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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-12

---Logopened Fri Feb 12 00:00:09 2016
---Daychanged Fri Feb 12 2016
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06:57<argoneus>anyone here plays chess?
07:03<Wolf01>I know how to play
07:03<argoneus>want to play a game?
07:03<argoneus>i just started
07:04<argoneus>I need to play against people who won't facefuck me
07:09<Wolf01>also I don't have any chess game installed
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07:10<argoneus>Wolf01: I just give you a link
07:11<argoneus>to an online chess place
07:11<argoneus>where people play
07:11<argoneus>you don't even need to register
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the last chess program i had was the example program that came with Borland Pascal 7
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10:56<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, it seem that if you stay far away from enemy ships you do more damage, at least I managed to do 3k-5k instead of 400-900 when in close range
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>there is certainly a "too close" thing happening
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>also, cannon alignment and stuff
10:57<Wolf01>no, the lead balls bounces on the ship and don't give enough damage
10:57<Wolf01>from far away the balls don't bounce
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11:14<_johannes>Why does the Vehicle class have a next and a next_shared pointer?
11:14<_johannes>(and functions to access those)
11:15<_johannes>From the code, it says that shared vehicles seem to share the same train?
11:16<_johannes>I could use Next(), NextShared() and GetNextVehicle() ...
11:16<_johannes>so how to iterate over all vehicles of a train?
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11:32<Wolf01>I think that shared stuff is meant for the orders/grouping, do you want to iterate over the wagons of a train?
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11:54<_johannes>Wolf01: yes
11:55<_johannes>Alberth: can you please see ?
11:55<_johannes>hope I marked it right
11:57<@Alberth>hmm, and you think I know that? :p
11:57<@Alberth>did you check the depot display code?
11:57<@Alberth>that has to 'print' all wagons onto the screen
11:58<@Alberth>but my guess is Next()
11:59<_johannes>hmm no I did not check that depot code, good idea
11:59<@Alberth>next_shared is to have a list of trains that share an order
12:00<@Alberth>so the order can just point to the first train
12:01<_johannes>oh, wait, so Vehicle::next_shared can point to the first vehicle of the next train?
12:02<@Alberth>next train in the shared orders, I would hop
12:03<@Alberth>it should skip trains that have a different order :)
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12:04<@Alberth>hmm, so there must be a way to find the last wagon too
12:05<@Alberth>no idea about that, depot code should be able to tell you
12:06<@Alberth>autoreplace could also work, but that code is more difficult
12:06<@Alberth>due to newgrf extensions :p
12:07<_johannes>hmmm yes the depot could looks useful...
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12:11<_johannes>the depot code uses FOR_ALL_VEHICLES
12:11<_johannes>I feel dumb now :P
12:12<@Alberth>nah, it takes time to understand how to approach foreign code :)
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12:15<Wolf01>lol, I managed to blow up a ship I had to capture...
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12:15<@Alberth>oops :)
12:15<Wolf01>I do too much damage XD
12:16<Wolf01>8k with one volley
12:17<Wolf01>\o/ I can purchase a frigate now
12:17<Wolf01>doubling the damage I do
12:17<@Alberth>lol :)
12:18<@Alberth>now find some more sturdy enemies :p
12:18<_johannes>hmmm FOR_ALL_VEHICLES does not take a reference to the first vehicle of the train... does it iterate over all vehicles of the game? :-/
12:18<@Alberth>yes, all vehicles :)
12:19<@Alberth>isn't there a all_trains macro?
12:20<@Alberth>339:#define FOR_ALL_TRAINS(var) FOR_ALL_VEHICLES_OF_TYPE(Train, var)
12:20<_johannes>well, that's still not good to iterate over all vehicles for each train
12:20<_johannes>complexity n^2 :P
12:21<_johannes>ok, the Vehicle::Next() worked!
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12:57*andythenorth must to chores
12:57<andythenorth>also 2 more industries left to draw
12:58<@Alberth>oh, new economy of course, I thought you'd run out of IDs
12:58<andythenorth>we have loads of IDs left now :)
12:59<andythenorth>I’m at 76 out of 128
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12:59<andythenorth>I would be surprised if I can push it above 100
12:59<@Alberth>oooh, 50 induestries to go :p
13:00<andythenorth>the number of cargos provides an effective brake on number of industries
13:01<andythenorth>at some point, industries start to repeat cargos, or are nonsense :)
13:01<@Alberth>yeah, you don't want too many industries
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13:02<andythenorth>I think 40 is about right for a large economy
13:02<andythenorth>and around 20 for a basic economy
13:03<@Alberth>but I guess design is different of both
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13:22<Quatroking>if I replace trucks, will they automatically be refitted to the cargo they were holding?
13:23<Quatroking>apparently so
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13:58<_johannes>a Vehicle has a VehicleCargoList...
13:59<_johannes>I give up trying to understand it...
