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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-13

---Logopened Sat Feb 13 00:00:58 2016
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02:35<andythenorth>is cats
02:35<Eddi|zuHause>miau
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02:44<andythenorth>vehicle factory is regrettable
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02:58<andythenorth>irl, vehicle factories are 1) very big 2) very bland
02:59<Eddi|zuHause>so?
03:00<andythenorth>big is hard to place
03:01<andythenorth>bland is…bland :P
03:01<andythenorth>http://business.inquirer.net/files/2012/07/FMCP-Premises.jpg
03:01*andythenorth needs a better solution
03:01<andythenorth>http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/85374656-the-opel-werk-i-assembly-plant-of-german-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QYFJh7sy4UwqwbrLTX87COvUGWLVCWw3Z7Rrs9OAXt4Zx0N7sfuWQXR2x%2F8%2F%2FHljgg%3D%3D
03:02<andythenorth>I can probably cheat scale somewhat
03:03<Supercheese>Draw cutaway view! Assembly lines, robotic arms, forklifts! :P
03:06<andythenorth>V did that in YETI :)
03:07<Supercheese>Ah true
03:07<andythenorth>truck plant is more plausible https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Scaniafabrik.JPG
03:07<andythenorth>but it’s all just brick cuboids :P
03:08<andythenorth>http://www.scania.hu/_system/img/highres/409498_highres_Scania_S%C3%B6dert%C3%A4lje.jpg
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04:00<sim642>I'm looking at https://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol#The_protocol and https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/TCP but I don't see the overall format of the package described, like how's the packet type sent or what other metadata is there and how much. Can anyone help me?
04:30<_johannes>"bool reserve_paths; ///< always reserve paths regardless of signal type."
04:30<_johannes>What does it mean to reserve a path?
04:30<_johannes>Also, what is a PBS signal?
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04:36<andythenorth>path based signal
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04:45<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: reserving a path means it is then (almost) guaranteed to be kept free from other trains
04:45<_johannes>andythenorth: ah ok, then it's just a path signal?
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "PBS" and "path signal" are the same thing
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>(mostly)
04:46<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: so this can happen regardless of any type of signal, it just means that the tracks is reserved for this specific train?
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: i don't know under which condition this flag is set
04:48<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: train_cmd.cpp, "do_track_reservation = true;"
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: not enough context
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>also, why does this matter?
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>you probably don't want to reserve paths
04:51<_johannes>I'm just figuring out how it works
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04:52<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: reserving a path is a train saying "i'm coming through here, stay clear!"
04:52<_johannes>for just finding out what path is the best from station a to b, I can not use Train::Tick(), because I guess this will let the train stop if other trains are blocking
04:53<_johannes>but just calling the YAPF/NPF algorithms seems to be too less, I guess?
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is pretty much exactly what you want
04:53<_johannes>the YAPF/NPF algorithms can not do things like turning a train around, correct?
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>but the appropriate wrapper function for that almost definitely already exists
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>you don't want to turn the train around
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>you just want to know what would happen if you turned around
04:54<_johannes>exactly
04:54<_johannes>the path algorithms can do this?
04:54<_johannes>*path find
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, you have to call it twice, with opposite starting directions
04:55<_johannes>ok, so then I need to try to turn it around after every step the train made
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>no
04:55<_johannes>oh wait, a train is not allowed to regularly turn around?
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>turning around can only happen at stations
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>or in depots, or end of line
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>the pathfinder generally ignores the possibility of "end of line"
04:56<_johannes>ok, the path finders will know if a route via depot is good?
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>doing that correctly is tricky, because it would need to know the train length, and then go backwards the appropriate amount of steps
04:57<_johannes>ok, for the "end of line" thing, one could just assume that it won't happen in reality...
