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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-14

---Logopened Sun Feb 14 00:00:59 2016
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02:07<andythenorth>o/
02:09<V453000>sup yo
02:09<V453000>progrez?
02:11<andythenorth>yair
02:12<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7637/vehicle_factory_3.png
02:13<andythenorth>shading is wrong
02:13<andythenorth>trying to get some shapes
02:13<andythenorth>I went for modern look
02:13<V453000>that is infinitely better than yesterday
02:14<V453000>cars look rather bad, and I would add white elements to the CC boxes
02:14<V453000>but other than that, really good
02:14<andythenorth>I am glad you suggested white
02:14<andythenorth>I woke up at 4am and had same thought
02:15<andythenorth>also is super realisms http://teknikensvarld.se/wp-content/uploads/import/images/global/nyheter/2012/10/16/saab-fabriken.jpg
02:15<V453000>well the cars aren't that horrible, but ... yeah :) various car models that hard? :P
02:15<V453000>haha
02:15<V453000>good
02:15<andythenorth>I need cars, trucks, machines
02:15<andythenorth>I think vehicles have to be different colours, not just CC
02:15<andythenorth>which I hate :P
02:15<andythenorth>I like CC
02:16<andythenorth>I am going to do a white office building, but not this one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7635/vehicle_factory_2.png
02:17<V453000>I would like the top part to be a bit shorter so it doesn't go all the way to the edge https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/vehicle_factory_3.png
02:18<andythenorth>I can do that probably
02:18<V453000>yeah colourful cars would be nice, but mainly they need more contrast I think ... they look blurry compared to the other things
02:20<andythenorth>I’m not short of vehicles
02:20<andythenorth>I have 2 whole grfs of them :P
02:20<V453000>in fact, various coloured cars would probably give it an unique look, and immediately intuitively obvious that it is a car factory
02:20<V453000>yes I know
02:20<V453000>USE THEM :P
02:21<_johannes>andythenorth: I like it, it really fits the other industries in the game
02:22<_johannes>will you also do 32 bpp versions?
02:22<V453000>XD
02:22<V453000>in yo face
02:23<andythenorth>I have outsourced the 32bpp
02:23<V453000>32bpp or lyfe
02:23<andythenorth>it is on V453000’s to-do list
02:23<andythenorth>but his list is long
02:24<_johannes>ok :D
02:24<V453000>his list is really fucked up long
02:25<andythenorth>V453000: not sure about the black vertical dividers on the end of the CC sheds
02:25<andythenorth>I wanted something not used anywhere else
02:25<andythenorth>but looks odd
02:26<V453000>try white :)
02:26<V453000>moar consistency to the industry
02:28*andythenorth sorting the roof out
02:28<andythenorth>shortenining the roof extension (per your drawing) is logical, but makes it disappear into the roofline at the back
02:28<V453000>btw teh newborn is live
02:28<andythenorth>:o
02:28<andythenorth>when?
02:28<V453000>12.2. 18:33
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02:34<_johannes>do we have an expert for the yapf algorithm?
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04:29<andythenorth>o/
04:35<@Alberth>moin
04:41<andythenorth>V453000: 2 storeys or 3? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7638/vehicle_factory_4.png
04:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7639/vehicle_factory_5.png
04:42<andythenorth>clue: I am planning to add more similar buildings, in white (offices) and CC (goods in, with chemical tank and stuff)
04:42<andythenorth>I think the others need to be lower
04:43<@Alberth>3 levels looks 3 times as impressive :)
04:44<@Alberth>you could do a few variations in layout with different heights
04:44<andythenorth>I think the 2 level one looks better, in isolation
04:45<andythenorth>but when I add other buildings, I think it will get lost
04:45<@Alberth>could be
04:45<@Alberth>3 levels is a bit massive indeed
04:46<@Alberth>on the other hand, we have houses that are at least as high :)
04:46<andythenorth>yes
04:50<@Alberth>imho it is not a bad thing if industry is really present
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04:53<@Alberth>hi hi TB
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04:54<@Alberth>andy, you have many 2 level buildings at other industries :)
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04:58<andythenorth>yes
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05:15<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7640/vehicle_factory_6.png
05:15<andythenorth>not sure I like 3 levels
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05:16<andythenorth>realism, but bland
05:16<andythenorth>looks like apartments :P
05:16<andythenorth>V453000: ^^ ?
05:16*andythenorth tries back to 2
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05:22<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7641/vehicle_factory_7.png
05:22<andythenorth>better imho
05:22<andythenorth>tall one looks like space shuttle assembly building
05:25<@Alberth>:)
05:26<@Alberth>7 is indeed better then 6
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05:48<argoneus>good morning train friends
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06:05<FLHerne>argoneus: Morning
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06:36<_johannes>Alberth: do you know how wrote YAPF, or who knows a lot about it?
06:36*andythenorth wonders what vehicles to use at vehicle factory
06:45<@Alberth>_johannes: former should be derivable from the commit log
06:47<@Alberth>but it's likely he is long gone, or doesn't know the details any more
06:48<_johannes>looks likt it was rubidium
06:49<_johannes>From what I understand, the pathfinder is an A* graph algorithm, the tiles that contain tracks are the nodes, and if two neighbour tiles are connected via a track, they make an edge
06:49<_johannes>do you think this is true?
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06:50<@Alberth>rubidium likely just committed it? if there is a issue number, that's the real person who wrote it
06:52<_johannes>issue number in the commit message?
06:52<@Alberth>I agree on your ideas about A*
06:52<@Alberth>and since the tile and track layout is used everywhere, you can use the same path finder everywhere
06:53<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Commit_style there is a standard way of writing a commit message
06:53<@Alberth>but depending on the age of the commit, things may be different :)
06:56<_johannes>:)
06:56<FLHerne>'KUDr', it seems? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24703
06:57<_johannes>what do you mean by " you can use the same path finder everywhere"
06:57<FLHerne>But I don't remember ever seeing that name, so probably inactive :-/
06:58<@Alberth>all path finders are usable for trains, road vehicles, and ships
06:59<@Alberth>aircraft just fly in a straight-ish line
07:03<@Alberth>KUDr left at around 0.6 https://wiki.openttd.org/Developers
07:04<_johannes>ok so what I need is to exactly use this algorithm, but instead of getting the next track where the train should continue, I'd like to get all stations that are on the path to the next order
07:05<_johannes>I think there are two ways to do that: (1) is to copy the current track finding algorithm and make a modification which returns all stations on the path
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>diving into the depth of YAPF internals is a scary thought
07:05<_johannes>(2) is to just add a callback function to the algorithm, something like "onEnterTile(Tile...)"
07:06<_johannes>which would, in my case, be used to check if that Tile is part of a station
07:06<_johannes>for me, (2) sounds more clean
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: the follow track function can already distinguish station tiles
07:06<@Alberth>I'd compute the path, and then check it for stations
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: i think what you need to do is modify the return value from a scalar to a linked list or something
07:08<@Alberth>A* walks in all directions, only afterwards you know which path is relevant
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>this might need adding another layer of templates onto it
07:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: ?
07:10<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: returning a complete list might be a performance issue
07:10<@Alberth>path = ComputePath(); for tile in path: if in station: append station to list
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07:10<@Alberth>hoi
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but the pathfinder currently only returns the first choice of the path, and throws everything else away
07:11<_johannes>not sure if yapf keeps the path internal, but I guess it does not, so in order to return it, we need to call malloc each time
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: building a linked list is certainly not more expensive than a full pathfinder run
07:12<@Alberth>_johannes: it must have the entire path, or you cannot decide the next tile
07:12<@Alberth>I'd just call it for every tile
07:12<_johannes>You mean calling YAPF repeatedly?
07:12<frosch123>hola
07:13<@Alberth>yep, you have no desire to keep the game running fluently right?
