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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-19

---Logopened Fri Feb 19 00:00:04 2016
---Daychanged Fri Feb 19 2016
00:00<Flygon>And ludicrously huge networks in the progress
00:00<Flygon>Yeah, no Tramlines here are subway
00:00<Flygon>It's all surface
00:01<sim-al2>Oh hey, looks like Melborne stole the PCC too
00:01<Flygon> An old one, and... old livery
00:01<Flygon>But it shows the design
00:01<Flygon>Well, not so much stole
00:02<Flygon>As much as half-licenced
00:02<Flygon>Then hybridized with a W-Class
00:02<sim-al2>It's hilarious that the world's tram systems are built on the back of an American design
00:02<Flygon>Then ran 115km/h with it
00:02<Flygon>(they did the test run somepoint in the 1950s because... well, they could)
00:02<sim-al2>Well, the Czechs did literally build many without a license
00:02<Flygon>Ahh *nodnod*
00:03<Flygon>Ye olde Soviet Union...
00:03<Flygon>Still, they invented 80s video game music in the 30s xP
00:03<sim-al2>Of course, the streetcar systems in the US were pretty much toast by the 70's anyway, and I'm sure the companies didn't even notice the lack of Commie money
00:03<Flygon> Not kidding, either
00:04<Flygon>(they... it's complicated. This explains it)
00:04<Flygon>Yeah, the dying out in the 50s-70s.... well, sucks
00:05<Flygon>The similarity with 80s computer synths is rawly uncanny
00:06<Flygon>Right down to the waveforms chosen
00:07<sim-al2>Don't worry about the cars, my city stole a few W's back
00:07<Flygon>Technically purchased xP
00:07<sim-al2>Yeah yeah, details
00:08<sim-al2>Too bad they managed to maintain one badly enough that it caught on fire...
00:08<Flygon>A W?
00:08<sim-al2>So for like the last two years, no more trams downtown
00:08<Flygon>What did they do, run it in the wrong notch setting for too long?
00:08<Flygon>It has to be either 50%, or 100% power
00:08<Flygon>Otherwise the resistors grow VERY hot
00:08<Flygon>Dangerously so
00:09<Supercheese>Flygon: Hot dang that's some retro-retro stuff
00:09<sim-al2>Only this past spring did they get the stupid fake trolley-buses to replace them
00:09<Flygon>Supercheese: I know, right? It's a shame the Soviet Government of the time decided the programme was unprofitable
00:09<sim-al2>I don't know, they were fine when I rode on them
00:09<Flygon>The idea of a Communist Government scrapping a programme for being unprofitable is... amusing
00:10<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah, it's hard for me to tell without being there. And even then, I'm not a maintainence engineer.
00:10<Flygon>But that's the only thing I can think of that could even cause a fire in ordinary operation
00:10<Flygon>And even then, you'd need to be almost deliberately driving that way
00:11<sim-al2>I don't know, somehow they could install pantographs and enough lights to make it look like a disco ball, but not maintain it
00:11<sim-al2>No, I think it burned up while not in service
00:11<Flygon>What? Jesus.
00:11<Flygon>Sounds like they tried to do what we did her and fucked the wiring up :(
00:12<Flygon>(we installed panto and additional lighting, too)
00:12<sim-al2>Oh nevermind, it was too different cars about 5 months apart
00:13*Flygon nod
00:13<Flygon>Still, very strange
00:14<sim-al2>Oh god it's going to be FALL before the first five are finally refurbished
00:14<Flygon>Supercheese: A few other waveforms got experimented with, too
00:15<sim-al2>Wait, the webpage hasn't been updated in a year, now I'm confused...
00:15<Flygon>Again, the uncanny resemblance with 80s computer music....
00:15<sim-al2>My city's transit agency is of course, a very competent organization ... not...
