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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-18

---Logopened Thu Feb 18 00:00:05 2016
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03:55<Wolf01>o/
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08:34<argoneus>good morning
08:34<argoneus>train friends
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12:02<qwebirc26667>i just accidently started an ascii verison of openttd in a ssh'd terminal, does anyone know how to exit it? it's vim all over again :P
12:05<@Alberth>accii version of openttd?
12:06<@Alberth>just ^C will work if you started it from the command line
12:06<@Alberth>another option is to suspend the job, and then kill it
12:07<@Alberth>a third option is to log in again with another terminal and kill the process from there
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12:11<qwebirc26667>had to kill it from a 2nd terminal, cheers
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12:14<andythenorth>o/
12:14<andythenorth>African Horse
12:15<@Alberth>steamy?
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12:21<andythenorth>needs a roster name
12:27<@Alberth>Steam Toys :p
12:28<@Alberth>s/:FIRS/:EVERYTHING/ ?
12:29<@Alberth>Desert country
12:29<@Alberth>Mineral country
12:31<@Alberth>/me confuses economies with rosters :(
12:32<andythenorth>ha :)
12:32<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpG9EQYMnk
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12:49<@Alberth>hoi
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12:53<frosch123>lo
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13:02*andythenorth biab
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27509 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2016-02-18 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian: 60 changes by BAJansen
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14:10<Wolf01>do trains in US travel both sides on double tracks as they want? I'm watching a video and the train is one time on the left track, one time in the right track... one time there are 2 trains going in the same direction in both tracks
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about america, but in germany that is possible if the track/signalling is specifically prepared for it
14:18<frosch123>doesn't it also depend on speed and distance between the tracks?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>that may influence whether trains may meet in a tunnel
14:20<frosch123>vehicles cannot drive fast too close to each other
14:20<frosch123>the air movement pulls them close to each other
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>but that also applies to trains going in different direction
14:21<frosch123>as far as i know that pulls them away from each other
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>probably even more so, as the relative speed difference counts
14:22<V453000>trains suck, everybody hates trains anyway
14:22<V453000>ships is where stuff is at
14:28<andythenorth>not
14:31<V453000>sup andy, wat new
14:32<andythenorth>inventing horse
14:32<andythenorth>new roster
14:33<V453000>xd
14:33<V453000>nice
14:33<V453000>tranez
14:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: lots of US track is signalled bi-directional
14:34<andythenorth>or not signalled at all, but uses centralised control / warrants / track authority
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14:34<andythenorth>or the video might be showing you passing loops
14:34<V453000>andythenorth: what new horse ideas?
14:34<andythenorth>no gameplay ideas, just Africa-ish trains
14:35<andythenorth>to go with Africa-ish FIRS
14:35<V453000>=[
14:40<V453000> /me would prefer gameplay ideas over negro technologyez :P
14:42<andythenorth>don’t have any
14:42<andythenorth>just trains
14:48<@Rubidium>Wolf01: in the Netherlands it's technically possible on almost all but a few sections of track to drive against the standard driving direction, although it usually only happens in rare cases that they run against the default direction
14:49<@Rubidium>what I have seen, on a section with 5 tracks next to eachother that 3 trains were driving in the same direction almost next to eachother
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14:54<@Rubidium>in any case all double track routes in the Netherlands are effectively too busy to even allow driving the "wrong" way for a significant distance
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15:00<argoneus>can anyone here into economics?
15:00<argoneus>probably not very related to trains
15:01<argoneus>I'm wondering how fiat money like gbp or dollar initially got their value
15:01<argoneus>seems like I have to get a degree just to understand this
15:02<frosch123>how did bread initially get a price?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the value, of course, got taken out of thin air. the tricky part is making other people believe it has that value
15:05<argoneus>I just find it hard to believe that people went
15:06<argoneus>"well we have this british pound and you can buy more for it than with 1 dollar"
15:06<argoneus>and americans just went "ok nice"
15:06<argoneus>frosch123: I have no idea
15:06<argoneus>haggling probably
15:06<argoneus>whoever was selling it gave it a value
15:07<ckraniak>I believe the general idea is that the availability of currency X sets its value
15:07<ckraniak>But I'm not an economist
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: if you mean historically, the value of a coin was mostly driven by its silver/gold content
15:08<frosch123>argoneus: isn't it weird that water costs about 2€ per m³ in europe, while it is way more expensive in israel?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>if you made a bigger or purer coin, it was worth more
15:08<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's true
15:08<frosch123>why don't you just buy water in europe and sell it in israel?
