V453000>well sure if you do add too many
09:05<frosch123>andythenorth: you may have to check the grf parameters in your game
09:05<frosch123>i am not sure whether they get the default values, or are set to zero
09:05*andythenorth will check
09:12<andythenorth>nothing is gung-ho any more :D
09:15<andythenorth>that unwanted industry window text is annoying eh?
09:15<andythenorth>‘cargo waiting to be processed'
09:23<frosch123>i don't think it's a game stopper :p
09:24<andythenorth>been there long enough :P
09:25<andythenorth>I’ve ignored it enough times :P
09:26<andythenorth>frosch123: unsupplied industries are claiming ‘gung ho’? o_O
09:27<frosch123>in existing game? or in new game?
09:28<frosch123>also which parameters? if the requirement drops to zero, then all are gung-ho :p
09:29<andythenorth>in new game
09:29<andythenorth>maybe I restart openttd
09:29<andythenorth>action 14 can be highly cached
09:31<andythenorth>looks better now
09:32<frosch123>ok :)
09:32<frosch123>bbl, it's sunny outside
09:39<Milek7>when no company is selected it will return all stations or none?
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09:58<andythenorth>Road Hog probably good enough for 0.1.0
09:58<andythenorth>but shopping and chores
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10:25<Milek7>tiles with town roads have 'local authority' value
10:25<Milek7>and if player place station on this tile, it will still have 'local authority' value
10:26<Milek7>but, if station is placed on road tile created during game (ie. not map generation, but town growth), then 'local authority' value sets to 'none'
10:26<Milek7>it is bug?
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10:45<_johannes>I have a question about implicit trains
10:45<_johannes>right now, if a trains goes from A to B without explicitly mentioning that it shold drive nonstop, then implicit stations can be added
10:46<_johannes>however, now, I have an express train that goes from A to B *nonstop* ... would it be possible to add the stations as waypoints?
10:46<_johannes>would it even make sense, as express trains could take another route from A to B every time?
10:48<_johannes>I ask because right now, the graph exporter has no clue what route express trains take, so it draws strait lines through the map... it looks bad...
10:49<Milek7>maybe you want order "Go non-stop via"?
10:49<_johannes>Milek7: usually not, if an express train leaves 30 stations out I don't want to add them as "nonstop via" by hand
10:51<Milek7>i think it is not possible without patching game
10:51<_johannes>would it make sense to patch it?
10:54<@Alberth>I don't think it makes sense, as your graph is for passengers getting on and of the train, which doesn't really work if it drives by at 100km//h
10:55<@Alberth>also, trains avoid platforms if they can, so it would fail in the general case
10:56<_johannes>Alberth: Currently, it's looking ugly in my graph because express trains draw lines through the desert...
10:56<_johannes>It makes the who railway net looking more confusing imo
10:57<@Alberth>I can see that
10:57<@Alberth>but if it 'visits' stations wouldn't that give incorrect information?
10:57<_johannes>I mean bypassing
10:58<_johannes>e.g. next to Stuttgart, there are many stations that are being bypassed sometimes
10:58<_johannes>Plochingen, Vaihingen etc.
10:59<@Alberth>600KB for a few lines and circles :p
10:59<_johannes>Deutsche Bahn :D
10:59<@Alberth>yeah, I can see the value too
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11:00<@Alberth>nah, just stupid software :p
11:00<_johannes>or could I just run the pathfinding algorithm from the game to find out the paths?
11:00<_johannes>is this easy?
11:01<@Alberth>tbh go via non-step orders would make the most sense to me, as you explicitly list the stations you drive by
11:01<@Alberth>as Milek7 suggested
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11:02<_johannes>Alberth: imagine you have 5 stations with 10 trains, each passing them all by
11:02<@Alberth>otherwise it's just random, shortest direction doesn't need to be the correct one
11:03<_johannes>Now, if you hard coded all nonstop-vias, and sooner decide to make a hightspeed way bypassing all five, you will have to tell all express trains about this...
11:03<Milek7>TownID ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority(TileIndex tile)
11:03<_johannes>It's a lot of ingame work :-/
11:03<Milek7>Town *town = ::ClosestTownFromTile(tile, _settings_game.economy.dist_local_authority);
11:04<Milek7>why this isn't accounting town growth?
11:04<Milek7>but takes distance from settings?
11:04<@Alberth>you know about cloned orders? _johannes
11:05<_johannes>Alberth: yes, but that 10 trains might have different start and finish points
11:05<_johannes>Alberth: I don't like the idea restricting express trains to a path... it's not flexible
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11:06<_johannes>also, imagine if there's a traffic jam on your route, trains will still be force to take the via-stations you inserted...
11:06<@Alberth>for people using time tables, it's probably required anyway
11:06<@Alberth>so you don't mind if your chart is telling lies?
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11:07<_johannes>it should make sense... if 90% of your trains go A->C->B, would'nt it be strange to draw the line as A->D->B ?
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11:10<@Alberth>run a path finder then? you seem to have already decided
11:10<_johannes>Alberth: either that, or asking for a patch that implicit nonstop stations are added into the order list
11:11<Milek7>so, only accurate way to check within which town authority station is, is iterating over each town and checking IsWithinTownInfluence?
11:11<@Alberth>I am not even sure that concept exists
11:12<@Alberth>it's just track that the path finder is forced to follow
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11:13<@Alberth>and there is no game play reason for adding these stations if you could
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11:14<@Alberth>it just add to the overhead without benefit for normal game play
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11:14<_johannes>Yes, agreed...