00:15<Flygon>sim: I understand fully :(
00:16<Supercheese>so they have triangle & square waves... on paper. Cut out by hand. Hot damn
00:16<Supercheese>They used analog to make digital
00:16<Flygon>I don't think they specifically aimed for either. But they certainly got a very close waveform shape
00:19<Flygon>Supercheese: This has some illustrations of what they fiddled with
00:19<Flygon>Including a fair few waveforms that a computer can't actually intentionally generate
00:19<Flygon>But can be played by an optical player
00:19<sim-al2>Boston's tram subway is actually pretty old:
00:19<Flygon>(of course, the waveforms can be represented electronically)
00:20<Flygon>It does feak me out a bit how cramped US subways get x3
00:20<sim-al2>Just old, built to reduce costs, the rolling stock isn't really that big
00:21*Flygon no
00:21<sim-al2>The Washington metro system has larger dimensions
00:22<Flygon>Supercheese: The music in this is 100% artificial... this video is a pretty clear reminder that they were trying to make it sound 'organic', not computery... mainly because they, obviously, had no concept of 80s synthesizers xP
00:22<Flygon>sim-al2: *nod*
00:22<Flygon>The one made in the 70s?
00:22<sim-al2>yeah, I guess the concrete gives it away? :D
00:23<Flygon>Jup :D
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00:25<Flygon>Supercheese: I do note, though. Some 1930s American synths, themselves, were amazingly advanced. And, in theory, could play self-tracking with a modified piano reel type.
00:25<Flygon>As in, fully electronic ones.
00:29<Flygon> Seriously, this thing
00:29<Flygon>Sounds like it came from the 70s or 80s
00:29<Flygon>Not the bloody 30s
00:29<sim-al2>It's not pop music, therefore irrelevant?
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00:30<Flygon>Mm =/
00:30<Flygon>The entire thing is basically... vacuum tubes upon programmable vacuum tubes
00:31<Flygon>Everything else in the era used tonewheels, and other mechanical components (like those electronic church organs)
00:31<Flygon>But, there you have it. The two biggest lost oppertunities in music synthesis @_@
00:44<Flygon>It's a shame Novacords probably can't be built anew :(
00:49<Flygon>sim-al2: Correction, btw. Seems the A2 came out in the 1900s, not the 1890s
00:49<Flygon>The A2s, themselves, are an upgrade/update of the A's... made in the 1890s xP
00:58<sim-al2>Well good night
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01:57<Flygon>Damn, was gonna send sim-al2
01:57<Flygon>You'll never guess what class was intended to replace the other xP
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05:53<andythenorth>is cat
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06:15<V453000>how much cat
06:17<andythenorth>about 28
06:17<andythenorth>and a sub-cat
06:24<V453000>nice enough
06:31<V453000>I am making more and more details for my trains but none of them will be visible in openttd resolution :D
06:31<V453000>might want to slow down there
06:31<andythenorth>you will have to switch to trainz
06:32<V453000>will just add fancy pictures to devzone wiki/stuff
06:32<V453000>newgrf marketing XD
06:33<andythenorth>splash screen :P
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i always wanted the ability to have a picture in the purchase window
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07:44<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:53<NGC3982>train morning good friends
07:53<Wolf01>morning train friends good
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08:52<Valle>Good afternoon everyone, I'm looking for help with setting up a multiplayer server. I have done this numerous times before but have run out of ideas what the issue could be. OS version: Mac OS X 10.11.3, OpenTTD Version: JGRpp 0.10.1, Router has port forwarding set to 3979 (as set in the openttd.cfg) to the local IP of my Mac, but my game, although advertised online, does not appear in the public server list. Does anyone have an idea what els
08:53<Valle>Thanks in advance!
08:56<_dp_>does it say "advertising on master server successful" in logs?
08:56<_dp_>also check firewall
08:57<Valle>firewall permission for openttd was granted
08:59<Valle>I think I found the issue, thank you. I had forgotten about the NewGRF limit in multiplayer.
09:00<Valle>Issue resolved, thanks.