07:13<_johannes>Alberth: no
07:13<@Alberth>so the simplest way is to just continue calling it getting a next tile, until you reached the end
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: the way a pathfinder like YAPF works is it recurses into every choice there is to make, and upon a successful reaching of the destination, the return path of this recursion is the path that is taken
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: so along this return path, you need to build your linked list
07:14<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: ... or call a callback function
07:14<@Alberth>but if you want it in one go, the path finder must have the entire path at some point, so you'd need to rescue it then
07:15<@Alberth>_johannes: cb function fails, as the algorithm explores all directions, so you get call at every explored point in the map, not just at the optimal path
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: again, the pathfinder already does all things you need, it just discards it immediately except for the last return
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>you just need to string up these return values, to get your full path
07:16<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/a_star.png <-- yellow is the path, everything dark and light blue is also explored
07:17<@Alberth>maybe first understand how A* works?
07:17<_johannes>I think Eddi|zuHause just said that the path could be recovered?
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07:18<Wolf01>o/
07:18<frosch123>_johannes: take a look at CYapfReserveTrack::TryReservePath
07:18<frosch123>for (Node *node = m_res_node; node->m_parent != NULL; node = node->m_parent) { <- that loop iterates over the found path
07:19<@Alberth>hi hi W01
07:19<argoneus>Alberth 1v1 me in chess
07:19<Wolf01>why not 4v4?
07:19<argoneus>4v4 is imbalanced
07:20<frosch123>people can get very angry in 2v2 chess games
07:21<frosch123>when one team member loses the queen, and the other team member suddenly has to face two queens
07:21<+michi_cc>frosch123, _johannes: Almost :) It iterates starting with the chosen safe waiting point, which in turn is determined in e.g. CYapfFollowRailT::ChooseRailTrack (the if (pNode != NULL) part)
07:22<argoneus>frosch123 want to play chess?
07:22<Quatroking>do cities grow when one of its industries makes a massive turnover?
07:22<frosch123>no, i want to write a factorio->graphviz converter
07:23<frosch123>after watching the 2:30h speedrun, i think about building a different factory than usual
07:23<frosch123>but don't worry, i won't try a speedrun, i won't even consider playing the same map twice
07:24<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, I found the construction supplies :D
07:24<argoneus>frosch123: what do you want to graph?
07:24<frosch123>the cargo chain, but with "amount per time" units
07:25<frosch123>i want an easy graph to figure out the ratios for assembling machines
07:25<frosch123>without having to divide input/output amounts by production time
07:25<_johannes>frosch123: from that for loop you pasted, does YAPF simply add each direct A*-search-origin as m_parent?
07:26<argoneus>frosch123: foreman?
07:26<frosch123>_johannes: the resulting path is essentially a linked list (the back-links in the search tree)
07:26<argoneus>there's tons of tools to do that
07:26<argoneus>you tell them "I want to make 10 doodles in a minute"
07:27<argoneus>and it tells you what fiddles and toodles you need to make 10 doodles per minute
07:28<frosch123>i am sure i can write a custom tool myself faster than trying out several other tools which do only similar what i want
07:28<frosch123>it's also more fun
07:28<argoneus>they do exactly "amount per time" though
07:28<argoneus>but yeah I get writing your own
07:28<frosch123>and can they import factorio mods?
07:28<argoneus>yes
07:28<argoneus>you can check/uncheck mods
07:28<argoneus>foreman scans your game files
07:29<@Alberth>I am more a Go person nowadays, haven't played chess in a few decades
07:29<@Alberth>I played checkers some time ago, and discovered that moving pieces are very scary :p
07:30<argoneus>oh, that Go
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07:30<argoneus>I was wondering what programming has to do with chess
07:30<_johannes>michi_cc: the pNode != NULL part starts at the end of the path and then goes up the A* tree to get the whole path?
07:31<frosch123>Alberth: luckily there are two dozen rulesets for checkers :p
07:31<@Alberth>:O I know only one :p
07:31<+michi_cc>More or less yes. Nodes are tiles though, but run of tiles, which is why the called functions have their own sub-loops as well.
07:32<+michi_cc>s/are/aren't/ :)
07:32<frosch123>Alberth: there are like 3 versions each how to move normal pieces, enhanced pieces, and how normal pieces can remove other pieces
07:32<frosch123>which you can of course recombine into 27 variants
07:32<@Alberth>sounds likely :)
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07:33<frosch123>oh, and board sizes ofc
07:33<@Alberth>and tactics change a lot when you change such rules
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07:33<_johannes>michi_cc: "run of" tiles ? you're German, right? :D
07:34<_johannes>can you please translate that
07:34<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draughts#National_and_regional_variants <- only some of them
07:35<+michi_cc>_johannes: A node covers several tiles.
07:35<_johannes>oh ok...
07:37<_johannes>so should I add another function into CYapfFollowRailT that walks through the A* path and lists/returns/notifies all stations ?
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07:41<frosch123>argoneus: ok, i found a website. i guess i underestimated the size/activity of the factorio forums
07:41<argoneus>frosch123: foreman was a bit buggy the last time I used it thugh
07:41<argoneus>though*
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07:42<argoneus>not sure why, but it was loading the wrong numbers for some ores/plates
07:42<argoneus>but apparently those are wrong even in the game files
07:42<argoneus>but somehow the game fixes them
07:42<argoneus>shrug
07:42<argoneus>the rest seemed just fine though
07:42<frosch123>there are like dozen modifiers :p
07:43<frosch123>every cargo has a production time, but also assembling machines have speeds
07:43<frosch123>and funnily there is no machine with speed 1 :p
07:43<frosch123>hmm, maybe the player has speed 1
07:47<argoneus>oh I remember frosch123
07:47<argoneus>it somehow thought the drill:furnace ratio wasn't 1:1
07:47<argoneus>with electric furnaces
07:47<argoneus>it thought it was 1:2
07:47<argoneus>I don't know how that happened
07:47<argoneus>everything else seemed correct
07:47<argoneus>I made a post in the forums about this, let me see if I can find any resolution
07:49<argoneus>ah, found it
07:49<argoneus>frosch123: http://wiki.factorioforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=5576&start=190#p119700
07:49<argoneus>not gamebreaking, but still, not sure how that happens
07:49<argoneus>since it takes data straight out of the game
07:52<Quatroking>oh wow
07:52<Quatroking>I hit the vehicle limit for the first time ever
07:52<argoneus>grats
07:52<Quatroking>building freeways does that I guess
08:04<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7642/vehicle_factory_8.png
08:05<Quatroking>pretty
08:05<argoneus>andythenorth: that's from the original ttd files, isn't it?
08:05<andythenorth>the landscape is
08:05<argoneus>I mean the house
08:07<frosch123>andythenorth: randomise the recolouring on each vehicle tile?
08:07<andythenorth>I think so yes
08:07<andythenorth>I need to try it at least
08:08<andythenorth>I’m worried about finding colours that don’t clash horribly with the CC of the industry
08:08<andythenorth>but white at least seems safe :P
08:18<andythenorth>frosch123: 2CC industries? :P
08:18<frosch123>i like the white buildings :)
08:19*andythenorth is painting trucks white and silver right now
08:21<frosch123>no coloured vehicles? :o
08:22<andythenorth>might try some
08:22<andythenorth>dunno
08:22<andythenorth>yellow bulldozers? o_O
08:23<frosch123>yeah, considering the other industries, there is a high demand for heqs
08:23<@Alberth>do they ever have a different colour? :p
08:23<frosch123>yellow, white, red, orange
08:23<frosch123>blue and green are rare
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08:28<andythenorth>added some red vehicles http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7643/vehicle_factory_9.png
08:28<andythenorth>probably need at least one more tile of different vehicles
08:29<andythenorth>I _could_ make all the buildings white
08:29<andythenorth>and leave the CC only for vehicles and such
08:30<frosch123>i think it's nice this way
08:30<frosch123>all white would be boring
08:30<frosch123>but the white one in front, and the colour in the background is good
08:30<andythenorth>what colour are post vans in germany, holland?