15:08<argoneus>there's no gold standard anymore
15:08<argoneus>frosch123: don't people do that though?
15:08<argoneus>exporting stuff they already produce just to buy it cheaper from foreign countries
15:08<argoneus>and make a profit
15:09<frosch123>yeah, but what do you do with all she shekels?
15:09<frosch123>can you buy water here for shekels?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: if you mean more modern, there were some conferences about "this is the exchange rate that we want, we're tweaking wheels here or there to keep it that way"
15:09<argoneus>oh, like that
15:10<argoneus>frosch123: if you exchange them back
15:10<argoneus>you can still make a profit though
15:10<argoneus>or a loss
15:11<argoneus>you never break even
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: for example the swiss national bank had an expensive program to keep the EUR:SFR rate within certain limits
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: they cancelled that suddenly about a year ago, which made the rate immediately explode
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: in modern times, exchange rates are mostly defined by more people buying or selling
15:13<andythenorth>ha ha
15:13<andythenorth>money
15:14<andythenorth>one of the most awesome collective delusions
15:14<andythenorth>and it works too
15:14<argoneus>how does something like bitcoins get its value then?
15:14<argoneus>one day you can barelly buy a pizza with it
15:14<argoneus>and suddenly you can buy a car
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: by people buying or selling them.
15:14<argoneus>so if demand for bitcoins spikes
15:14<argoneus>then their price spikes too?
15:15<andythenorth>notionally a bitcoin was supposed to be worth at least the computing cost of mining it
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: whenever there is viral news about bitcoin, the price goes through the roof because loads of people buy it
15:15<argoneus>..hold on
15:15<argoneus>so if I was some super rich oil sheikh
15:15<argoneus>what stops me from buying tons of bitcoins at X value
15:15<argoneus>and when it spikes sell them for X+Y
15:15<argoneus>?
15:15<argoneus>like, create my own demand
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>nothing? that's how you get insanely rich or insanely poor at the stock market
15:16<argoneus>oh, right
15:16<argoneus>it's this thing called investing
15:16<andythenorth>that’s how it works
15:16<frosch123>no, it's called speculation
15:16<frosch123>investment is, if you think it makes money on its own
15:16<argoneus>isn't speculation a bit different?
15:16<frosch123>speculation is, if you think you can sell it later for a better price
15:16<argoneus>I buy some stocks expecting them to spike
15:17<argoneus>I don't make them spike myself by creating absurd demand from day to day
15:17<argoneus>or do I still have it wrong
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>no, investment is if you buy stocks expecting them to naturally grow
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>speculation is when you buy stocks expecting them to fluctuate
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: at usual stock markets, there are measures in place to prevent hugely spiking values to be taken off trades
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>errr
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>too many negatives
15:18<andythenorth>what is speculative investment?
15:18<andythenorth>o_O
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>the key difference is that the investment part gets pumped back into "the economy", whereas the speculative part is purely circulating within this stock bubble
15:21<argoneus>this is too complex for me
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>there was this stock market in chicago for agriculture goods
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and at some point they split apart the trading between people who were actually trying to buy cargo, and the people who just wanted to speculate
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>and the speculating part was orders of magnitude higher volume
15:23<argoneus>lol
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15:25<andythenorth>pork belly futures
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16:37<supermop>board of trade
16:37<supermop>it's a commodities market
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17:42<Wolf01>'night
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18:47<drac_boy>hi
18:49<drac_boy>got a bit unusual question for you ... even although it wouldn't do much difference to a grf locomotive I'm still curious if blowing nitrogen dioxide instead of oxygen into a firebox would even result in any noticeable difference or not much?
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19:02<sim-al2>I think that would just displace oxygen, without doing much else
19:05<drac_boy>thanks, and how're you doing anyhow?