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09:45<Wolf01>fuck the system... I'm too stupid to write games :|
10:10*andythenorth has written games
10:10<andythenorth>what level of stupid are we talking? :P
10:11<Wolf01>I can't use unity even with tutorials
10:12<Wolf01>I simply don't get it
10:13<Wolf01>I just don't want to reinvent the wheel with C#
10:14<Wolf01>because it will take ages to do even a simple thing unity can already do
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12:01<Wolf01>bah trainz simulator is boring... it's sitting there downloading and caching stuff for 1 hour
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12:39<andythenorth>“Hot Narrow Horse"
12:48<andythenorth>mostly narrow gauge
12:49<andythenorth>small trains
12:49<andythenorth>like this one
12:49<Wolf01>I already saw that in one grf long time ago
12:50<@Alberth>small trains? :)
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13:09<DexDeadly>Hello, is there a guide for installing OpenTTD on a headless Linux Server 14.10LTS system to use as a dedicated server?
13:10<Milek7>tmux new
13:10<Milek7>openttd -D
13:10<Milek7>what else you would want?
13:11<+glx>and probably manual build so it doesn't require X
13:11<DexDeadly>I've never done so I was looking for a guide
13:21<_dp_>well, it's not a rocket science, at least for me openttd --help was enough for a guide xD
13:23<DexDeadly>ok than
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27510 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2016-02-19 19:45:35 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian: 55 changes by BAJansen
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14:01<Wolf01>good, I was able to load the wagons and move them to a yard... it was cool to understand that there isn't a single station loading area but you have to go exactly on the right point to load stuff
14:03<Wolf01>and the loading areas don't have a name, you must rely only on the switches... which can be far away from the exact point
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14:40<drac_boy>just curious about this but can you hide some buy window texts like the runcost or are these always set to show up all the times no matter what?
14:41<frosch123>you can add more
14:41<frosch123>you cannot remove stuff
14:43<drac_boy>right, and the added things only can be inserted from the bottom part too - correct?
14:46<frosch123>yes, it's just one text
14:46<frosch123>which people make look like there would be multiple
14:49<drac_boy>I thought that was the case there too, cheers anyhow :)
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15:04*andythenorth plots trains
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15:21<drac_boy>what kind of trains or not sure? :)
15:21<drac_boy>just asking after all heh
15:34<Wolf01>meh... I can't couple the diesel engine, I don't get the part with the brakes, anyone with trainz simulator which can give me a hint?
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15:46<drac_boy>hmm say I'm not finding much within uk sources atm but any of you have any thought on if the uic classification B'2' would probably be right for a vehicle thats only powered at one instead of both trucks?
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16:05<drac_boy>heh hm thanks, wanted to put these steam railcars somewhere :)
16:06<drac_boy>anyway going off for a bit now, be back later on tho
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16:07<andythenorth>Wolf01: just make sure you’ve turned off 90º curves :P
16:08<Wolf01>this contraption is complicated ~_~
16:08<NGC3982> < Milek7> what else you would want?
16:08<NGC3982>Using OpenTTD as a dedicated linux server gives the opportunity to customise almost everything in the game.
16:08<Wolf01>I managed to couple the wagons with "patience", but going downhill with dinamyc brake is suicide
16:08<NGC3982>So yes, we want a lot more that -D.
16:12<DexDeadly>i'm wanting to set one up locally to do some testing and playing I'm currently working so if I get a chance to later tonight I'll be attempting to install this into a free linux server vm
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16:21<DexDeadly>can I not have my windows machine connect to a linux server?
16:22<NGC3982>Google "How to connect from Windows to Linux using Putty"
16:22<DexDeadly>i got version mismatch but I see why now
16:22<NGC3982>Where not in #linux
16:22<NGC3982>My bad :D
16:22<DexDeadly>looks like when I installed on my windows machine I had installed 1.5.3 and when I did apt-get install openttd it installed 1.3.3
16:23<NGC3982>Aptitude is unfortunately not updated properly
16:23<NGC3982>You will need to download the package from the site and install it using dpkg
16:23<Pici>DexDeadly: What distro is that?