08:31<frosch123>depends on the company :p
08:31<andythenorth>oic :)
08:31<frosch123>dhl is yellow with red stripe
08:31<frosch123>ubs is brown with this insanely weird amercian car layout, which makes no sense
08:31<frosch123>smaller companies have just plain white
08:32<frosch123>it's usually for reselling the vehicles
08:32<frosch123>like police cars used to be white with green/blue lines
08:32<frosch123>but now the green/blue part is a only a sticker
08:32<frosch123>and the car is silver
08:32<frosch123>after one year, the sticker is removed, and the car is sold again
08:32<frosch123>and silver sells well
08:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7644/vehicle_factory_10.png
08:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: That's much more beautiful than yesterday's :-)
08:56<@Alberth>looking great
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09:23<andythenorth>need to do 2 more buildings, including replacing those tanks
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09:31<FLHerne>Random FIRS nag - can we have more industries that fit onto slopes?
09:32<FLHerne>On rough maps, it looks a bit silly when two dozen industries are crammed onto each flattish area
09:32<FLHerne>Or I could just set it to generate fewer industries, o/c :P
09:41<andythenorth>tried v2 FIRS?
09:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/f80b2105cc71
09:44<FLHerne>No, I don't think so, still on 1.4.4
09:44*FLHerne should try that :-)
09:46<Quatroking>there's a v2?
09:46<Quatroking>I guess that one isn't on the in-game newgrf downloader thingy tool?
09:47<frosch>it needs ottd 1.6
09:47<Quatroking>I love how FIRS adds petrol stations to my freeways, by the way
09:48<FLHerne>From the look of it, that still rules out anything down the side of a mountain
09:49<FLHerne>Drift mines?
09:54<andythenorth>want to
09:54<andythenorth>not sure I can reliably find the correct shaped hillsides
09:54<andythenorth>but it’s an idea
09:54<andythenorth>actually it could work with foundations
09:58<andythenorth>copper mine will be redrawn something like this http://lh5.ggpht.com/-yyCBMJjHYTo/VDzBWraaqaI/AAAAAAAA8M8/hIh2rI7wITg/sewell-chile-8%25255B6%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800
09:59*andythenorth wonders if it can be forced on to hillsides
09:59<andythenorth>tends to be tricky
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10:47<V453000>andythenorth: the only problem I have is with the windows looking from behind https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/vehicle_factory_10.png
10:47<V453000>cars look WAY great in compare to earlier
10:47<V453000>white buildings are fine
10:48<V453000>could benefit from some tiny details on teh roof/roof edges I think but not a big deal
10:48<V453000>I would solve the "issue" by either moving the bright pixels in windows 1px lower
10:48<V453000>or making the middle blue segment have 3 floors?
10:49<V453000>editing windows sounds better
10:49<V453000>also, I would love if each of the 3 blue building roofs were at least a little different from each other
10:49<V453000>... same for the white ones roofs
11:11<andythenorth>I probably move the windows down I think
11:11<andythenorth>or increase building height 1-2px
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i think you could even leave it like that
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>maybe blue is not the best colour for the buildings
11:42<andythenorth>none of the colours are great
11:42<andythenorth>I could darken them by one shade
11:42<andythenorth>perhaps not actually, I’m out of range
11:47<andythenorth>I could two-tone the buildings white/CC in big horizontal stripes
11:47<andythenorth>not convinced it would be good mind
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think i'd prefer the brick-brown from yesterday
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause>/usr/include/c++/4.8/bits/basic_string.tcc:799:33: internal compiler error: Speicherzugriffsfehler
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound right
12:15<frosch>the latter word is german
12:19<Wolf01>ahah Eddi|zuHause, I just found a legendary item :D
12:19<Wolf01>a bit pricey 88k
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>i definitely got the "legendary" achievement with my 14k item
12:24<Wolf01>I'm roaming in the level 39 area, establishing a little base and sinking one ship at time it was easy
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i'm working my way through the level 18 areas
12:24<Wolf01>found a "strange diagram" too, I think is the one for the airship
12:25<Wolf01>and also, I'm playing as syndicate now
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12:37<Milek7>ouch, there isn't counter for cargo transported to industry last month?
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>no, only production last month
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>depending on industry set you may also have a stockpile
12:41<frosch>http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSCargoMonitor.html <- all the information is available
12:42<frosch>how else would gamescripts like nocargoal work?
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i was thinking GUI
12:46<Milek7>i must specify company?
12:46<Milek7>i want to get data from all companies
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>simply loop over all companies?
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause>so... i got this skill to throw water barrels, and ever since then, i haven't seen any fire that i could extinguish...
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14:32<Wolf01>eheh, sea is on fire here on level 39, I would like more water barrels :P
14:39<andythenorth>chimneys, always chimneys
14:39<andythenorth>no FIRS industry without a chimney
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14:46<andythenorth>ho
14:46<andythenorth>there are 20 different tall chimneys in FIRS :o
14:47*andythenorth doesn’t like repeating them :P
14:48<frosch>the smoke is the same most of the time, i guess
14:49<andythenorth>mostly
14:55<andythenorth>apart from roof detail, is this done? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7645/vehicle_factory_11.png
14:55*andythenorth might be losing perspective
14:55<andythenorth>the little building doesn’t quite fit, but I am lacking inspiration
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>ok, 1vs.3 doesn't really work :p
14:57<Wolf01>I can survive 1v4.. if there isn't a captain between them
15:00<andythenorth>ach see what forums say :P
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15:33<FLHerne>andythenorth: The three identical large roofs are still identical ;-)
15:34<FLHerne>Could stick some small pipework or big flue vents or something on one or two of them?
15:37<andythenorth>yup
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15:46<Wolf01>finally... completed the instance at level 39
16:09<sim642>I've managed to code up a dummy spectator client in nodejs now that can do IRC bridging without having to connect via admin port or whatever
16:09<sim642>from the category "how to spend 2 days of your time implementing a plugin which will never be used for an IRC bot which will never be used"
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16:11*andythenorth must to bed
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16:18<drac_boy>hi
16:18<Crisco>anyone help me out - how to add CPUs to existing saves?
16:19<@Alberth>?
16:20<frosch>what does cpu mean?
16:20<drac_boy>cpus? ... ?
16:21<drac_boy>heh seem I'm not the only one confused now
16:21<Crisco>computer... a competitor
16:21<drac_boy>you mean AI btw crisco :)
16:21<frosch>open the ai settings in the menu
16:21<frosch>and increase the number of competitors
16:21<frosch>within the game, not in the mainscreen
16:22<Crisco>but it says I need to download AI from the internet?
16:22<Crisco>Isn't there a stock AI installed on the game?
16:22<frosch>no
16:22<drac_boy>frosch, really...so they stripped it out?
16:22<Crisco>ah okay, can you suggest a good AI to download
16:22<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs
16:23<frosch>drac_boy: are you eddi in disguise?
16:23<frosch>did you play the game since 2009?
16:23<Crisco>oh perfect
16:24<drac_boy>heh frosch .. I still have no idea what you talking about .. the AI has been there ever since the game was first made .. unless like I asked, have they stripped it out recently?