19:05<sim-al2>I'm good
19:06<sim-al2>Nitrogen dioxide is really nasty btw, it does a lot of damage to the lungs even in low doses
19:07<drac_boy>heh well the real reason i asked was because of using off-gassing from one source to power another (or in this case 'another' being firebox atmosphere) but probably pointless at this viewpoint now :)
19:08<drac_boy><is doing ok after a long week earlier on, hoping to work on some more papers and the so from tonight to the weekend
19:11<sim-al2>Now nitrous oxide is the stuff used in racing, and it does help deliver some more oxygen during combustion, but production is much less than the nitrogen oxides resulting from internal combustion
19:16<drac_boy>at least in theory (I think, I'm no skilled into this) a stationary large turbine could probably easily auger a small 'secondary' steam turbine what with the exhaust's temperature being a water-heating exchange source
19:21<sim-al2>I think systems like that are already in used in some large power plants and ships
19:22<drac_boy>wouldn't surprise me then in that case
19:22<sim-al2>There certainly were a number of aircraft pistion engines with power-recovery turbines, which recovered energy from the exhaust flow and returned it directly to the crankshaft
19:23<drac_boy>oh btw while we're on turbines, what do you think of this thing at first look? http://www.broadway-limited.com/images/products/detail/SS021e.png :)
19:23<sim-al2>It helped increase the fuel efficency of faster, higher-flying pressurized piston-liners, at the expense of mechanical complexity
19:23<sim-al2>Mmm, steam turbine
19:23<drac_boy>didn't think of it being on planes but I can see why they actually tried it tho
19:24<sim-al2>Direct-drive turbine too, unfortunatly leads to rather low slow-speed efficency
19:24<drac_boy>mind you "expense of mechanical complexity" actually sometimes sums up the very small number of 3-cylinder locomotives in usa, mechanics somewhat hated the center cranks/etc
19:24<drac_boy>at least a few of these not surprisingly led a rather good life of 10+ years of express/freight services
19:24<Supercheese>hot dang that coupling rod is enormous
19:26<drac_boy>one particular small fleet built by alco as I recall...when the emd F units replaced them on mainline they found a nice new home for a while working hump yards with switcher footboards fitted (they slipped less at low speed shoving the long cuts over for one thing)
19:26<sim-al2>The problem with the aircraft engines was that turbines required far less inspection, and so once the more efficent turbo-fans arrived, all piston liners and even the turboprops were doomed
19:26<sim-al2>*turbine engine
19:26<drac_boy>and sim-a12 you're right about low efficency .. where a big ship can have multi-speed turbines aboard, a locomotive only has space for one or two turbine gears so it was always a "big compromise" all the time
19:27<drac_boy>the prr S2 in that case was geared to whip 100mph express trains
19:27<sim-al2>I think it had light-weight rods though
19:29<drac_boy>I imagine the S2 never got bumped down to local trains due to questionable fuel consumptions ... compared to the T1 (a conventional duplex-drive layout) which was supposed to be built only for express trains but only a short time later got knocked down to slow local trains which didn't help its eventual full scrappages
19:29<sim-al2>Local trains would never get something so nice, I'm sure the PRR had clapped out 4-6-0s for that until the end
19:30<drac_boy>sim-a12 the funny thing is that a lot of the local trains on PRR were often happy with diesel-bumped K* units which made more sense for the light consist weight at low speeds
19:30<sim-al2>Oh, older pacific makes sense too
19:31<drac_boy>I know some photos that shows a K4 with just 1 to 3 heavyweight coaches on its tail and with the 40mph or so speed the fireman never really noticed much work
19:32<drac_boy>in my opinion the K4 was a rather good example of "just design it for best efficency and forget silly bells and whistles!" line of thinking
19:32<sim-al2>I suppose the PRR could get away with that because the big city commuter trains were mostly electrified
19:33<drac_boy>one funny little tidbit related to that..when france ordered some of their early mallet locomotives they actually bought it from usa instead as to avoid the usual french way of always wanting to complicate things with strange contracptions
19:33<sim-al2>I like that this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/PRR-K4s-BuildersPhoto.jpg and this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/PRR_K4s_3768.jpg are part of the same class
19:34<sim-al2>Oh wow: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/PRR_K4s_streamlined.jpg
19:38<Supercheese>Progress :)
19:38<sim-al2>The American answer to the Crocidiles of Europe: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/PRR_L5_electric_locomotive.jpg