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>the pathfinder can handle depots, but they have a pretty large penalty
04:58<_johannes>let me play a game to find that depot thing out
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>the penalty by default is 5000 (ca. 50 tiles detour)
04:58<+michi_cc>_johannes: You probably want to check/use TryPathReserve and/or ChooseTrainTrack
05:00<_johannes>michi_cc: I'd need to understand what ChooseTrainTrack actually does
05:01<_johannes>but it seems unsuited, e.g. as it make the train go to depots if it needs service
05:01<_johannes>or, if paths can not be reversed, ChooseTrainTrack aborts
05:01<_johannes>for getting a nice graph, it should be simulated like our train is the only train on the map
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: independent from that, it might be tricky to get the full path out of the pathfinder routines. they are only meant to return the first choice to make, and discard the rest of the calculated path
05:04<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: ok, so I'd just need to iterate them?
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>that seems like a huge waste of processing power
05:04<_johannes>but doesn't openttd work the same ingame?
05:05<_johannes>*the same way
05:05<+michi_cc>_johannes: Then I don't think messing around with path reservations is what you want. YAPF will have the complete path to the target internally, so you'd want to directly hook into that.
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but by the time the next choice needs to be made, the state of the network likely changed, so you cannot reuse the result anyway
05:05<+michi_cc>And before you ask, no, there is no ready-made function for that.
05:06<_johannes>I just wanted to ask that :P
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05:41<Wolf01>o/
05:55<sim642>What's the logic for sending PACKET_CLIENT_ACK? I'm trying to make a bot stay connected but can't figure out when the ACK needs to be sent and with what data because packet sniffing the real client shows that it's only being done occasionally.
06:00<Wolf01>https://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol ?
06:02<Wolf01>also http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1141444&sid=f5b655676761413ea9af5eeb9a2ef878#p1141444
06:04<sim642>that wiki page disagrees with so many things in comparison to https://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Network/TCP
06:04<sim642>and when sniffing packets and trying to figure out what's going on I found that both wiki pages are outdated
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06:04<sim642>the comments in the source are outdated as well
06:04<sim642>I ended up having to read some of the packet creation code
06:05<Wolf01>you could fix the comments and submit a patch
06:05<sim642>I can't fix the comments if I have no clue what actually happens
06:05<sim642>because the SendAck function has some p->Send_uint8 (my_client->token);
06:05<sim642>there's no mention of a token anywhere I have seen
06:07<sim642>tbh, I don't really care about how exactly the whole frame thing and commands even work
06:08<sim642>but I need the ACK sending to keep my bot connected
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06:23<Wolf01>meh... they changed again firefox... now push notifications let you chose "always" or "not now"... and if I want "only for this session"?
06:25<sim642>Oh I just found out, some server frames send you as a token as well
06:25<sim642>I guess that's what to send back
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06:27<sim642>seems to stay connected too if I client ACK every 100 frames
06:31<sim642>still, seems somewhat ridiculous that the only reliable source for the network protocol is the packet creation code and packet sniffing
06:38<sim642>there's still parts I totally didn't figure out though
06:38<Wolf01>maybe nobody knows, and you can be the one which could bring the light
06:39<sim642>the people who designed and implemented it must know how it works
06:39<sim642>although I understand there needn't be many people since it needs to be only done once
06:40<sim642>PACKET_CLIENT_JOIN has some newGRF version uint32 being sent, I wonder where should I get one that'd allow me to connect
06:40<sim642>currently I just took the one my sniffed client used
06:42<Wolf01>I think you need to emulate the entire game to make it connect
06:46<sim642>not really, simply by always ACKing that I'm up to date with the frame is enough to stay connected
06:46<sim642>also I just ignore the map data it sends and tell the server I got it OK when it ENDs
06:47<Wolf01>the problem it's not what you can ignore, it is what the server wants you to send
06:47<Wolf01>like your list of grfs
06:49<sim642>I should be able to just send back such that it'd be ok
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06:52<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: right now, I think it's cleaner to add an "is_virtual_train" parameter to TrainController() (or a similar function) instead of copying the function and smash parts out...
06:53<_johannes>do you think this modficiation in the core would be acceptable?
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07:26<sim642>if there's only one spectator client connected the game gets unpaused too?
07:31<Milek7>sim642: why you need to connect to server with dummy client?
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07:40<sim642>Milek7, for a chat bridge
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07:40<Milek7>why not simply patch server?
