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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-07

---Logopened Sun Feb 07 00:00:38 2016
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06:09<Milek7>station can influence rating of many towns, or only one?
06:11<@Alberth>only one, I think
06:21<Milek7>hm, GSStation.IsWithinTownInfluence can return true for two towns
06:22<@Alberth>:O
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: the station doesn't even need to be near the town it's affecting
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can get very far away with stationwalking
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>but as long as the original name stays the same, the affected town stays the same
06:25<Milek7>where is the code checking affecting stations?
06:26<Milek7>it use cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0] or something else?
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>the town is only calculated on initial station construction
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>and then stored in the station
06:29<Milek7>static void UpdateTownRating(Town *t)
06:29<Milek7>if (DistanceSquare(st->xy, t->xy) <= t->cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0]) {
06:29<Milek7>it checks distance
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>then it's even weirder
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>but still "t" will be the associated town stored in the station
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>this check then will filter out stations that are too far away
06:32<Milek7>t is current town
06:32<Milek7>and it checks for FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) {
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think those are enough fragments to decide what this code is doing
06:34-!-frosch123 [~frosch@x5f74328c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd
06:34<Milek7>it's simple
06:34<Milek7>iterating over all stations, compares distance with t->cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0] and adjusts rating
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06:58<Milek7>value set by GSTown.SetGrowthRate can be overriden by game?
06:59<_dp_>not rly
07:00<_dp_>Milek7, what are you trying to do btw? raising some interesting questions lately)
07:01<Milek7>i'm writing another city growth controlling script
07:01<_dp_>aren't there enough already?)
07:01<Milek7>no :)
07:04<_dp_>I consedered continuing The_Dude's script or making my own when starting CityMania, but then looked at how GS works and gave up on doing anything with it xD
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>so, who stole my replacement battery?
07:05<_dp_>little green battery eater?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>ah there it is
07:10<@Alberth>no battery eater attached?
07:23<_johannes>does anyone know whether any of the pathfinders consider traffic?
07:23<_johannes>e.g. if there are two routes from A to B that are equally good, does the train take the route where less other trains might block it?
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>none of the pathfinders will check for presence of a vehicle
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>but the train pathfinder will consider red signals and path reservations
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>for the first 10(-ish) signals along the path
07:24<frosch123>and the road path finder will account for vehicles currently loading in drive-through stops
07:25<_johannes>hmm I wondered if one could get the graph of via-stations by just running the pathfinder around the current map, but if there are currently red signals, that would not work?
07:26<_johannes>maybe I'll have to order *all* trains into depot and then run the pathfinder? :)
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>you might need to check how to flip the mode to "don't check signals anymore"
07:26<_johannes>ah...
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08:15<Wolf01>o/
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08:28<@Alberth>o/
08:29<V453000>yo humiez
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09:22<andythenorth>o/
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09:30<George>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7991
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09:36<@Alberth>#openttd.devzone is a better channel for that George
09:37<@Alberth>admins of devzone should be there :)
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10:24<andythenorth>o/
10:25<@Alberth>o/
10:26*andythenorth has been busy
10:27<@Alberth>lots of pixels and code :)
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10:35<andythenorth>nothing so fun
10:35<andythenorth>did an audit of how well hardened my OS is
10:35<@Alberth>:(
10:35<@Alberth>and it's not?
10:36<andythenorth>it was adequate
10:37<andythenorth>I deleted a lot of unused apps and their support files
10:37<andythenorth>and removed the Flash plugin and Unity plugins completely, instead of disabling them
10:37<@Alberth>that saves space at least :)
10:39<andythenorth>I didn’t have sshd running, nor any sharing services
10:40<andythenorth>none of the known OS X malware present
10:40<andythenorth>and anything that’s really evil, I’d never be able to detect
10:40<andythenorth>so eh
10:41<@Alberth>everything looks fine
10:42<andythenorth>the thing that I want a tinfoil hat for is keystroke loggers
10:42<andythenorth>for some reason, I have an irrational fear of them
10:43<@Alberth>put some tape over your camera :)
10:43<@Alberth>how often do you type passwords?
10:43<andythenorth>I am literally doing that
10:44<@Alberth>it's quite sensible, imho
10:44<@Alberth>if you use ssh, there are very few passwords that you need
10:45<@Alberth>I don't think keystroke loggers are much used; it's too much work finding out which keystrokes are a password
10:45<andythenorth>I type admin passwords on my system all day long, everything interesting requires authenticating
10:45<@Alberth>unless they specifically target you, in which case, you have a bigger problem already
10:46<andythenorth>'they'
10:46<andythenorth>:)
10:46<@Alberth>maybe emigrate to the moon or so :p
10:47<andythenorth>that would pose a problem
10:47<andythenorth>because then the SLA couldn’t be met
10:50*andythenorth must now to pixels :)
10:50<@Alberth>good idea
10:50<@Alberth>what are you fixing or adding?