19:39<drac_boy>sim-a12 another thing PRR somewhat made 'famous' with was the high-wheeling E6's .. once again it was just a simple straight 4-4-2 layout but heh .. they sure could move a bunch of coaches really fast
19:39<drac_boy>naturally the K4 replaced them due to terrain and/or even-heavier (double E6's was a bit expensive naturally) trains
19:40<drac_boy>doesn't help that a single E6 made itself famous for running too fast with a special consist :)
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19:41<drac_boy>heh that L5 somewhat looks a bit funny .. but probably can see why it was built :)
19:45<drac_boy>of course uk did have their own atlantics too, only in a few instances they were a bit less sure-footed on hilly routes that was then worked by 3-axle powers instead
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20:13<supermop>i guess i should 'blind' my path signals with block signals just ahead of junctions where i dont want a conflicting move to be reserved way in advance
20:20<drac_boy>:)
20:29<drac_boy>anyway going upstairs soon so you two have fun tonight one way or another :)
20:29<drac_boy>oh and you too mr.bigcheese heh ;)
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22:39<Flygon>Oh wow
22:39<Flygon>Those K4 photos from sim-al2
22:39<Flygon>I gotta rummage some old VR (Victoria) photos
22:39<Flygon>Basically, there was an A2-class series locomotive, originating from the late 1890s, and lasted 60-70 years...
22:39<Flygon>They were virtually unrecognizable by retirement
22:40<Flygon>They got the shit upgraded out of them
22:42<Flygon>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/a2steam/a2_75-.jpg As built (around 1900 something)
22:43<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/A2-995.jpg By retirement
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22:43<Flygon>It even LOOKS remarkably more modern, despite being classed as the same loco type :D
22:43<Flygon>wba sim-al2
22:44<sim-al2>hi
22:45<sim-al2>Yeah, they started streamlining everything, but it's much harder to maintain a locomotive with all that stuff to remove and put back every time
22:46*Flygon nod
22:46<Flygon>Was comparing a loco we designed and built in the 1890s (Victoria, Australia), and what it ended up as by the 1960s
22:46<Flygon><Flygon> http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/a2steam/a2_75-.jpg As built (around 1900 something)
22:46<Flygon><Flygon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/A2-995.jpg By retirement
22:47<sim-al2>Wow those are some big smoke deflectors
22:47<Flygon>I promise we weren't compensating for something
22:47<Flygon>We had the H-Class to do that for us
22:48<sim-al2>Cylinders are rather different too
22:48<Flygon>Yepyep
22:48<Flygon>It's amazing how much a single machine can evolve
22:48<sim-al2>So these are different batches, correct?
22:49<Flygon>I mean, they're clearly not the exact same loco (diff numbers), but they would've gone through the same upgrades
22:49<Flygon>iirc, most of the A2s were built from the 1890s to around 1910
22:49<Flygon>And then got whacked on upgrades that worked on newer locomotives
22:49<sim-al2>Ah ok, I know there's been a few cases where designs are in production so long that the newer ones replace/displace the older ones
22:50*Flygon nod
22:50<Flygon>Yeah, here, I think the idea was "Make a new design based off an old design, and also pass on the upgrades that worked on the new design to the old design
22:51<Flygon>Though, we did have a few long runners that kept being manufactured for so long as to actually have different designs depending on the year
22:51<Flygon>The K-Class, specifically, comes to mind (though, older ones got upgraded to the same spec)
22:52<Flygon>http://www.australiansteam.com/vic/K160c3.jpg Perhaps unsurprisingly, they looked almost exactly like the A2 by the end of their own run
22:53<sim-al2>wow, talk about convergant designs
22:55<sim-al2>I'm detecting a pattern here... : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/J515atVGR.jpg
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22:58<Flygon>Hahaha, yes :D
22:58<Flygon>In fact
22:58<Flygon>The J-Class is basically a K-Class
22:58<Flygon>But gauge convertable... and with a few other minor upgrades
22:58<Flygon>The VR were very very conservative designers
22:58<sim-al2>Oh, that explains a lot
22:59<sim-al2>Those smoke deflectors look very European though
22:59<Flygon>Their most non-conservative designs that come to mind would be the S-Class and the H-Class
22:59<Flygon>Yeah, we stole the idea from the Germans
22:59<Flygon>No other Australian railway (apart from SAR... long story there)
22:59<Flygon>Er, no other Aussie railway really used them
23:00<Flygon>New South Welsh stuff always looked distinctly more British. VR took more insight from the Germans and Americans.