16:24<frosch>no, in 2009
16:25<frosch>thus why i ask what "recently" means to you
16:25<@Rubidium>anything in the last 100ky? ;)
16:26<_dp_>haha, didn't notice AI's are gone either
16:26<_dp_>who needs them, AI's are stupid :p
16:26<Crisco>Yeah but it gets repetitive just doing solo all the time
16:26<@Rubidium>_dp_: that's the whole point, some of the new ones aren't stupid
16:27<_dp_>Crisco, go join some multiplayer server
16:27<drac_boy>dp heh .. they may had not been good with rail routing but I never found them too absurb at all
16:27<drac_boy>to our own tho
16:27<Crisco>I'll give it a go
16:28<FLHerne>Crisco: I'd recommend Reddit server 1 if you're new to multiplayer
16:29<FLHerne>Busy, usually friendly, no newgrfs or scripts
16:29-!-urdh [~urdh@00013d7a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Boom!]
16:30<FLHerne>Oh, and the map's just refreshed so there's loads of space to build atm :-)
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16:44<drac_boy>had to check web list just out of curiousity and hm this one probably would had sound good to me if it wasn't for the current date on there http://www.openttd.org/en/server/74477
16:45<peter1138>reddit's rule 3 is stupid though
16:45<drac_boy>rule?
16:46<_dp_>still kinda miss a purpose of ai's, it's not a competitive game per se and if not competing then what, watching their weird networks?
16:46<peter1138>sure it's competitive
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16:47<drac_boy>dp, your ai not building a station next to the same coal mine you're already using? :)
16:48<_dp_>peter1138, hah, then what's the goal?))
16:48<drac_boy>peter ah I see what you mean about the rules...tbh for a cooperative game #3 is right in place tho
16:49<V453000>I don't see any purpose in AI either
16:49<V453000>at all
16:49<V453000>just map clogger/cpu consumer
16:49<peter1138>AI is meant to be a competitor
16:49<peter1138>just because it's not very good at it doesn't matter
16:50<peter1138>lets face it, newbies aren't very good at it either :p
16:50<V453000>yeah that doesn't
16:50<V453000>but the fact that it is infuriatingly terrible, does matter :P
16:50<peter1138>that's why we defered the task of making it good to other script writers, heh
16:50<V453000>yeah, AI able to beat a player who hasn't seen the game ever yet ... useful competitor.
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>hey, i learned about signals from the AI
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the original ai, that is
16:52<V453000>that probably explains your signalling knowledge XD :P
16:52<V453000>had to :>
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure whether that was still in the demo or if i had the full game already
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16:57<drac_boy>if its clogging your map then why are you blocking its original routes? I dunno tbh tho heh
16:57<V453000>any piece of the map AI takes means stupid obstacle to the player
16:57<drac_boy>although I think there was one single map that the early ai just didn't understand. some kind of britian map with lot of one-way signalled tracks
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16:58<drac_boy>umm like I said, if its making weird routes then why are you blocking its original one?
16:58<V453000>?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>no AI will understand rails that it did not build itself
16:59<V453000>it always does weird shit even if the player doesn't interfere
16:59<drac_boy>well I've only seen it not make straight rails if I left something of my own in its way while it was halfway through
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>the original ai was terrible with roads, because it could not cross diagonal rails with a bridge
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>so it left giant messes of circles
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>and it never cleared roads up
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>and you couldn't remove them eiher
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>+t
17:00<drac_boy>humans not clearing their roads also sometimes happens too
17:01<drac_boy>at least in singleplayer that 'road owner invalided by lack of traffic' setting is nice to have nevertheless
17:01<V453000>only a total retard would build messes of circles :P
17:01<V453000>it is a shame no AI can build decent railways
17:01<V453000>at least I haven't seen such
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: but they would not build 10x5 areas of completely filled roads
17:06<drac_boy>actually they do indeed build many circling roads jst because they don't want to build the station in a more open spot
17:06<drac_boy>kinda funny to watch this on tropical maps a bit too often :-s (no hills in way yeah)
17:07<drac_boy>at least one good thing about tropical maps in MP was all the water to profit from :)
17:17<drac_boy>crisco I know its bit OT now but just asking, you ever tried any industry grf or always only ever used the original one?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause><frosch> drac_boy: are you eddi in disguise? <-- ey... i played the game in 2012!
17:45<Wolf01>http://englishrussia.com/2016/02/13/most-unusual-buses-of-the-soviet-time/ nice, there are enough strange buses to make a full grf
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>probably not enough pixels for that
17:54<Supercheese>Who says that Mack trucks can't refit to passengers? http://englishrussia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/9-800x600.jpg ;)
17:54<Supercheese>fun stuff from that link
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18:02<drac_boy>wolf01 well....that first bus indeed looks rather strange
18:03<drac_boy>and supercheese .. "truck" buses are actually somewhat typical in some countries around the africa or south europe areas .. I forgot exactly where but I've seen many photos taken of them
18:03<Supercheese>yeah I can believe it, but it looks very very strange to me
18:03<Wolf01>I've never seen a truck bus here
18:03<Supercheese>US regulatory agencies would have a fit if such a thing was attempted here
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>the amount of photos that exist of something is not really proportional with how common it is
18:04<drac_boy>naturally eg france/usa/etc don't even allow them due to the usual "no passengers in a trailer when it is moving" kind of regulations (thats why a vehicle+trailer rv always has a small daytime interior in the vehicle half itself)
18:04<drac_boy>supercheese see what I just said heh ^
18:04<Supercheese>ya
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: there have definitely been busses with trailers
18:05<Wolf01>yes, but they are articulated buses, not completely separated vehicles
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18:06<drac_boy>wolf01 actually I forgot about it till now and I have no clue how the regulations covers them (I only know of swiss's example anyway) ... heres one for you http://www.trolleybus.ch/images/content/bilder_allg/Luzern_Portrait.jpg
18:07<drac_boy>these were done due to the old buses being still reliable but not lowfloor-ready so rather than scrapping/selling the buses they simply added these low-floor units
18:08<drac_boy>the window line difference says it all if you noticed
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, not articulated. a real separated trailer: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:IFA_H6B_mit_Personenanhänger_vom_Typ_HW80_(W701)._-_Flickr_-_gravitat-OFF.jpg
18:09<drac_boy>funny thing about the swiss one tho is, the trailer has no motors .. but yet I haven't heard of any of them struggling through the snowy roads (the fact theres lot of slopes everywhere also says something too)
18:09<drac_boy>probably the swiss people knew what a real winter-grip tire was :)
18:09<drac_boy>(compared to eg the ottawa buses here that runs on same tire from summer through winter too often and they wonder why their buses get stuck a lot!)
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18:11<sim-al2>Wait I thought most people "up north" so to speak had winter tires
18:12<drac_boy>sim-a12 some crappy cities in canada have no clue .. whats offending is that the ottawa politics basically said "our climate is special that we can't just buy any winter tires yet" ... thats literally ignoring finland/switzerland/etc which have buses running on true winter tires of all the things
18:12<drac_boy>I know about that quote because I actually read it in the meeting announcements some time ago
18:13<drac_boy>and btw supercheese it looks like you can add cuba to the list I think http://muller.lbl.gov/travel_photos/Cuba/Cuba-Images/281.jpg
18:13<drac_boy>the irregular roofline doesn't surprise me ... its probably following the floor height of the original trailer chassis me think?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, the bus type that i linked was usually driven without trailer if the route went through hilly terrain
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>oh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_bus
18:17<drac_boy>oh and I forgot the usa city name now but on the topic of slight unusual things .. there was one usa city with trolleybus services ... and during certain winter days they always stationed a heavy haul tow truck at the bottom of a certain long steep street to push up any trolleybus that came this way
18:18<drac_boy>apparently the roads were sometimes a bit too slick there a few days a year!
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that sounds like san francisco :p
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18:19<Supercheese>San Fran grades are steeeep
18:19<sim-al2>I think San Francisco has had lots of trouble with buses stalling
18:19<drac_boy>does it even snow in san francisco? :P
18:19<sim-al2>Not really
18:19<Supercheese>basically never
18:19<sim-al2>Too close to the ocean, it's just north of what is essentially a Mediterrean climate
18:19<Supercheese>if it ever snowed hard in San Fran, the city would be completely paralyzed
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, how should i know...