07:41<sim642>what do you mean?
07:43<Milek7>patch server to do chat bridging
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07:43<Milek7>propably a lot simpler than writing own client
07:44<sim642>but a lot harder to get anyone running the server to do it
07:45<sim642>not to mention having to implement a whole IRC client in openttd server
07:45<Milek7>write to fifo somewhere
07:46<Milek7>and write some script reading from it and piping into irc client
07:46<sim642>makes no difference at this point since I already have it working
07:50<_dp_>there is admin port for chat
07:50<_dp_>and bunch of libraries that work with it
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07:52<sim642>is there a single line of documentation about it?
07:52<_dp_>there was somewhere...
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07:53<_dp_>but don't think you need docs for admin port protocol, just library
07:54<_dp_>reddit one seems decently documented https://github.com/luaduck/suds
07:55<_dp_>oh, no, it's just usage, not api... but whatever, who needs comments in python :p
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08:46<+michi_cc>sim642: <OTTD src>/docs/admin_network.txt
08:51<sim642>so that's something the server admin needs to allow?
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09:19<xcy></> I would be willing to rework the website. And in addition add support for mobile devices.
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09:55<Quatroking>is it possible to change the setting for station size on a running server?
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: i don't think that is the right approach
10:06<Milek7>Quatroking: can't be done using console?
10:06<Quatroking>no idea
10:07<Milek7>propably you must save game, stop server, change it, and load
10:08<Quatroking>Yeah I was hoping to avoid that
10:09<_dp_>usually you can change settings on running server
10:09<_dp_>requires rcon though
10:10<Quatroking>I have direct console access if that helps
10:11<_dp_>if you mean ttd console that will do too
10:11<_dp_>not linux one)
10:13<Quatroking>oh I mean linux
10:13<Quatroking>I got the server running right next to me
10:14<_dp_>well, you need ingame console, don't see any other way
10:15<Quatroking>Alright, i set up rcon
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>the console where you started the server will work
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>it behaves like the ingame console
10:17<Quatroking>I have no idea what setting to use though
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you put the server in the background)
10:18<Quatroking>Nah I got it open in a terminal
10:18<_dp_>oh, wow, it works indeed, didn't know that
10:23<Quatroking>ah, found it
10:24<Quatroking>station_spread
10:24<_dp_>there is a bunch of related settings actually
10:25<_dp_>vehicle.max_train_length, gui.station_platlength
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think gui settings apply to a server
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10:27<_dp_>yeah, sounds likely, but I'm not sure either
10:28<_dp_>I mean it definitely applies to server, but probably not to clients))
10:28<Milek7>gui settings are only revelant on client
10:28<Milek7>and independent from server
10:32<Quatroking>oh wow two of my trains' pathfinding bugged up completely
10:32<Quatroking>they're just riding in circles now
10:47<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: what would be an alternative? I could copy ~ 200 lines of code into my graph exporter
10:48<_johannes>this would lead to code duplication :-/
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: to me this smells like you have not found the right point to hook into yet.+
10:49<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: the problem is that TrainController and subfunctions do contain many lines of code that I need
10:50<_johannes>or wait, maybe not...
10:53<_johannes>hmm ok I think you're right :D
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11:24<sim642>Something weird happening with my dummy client: sometimes the MAP_DATA it gets has less bytes than it claims to and will get stuck in the whole connection part
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11:50<andythenorth>32bpp FIRS is it?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can also do 8bpp extra zoom
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11:51<andythenorth>lo Alberth
11:51<@Alberth>hi hi
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or do a "limited 32bpp" where you only use the 8bpp colours plus some antialiasing
11:52<andythenorth>I am waiting for someone to do a fork
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>that way you can keep the overall style consistent
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you "wait" for something in an open source world, it will never happen...
11:53<andythenorth>or the second option also is fine
11:56<luaduck>_dp_: regarding suds, it's extremely fresh and is pretty much a clone of soap at this point in time
12:00<@Alberth>imho, there are lots of people more interested than you in 32bpp, andy
12:04<andythenorth>almost everyone is more interested than me :)
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12:26<andythenorth>quak
12:26<andythenorth>isn’t it
12:26<frosch123>moin
12:28<_johannes>VehicleEnterTile -> should this be called if I just want to get the graph ?