23:00<sim-al2>It seems most American locomotives lacked them, apart from experiments, but many continental Europe types, especailly anything that might ever haul passengers had them
23:02*Flygon nd
23:02<Flygon>nod*
23:02<Flygon>Please excuse the minor delays
23:02<Flygon>Was making lunch x.x
23:03<sim-al2>It looks like the S-class lacked them, at least in the wikipedia pictures
23:03<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/The_Spirit_of_Progress_press_launch_with_locomotive_S302_Edward_Henty_at_Spencer_Street_Station,_November_17,_1937.jpg I suspect the German influence leaked into how Dieselpunky the S-Class Streamliner is xP
23:04<sim-al2>Yeah no kidding
23:04<Flygon>Uuh, naked S-Class. I forgot if the shell-less S-Class had deflectors
23:04<Flygon>Odd
23:04<Flygon>Yeah, you're right. They didn't have smoke deflectors
23:05<Flygon>They must've relied on the Streamliner setup to do all the work. They never ran without the shell unless they did freight (obviously, not a good task for a fast express loco... but, erm. Certain difficulties happened in the 40s x.x)
23:05<sim-al2>I can't but notice how the recycling of the class names seems sometimes natural, and sometimes very odd
23:06<Flygon>Hahaha, oh man
23:06<Flygon>I understand
23:06<Flygon>It's annoying, too, when some were recycled very close to eachother
23:06<Flygon>Or they recycled the same TYPE of loco
23:06<sim-al2>H-class vs H-class, lol
23:06<Flygon>(eg. R-Class Steam Loco becomes... R-Class Steam Loco. Instead of H Steam to H Diesel)
23:06<Flygon>Heheh...
23:07<Flygon>The H-Class Diesel is just a T but with more weight
23:07<Flygon>Only really suppose to shunt
23:07<Flygon>Heh... the T-Class locomotive, itself, is just a ridiculously long runner
23:07<sim-al2>Yeah, I guess it reallys stands for "Heavy", but the S-class diesel was used on the same trains as the steamer...
23:07<Flygon>They've been running for almost 65 years, continuously... and have the redesigns to suit
23:08<Flygon>The S-Class Diesel is... a bit of a fiasco
23:08<Flygon>They're neat, but they're really underpowered
23:08<Flygon>And lack the top speed...
23:08<Flygon>And the fact that their introduction 100% killed off ALL the S-Class Steamers left a lot of people bitter
23:08<sim-al2>1957 though, there wasn't a lot of options for more power
23:08<Flygon>(yes, the steamers got scrapped. It's a miracle we kept the sole H-Class)
23:09<Flygon>Well, the issue is more... they didn't really leave much room for adding additional power without breaking the 'intended' streamliner setup
23:09<Flygon>No slug units
23:09<sim-al2>The SD24 with 2400hp wasn't introduced until mid-1958
23:10<sim-al2>I really like the B-class for whatever reason, it looks very nice
23:10<Flygon>This isn't to say the S-Class and derivatives (the B, A, and X come to mind. The A still in active usage by V/Line, VR's successor) haven't had a fantastic service life
23:10<Flygon>They're just... not as spectacular
23:11<sim-al2>Isn't the last A in VR service just a standby now? The N's seem to have replaced them completely
23:11<sim-al2>SD24 for reference: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Burlington504.JPG
23:11<Flygon>Well
23:11<Flygon>They're technically 'just' standby
23:11<sim-al2>The early T-class is basically a standard EMD G8 export, the later ones however are very different...