18:20<Supercheese>same goes for most of California
18:20<drac_boy>sim-a12 little funny fact: sometimes the cable cars can have trouble re-engaging the cable after coming to a uphill red light stop and so you have these friendly bus or truck giving them a slow nudge to get a bit speed to try engage cable
18:20<sim-al2>Coastal California, inland is far different
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>california is huge... it spans several climate zones
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>and in mountaneous areas you have these micro climates where every valley has its own unique climate
18:21<sim-al2>Yeah, nothing like desert, temperate grassland, and temperate rainforest in the same state :)
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's like you mushed spain, england and the alps together
18:22<drac_boy>sim-a12 the real reason these nudges happens is because if the cable car from a standstill (and gravity working against it) tried to forcefully clamp onto the cable .. it would risk shredding the cable braids itself
18:23<drac_boy>you know what I'm saying? this is what I have heard from some people watching these things
18:23<sim-al2>Yeah, I know they use wood in the grip to ease the wear
18:24<Wolf01>'night
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18:25<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw did you know that there was actually a small cable car (vehicle even looked exactly like san franciso's) outside calfornia? it was on expo ground too
18:25<Supercheese>Spokane, WA used to have cable cars too
18:25<Supercheese>they ditched them though
18:25<Supercheese>once buses got powerful enough and such
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: sometimes you just need them to be obsolete at the right time for someone to say "hey we should preserve them for tourism"
18:27<sim-al2>There's been some complaints in SF about a private shuttle bus some company. It runs straight up one of the hills using just a regular coach bus, so it's slow and pretty loud
18:27<Supercheese>well Spokane also doesn't have the crazy slopes that SF does
18:28<sim-al2>The earliest railways used some cable haulage too, since steam locomotives in the 1830s weren't all that powerful
18:28<Supercheese>those cable cars could ascend almost any grade at the same cable speed, crazy power available
18:28<Supercheese>could/can
18:28<sim-al2>So they tried to keep it as level as possible, and than had one big hill that the trains would be hauled up
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: it also was that they didn't really trust the adhesion
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>sim-al2: they usually dropped the cable as soon as they felt comfortable
18:29<sim-al2>Supercheese: Not being limited to what fits on the vehicles helps a lot too
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>most rack rail lines met the same fate
18:29<sim-al2>Yeah, true. Apparently some of the London terminai still have steep slopes near the station because of it
18:30<Supercheese>it's pretty neat that every little coach has the massive power of the stationary engines available to it, basically only limited by gripping power
18:30<Supercheese>I can see why the 19th century engineers thought it was the way to go
18:31<Supercheese>but of course the severe limitation of only being able to go where the cable itself goes...
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: with trains you don't usually use a continuously running cable. more like one engine will go down, and another go up at the same time
18:32<sim-al2>The Usui pass in central Japan started out as a rack railway, since it has slopes of 6.67%. In the early 60's they removed it and replaced it with pairs of dedicated electric locomotives that helped all trains up and down, even the multiple unit trains
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>also, mountain cable cars mostly work on that principle as well
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need a lot of power that way, as the masses are mostly balanced
18:33<Supercheese>funiculars yeah
18:34<Supercheese>♪ Funiculí, Funiculá ♫
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>that song is rarely sung with the original text around here :p
18:35<Supercheese>I hear lots of instrumental versions, even more so than ones with lyrics
18:35<Supercheese>no one here would understand the original lyrics anyway
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>with "not original" i mean really dirty versions that people come up when drunk :p
18:36<Supercheese>Heh
18:41<drac_boy>btw the glasgow metro was cable-worked in a circular manner too I believe.....later the electrical power pickups were retrofitted into the tunnel
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19:03<drac_boy>sim-a12 that actually reminds me I think .. let me check...
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19:06<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah they had 3rd rail ED* series (there were at least two generations as far as I recall from english pages) for banking duty .. at least one of these generation was always left in a 3-units working sets too
19:07<drac_boy>and one later operation rule was that diesel-hydraulic sets had to have their drivetrain uncoupled then pushed up 'dead' due to the inherit problems in trying to match the two different locomotives together
19:08<drac_boy>oh and why 3rd rail instead of overhead even although this was far from any urbans? well naturally steam era tunnel clearances was why (or thats what I think was said, I may be wrong on that particular tidbit)
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>tunnels with 3rd rail was very standard...
19:10<sim-al2>Uh in which area?
19:11<sim-al2>*Drac_boy: Which area are you talking about?
19:11<drac_boy>eddi well this one .. it was overhead at the stations and beyond .. but on just usui pass itself they had to use 3rd rail instead
19:11<drac_boy>there being tons of old tunnel necessariting this doesn't surprise me
19:12<sim-al2>Are you sure? I don't 3rd rail was ever used on the JNR lines
19:12<drac_boy>sim-a12 usui pass
19:12<drac_boy>and heres a good photo with the 3rd rail easily visible http://6.fan-site.net/~haasan55/images/Abtusui/usuihakutaka-2mm.JPG
19:12<drac_boy>and thats one of these 3-units electric pusher on the tail
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>tunnels are also the reason why on the swiss network the profile for pantographs is much smaller than in the rest of europe
19:12<sim-al2>Oh wow
19:13<drac_boy>sim-a12 seeing I can't read japanese well I *suspect* but could be wrong that this is the only one example of non-overhead electrification in open country for japan
19:13<sim-al2>Oh, they were dual equiped locomotives: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/JGR-10001-EL.jpg
19:13<drac_boy>sim-a12 'dual' was only so they could still work beyond the usui pass section itself after all :)
19:14<sim-al2>Yeah, 3rd rail seems non-existant except for a few subway lines
19:15<sim-al2>Makes me wonder if they used 750 VDC on the wires too
19:15<drac_boy>sim-a12 well it could be dual dc voltage, you know 1500V or 3000V (whatever the usual was I forgot now) overhead but more direct <=750V for 3rd rail
19:16<sim-al2>Whoops, it was 600 VDC
19:16<sim-al2>These were built in the 1930's: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%BD%E9%89%84ED42%E5%BD%A2%E9%9B%BB%E6%B0%97%E6%A9%9F%E9%96%A2%E8%BB%8A
19:17<sim-al2>Good that text is a mess
19:17<drac_boy>sim-a12 this may not always be the case but third rail usually was set at similar voltage the traction motors used....basically avoided large transformers when you could just run taps directly off the pickup shoes
19:17<sim-al2>I don't think 3000 VDC was ever used, the mainlines were either 1500 VDC after the 30's/40's, or some systems in the 60's onwards 20kV, 50 or 60 Hz
19:18<sim-al2>Many private railways used 600 or 750 VDC, but were upped to 1500 VDC through the 50's onward
19:19<sim-al2>I think this was an isolated system until the 60's, as most of the mainlines were electrified by that point
19:19<drac_boy>btw you're right but I guessed right that it was 1500V tho :)
19:20<sim-al2>That DMU in the picture is either a Kiha 80/82 or a 181, they were used on the non-electrified lines until nearly all were electrified, and then served in more mountainous secondary lines
19:20<drac_boy>I think like 3300V or so was generally the highest mass-usage-case for dc electrification anyhow. there may had been some single instances of ever higher but they wouldn't be among the common tho
19:21<sim-al2>The Soviets had a segment of ~6000 VDC, in their experience DC electrifcation was more efficient, even with the wire losses and the high efficency of AC substations the locmotive equipment represented notable losses
19:22<sim-al2>But since there was already 2 systems in use, no one wanted to create a large 3rd system
19:22<drac_boy>heh
19:23<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 there is also one very unusual electrification from the very early day, and its main purpose was to set a speed record .. I don't think it was even used for commerical purposes .. let me check one sec
19:23<sim-al2>It's always possible someone will be a high voltage DC in the future, power transmission is already going that way, and electrical equipment is getting more and more capable of doing it
19:23<sim-al2>*DC electrification system
19:25<Flygon>You can use an overhead third rail...