16:23<Pici>oh,nm probably trusty.
16:24<DexDeadly>so how do I do it through a headless linux server
16:26<Pici>DexDeadly: grab the deb from for your architecture and dpkg -i it
16:27<DexDeadly>yea I downloaded, now to get it over to the vm lol
16:27<Pici>I'd just run wget on the lonk.
16:28<Pici>You might need to run apt-get install -f after installing to grab any missed dependencies.
16:29<DexDeadly>ooh was unaware of that
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16:54<andythenorth>is bed
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17:33<DexDeadly>woo hoo
17:33<DexDeadly>got it!
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17:35<DexDeadly>Thanks pici, so I removed the previous install then I did as you said I did a wget on the URL then used sudo dkpg -i and the file name and it installed. Ran openttd -D and boom up.
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18:10<DexDeadly>can you run as a service?
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18:35<drac_boy>had any luck yet wolf01?
18:36<Wolf01>no, luck doesn't even know I exist
18:36<drac_boy>heh? :-s
18:50<drac_boy>wish I could help but both 1. I wouldn't know a thing about trainz and 2. bit busy looking for grf details
18:53<Wolf01>oh you meant that... yes I managed to finish the tutorial with patience, trials and errors, no luck involved
19:00<drac_boy>btw for anyone who might just want an idea of what-if for a fictional usa-style locomotive have a look at this
19:01<drac_boy>probably wouldn't be difficult to give it its own whine engine soundtrack in the grf anyway
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19:19<drac_boy>hmm yikes must be interesting road traffic organization at that time
19:22<sim-al2>I wouldn't be be surprised if they had flagmen for that
19:23<drac_boy>hows you as always?
19:23<sim-al2>I'm good
19:23<drac_boy>doing ok here
19:24<drac_boy>btw we were talking about prr steam before but before I forget heres something a bit different..
19:25<sim-al2>In the early days of steam-powered vehicles the UK passed a law that required most self-propelled road vehicles to have a flagman anyway (and a later law, very very low speed limits)
19:26<drac_boy>norfolk&western J class anyone? they were purposely built with smaller tires than the usual because simply they were designed to run fast *over* mountains :)
19:27<drac_boy>I even recall one article where a photographer was in the area just taking some photos then he noticed a local freight train trying to move uphill as fast as its poor pistons would .. and the duo were looking at their timetable wondering why such a train was trying to rush it
19:28<Wolf01>I watched a video of that one yesterday
19:29<drac_boy>the answer is it somehow had been let out ahead of an express train which soon turned out to be a J class ... thankfully by the time it arrived the would-be red signal turned green (meaning the local had cleared) and the photographers got surprised when the J accelerated quite fast from right there
19:31<sim-al2>Big bearings on those rods:
19:31<sim-al2>Note the roller bearings on most (all?) axles
19:32<sim-al2>Oh yeah, it does
19:33<drac_boy>the funny thing is that one of the J was loaned to another railroad for test comparison and the paper put down the J as being slow (re top speed) .. of course the test was done on a flatland route which was a bit out of character for a mountain express locomotive
19:34<sim-al2>It seems that it was run in excess of 100 mph at some points though
19:34<drac_boy>abotu roller bearing, I believe timken actually bought their own locomotive as to fully refit it with bearings instead of journal and put it on tour, thats about all I recall on that subject
19:37<sim-al2>Yeah, it seems to have taken a long time for roller bearings to catch on, considering the savings on needing to inspect and refill the grease so often
19:38<sim-al2>Freight cars were still rolling around with plain bearings into the 70's, I guess because of the cost of converting old cars
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19:43<sim-al2>Hmm, grfcrawler is throwing a 500 error
19:44<drac_boy>well from what I see the J class with 70 inch drivers could do bit over 100mph while the 80 inch on a UP 8-coupled was rated to 120mph but apparently would go faster than that
19:45<sim-al2>apparently the Milwaukee's F7 4-4-2 could reach or exceed 120mph, but speed measuring in those days was sometimes.... optimistic...