23:12<Flygon>The reality is, V/Line is so ridiculously stretched for resouces
23:12<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/New_VLine_Livery_A66.JPG That A66 has had more retirements than George Jetson
23:12<sim-al2>Oh yeah, V/Lines passenger coaches seem very... haphazard
23:12<Flygon>Some of their most recent work has involved towing VLocity DMUs due to the recent wheel wear and LX issues... which're...
23:12<Flygon>Complicated issues.
23:13<Flygon>In part because suspected corruption by Metro (a separate rail operator)
23:14<Flygon>https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5175/5497441683_b364b5cdc0_b.jpg Heavy Harry (aka. the H-Class Steamer), btw. One of the few vehicles you MUST call a him xP
23:15<Flygon>They... had a fun time fitting it into the loading gauge. And it was around 24 tonnes an axle, iirc. Which in the 1930s, was... erm, a very tough ask for a lot of VR's lines.
23:16<sim-al2>Heck, the Europeans today often don't allow 24 tonne axle weights
23:16<Flygon>Still, it was Australia's most powerful (non-articulated) loco til 1995 :D
23:17<Flygon>Yeah, a lot of lines here still don't handle over 21 tonnes regulary
23:17<sim-al2>Didn't Connex get kicked off the suburban lines for having a lot of internal problems?
23:17<Flygon>I suspect you could get away with running Harry for the occassional tour, tho. If anyone had the $$$ to get him working
23:18<Flygon>I just want him to get running so him and a VLocity can have a race :D:D
23:18<Flygon>Connex... oh man
23:18<Flygon>The French company so abysmal, even the French hate them
23:18<Flygon>Yeah, Connex were just... bad
23:18<sim-al2>lol that's a great sign :D
23:19<Flygon>But their replacement (Metro), is just... well
23:19<Flygon>Lemme dig up a few reports
23:19<Flygon>But they're LONG reads, so best save them for future reading
23:19<Flygon>https://mtmmemes.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/parliamentary-inquiry-the-lost-submissions-part-1/
23:20<Flygon>https://mtmmemes.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/parliamentary-inquiry-the-lost-submissions-part-2/
23:20<Flygon>https://mtmmemes.wordpress.com/2016/02/15/parliamentary-inquiry-the-lost-submissions-part-3/
23:20<Flygon>This is, to use the most eloquent language I can use to describe how incredibly stupid/bad this situation is with Metro atm
23:20<Flygon>A complete shitstorm
23:21<Flygon>The articles show quite clearly what can happen when railway corruption and greed take priority over basic safety
23:21<Flygon>It's a miracle we haven't had a Granville yet
23:21<sim-al2>>This may result in shorter trains
23:21<sim-al2>(eg, 3 car v’locity) not being detected.
23:21<Flygon>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_rail_disaster aka. the reason Sydney has the country's best suburban network
23:21<sim-al2>!!!!!!
23:22<Flygon>Metro's maintainence on LX equipment is baaad
23:22<Flygon>A fair chunk dates back to the 50s-70s
23:22<Flygon>A lot of other rail equipment (including LX, probably) dates back to the 1930s
23:23<Flygon>Until recently, we also had a fair few pre-1900s mechanical interlocks being used, too
23:23<Flygon>It sounds like a joke from The Simpsons...
23:24<Flygon>But it's all too real
23:24<sim-al2>So the operating company is also responsible for maintenance? I thought the tracks would be state-owned too
23:25<Flygon>They are
23:25<Flygon>Maintainence has also been leased out
23:25<Flygon>The idea is that we don't have to pay for track they're using
23:25<Flygon>The reality is that they're letting the track turn to shit
23:25<Flygon>We've come a long way down since the 20s-40s VR glory days
23:26<sim-al2>I mean, those statements are really alarming. Not being able to detect a three-car train is ludicrious
23:26<Flygon>(even if the 40s meant VR stock was getting the hell flogged out of it...)