10:50<frosch123>what's your reasoning for openttd being necessary on your system?
10:58<@Alberth>testing pixels?
11:20<andythenorth>it’s not necessary
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11:28<andythenorth>do any of you keep OpenTTD virtualised?
11:28<frosch123>i keep eints virtualised
11:29<andythenorth>because you don’t trust the authors?
11:29<frosch123>because it runs a webserver, sshd and other stuff, and i have port-forwarding from outside to it, so i can sometimes show people stuff :)
11:30<andythenorth>fair
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11:34*andythenorth considers virtualised OpenTTD
11:35<andythenorth>ironically, the *only* identified piece of malware on my system was a windows .exe alongside Crossover (Wine)
11:36<andythenorth>Crossover was installed only to test the windows version of OpenTTD :P
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11:51<Milek7>cargodist should be used with freight?
11:52<@Alberth>depends on how you play
11:52<Milek7>people at my server hate it
11:52<@Alberth>I use it
11:53<@Alberth>but then again, I don't do city building or pax transport
11:53<andythenorth>.me uses it
11:53<@Alberth>but I also know people that disable it
11:54<@Alberth>you don't want symmetric mode for cargo, it's not useful mostly
11:54<@Alberth>there are few exceptions, like mail and values in temperate iirc
11:54<@Alberth>I never use symmetric mode, it feels like cheating :p
11:55<frosch123>i also play without cdist
11:55<frosch123>it manages something automatically, which i want to manage myself
11:56<frosch123>cdist is kind of its own game goal
11:57<frosch123>so it conflicts with any other goal which you may have
11:57<andythenorth>do you feel like it sets goals?
11:57<andythenorth>I let go of the idea that it chooses any destination
11:57<andythenorth>now I have learned to love cdist
11:57<andythenorth>‘love’ is a strong word :)
11:57<andythenorth>maybe ‘like'
11:57<frosch123>to me a goal is usually something inhomogeneous
11:57<@Alberth>stockholm syndrome :p
11:58<frosch123>like "some high value somewhere"
11:58<frosch123>cdist distributes evenly, so it works against that
11:58<frosch123>like with firs supplies
11:58<@Alberth>only if you let it
11:58<frosch123>it works to distribute supplies evenly
11:58<frosch123>but you cannot focus delivery to some location
12:00<frosch123>Alberth: yes, cdest would be even worse :p
12:00<frosch123>if there would be cdest, there would only be a single game mode
12:00<@Alberth>indeed
12:00<frosch123>at least you can cheat cdist a bit
12:02<andythenorth>by using multiple pickup stations, I seem to get the results I want
12:02<Milek7>some images from polish forum: http://upload.mouse.one.pl/images/183Absurd_CD_maszyny_1.2.png
12:02<Milek7>http://upload.mouse.one.pl/images/652Absurd_CD_maszyny_1.1.png
12:02<andythenorth>those tankers are nice
12:02<Milek7>they have some error in settings or what?
12:04<andythenorth>bye
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12:05<frosch123>Milek7: no, cdist sets the goal, then you have to provide the necessary transport capacity
12:06<frosch123>when playing without cdist, you decide where stuff goes, which essentially means stuff is distributed according to the transport capacity which you provide
12:06<frosch123>when playing with cdist, noone cares about your capacity. it is expected that you change your capacities to match
12:07<frosch123>if you have lots of cargo waiting somewhere when playing with cdist, it just means you are not fulfulling the goal
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12:08<frosch123>if that is not your king of goal, you should disable cdist
12:08<frosch123>if it is your kind of goal, you should play better :p
12:08<@Alberth>:D
12:12<Milek7>so if there lots of cargo waiting cdist dosen't distribute it evenly?
12:13<frosch123>if people want to drive from krakow to warsaw, and all trains are full, they do not suddenly decide to drive to poznan instead
12:13<frosch123>they will just wait, and complain about the bad train service
12:13<frosch123>or leave the station and take the car
12:14<@Alberth>cdist mostly starts using other routes to the destination
12:14<@Alberth>or additional routes even
12:15<frosch123>yes, other routes, but not other destinations :)
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>cdist never distributes evenly. it has a bias towards certain distances
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>you can adjust that bias in the settings
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have your passenger network totally overloaded, you can make them take shorter distances, which will usually make it easier to transport everybody
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>but this makes cargodist very ill-suited for distribution of cargos, where you have a single or very few sources, like FIRS supplies
12:22<Milek7>if two companies ordered cargo, and train company haven't sufficent capacity, they would propably try to deliver what they can evenly, not all capacity to one company and nothing to second
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12:35<frosch123>giving how unpopular it is for companies to compete for source industires, i don't think anyone bothered to make cdist affect the station rating or pickup distribution
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist tried a few methods of affecting station rating
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure which one ended up being included
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think "reachable destinations" was dropped, but "cargo waiting at intermediate stations" was kept
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly not optimal
12:53<Wolf01>bye
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15:41<Supercheese>and now the entire country goes into a stupor for the Stupor Bowl
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>can't be worse than carneval...