12:29<_johannes>the comment says: "/* Call the landscape function and tell it that the vehicle entered the tile */"
12:30<_johannes>sounds like it's just for graphics?
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12:51<_johannes>now I've already copied 300 lines from train_cmd to the graph exporter...
12:52<_johannes>it's a lot of code duplication and I'm not even 100 percent sure if I smashed out anything important...
12:53<_johannes>TrainCheckIfLineEnds, TrainCanLeaveTile, TrainApproachingLineEnd
12:53<_johannes>I'm not sure if this was a good idea...
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13:08<+michi_cc>_johannes: I still think that you should look at YAPF only. All the stuff in train_cmd.cpp deals with "physically" moving the train forward, which is exactly what you don't want if your goal is an idealised path disregarding other trains.
13:10<+michi_cc>_johannes: YAPF on the other hand will already have a complete node graph back from the destination to the origin in memory at the end of a run, which is just waiting to be plucked. Do YAPF from order to order (with some fudging to deal with non-deterministic conditional orders) and be done with it.
13:11<_johannes>michi_cc: yes, I don't want the "physical" stuff, but there are many things like setting train's bits, handling for 90 degree curves, CheckCompatibleRail, checking if line ends, handling depots....
13:17<+michi_cc>But what for? YAPF (or more exactly the track follower) takes care of all that, except checking if a train needs service. YAPF is guaranteed to find a *working* path , which implies all the checks about compatibility and such.
13:18<+michi_cc>Using YAPF will fail for stuff like openttdcoopy self-regulating networks, but then you can't represent them as a normal graph anyway.
13:20<_johannes>michi_cc: Ok, I'll look inside and see if it can be used...
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13:27<andythenorth>bah
13:27<andythenorth>no good trainsets :(
13:28<@Alberth>that includes iron horse? :O
13:28<andythenorth>played the Brit roster so many times
13:28<andythenorth>I need one for arctic and one for tropic
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13:29<andythenorth>:)
13:30<@Alberth>british tropical? lots of old steam engines? :)
13:31<andythenorth>it nearly works tbh
13:31<andythenorth>brit in tropical is ok
13:32<@Alberth>arctic.. big power for all that wood?
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13:33<andythenorth>norway, finland, electrics and such
13:35<@Alberth>I'd expect steam and diesel rather than electric, with all the snow and frost
13:35*andythenorth should probably research it :)
13:35<andythenorth>Dan had some ideas
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13:44<andythenorth>stupid vehicle plant :)
13:44<@Alberth>it's on the nomination to get retired before I could play with it? :)
13:44<andythenorth>nah
13:44-!-Wormnest_ [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd
13:45<andythenorth>but if I make it realistic, it’s the most boring industry ever, visually
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13:45<andythenorth>unless I draw one huge building, like the stockyard
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27508 trunk/src/lang/german.txt (2016-02-13 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@Alberth>draw a car-like building? :p
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>german: 1 change by mini1025
13:45<andythenorth>ha
13:46<andythenorth>irl, it needs to be 3 of these http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#stockyard
13:46<andythenorth>and some truck/car parking
13:46<andythenorth>but I don’t like those giant one-piece sprites
13:47<@Alberth>imho you have enough box-like industries
13:48<andythenorth>too many
13:49<andythenorth>all either brick, or company colour
13:49<@Alberth>not many huge multi-level boxes though, but it just becomes massive then
13:49<andythenorth>one or two white or grey
13:49<@Alberth>hmm, no triangle roofs, have you?