19:25<sim-al2>Notably in Japan, there is now an area of 25kV, 50 Hz through the Seikan tunnel, since freight trains and Shinkansen trains will be sharing the tracks starting next month
19:25<sim-al2>They do use overhead third rail on the majority of subway lines
19:25<drac_boy>http://dingler.culture.hu-berlin.de/dingler_static/pj319/32199826Z/tx3190771b.png here you go sim-a12 and THAT thing in 1903 went at like 210kph which was a big thing :)
19:26<sim-al2>It's at the same height as catenary, but prevents arcing and other problems that would result from flexing
19:26<drac_boy>and its 3 or 4 (I'm not certain exactly, details doesn't say much) separate lines feeding that test locomotive
19:26<sim-al2>Damn looks like a full three-phase AC system
19:26<sim-al2>Most three-phase systems used two wires, and the rails carried the 3rd phase
19:27<drac_boy>sim-a12 well 1903 was probably a different day skills-wise
19:27<sim-al2>Italian and Swiss systems were being built at that time, one Italian system used it into the 70's
19:28<sim-al2>I think there are still some isolated mountain railways that still do
19:28<drac_boy>actually I know one (which is still running with its original well-preserved woodie cladded locomotive) rack railway that had dual overhead wires using "half-width" bow collectors on both
19:29<drac_boy>let me see if I can find that one again one sec
19:29<sim-al2>Yeah, the drawback is that the wires have to be seperate, which makes switches, etc harder to wire
19:29<drac_boy>yep here we are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rhune_electric_system.jpg
19:29<sim-al2>Thus the widespread use of single-phase, which only needs the one wire
19:30<drac_boy>well it was a one-train line so they had no turnouts I imagine :P
19:30<drac_boy>look at that old classic pre-metalbody locomotive tho heh :)
19:30<drac_boy>the side access panels actually faces the traction motor as I recall from my rail magazine that ran an article on this particular railway
19:31<drac_boy>sim-a12 either way its nice that you seem to know your KIHA units .. I just know that a kiha is a kiha and thats about it :-s
19:32<drac_boy>hehe
19:32<sim-al2>There's a very small chance it's a Kiha 90, I don't think many of those were produced though
19:32<sim-al2>English sources are kinda of rare unfortunatly
19:33<sim-al2>The important difference between the 80 and the 181 is the engines used
19:34<sim-al2>On the 80, middle cars (except the dining cars where used) has two DMF17 engines, 250 hp each, driving one axle each on the adjacent bogie
19:34<drac_boy>sim-a12 on the other hand I do know that the locomotive classification system mentions that there can be eg kiku which was a control car with no engines to use together with the kiha's
19:35<sim-al2>The cab car has only one engine, and the dining car none (I think), because the hold decent size generators that provide electrical power
19:36<drac_boy>well the dining car was likely paired with at least 2 if not more coaches hence theres probably still enough power in the entire trainset nevertheless?
19:36<sim-al2>The early 80s look really odd, they had a large bonnet going: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/JNR_Kiha80.jpg
19:37<sim-al2>Yeah, I think the diner's power consumption is the equivalent of three regular cars
19:37<drac_boy>heheh oh boy sim-a12 theres actually a few EMU and DMU sets with that sort of bonnets .. even some of these had 1950's fashion stacked headlights sticking out too
19:38<sim-al2>Oh whoops, the diner does have a single propulsion engine
19:39<sim-al2>The 151 series EMU and early 481/485 dual voltage trains had it too
19:39<sim-al2>Also the 181, basically later production 151s
19:40<drac_boy>yeah the 151 is kinda what I was thinking even :)
19:40<drac_boy>some of the others had more pronounced ones
19:41<sim-al2>They created the Japanese limited express (long distance) train format, with good speed capiblities compared to their predecessors (even on the narrow gauge, the 151 hit 161km/h), and distributed traction throughout the train
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19:41<sim-al2>Essentially, they are the predecessor to the Shinkansen
19:42<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw there is one particular trainset that just has a little bonnet but nevertheless had one interesting design difference..one sec :p
19:42<sim-al2>151 kei: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/2/2c/%E5%9B%BD%E9%89%84151%E7%B3%BB_2.jpg\
19:43<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/7/7e/%E5%9B%BD%E9%89%84151%E7%B3%BB.jpg
19:43<sim-al2>Damn, it's breaking my links
19:43<sim-al2>2nd one works though
19:46<sim-al2>There were many of the bonnet style in service until the 2000's/past few years, as early cab cars were mated with later 485 trains capable of operating on both 50 and 60 Hz AC power
19:47<sim-al2>481 and 483 were both dual voltage, it's just that 481 was for 60Hz, and the 483 for 50Hz, as transformers weren't as advanced in the early 60's
19:48<drac_boy>here sim-a12 took me a while to find its actual numbering (rather than the grouped "romance railcar" label as english sometimes gives them) https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/小田急7000形電車
19:48<drac_boy>imagine the front seat bench was a bit of exclusive reservation, not sure
19:49<sim-al2>Oh, the Kiha 90 and Kiha 181 had only one engine per car, a much more powerful DML30 rated at 500hp, and on some later trains, over 600hp. It was a 180 degree V12 design, far more advanced than the DMF17, which dated to the 1930's
19:49<sim-al2>Your link didn't work for me, it got corrupted :(
19:49<sim-al2>Oh Odakyu
19:50<drac_boy>600hp V12? thats something compared to 550hp total from two 6-inline engines the budd rdc came configured with from factory
19:51<drac_boy>at least later repowers (especially with cummins or detroit engine in some cases) had a lot more power
19:51<sim-al2>Oh yeah, but the Budds were powered by engines from the early 40's
19:52<sim-al2>Not even turbocharged, and 2-stroke oo
19:52<sim-al2>*too
19:52<drac_boy>the funny thing is one of these repower was for the VIA northern line ... the rdc could had gotten over 100kph in no time, but of course with the old rails its in-service speed was generally just about 40-60kph max
19:54<sim-al2>Yeah I've read about those, they still have two engines right? It seemed almost like they removed one during the rebuild
19:54<drac_boy>sim-a12 actually the way the mechanicals is set up .. its one engine per truck .. and HEP/etc has to be drawn off one or both units
19:55<drac_boy>so thats why it was a bit easier to just keep them dual-power even if only one engine was really enough
19:55<sim-al2>Oh huh, I thought it might be rather unpowered with only 400hp, but Vancouver island seems pretty flat
19:56<drac_boy>funny enough there was a RDC-9 that had just one engine (likely just one single truck was powered by then tho) and no cabs .. call it an intermidate-only coach I suspect
19:56<sim-al2>But of course the other lines in the east are probably have a little bit more going on
19:57<sim-al2>Yeah, RDC-9 seems to be the result of Budd warning railroads against using regular coaches in the trains for fear of damaging the transmissions
19:59<drac_boy>sim-a12 well the funny thing is noone seem to have asked budd about the rdc's being used as dead-towed coaches in a loco hauled train too
19:59<sim-al2>One rather interesting way they were used, they featured full steam-pipe hookups so they could be attached to the end of a regular train and hauled to an intermediate destination
19:59<sim-al2>They actually were, Budd included procedures in the manuals on how to do so
19:59<sim-al2>One engine does have to kept idiling, but fuel wasn't expensive then
20:00<drac_boy>I know one railroad that basically had a train that went a bit like FA1-rpo-heavyweightcoach*3-rdc-coach-rdc-coach-coach .. basically one single starting city point but terminate at three separate rural points :)
20:00<sim-al2>The steam system also provided low-level heat to keep the toilets and engine water systems from freezing during layovers
20:01<sim-al2>Oh yeah, that sounds about right
20:01<drac_boy>sim-a12 about steam-pipe thats actually why some "high speed" boxcars actually had pass-through pipes or wires as to be mashed behind the locomotive in express trains
20:01<drac_boy>there even were one large fleet of amtrak-specific HEP-ready boxcars (most has been retired by now tho)
20:02<drac_boy>one sec I know where a few were still being put up for sale privately...