23:26<Flygon>Aye :(
23:27<Flygon>(tho, 40s war freight did also mean that Heavy Harry pulled ludicriously heavy amounts of freight, in part, because the workers wanted to see just WHAT it could do. IIRC, it hauled around 3x it's intended maximum tonnage without really sweating a bit... I'd need to grab the actual numbers, though)
23:28<sim-al2>TBH, I don't really understand the big move towards operating companies. We have some here too, where the transit agency still owns everything, but the equipment is operated by some company
23:29<Flygon>Ehhh...
23:29<Flygon>Here, at least
23:29<Flygon>It's a political thing
23:29<Flygon>IF something goes wrong, the Government blames the private company
23:29<Flygon>And then doesn't fix the issue
23:30<Flygon>Compared to, if, say, a Government owned company stuffs up
23:30<Flygon>And the party suddenly risks losing the next election
23:30<Flygon>That's the theory
23:30<Flygon>In reality, the public isn't that stupid.
23:30<sim-al2>The Melbourne system seems to be rather important to regional transport though, something going bad could have dire consequences
23:31<Flygon>It would. Hence my references to Granville. :(
23:31<Flygon>The VLocity wheel wear incidents have come close to causing an incident to happen @ over 150km/h...
23:31<Flygon>But it's not V/Line I worry about, so much as Metro
23:32<Flygon>V/Line at least give enough of a damn to pull over half their fleet out for the sake of safety
23:32<Flygon>Metro keeps having derailments and what must be the divine intervention of god preventing a head-on collision
23:32<Flygon>Now, I'm not a religious man. But the fact we haven't had a head-on yet is statistically baffling/amazing.
23:34<Flygon>But, yeah
23:34<Flygon>We're heading to the same situation as the UK's current problems with franchising out rail
23:34<Flygon>And, the kicker is?
23:34<Flygon>It was cheaper to just pay a supposedly 'bloated' Gov't owned corporation to manage the railways
23:37<Flygon>But, yeah
23:37<Flygon>V/Line's own network maintainence is far better...
23:37<Flygon>The wheel wear, is... a particular case, though
23:38<Flygon>tl;dr: Sharp curves on new part of the network. Most trains no longer using Metro's network. V/Line's INCREDIBLY averse to using grease pots to alleviate sharp curve wear, and since the trains no longer pick up grease from Metro grease pots?...
23:41<sim-al2>Hmm, why wouldn't they use lubricators?
23:41<Flygon>$$$
23:41<Flygon>V/Line's budget consists of empty air
23:42<sim-al2>That seems rather backwards, considering how much wear will be inflicted over time
23:42<Flygon>So their foremost concern is keeping the VLocity DMUs operating as well as possible
23:42<Flygon>(they're some of the most complicated DMUs on Earth... and some of the most overpowered)
23:42<sim-al2>Not to mention the noise
23:42<Flygon>Well, the prevailing theory is that it's INTENTIONAL on the Government's behalf
23:42<Flygon>So they can have an excuse to flog V/Line to Metro
23:43<Flygon>A lot of the public suspects there's a lot of corruption and bribery going on
23:43<sim-al2>Well, overpowered is relative, there's some out there that are more powerful, but that's because they are heavier and/or pull trailers
23:43<Flygon>And not the 'good' sort of Japanese bribary >_>
23:44<Flygon>Well, keeping in mind, the VLos are specced to accelerate @ 0.9m/s/s. And are likely written as 'weaker' than they can actually go, on even that respect
23:44<Flygon>But, on paper alone, they actually accerate faster than a lot of suburban EMUs @_@
23:44<Flygon>And, given some alleged tests have pegged them going 220-230km/h...
23:45<sim-al2>Lots of the new European designs try for 1m/s^2, but yeah, most older designs would love to hit that
23:45<Flygon>(the transmission, however, is only built for 200. And I can't fully confirm if the tests for post-200 did actually happen or not)
23:45<Flygon>DMUs? Or in general?