16:15<TrueBrain>you could live in a country where Trump is running for president
16:16<TrueBrain>*trolololol*
16:16<@Alberth>:D
16:17<TrueBrain>SpComb: your bot lost his name a while ago ;)
16:18<TrueBrain>Guest659 .. that seems weeks ago ;)
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16:22<Supercheese>for the entire time I've been able to vote, every presidential candidate has been terrible, so there's nothing really new
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>somehow i'm surrounded by cats all of a sudden
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17:48<SpComb>TrueBrain: in disguise
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17:58<Flygon>Suppercheese: Clearly the solution for you
17:58<Flygon>Is to be able to vote for multiple people at once
17:58<Flygon>In order from Most Preferable to Least Preferable
18:00<Flygon>But USA is scared of such representative democratic values ?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: how does that help if all candidates suck equally?
18:02<Supercheese>yeah my vote would be "these are all morons"
18:02<Flygon>You go in preference from Least Sucky to Most Sucky
18:02<Supercheese>"preference"
18:02<Flygon>I do advocate a "None of the Above" tickbox tho
18:03<Supercheese>I'd imagine every election would end with that result though...
18:03<Supercheese>"Wellp, nobody won... again"
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>there was this story about a guy (in canada?) who changed his name to "Above Znonofthe" so at the bottom of the ballot it said "Znonofthe, Above"
18:03<Flygon>Well, the idea is
18:03<Flygon>Is that if enough recall elections are called
18:03<Flygon>Some electable candidates are bound to be forced up
18:04<Flygon>If a large majority of seats initially kept voting no confidence
18:04<Flygon>It is a huge initial shock
18:04<Flygon>But after the parties/independants get themselves sorted, and become ELECTABLE
18:04<Supercheese>sounds good in theory
18:04<Supercheese>I have my doubts as to its practicality
18:04<Flygon>The idea is that future elections will be more stable due to the politicans being forced to actually listen to their people
18:04<Flygon>Oh, certainly
18:04<Flygon>I share those doubts
18:05<Supercheese>but hey, pretty much anything would be better than the morons currently in
18:05<Flygon>But it'd be nice if it could be trialled
18:05<Supercheese>on every ticket, you get a list of Moron #1, Moron #2...
18:05<Flygon>But the Politicians would roar hard against it. They want a free lifetime job >_>
18:06<Flygon>ON my ticket, I get Labor, Liberals, Greens, Christian Party, Family First, Sex Party (yes, THAT IS A REAL PARTY), Independants, Free Beer for College Students, ect...
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i don't quite understand how this is supposed to work...
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>like "keep this seat empty if everybody votes 'no'?"
18:07<Flygon>It forces a recall election
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>and what does that do?
18:07<Flygon>You hit the same scenario under standard electoral systems sometimes if the numbers are simply far too close to call
18:08<Flygon>Well, everyone's dragged back to the polling booths (with candidates either dropping out, or new ones contesting the seat), to try and resolve the stalled election
18:08<Flygon>Everyone in the seat
18:08<Flygon>Not the nation
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>and how does that solve any problems?
18:09<Flygon>Allows the public to express what wankers pollies can be :B
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's just like every other country that has runoff elections
18:09<Flygon>Oh, wait
18:10<Flygon>Are you discussing preferential voting?
18:10<Flygon>Or the "All these Politicians are Wankers" checkbox?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>that last one
18:10<Flygon>Right
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>although, the entire point of preferential voting is to avoid runoff elections. why it's now a benefit to reintroduce them is beyond me...
18:11<Flygon>Well, if someone is ticking the box because they think none of the politicians are even worth consideration, even with a preferential system. And in the incredible unlikelyhood that over 50% of voters would agree with that viewpoint. Clearly all the candidates presented are either incredibly incompetent, or the public incredibly unsatisfied with the operation of the Government as a whole up to that point.
18:12<Flygon>Both of which can reveal even deeper problems endemic in the Government's operation up to that point
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, in this country there is a new wave of outrage every time that the voter turnout is on a record low, but still nothing ever changes
18:13<Flygon>Incidentally, I'm astounded the UK runs on a "First Past the Post system". Esp. given how many different parties their parliament has.
18:13<Flygon>Eddi: No mandatory voting?
18:13<Flygon>In Australia, you're legally required to vote. Otherwise you're fined.
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>mandatory voting is evil(tm)
18:14<Flygon>Obviously, this doesn't stop people from drawing penises onto their ballot then submitting those.