20:02<sim-al2>The Denver and Rio Grande actually had a long-distance RDC train, used on 900+ mile train
20:02<drac_boy>here http://www.railmerchants.net/amtrak-material-handling/
20:03<sim-al2>Certain express cars featured steam heating systems, as silkworms and other cargo needed to be kept warm during transportation
20:03<drac_boy>oh well.. pass-through versus using it are two different things but mm yeah
20:03<sim-al2>The Milwaukee road would put their crack electric passenger locomotives on such trains
20:04<drac_boy>sim-a12 actually.. silk and milwaukee reminds me of an exact artwork one moment :P
20:05<sim-al2>Yeah, the MHCs had HEP, but Amtrak express boxcars (basically regular cars except for passenger trucks) didn't. They also had freight type air brake valves, which meant the brakes had to be run in direct release, not graduated
20:07<drac_boy>ah seem whoever drew it took it offline finally..oh well heres something with passenger wagon instead of hi-cube silk boxcars tho http://www.jordanart.com/Images/medium%20size%20art/juice.jpg
20:08<sim-al2>Yeah, the EP2s are rather interesting, traction motor amatures mounted on the axles themselves
20:09<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 the funny thing is that the bells were connected to an automate circuit that would always ring the bell at low speed, apparently their direct-drive motor was too quiet around the yards :)
20:11<drac_boy>don't tell anyone personally but for me I sorta always liked the EP-2 over the GG1 aethistic-wise for some reason
20:11<sim-al2>Heh wow, I suppose the EF1s didn't have that problem :D
20:11<drac_boy>the GG1 does have its own merits tho, especially for highspeed commuter services (and probably saving the electric system for amtrak era)
20:11*sim-al2 hides from the fanboy assault
20:12<drac_boy>kinda funny that it took a foreign-designed locomotive to one-up the GG1 itself (the homemade EC60-something was a failure in face of FRA)
20:12<sim-al2>There was freight gearing for the GG1 too, they were used double-headed on freights even into the Penn Central era
20:12<sim-al2>Yeah, the problem was that the E60C was a freight locomotive through and through
20:13<drac_boy>sim-a12 ah..well they were good on fast freights or modest things such as autocarriers/boxcars/etc ... they didn't exactly handle heavy tonnage that well due to the direct AC drive which could slip a lot
20:13<drac_boy>thats why a lot of the times if you saw a GG1 in freight service it was quite often running doublehead
20:13<sim-al2>Same bogies and frame design as GE diesels of the time, and little in the way of weight reduction possible
20:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw the "passenger" SD unit also had its own problem with water tank mounted above chassis line and would derail a lot ... therefore the F40PH design which came soon enough to kill off the rusting F units away in a manner speaking
20:14<sim-al2>Yeah, the pilot axles took weight off the drivers, but they were needed with the way the frames were designed
20:15<sim-al2>Yeah, apparently the tank had no baffling, for some reason
20:15<drac_boy>I forgot the numbering .. just that it was SD-something
20:15<sim-al2>SDP40F
20:16<drac_boy>santa fe on the other hand did have some dual freight-or-passenger duty diesels (I believe they came later enough to such that they only needed HEP not steam aboard) ... and sure enough a number of the passenger ones were turned into freight units later on
20:16<sim-al2>For whatever reason, the extra water capacity Amtrak wanted over the passenger versions of the SD40/SD45 was too much
20:17<drac_boy>not sure of all the details, and I forgot the # either
20:17<sim-al2>No HEP until Amtrak developed it, Santa Fe used steam on the trains it was running at the time
20:18<sim-al2>Before HEP, each car carried it's own large-capacity batteries and axle-generators, and whatever inverter it might need, even for air conditioning
20:19<drac_boy>I do recall that amtrak kinda did not want some of santa fe's long-distance wagons which had a vapour-steam dual climate system or something to that effect (but amtrak took them anyway as to be able to buy the big fleet of other wagons especially superlevels that they did want!) and after many troubles finally rebuilt them in a more conventional mechanical fashion
20:19<sim-al2>There a few SDP40s and SDP45s with steam generators, as well as the FP45 and U30CG
20:20<drac_boy>as to why santa fe had these in first place was rather easy to understand .. it was one single wagon that had to operate through ever-changing climate nonstop from the snowy east to the hot sunny west
20:20<sim-al2>I think a number of the cars that Amtrak had were ex-Santa Fe, apparently Amtrak had to buy ALL the cars because Amtrak had been low-balling for the more modern cars so long the managment got sick of it
20:21<sim-al2>A number of heavyweights were owned by Amtrak for a short time, but were scrapped onsite
20:23<drac_boy>sim-a12 you're correct...amtrak tried offer one price, got turned down, offered another only to get same thing...and then actually phoned one of the man while he was on vacation .. final result was basically "you can have these wagons IF you take EVERYTHING except a few private wagons!"
20:23<drac_boy>I actually was reading an article about this santafe-to-amtrak era before and funny enough recall some bits of it now :)
20:24<drac_boy>oh and it even mentioned how santa fe later did not let amtrak use the Super Chief (or was it a different Chief? I forgot) name anymore as they did not agree on the then-existing trainset's condition
20:28<drac_boy>sim-a12 I forgot the exact name of it but did you know that one of the diesel santa fe train actually "ran" as two separate trains even with separated dining services too
20:28<drac_boy>it was some kind of seasonal thing I think
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20:33<drac_boy>sim-a12 heres a silly usa quiz for you, what electric locomotive was meant to be shipped as a 5ft gauged one to russia bu tthen the embargo happened so many of them were regauged to 4ft8 and generally quite re-wired for at least three different buyers? ;)
20:58<sim-al2>GE Little Joe, whatever the actual designation was
20:58<sim-al2>Impressive to get a locomotive like that to run on 1500 VDC and 3000 VDC
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is not hard at all
21:00<sim-al2>at the same power
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's "just" a matter of driving more amperes through the wire
21:01<drac_boy>well eddi..just one or two of them was enough to brown out the grid till they were moved to working during more nightly hours :)
21:02<drac_boy>and the same arthor who found about this also mentioned that on riding one of them it dropped its brake riggings in middle of a turnout .. some tape fixed it tho
21:03<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah the 'little joe' was a milwaukee nickname for stalin
21:07<sim-al2>Actually I have to wonder if they were modified at all for the South Shore, operation would have been possible with much reduced performance
21:07<drac_boy>sim-a12 also not same kind of subject but theres at least one tourist line in usa that still had (last the article was written a few years ago) a slight strange looking steam locomotive which had low-profile domes, scrunized cab roof (almost could rub hat onto it), and some narrow valves .. turns out it was a for-uk locomotive that never got shipped out post-1945!
21:08<drac_boy>the comparison of it sitting next to a "normal" usa locomotive of same mechanical type is a bit funny photo wise
21:09<sim-al2>Oh wow: http://www.american-rails.com/images/CSSSBLJsStreetMC.jpg
21:09<drac_boy>it was a tender not tank locomotive mind you
21:09<drac_boy>hey ... that car looks like nothing to the locomotive, the two of these better watch out for each others :P
21:12<sim-al2>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J092L-aaay8
21:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 mind you I have liked CSS/SS emu's even the newer nippon ones. and for the record did you know that the classic CSS orange ones had been extended in the middle to increase their capacity during the war as an economical low-cost measure? :)
21:15<drac_boy>went from like 50-60 something seats to 80 seating plus climate control I think was added at the time (or was that factory anyway..)