23:45<Flygon>I do ask, given EU is very very electrified
23:45<sim-al2>Well, if it's actually rated for 200km/h, they'll probably do overspeed tests to ensure safety margin
23:46<sim-al2>Here in the US, one of the testing requirements is running at 10% above top speed without any problems
23:46<Flygon>Yep. That collorates well with the 220-230 speeds reported
23:46<sim-al2>Que Dash 9s rolling around the Colorado test track at 90mph
23:46<sim-al2>(supposedly)
23:46<Flygon>(they, in service, only hit 160km/h officially. In reality, they are allowed to hit 177km/h)
23:47<Flygon>Ooooh, that Dash 9
23:47<sim-al2>Dat overspeed margin
23:47<Flygon>If they could hit 90mph in service, they'd be pretty neat pax locos
23:48<Flygon>Assuming the acceleration curve allows it
23:48<sim-al2>Yeah, for whatever reason the Dash 9 is still 70mph rated, but the AC derivative is 75mph
23:48<Flygon>Darn
23:48<sim-al2>Yeah, Dash 9 is pretty damn heavy, the P40DC/P42DC are basically Dash 9's in a lighter body
23:49<Flygon>Yeah, no V/Line pax locos are really designed to go over 115km/h. The A-Class are geared for 133km/h... but they don't hit that.
23:49<sim-al2>Still heavy by say, Euro standards, but definetly nicer on the track than a heavy freight locomotive
23:49<Flygon>(which, due to us FORMERLY using miles, unsurprisingly, 115km/h rounds very neatly to 70mph)
23:49*Flygon nod
23:50<Flygon>It seems a few Dash 9s run in Australia.
23:50<Flygon>Must be for Interstate
23:50<sim-al2>The one problem with acceleration rates is that it's pretty easy to hit a high rate at low speed
23:50<sim-al2>Like, there subway cars in the 1910's capable of 2.5mph/s
23:51<sim-al2>Nevermind that they can barely reach 50mph, thanks to a lack of weakfields
23:51<Flygon>Ouch
23:51<Flygon>Here... er, the history with EMU speeds is actually a bit confusing
23:51<sim-al2>While the orginal Shinkansen, with all axles powered, was rated for like 1km/h/s
23:52<Flygon>Officially, they were all rated for 115km/h with post-50s models
23:52<sim-al2>(later 1.3, they seemed to have tuned it up during the 90's)
23:52<Flygon>The reality is, most pre-50s sets only designed for 80 tended to blow up to 120km/h due to the lack of actual speed recorders
23:52<Flygon>I... think. Take it with a grain of salt.
23:53<Flygon>Yeah, the 0-Class Shinkansen accelerated very slowly
23:53<Flygon>It's very very weird seeing the 0-Class Shinkansen
23:53<Flygon>Back then, they were very state of the line
23:53<Flygon>Nowadays, VLocities practically have all the same capabilities (Bar being a fair bit noiser). And they're seen as ordinary Interurbans.
23:54<Flygon>And accelerate far faster...
23:54<Flygon>It's hard to believe
23:55<Flygon>It does feel kind of weird to me
23:55<Flygon>Seeing how 'slow' overseas urban EMUs are
23:55<Flygon>For us, 115km/h on a suburban train is a bit slow. We're used to going 160km/h on Diesels :D
23:55<Flygon>But... your networks evolved differently.
23:55<sim-al2>Most of the time, the "slow" ones are used on lines where the stations are very close together
23:55<Flygon>Namely, tighter stations spacing
23:56<Flygon>Yeah, exactly
23:56<Flygon>Whereas, for us, the 'subway' role is filled in by the Trams
23:56<sim-al2>They NYC subway probably has very short station distances compared to even other subway systems
23:56<Flygon>Which, if you compare various specifications... operate in almost the exact same way as- well, yeah, exactly
23:56<Flygon>Like the NYC subway
23:57<sim-al2>Trams used to be pretty common in the big cities around the 1900's, but either they were replaced with elevated or subway systems, or doomed to fade away
23:58<sim-al2>Really, I think only Boston and Chicago followed the route of the heavy-duty tram systems found in Europe, and even then the Chicago systems became electric commuter railorads
23:59<Flygon>Mmm
23:59<sim-al2>The Boston Green Line seems the closest to what is done with the city trams in the German countries, it even has subway sections downtown
23:59<Flygon>Yeah, Chicago developed a lot like Melbourne with regards to Trams
23:59<Flygon>A LOT of Cablecar lines pre-1910s, even on flat land, because electric traction hadn't caught up
---Logclosed Fri Feb 19 00:00:04 2016