13:49<andythenorth>only a couple
13:50<andythenorth>one building here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#sugar_refinery
13:50<argoneus>is there going to be a cash shop in ottd
13:50<andythenorth>reused as hardware store, and in CHIPS for station buildings
13:50<andythenorth>considering doing pointy triangle roofs
13:51<@Alberth>ah, textile mill has
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13:51<andythenorth>so it does :)
13:51*andythenorth forgets
13:52<andythenorth>there is a car plant here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?style=1&t=20737&start=60
13:53<andythenorth>also lifeblood’s http://users.tt-forums.net/daveworley/artistcomp/june.php
13:53<@Alberth>I like the L-shape (or U-shape)
13:54*andythenorth should use Oz’s resort to replace FIRS hotel :D
13:54<@Alberth>looks very boxy
13:54<@Alberth>I have seen such a resort in ECS?
13:55<andythenorth>likely
13:55*andythenorth is running out of industry shapes :)
13:57<@Alberth>shapes with different number of levels at different parts of the factory?
13:59<andythenorth>that worked for tyre plant
13:59*andythenorth experimenting
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14:26<blackzone>Someone to play open ttd Multi-player?
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14:34<blackzone>who wants to play online?
14:37<Supercheese>Reddit does: https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/server1
14:37<Supercheese>(or server2, or server3)
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15:04<andythenorth>Alberth: or so? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7634/vehicle_factory_1.png
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15:05<andythenorth>I think I would add the varying roof heights idea
15:05<@Alberth>add some open space at the parking lot?
15:05<@Alberth>get rid of the weird blue line between the two buildings at the right?
15:06<@Alberth>it looks like they are connect, make the roof gun through as well :)
15:06<andythenorth>agreed
15:06<andythenorth>it’s somewhat inspired by http://www.tueip.dircon.co.uk/OpelFactory.jpg
15:06<@Alberth>some different colours of cars could be nice too
15:07<andythenorth>multi-colored cars? :o
15:07<andythenorth>shameful idea :)
15:07<@Alberth>rotate the cars 90 degrees? 1 tile of cars between buildings looks weird now, imho
15:07<@Alberth>just asif they are stuck between the buildings :)
15:08<andythenorth>I need another 3 or 4 tiles
15:08<@Alberth>if you're Henry ford, yes, but then the cars would all be black :p
15:08*andythenorth did consider black cars :)
15:08<@Alberth>when was mr Ford?
15:10<andythenorth>1920s or so
15:10<@Alberth>1908 to 1920
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15:19<andythenorth>Alberth: (it’s a bit uniform and silly) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7635/vehicle_factory_2.png
15:19<andythenorth>fixed the roof
15:19<andythenorth>hmm
15:19<@Alberth>previous layout was nicer imho
15:19<andythenorth>there is a problem with the spacing on the roof triangles also
15:21<@Alberth>at the tile border, you mean?
15:22<@Alberth>there is more wrong, it seems
15:25<andythenorth>it was the shading
15:25<andythenorth>perception problem
15:25*andythenorth fixed it
15:25<andythenorth>now I need more buildings
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16:16<drac_boy>hi
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16:21<V453000>tbh andythenorth, that is the ugliest industry I have yet seen from you
16:21<V453000>1. the two building types do not fit together at all imo, one looks like a mud hut, the other ones more like an administrative building stuff
16:22<V453000>2. no empty space anywhere, just huge mess
16:22*drac_boy wonders if this is firs?
16:22<V453000>3. ultra regular grid-like layout = 2x1 white, 2x2 brown, 3x1 cars, repeat layout x2
16:23<V453000>the building sprites alone are nice, but the combination looks almost as a broken grf to me
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>those are supposed to be cars?
16:26<andythenorth>V453000: agreed
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think you need to redraw thode from scratch
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>*those
16:27<V453000>yeah the cars are another story, those even have bad sprites "P
16:27<V453000>:P
16:28<andythenorth>those are the same trucks used in about 30% of FIRS, and every CHIPS station
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>also,you miss a white line on the tile borders
16:28<andythenorth>it’s a HEQS sprite
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they don't work in large quanities like this
16:30<Quatroking>So I have two X2001 monorail trains, of which one goes slower than the other
16:30<Quatroking>and I can't figure out why
16:31<Quatroking>http://i.imgur.com/F7WEpA5.png
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>loaded? curves? tunnels?
16:31<andythenorth>V453000: you don’t think I should make all FIRS industries look this?
16:31<@Rubidium>wagon speed limits?