21:16<sim-al2>They had some interesting locomotives too: http://www.monon.monon.org/ssscans02/08-17SouthShore700series01.jpg
21:16<drac_boy>"interesting"? umm you wait right there I will show you something very uncommon :P
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21:24<drac_boy>bit dark photo but here http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0401/cns459a.jpg thats actually basically a (B+B)-(B+B) if I recall the uic system right .. kinda interesting heavy freight locomotive that looks a bit light on weight at same time nevertheless
21:25<drac_boy>I pretty much imagine a C-C arrangement wouldn't be enough (or tracks were too curved)
21:25<sim-al2>wow
21:25<drac_boy>and yep for being shoreline it had to share trolleypoles with the frequent commuter emus :)
21:25<sim-al2>The dual trolley poles is an interesting touch...
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21:26<drac_boy>sim-a12 yeah its kinda an interesting locomotive where you can see two B trucks mounted to a chassis which is then attached to ANOTHER chassis :)
21:26<sim-al2>As is the partially exposed equipment next to the cab
21:26<drac_boy>haha looks like someone actually removed the side panels..theres still a roof panel over it
21:26<drac_boy>:)
21:27<sim-al2>Yeah, I don't think it will last long exposed like that...
21:28<sim-al2>Apparently the South Shore had one that was equipped with third rail shoes, so it could operate on all three interurban systems in Chicago
21:28<drac_boy>sim-a12 btw the same railroad also had something else you might like one moment...
21:29<drac_boy>these were called Pug or something to that effect because of how they always seem to run bunched together heads-to-heads https://thetrolleydodger.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/img255-tif.jpg?w=665&h=454
21:30<drac_boy>and a different centercab design that was a electric-battery hybrid for non-wire operations around yard or light industrial sections http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0200/cns456b.jpg
21:30<drac_boy>the batteries pretty much sat where the walkways otherwise could had gone
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21:31<sim-al2>The first one is a pretty common steeple-cab design that could be found on many interurbans
21:32<drac_boy>sim-a12 problem is the first one only has one single end .. the cab was located on back just like on an SW1200
21:32<sim-al2>Oh
21:33<sim-al2>There seems to have been a number of dual or tri power locomotives during the late 20's/early 30's, since diesel engines were just starting to appear on railroads
21:33<sim-al2>Using batteries to reach the sidings of course
21:33<drac_boy>and btw about 3rd rail .. the "famous" Electroliner was dual trolleypole/3rd for same reason .. overhead in the open but 3rd through chicago pieces
21:34<drac_boy>that was one interesting little trainset thats thankfully still preserved :)
21:35<sim-al2>Quite a few interurbans were like that, using 3rd rail or a high voltage AC in the outer areas, and low voltage (600VDC) in urban areas
21:35<drac_boy>the reason the electroliner had rather short cars compared to mainline ones was obviously due to the city-kind sharp curves it had to operate over on frequently
21:35<sim-al2>I found a brochure from Westinghouse from about 1910 or so, that has quite a bit of detail
21:36<drac_boy>talk about doing eg 40kph around a curb-tight curve on street level one minute then doing 100kph on the open straightways with no roads to worry about :)
21:36<sim-al2>Yeah, it had to fit on lines that eventually became the subway lines
21:36<sim-al2>*some lines
21:38<Eddi|zuHause><drac_boy> bit dark photo but here http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0401/cns459a.jpg thats actually basically a (B+B)-(B+B) if I recall the uic system right <-- almost... "+" would mean it could be separated at that point
21:39<drac_boy>funny re you mention about dual/tri .. I still recall a magazine photo that was titled "nothing new under the sun" . guess what it was? said that the idea of hybird power was nothing new look at this old GE-built little steeplecab that had batteries in one end and a genset in other end
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>also, the soviets planned a bigger version of the M92 with such a wheel arrangement
21:39<drac_boy>it was dated like 1910's or 1920's roughly
21:40<drac_boy>eddi..ah good point, I'm not always used to certain details of the UIC system
21:41<drac_boy>sim-a12 the LIRR railroad even did have some hybrid locomotive a long time ago too
21:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, i might be wrong
21:47<drac_boy>oh and I believe SBB not too recently ordered a small 2-axle shunter that was not surprisingly a diesel engine (plus the electric transformer as well) under the hood and pantograph on the roof. pretty much looked like a 40-50kph max locomotive to me
21:48<drac_boy>ah, semi-centercab but here still http://www.railwaygazette.com/uploads/pics/tn_ch-sbbcargo-eem923-electrodiesel-shunter-stadler.jpg
21:49<sim-al2>It's actually 100km/h max
21:50<drac_boy>oh, well the small rating and its duty had me thinking that at first before..the article didn't say a lot as they were only just starting to ship them at the time
21:51<sim-al2>It's a Stadler, they also introduced a similar pure-electric design (although less powerful)
21:51<sim-al2>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB_Eem_923
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>if they are "starting to ship", the design speed has been known for very long already
21:52<drac_boy>there is always the Gem 4/4, a classic thats still around :)
21:53<sim-al2>That's a RhB locomotive, but yes they are very cool
21:55<drac_boy>btw its somewhat vintage but if you want dual power in east part of usa, how about the emd FL9 which had its unusual B'A1A' arrangement due to the additional transformer/boiler combo weight near rear end
21:55<sim-al2>No transformer, those need AC current to do anything
21:55<drac_boy>the 3rd rail eventually was never used due to lack of deffered maintenance and diesel power often ran through the Grand Terminal even although they were not supposed to
21:55<sim-al2>It was just that the boiler put it over the max axle weight limit for the Park Avenue viaduct
21:56<sim-al2>*for B-B
21:56<sim-al2>Yeah, the New Haven and the Penn Central were not known for good maintenance
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's what happens when you leave maintenance up to capitalists...
21:59<sim-al2>It was the 70's, the highways allowed truck companies (who were being deregulated) to destroy the railroads spectacularly
21:59<sim-al2>Nevermind that Nixon planned on Amtrak being the company that would wind down passenger service completely...
22:00<drac_boy>anyway sorry about stopping this fun chat short but I'm going to bed already..maybe if you two are still around tomorrow for some more random real rail topics? :)
22:00<sim-al2>Sure, night
22:00<drac_boy>yeah .. a "for profit" amtrak that still is a bit difficult to do :-s
22:00<drac_boy>have fun till next time anyway :)
22:00<drac_boy>bye now :p
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22:02<sim-al2>Of course the New Haven brought it on themselves anyway, they planned to remove their electrification and replace diesels, but then ended up with diesels burning suddenly rather expensive fuel and a electrification system that would never be shutdown anyway...
22:05<Eddi|zuHause>oh yeah the golden 70s... where clean diesel was the future over the dirty electric
22:05<sim-al2>Even the politicans were smoking something then
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>fuck trams, use busses!
22:06<sim-al2>Yup, that;s totally worked out...
22:06*sim-al2 looks at city bus schedule
22:06<sim-al2>Oh wait
22:12<sim-al2>But seriously, a city of 600,000 + people, and transit is not even on the political radar
22:12<sim-al2>They somehow find bus routes to keep cutting
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>sure, with every little-used line you cut, you reduce another line from medium to little use
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>which you then again can cut
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's a nice vicious cycle
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22:14<Eddi|zuHause>but "capitalism" still works as long as you cut faster than the income drops
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22:21<sim-al2>Yeah, but in this case it's been city-owned forever. They've had plans to built a light rail line (fancy tram) to the airport for 20+ years, but I don't see how that could happen
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22:22<sim-al2>Birmingham, Alabama, had been cutting so hard they've actually got the Department of Justice on them, since the cuts affect inner city minorities quite badly
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22:37<Eddi|zuHause>being city-owned does not mean it's not run by capitalists
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