19:45<drac_boy>the E6 was 80 inch as well but likely limited by the small boiler (especially its length) re 115mph max on the special run
19:45<drac_boy>heh these "as swift as an arrow" F7, dern them :)
19:46<drac_boy>btw sim-a12 did you know that one of the F7 basically "blew up" its siderod assembly from the lubricator failing? thankfully even with emergency brake and a rod slamming into the ties/gravel the train still managed to stay completely upright on rails
19:46<drac_boy>sadly because diesels were starting to come in this one F7 was shunned to the scrapyard and never to be anymore soon
19:49<sim-al2>Yeah, I imagine that they were dependent on automatic lubricators to survive running at those speeds
19:50<drac_boy>yep, the particular ones on the F7 had a bit of less-than-healthy history
19:50<sim-al2>Great, I can't get the xUSSR set because TTD Russia is down for some kind of transfer
19:52<sim-al2>Anyone else getting an Internal Server Error:
19:53<DexDeadly>is there anything particular that needs to be done to enable connection from outside the network
19:53<sim-al2>DexDeadly: You mean OpenTTD on your machine?
19:54<drac_boy>oh yeah, fun quiz for you sim-a12 ... guess what kind of special track thinge would cause a lot of water to splash all over the place on the occasional fast trains? :)
19:56<sim-al2>Uh, track pans? Or one seriously undermined washout...
19:56<drac_boy>you guessed right at the former
19:56<drac_boy>well I was just looking up some examples to see about a grf idea and I found something else I just never ever knew had existed..
19:57<sim-al2>The Brits really loved them, and a few eastern railroads in the US, other places not so much
19:57<drac_boy> thats not even a steam locomotive
19:57<drac_boy>short note: the Type 4 had steam boilers before electric coaches were around it seem
19:57<sim-al2>Yeah, the early diesels could piggy back on that and pick up water for the steam boilers
19:58<sim-al2>Early diesels in a pinch could use water towers to refill their coolant too
19:58<drac_boy>still, a diesel scooping water .. I'm sure I could hear uninformed american modellers going " that a diesel locomotive?"
19:58<sim-al2>I can't imagine sitting in the splash zone is good for those ties though
19:59<sim-al2>That's a really cool photo
19:59<drac_boy>yeah I suspect half of the higher maintenances was not in the water system itself but indirectly the ties/ground erosions
20:00<sim-al2>A large scale water system will need some control for scaling, corrosion, etc too
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20:00<sim-al2>Many desert railways had to use water treatment because what little water they could get in arid areas was often poor quality
20:02<drac_boy>heres one of the few northeast usa examples looks like they put extra-wide ballast in and covered the top with "splash bricks" to weaken the water into washing away less gravels
20:02<sim-al2>Hmm, these guys really needed slab track...
20:03<drac_boy>THAT is one tender you do not want to stand next to tho... lot of water at very high speed 0_0
20:03<drac_boy>heck it even has more than ten (equally divided between left and right) bleed holes
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20:04<drac_boy>heres a more side-visible view .. lot of water being overflown out eh
20:04<sim-al2>Just add a pan here:
20:04<sim-al2>Oh wow
20:04<drac_boy>these Niagara had very HUGE tender to match the demand for very long nonstop run :p
20:05<drac_boy>you kinda can see the slanted rivet line where the coal bunker meets the smaller water tank ... coal is hard to get on fly but water isn't < obviously
20:06<drac_boy>of course there is always the water tender wagon as a 'second tender' for the less-priority train runs
20:06<sim-al2>I belive the NYC dispatched 4-8-2s with smallish water capacity, but 43 tons of coal since they could get water from the track pans
20:07<sim-al2>Oh yeah, those zany Germans and their track:
20:07<drac_boy>australia not surprisingly had a sizeable number of these water "tenders" that was used with just about anything even the once-weekly branch mixed trains
20:08<sim-al2>Yeah, much earlier and more often than most railways too
20:08<sim-al2>Of course, the water tenders have reappeared now that most stations lack watering facilities
20:09<sim-al2>And the condensing locomotive designs, the most famous being the South African Red Devils...