11:15<_johannes>Maybe I'm just having fun with the pathfinder now..
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11:15<@Alberth>it has sufficient layers of templates for fun :p
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11:22<drac_boy>did find a few triplex steam setups from some books so far...still got a lot more to look up tho :p
11:22<drac_boy>still looking for something to do with the SAR condensing gears but thats perhaps another topic tho heh
11:23<frosch123>wrong channel? :p
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11:27<_johannes>if a train is in a station, and both station exits lead to the next order... I think it chooses the exit with the shorter route?
11:27*_johannes tries that out
11:28<@Rubidium>if you replace "shorter route" with "least perceived costs", then yes
11:28<@Rubidium>where there is some cost for turning around, signals, corners, and loads of other things
11:29<_johannes>wow I just saw that it takes the longer route...
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>given that trning around is even enabled
11:29<@Alberth>positions of other trains count too
11:29<_johannes>hmm let's make the turnaround more attractive :D
11:29<@Alberth>sharp corners are bad
11:29*drac_boy pokes frosch wondering why there are steam vehicles in grfs? ;)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>going through signals backwards is a rather big penalty
11:30<drac_boy>alberth the kind that looks like a V turn? :)
11:30<@Alberth>drac_boy: I am as astonished as you are
11:31<_johannes>ok the other route must be long enough, then the train turns around
11:39<_johannes>I thought trains turn around in stations via CMD_REVERSE_TRAIN_DIRECTION , but this seems only be used for depots...
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's for when you click the reverse button in the train gui
11:40<_johannes>can someone pls check where in the code a train makes the decision in which direction the current station needs to be exited?
11:40<_johannes>oh, then it's not the command?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>commands are only for user interactions
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>or, mostly, at least
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>things that happen during train movement are rooted in TrainController
11:41<drac_boy>hm heres a thought for anyone who'll like to try draw a different kind of bus that'll use up a rail id instead
11:41<drac_boy>(the buffers makes me wonder if its meant to be able to couple to rail wagons which probably a player may want to try do?)
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11:45<drac_boy>and anyway..have to go make some lunch now sorry :p
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11:46<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: in TrainController, it indeed calls ChooseTrainTrack() for path finding, however, it gives enterdir as a parameter
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: leaving station has a special case somewhere that looks both directions
11:47<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: is this special check in the pathfinder, or outside?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>so it'll call the pathfinder twice.
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>once with the current direction, and once with the reversed direction
11:49<_johannes>hmm it's only called once inside TrainController... is TrainController called twice then?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'd look for OT_LEAVING, or the setting that controls reversing in stations
11:51<_johannes>any idea how this setting could be named in the code?
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>grep settings.txt for "reverse"?
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be a difficulty setting
11:54<_johannes>difficulty.line_reverse_mode ?
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>so, check where that is used
12:01<_johannes>ah, ChooseTrainTrack calls DoTrainPathfind twice
12:01<_johannes>with opposite directions
12:01<_johannes>that's probably it
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12:04<_johannes>but the second call to DoTrainPathfind is only done if the waiting position is not safe?
12:04<_johannes>I don't understand it
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12:05<_johannes>I have an example map where the waiting position is safe (afaik), and the train yet turns around
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>you're probably misreading it
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think that is about reserving a path INTO the station
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>if the platform does not end with a signal, it needs to continue reserving, even though it already arrived at the destination
12:09<_johannes>ok, no, that's not what we need :)
12:09<Milek7>train_cmd.cpp:static bool CheckReverseTrain(const Train *v)
12:10<_johannes>Milek7: I found that, too, but it does only check if a train *can* be reversed, not if it makes sense to reverse it?
12:11<_johannes>oh! indeed! that calls the pathfinder again..
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12:20<Wolf01>"Remove Mods from Saves/ Add Mods to Saves", so, for 'every game with modding' I find this in the forums, I think the problem is really difficult to understand
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12:39<thecurryguy>hey guya
12:47<andythenorth>what’s to stop me putting something evil in a newgrf makefile?
12:47<andythenorth>like recursive rm or something
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12:48<andythenorth>presumably none of you read the incoming commits when you pull?
12:50<frosch123>we trust in you stepping into your own trap before anyone else would pull
12:56<Milek7>hm, how many ticks game scripts can take?
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: things like that do happen occasionally
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>like misplaced spaces turning "rm -rf /path/to/blah" into "rm -rf / path/to/blah"
13:37<Milek7>what is planned cargo?
13:38<frosch123>have you played with cargodist?
13:38<frosch123>in the station gui you can select "planned cargo"
13:38<frosch123>which is what cdist expects in the future, as extrapolated from the past
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>"planned" is some kind of average flow
13:39<Milek7>ok, thanks
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15:21<Milek7>i if do in squirrel class stations = []; then it acts like static
15:22<Milek7>but when stations = null; and stations = []; in constructor it works fine
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15:49<Eddi|zuHause>wo what are you asking?
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16:12<Milek7>GSStationList_CargoPlannedByVia also includes final destinations?
16:24<andythenorth>but is it just malware?
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16:33<frosch123>what's next?
16:33<frosch123>eints sortable tables?
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16:40*andythenorth is too busy making tinfoil hats
16:40<andythenorth>can’t make anything else
16:40<andythenorth>computing is dangerous
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 07 00:00:38 2016