14:00<@Alberth>you can have several cargoes loaded in a single vehicle, would be my guess
14:00<@Alberth>eg mail + passengers in a single wagon
14:00<@Alberth>but not sure about this
14:01<@Alberth>it can also be a refit list, no idea at all how that works
14:02<@Alberth>ie when you select a wagon in the refit window, you get a list of refits you can use
14:02<@Alberth>that has to be stored somewhere too :)
14:03<@Alberth>or in the order "refit wagon to ..."
14:04<@Alberth>yep, mega-complicated, loads of stuff stacked on top of each other :)
14:04<_johannes>hmm it has stuff like DaysInTransit()
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14:08<_johannes>All these helpful comments :P
14:08<_johannes>VehicleCargoList: CargoList that is used for vehicles.
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14:09<@Alberth>DaysInTransit is for computing payments
14:09<@Alberth>shorter transit times means more money
14:09<_johannes>what does the term "cargo packets" mean?
14:10<_johannes>why "packets"?
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14:10<_johannes>is this refit-specific?
14:12<_johannes>or is it like 1 unit of cargo? e.g. if a coal waggon carries "30 coal", it carries 30 packets?
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14:15<_johannes>ahh I think that's it... a cargo packet is one unit, and it can be stored on a train or in a station
14:16<@Alberth>units of cargo are packed together as much as possible to reduce computations
14:17<_johannes>you mean like "5 units are one packet" ?
14:17<frosch123>no, all cargo of the same type, origin in the same place are one packet
14:18<_johannes>ahh ok
14:18<frosch123>all coal from station brunswig central in second wagon of train 123
14:19<_johannes>ok clear...
14:19<@Alberth>loaded at the same time too ?
14:20<frosch123>it has an average age
14:20<@Alberth>ah, makes sense
14:20<_johannes>so the Vehicle::VehicleCargoList is the list of all packets currently stored in this Vehicle?
14:20<frosch123>when cargo packets from same origin are merged, the average age is weighted according to amounts
14:20<frosch123>_johannes: yes
14:33<_johannes>frosch123: can you explain why vehicle has a next and a next_shared pointer?
14:33<_johannes>next seems to be the next Vehicle in the train...
14:34<frosch123>next is the next vehicle part in the same consist
14:34<frosch123>in the easiest case the next wagon
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14:34<frosch123>so, "next" links between vehicles in the same chain
14:34<_johannes>a more difficult case?
14:35<frosch123>"next_shared" otoh links between consists, which share orders
14:35<frosch123>more difficult case would be articulated vehicles, which appear like one "wagon" to the user, but actualy consist of multiple parts
14:36<frosch123>and also aircraft shadow and helicopter rotor are separate vehicles within the same consist
14:36<frosch123>for example a single vehicle part only carries a single cargo type
14:37<frosch123>the mail compartment of aircraft is actually in the shadow vehicle part
14:38<_johannes>ok, now if we have one order with two trains, then Vehicle::next_shared of the train 1, veh. 1 points to train 2, veh. 1?
14:38<frosch123>anyway, you never use those pointers directly
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: each train is a chain, that is traversed via next. and each of these vehicle chains is connected at their head the next_shared. so shared vehicles are a chain of chains
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: yes. if you are at train N, vehicle 1, then next_shared will traverse to train N+1, vehicle 1. next will traverse to train N vehicle 2
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>from train N vehicle M you can go next to train N vehicle M+1. but next_shared will never be valid for M>1
14:41<frosch123>_johannes: take a look at ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders::ScriptVehicleList_SharedOrders
14:41<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: ah ok, makes sense...
14:41<frosch123>it iterates over consists which share orders
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: for things like this it's usually easier if you draw it
14:43<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: yeah it would be good if such a drawing would be in the docs :D
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: or graphviz it :p
14:45<frosch123>docs never explain stuff that is used in dozen of similar incarnations throughout the code
14:45<frosch123>you just don't explain the usage of std::vector whenever using it
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15:00<andythenorth>well well well
15:01<frosch123>look, it's the guy from greenland
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15:04<andythenorth>how long until April 1st?
15:04<frosch123>4 weeks for me
15:05<andythenorth>you have a special calendar? o_O
15:07<frosch123>min_active_clients will stop the time on my computer
15:07<Milek7>!wolfram days until april 1st
15:07<Milek7>whops, wrong channel
15:08<mikegrb>> 49 days
15:08<mikegrb>from wolram alpha in my menu bar
15:08<andythenorth>I need at least 5 of those for drawing 2 industries :|
15:09<andythenorth>not sure where I’ll get them :)
15:10<frosch123>did you look on ebay?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you talk like there's going to be an openttd release that you have to catch up with
15:13<andythenorth>that is true
15:13<andythenorth>maybe there won’t be ?
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16:07<andythenorth> /me -> bed
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18:11<swiss>is sombody from switzerland?
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18:13<debdog>yes, swiss is
18:15<Supercheese>No, but Schweitzer is the name of the local ski resort :P
18:17<Supercheese>the anglicization seems to have added the explicit t in front of the z
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 13 00:00:58 2016