20:10<drac_boy>heh actually I don't recall what exactly went on but these particular tenders were pretty much rebuilt into conventional tank+bunker design later in the locomotive's life
20:10<drac_boy>the tank was naturally a bit small as the now-empty space around it apparently was supposed to be where the condenser stuffs went
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20:12<drac_boy>heres one photo
20:12<drac_boy>seem they were grouped as 25NC .. wonder if that meant 'No Condenser'? never know heh
20:13<sim-al2>Yeah, I think it's Non-Condensing, but of course you don't want to accidently dispatch a NC into the desert...
20:14<drac_boy>btw I'm not exactly sure what was the reasoning for it but I know that DR even had condensing tenders somewhere at some point
20:15<drac_boy>then again DR seem to have tried quite a different kind of unique things .. not to mention a few locomotives from one class having their normal coal tender being switched for a strange hopper-looking one that was designed around firing on pulverized coal (needless that did not turn out too well as I recall afaik)
20:15<sim-al2>Condensing was somewhat common, not necesairly for saving water but on the early urban railways, it helped reduce the emissions from the locomotive
20:15<DexDeadly>sorry i realized I did not set my port forward to tcp and udp fixed and working now for a fun weekend with some friends
20:16<sim-al2>The London underground had condensing locomotives using coke for fuel, all very good for running underground...
20:16<drac_boy>here it is .. that strange thing sitting on top of the normal tender box is the pulverize machine whatever it really did up there I dunno
20:17<sim-al2>DexDeadly: Yeah that's the one thing you might have to change, but of course every router has to be so inconsistent
20:18<drac_boy>and even the germans tried bite the "italy bug" too
20:18<drac_boy>I think there is not anything out there that has not already been tried by some way in germany too ;)
20:18<sim-al2>Apparently the DR 58 class was converted to coal-DUST firing at some point
20:19<sim-al2>Hmm, I wonder how many steam turbines they built
20:20<drac_boy>turbines? you want turbines?
20:20<sim-al2>Oh my:
20:20<drac_boy>I only know that existed but I got NO clue how it ran or whenever it even lasted
20:21<drac_boy>looks like 2 or 3 turbines and umm I hope theres some reversing system somewhere
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20:22<sim-al2>Not a turbine, but rather odd looking:
20:23<sim-al2>I imagine, rather warm in the summer
20:23<drac_boy>haha, that was because the firebox need to be wide for the slow-burn high-btu coal :p
20:24<sim-al2>Yep, poor fireman has pretty minimal protection though
20:24<sim-al2>And verbal communication is pretty impossible
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20:26<drac_boy>well I recall some uk locomotives did fire on slower coals too, their firebox pretty much pushed the track gauge
20:27<drac_boy>don't recall which tender class it was for an example tho
20:29<drac_boy>btw heres a non-camelback anthracite fired locomotive to counter your camelback anyhow ;)
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20:34<sim-al2>Now that's what I call a firebox...
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20:43<drac_boy>btw how would you like to run a locomotive on peat?
20:44<sim-al2>Sounds Finnish...
20:45<drac_boy>ireland in fact .. same man who tried build the Leader in uk too
20:46<sim-al2>Huh, I was going for Scotland as my second guess...
20:46<sim-al2>How well did it work?
20:47<drac_boy>not for long it would seem
20:48<drac_boy>anyhow I'm going to bed soon so you have fun with something else here allright? :)
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 20 00:00:08 2016