16:31<andythenorth>I was just looking at original TTD sprites, some are just like this, very regular and repetitive
16:32<drac_boy>quatroking, wagon can't run as fast? :)
16:32<Quatroking>oooohhhh
16:32<drac_boy>heh go figure ^
16:32<Quatroking>I totally forgot about that
16:32<Quatroking>thanks
16:32<@Rubidium>cargo weight multiplier
16:32<drac_boy>tbh why using tropical rail wagons with non-rail locomotive? just wondering
16:32<Quatroking>I liked the look of em
16:32<Quatroking>:D
16:33<Quatroking>mass wagon replacement isn't a thing, is it?
16:33<andythenorth>yes it is
16:33<Quatroking>is it in the same menu as regular replacement?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:35<Quatroking>ah, found it
16:35<V453000>yeah andythenorth I think it is just the fact that there is so many. As one they work, but not in arrays
16:35<V453000>perhaps use various trucks? Profit
16:35<andythenorth>dunno
16:35<drac_boy>quatroking just one little tip tho, don't use it too much with eg ukrs/canset/etc at certain times because theres still no definitive way to "remove" such wagon
16:35<andythenorth>the whole vehicle factory thing bores me
16:36<V453000>I think vehicle factory should be quite modern looking
16:36<drac_boy>other than to eg group all mineral trains in one list category and autoreplace per group (so brakevan>wagon)
16:36<andythenorth>I could just leave it as http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#vehicle_factory
16:36<V453000>like aluminium plant or something
16:36<drac_boy>sorry if my wording isn't good but hope you know what I mean
16:36<Quatroking>drac_boy, this is my current newgrf list: http://i.imgur.com/IeFLs9x.png
16:36<V453000>haha
16:36<V453000>yes that one at least looks nice andythenorth "P
16:36<V453000>:P
16:36<Quatroking>Don't really have too much train newgrf's as far as I'm aware of
16:37<V453000>andythenorth: how about making the big depots have only 1 floor (cut bottom), and wider?
16:37<V453000>with more doors?
16:37<andythenorth>maybe
16:37<andythenorth>I dunno
16:37<V453000>I think it would look very 1900ish
16:38<andythenorth>there are 2 problems
16:38<V453000>also, this demonstrates very nicely how uniform browny building industry looks nice when consistent
16:38<andythenorth>1) industry will look very bland if it is uniform colours and shapes
16:38<V453000>not necessarily
16:38<andythenorth>2) industry will look a mess if it is different colours and shapes
16:39<V453000>colours doesnt mean shape isnt interesting
16:39<andythenorth>vehicle plants are the most uninteresting buildings ever
16:40<V453000>well the ENSP/FMSP factory you just linked looks great
16:40<V453000>just a few adjustments and it will be very much like a vehicle plant
16:41<andythenorth>too similar to this http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#machine_shop
16:41<andythenorth>although that Machine Shop is totally stupid
16:41<andythenorth>in gameplay
16:41<andythenorth>but I can’t mess with Full FIRS, it’s too complicated
16:41<V453000>isnt the vehicle factory one of machine shop layouts?
16:41<drac_boy>btw quatroking whats a quatro?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need to worry about industries looking similar if they don't appear in the same economy
16:42<V453000>yeah also that
16:42<Quatroking>hell if I know, ask 10-year-old-me
16:42<V453000>of course, variety helps, but you dont have to have it everywhere
16:42<drac_boy>heh?? :)
16:43<Quatroking>I used this nick when I was 10 to sign up on lego.com because it sounded cool
16:43<Quatroking>Been using it ever since
16:45<Quatroking>I do like Pizza Quattro though
16:45<drac_boy>hmm you recall around which year that would be re lego.com ?
16:45<Quatroking>2003/2004
16:45<Quatroking>They still had the Galidor Quest and Bionicle game up
16:45<Quatroking>Bricklot too
16:46<drac_boy>ah, I used to be on lego till they started removing a lot of the good classic games :-s
16:46<drac_boy>the pirate themed gold find game was a funny one (done in plain html too)
16:48<Quatroking>backlot*
16:48<andythenorth>V453000: so what are you saying, leave the vehicle factory as is?