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's what communists did in east germany, it must be bad.
18:14<Flygon>But the idea is once they're in, they'll feel like voting anyway
18:14<Flygon>I... can see how you guys feel a bit burned from history x:
18:14<Flygon>iirc, here, it was just introduced because... I forgot why. It was around 1917 when it was legislated
18:14<Flygon>Voter turnout must've been abysmal or something
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>in federal elections it's usually around 70%, in some state elections it drops to 50%
18:16<Flygon>Yeah, here, it's over 90% for both
18:16<Flygon>I do note, the fine here is between $50 and $80
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18:16<Flygon>So... some people are so lazy they just pay the fine, because the fine is so absurdly low
18:17<Flygon>They set the values in the 60s or 70s
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>in EU elections it's not great either
18:17<Flygon>With inflation, the fines should be around $500-800
18:18<Flygon>I'm just surprised how undemocratic a lot of European electoral systems can be
18:19<Flygon>I expected them all to be very similar to Australia
18:19<Flygon>ie. mandatory voting, preferences
18:19<Flygon>But a large chunk aren't
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>nobody has preferential voting...
18:19<Flygon>How do you run a democracy without it?...
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>half of the countries has proportional voting, and the other half has runoff elections
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
18:20<Flygon>Ahh, yes
18:20<Flygon>Proportional Voting...
18:20<Flygon>That... sorta kinda exists here for certain elections
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>and no two voting systems are ever the same
18:21<Flygon>They're a massive controversy due to how manipulable they have become
18:21<Flygon>It's really not easy to get into the nitty gritty without explaining how the electoral system works here in-depth x:
18:22<Flygon>But... yeah
18:22<Flygon><Eddi|zuHause> so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
18:22<Flygon>That's not really very democratic...
18:22<Flygon>It's a statistics failure :(
18:22<Flygon>Given the strong likelyhood that, in such a scenario, somone coming in 3rd or 4th place, with preferences, could actually come out #1
18:22<Flygon>As has occoured localy
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>but as most countries are used to two-party systems, that's rarely an issue
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, you'll never know...
18:23<Flygon>Just because you're used to it, doesn't mean it's good for you :(
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>but look at the elections in france... there's a regional spike in a 3rd (extreme right wing) party, and in the runoff election everybody is like "oh fuck, we need to keep these guys out"
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>which result in some crazy left-right broad coalitions for voting for the other candidate
18:28<Flygon>It's pretty difficult for the extreme Right to get a foothold here
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's much easier in proportional systems
18:30<Flygon>Strangely, the effect I HAVE noticed
18:30<Flygon>Is that the Left can get an easier foothold
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably going to swap if you have a refugee crisis :p
18:32<Flygon>Uuuuhm...
18:32<Flygon>Oh man...
18:32<Flygon>Australian Politics and Refugees
18:32<Flygon>I really REALLY don't want to get into that
18:32<Flygon>Mainly because the UN's declared that we've been violating human rights with our detention centres
18:32<Flygon>The child rape stuff doesn't help
18:33<Flygon>And yet we have European parties claiming this's the greatest thing since sliced bread
18:33*Flygon puts his head in his hands
18:33<Flygon>I'm fucking ashamed.
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>but you haven't had a million refugees in a year
18:33<Flygon>That's the thing
18:34<Flygon>Given our geography, and the demographics coming through to here
18:34<Flygon>We can more than reliably handle any incoming flow
18:34<Flygon>Particulary since that, bar going by boat (which tends to deter all but the most incredibly desperate), the only way to come in is by Airplane.
18:35<Flygon>But the major parties here have latched onto the issue in an attempt to grab votes from Sydneysiders
18:35<Flygon>And I do mean Sydneysiders specifically
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>there'll always be the "but WE were here FIRST" and the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camps
18:35<Flygon>Technically the Aboriginals were here first.
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>sure. but they don't count.
18:35<Flygon>But I can see why the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camp would ignore that fact xP
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>but look at the US, with all the white people being afraid of mexican immigrants
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same exact two arguments
18:37<Flygon>Ehh
18:37<Flygon>Humans are scared of what's foriegn =/
18:37*Flygon rubs forehead
18:37<Flygon>The Sydneysiders would freak out if they went on my trainline
18:38<Flygon>I'm on the only portion of it that ISN'T predominantly Black, Asian, Middle-Eastern, or all of the above xP
18:48-!-Derya [~ircap@189.90.42.149.jupiter.com.br] has joined #openttd
18:48<Derya>hi
18:48<Flygon>Yooo!
18:48<Derya>yep
18:48<Derya>how r u Flygon
18:49<Flygon>Ehh
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18:49<Flygon>I'm not privy on the current operations of Russia
18:49<Flygon>Well, fug
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