16:48<V453000>ok
16:48<V453000>I would try to make wider, 1-floor variation but k
16:48<Quatroking>Archive.org actually still has it: http://web.archive.org/web/20100629035233/http://www.lego.com/eng/play/games/backlot/LegoMovieMakers.asp?LaunchStartupScreen=1
16:49<Quatroking>good old shockwave player
16:49<Quatroking>probably the first 3d game I played
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16:51<drac_boy>quatroking try this then :) https://web.archive.org/web/19970615085709/http://www.lego.com/cgi-bin/pirat/pirates.cgi
16:51<drac_boy>not sure if it still 100% works .. never tried it much for a very long time
16:51<Quatroking>Oh I remember that one
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16:52<Quatroking>there's also this puzzle platformer
16:52<Quatroking>Junkbot
16:53<andythenorth>V453000: meh :)
16:53<andythenorth>partly I am just bored of boxes after drawing this and Copper Refinery http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7636/chemical_plant_7.png
16:54<V453000>that looks nice
16:54<andythenorth>yeah
16:54<andythenorth>also loads of wtf pipes everywher
16:54<V453000>yes
16:55<V453000>tbh I dont think the ball-like tanks fit to it, something more cyllindrical would be better me thinks
16:55<andythenorth>other thing I have to draw is Pyrite Smelter, which is basically chemical works + metal furnace combined
16:55<andythenorth>loads of potential
16:55<V453000>:D
16:55<andythenorth>pipes, conveyors, molten metal, smoke of two colours
16:55<andythenorth>:P
16:55<drac_boy>quatroking also similar spelling but did you know what a Quadro was? :)
16:56<drac_boy>they still exist in fact http://www.quadroworld.com
16:56<andythenorth>did my best with tyre plant, but meh to boxes
16:56<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7631/tyre_plant_9.png
16:56<Quatroking>Only quadro I know are those ugly scooters and nvidia's workstation cards
16:56<andythenorth>vehicle plant could at least have input cargos shown I guess
16:56<andythenorth>tyres, crates, metal, etc
16:56<andythenorth>it has a lot of potential inputs
16:57<V453000>the varying roof details would be nicer but this is fine
16:57<drac_boy>quatroking heh funny thing re that .. I actually deal with pny cards once in a while :) (lowend models usually mind you)
16:58<Quatroking>hey is it possible to upgrade bridges to newer types?
16:58<andythenorth>I will go back to tyre plant and do better roofs
16:59<Quatroking>right now I'd removing and building new ones over and over
16:59<Quatroking>oh hell i could've just clicked on the bridge
16:59<andythenorth>it took me 8 years to learn that :P
17:00<V453000>=D
17:00<V453000>gnight
17:00<andythenorth>bye V
17:01<drac_boy>quatroking heh it didn't take me long to figure that out in the first few games I played with ttdxp (rather than plain ttdx)
17:01<drac_boy>but to our own ways ofc
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17:03<drac_boy>you mind pms quatroking? just wondering
17:03<Quatroking>I prefer not to
17:03<Quatroking>I didn't discover vehicle replacing up until a year ago btw
17:04<drac_boy>what kind of signals do you usually go with?
17:05<Quatroking>path
17:13<drac_boy>for me: restricted, except for still sometimes using presignal instead on more basic (aka a catchall) junctions
17:18<drac_boy>oh and just in case you're not sure what it is, feel free to look at this if you want to http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/restrictions.php?lang=en
17:20<andythenorth>bye
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17:35<drac_boy>quatroking and which of which country you from? canada here
17:35<Quatroking>The Netherlands
17:37<drac_boy>ahhhh.. NS .. I actually like some of their trains :)
17:37<Quatroking>Well yeah, they're made by Bombardier
17:38<drac_boy>especially Mat'64
17:38<drac_boy>a few of them still running last time I think I checked
17:39<Quatroking>I'm wrong there, not all of them are made by Bombardier
17:39<Quatroking>the ICM is by Talbot
17:39<Quatroking>the ICM is nice but getting old https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Intercity_Materieel
17:39<Quatroking>also they got rid of the gangways :(
17:40<drac_boy>quatroking btw the ICM sorta had a "cousin" here too..one sec...
17:41<drac_boy>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/3/2/3032.1054339020.jpg have fun with that (even yellow+blue palette too)
17:41<drac_boy>and btw the gangway idea on that one was only used just once in trial test but in public service they never bothered MUing at all
17:42<Quatroking>So I just built a basic highway and nearly doubled my yearly road vehicle from $1,600,000 to $2,800,000
17:42<drac_boy>(it was easier (and fuel-cheaper) to just add more intermediate cars after all hence why the last trainsets grew to like 11 or 12 length)
17:43<Quatroking>should've played around with this a lot earlier
17:43<Quatroking>road vehicle income*
17:43<drac_boy>oh and quatroking its not you .. the thick black thing sticking out of the raised roof is for the hot exhausts coming from the turbine gensets located below :)
17:43<Quatroking>That train looks pretty neat
17:44<drac_boy>quatroking yeah it was a pretty much reliable one later on too .. sadly politics killed it off (VIA was basically a gov-"owned" company)
17:45<drac_boy>99.8+/-% reliability even with snow issues at times and no I'm not making that up
17:46<drac_boy>the funny thing is that the supposed replacement which was a diesel-electric locomotive called LRC (short for Light Rapid Comfort) had many glitches and later was always running without any tilting capacity too
17:46<Quatroking>They recently upgraded some of the NS DD-AR trains
17:46<Quatroking>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/NS_DDZ_7538_Amsterdam_CS.JPG/1280px-NS_DDZ_7538_Amsterdam_CS.JPG
17:46<Quatroking>They look pretty slick
17:47<drac_boy>small footnote: the turbotrain holds rail speed record in canada abit done with a special shortened trainset that had lot of turbine powers aboard if that says anything
17:49<drac_boy>oh and quatroking I only found out about this in a rail book (theres no copy of the photo online sorry) but .. the turbotrain (in canada) actually got involved in quite an accident that a dome-seating photographer was lucky to be in the right place to take a photo ....
17:50<drac_boy>the train smashed through a meat trailer throwing the truck around but the whole thing stayed on the rails .. and after clearing the wrecked gangway doors the train (things were different back then) simply continued at a limited 60kph to the next station
17:56<drac_boy>mind you I'm probably a bit biased but I've always hated any kind of cabover or similar flat-front designs anyhow
18:01<Quatroking>heh
18:01<drac_boy>short sections such as on the Scania T series trucks I'm ok with tho :)
18:02<Quatroking>I ride the DD-AR nearly daily, usually on the old models
18:03<Quatroking>though sometimes I use the SLT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Sprinter_Lighttrain
18:03<Quatroking>That's the bombardier one
18:03<Quatroking>it's a glorified subway
18:03<Quatroking>fun fact: our subway trains are also built by bombardier :')
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18:05<Quatroking>Every once in a while I also use the Brussels train which is an NMBS HLE 11 + an
18:05<Quatroking>NS ICRm
18:07<drac_boy>heh, anyway have to go make some supper so maybe talk to you another time ok?
18:07<Quatroking>Yeah sure
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i can haz galleon?
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose a galleon isn't the right ship for cleansing another pirate area, so i'm gonna trade and grow towns for a bit and maybe i can get a frigate next
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19:44<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, I'm using the frigate, but I have troubles with 5 enemy ships in level 30 areas...
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not quite that far yet
19:45<Wolf01>I have 2 more ships to purchase, but I first need to level up a city
19:47<Wolf01>growing a town to level 9 requires at least 25 quests/trades with that city
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's 5 trips with a galleon :p
19:48<Wolf01>if you have all the stuff every time, yes
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19:50<Wolf01>today I cleaned 3 pirate areas and got a "syndicate" city, the syndicate faction is the best one because it gives you all the perks of the other ones, but it's tricky to get their flag :/
19:53<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/app/326410/discussions/0/620713633864746577/
19:58<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 14 00:00:59 2016