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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-22

---Logopened Mon Feb 22 00:00:11 2016
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04:18*andythenorth been busy
04:18<andythenorth>repainting NARS sprites
04:19<andythenorth>V453000 yo
04:20<Wolf01>just wow, lot of details
04:20<andythenorth>mostly just patterns of pixels
04:20<andythenorth>details not really there :)
04:21<Wolf01>I can see the little engineer waving his hand from the window... or better, it's static because not a gif, but he's there
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04:23*andythenorth biab
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08:09<argoneus>good morning train friends`~~
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09:04<Wolf01>meh, no C&O H8 or M1 for trainz :(
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10:29<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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10:45<Wolf01>mmh, something does not match between my instructions and the pieces of the software :|
10:48<@Alberth>unfortunately, not the exception to the rule, I am afraid
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10:50<@Alberth>oh, great andy, a nicely coloured engine
10:51*andythenorth had fun drawing that
10:52<Wolf01>software curves have the wrong radius
10:53<Wolf01>or the 2 pieces with the connections have the wrong length
10:58<Wolf01>meh they use facebook as a support forum :|
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11:24<Wolf01>"In general, most of the track plans that are published in books or magazines (especially old ones) are initially assembled with real tracks and then are transferred to paper drawings."
11:25<Wolf01>so, I can't do anything else than fix the layout by myself
11:26<@Alberth>find some real tracks, and assemble the layout :p
11:26<Wolf01>also, next time (never) I should purchase a well known brand, and not one which seem to have made only my one :P
11:27<@Alberth>might give better value for money
11:28<Wolf01>this one could have my age, and if not, at least 25 years
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11:43<andythenorth>Wolf01: what are you doing? :)
11:43<Wolf01>digitalising my diorama
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>my experience is that physical tracks are way more forgiving with inaccuracies than the programs allow ;)
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11:45*andythenorth agrees
11:45<andythenorth>based on what my kids are doing
11:45<Wolf01>yes, but it's off by 3cm :P
11:46<andythenorth>use brio, that can handle 3cm gap :P
11:46<Wolf01>and the diamond crossover does not fit
11:46<andythenorth>Wolf01: now you are making me guilty :P
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>3cm sounds about right :p
11:46<andythenorth>I had a plan to build a small switching layout
11:46<andythenorth>so I carefully bought a lot of ebay ‘bargains'
11:47<andythenorth>which now go round and round on my kids circle track
11:47<Wolf01>lego or model thing?
11:47<andythenorth>HO american trains
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12:20<Wolf01>uhm, now that I noticed... where's __ln__?
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12:24<qwebirc44411>Currently every train i have is ran by 2 SH40 engines, and I just learned to make the T.I.M engines. Using autoreplace, I seem to get 2 pairs of T.I.M engines, lengthening all my trains by 2 wagons. Is there any way to replace all my trains in a way that sells off the 2 SH40 engines and replaces them with one pair of T.I.M engines?
12:25<Wolf01>that's tricky
12:26<qwebirc44411>alrighty, i'll start doing it manually
12:27<AdmiralKew>I'd add more cargo wagons and lengthen the platforms and just keep the 2x TIM engine pairs
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12:29<V453000>qwebirc44411: in the autoreplace window, there is a button "remove wagons"
12:29<V453000>on / off
12:29<V453000>it will remove any excessive wagons
12:29<qwebirc44411>yeah i want to remove engines rather than wagons though
12:29<Wolf01>but removes wagons
12:30<andythenorth>rule based replacements :P
12:30<andythenorth>for vehicle type x, add n vehicle of type y
12:30*andythenorth often wants that
12:30<Wolf01>like when I wanted to convert all my steam trains to diesel... I cursed a lot because of cabeese
12:31<andythenorth>I tried handling that in Iron Horse, but replacing cabeese is meh
12:31<andythenorth>can’t remember why
12:31<andythenorth>oh cargo
12:31<andythenorth>can’t replace if cargo bits don’t match
12:31<V453000>I dont believe that is the case
12:31<andythenorth>try it
12:32<V453000>you only can't replace if coal wagon wants to replace to a wagon which can't carry coal
12:32<Wolf01>and I couldn't even trim the wagons because diesel engines were shorter than steam locos+tender
12:32<V453000>but caboose -> coal wagon works I think
12:32<andythenorth>e.g. Cabeese -> Coal Hoppers, no dice
12:32<andythenorth>maybe I did it wrong :D
12:32<andythenorth>dunno, I could look in logs for Frosch telling me not to be silly
12:33<V453000>I thought in NARS it worked, but maybe it was not autoreplaced, it was always removed by the remove wagons function
12:33<V453000>but the remove wagons removes from the front and I always put cabeese at the end, so idk
12:36<_johannes> -> I still don't get how YAPF works. If a train is in 'Paderheim', with its nose towards 'Paderheim Ost', and should drive to the left of Paderheim, YAPF says there is no such path
12:36<_johannes>I guess it's because A* does not go back?
12:36<andythenorth>remove wagons usually works for me
12:36<andythenorth>seems magical, but I don’t ask
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12:38<_johannes>michi_cc do you know ?
12:38<V453000>when I played with original trains and used short trains in the start, for 5 tile trains with 2 engines I always built engine - 5 wagons - engine - 3 wagons
12:39<V453000>after autoreplace it becomes engine head - 3 wagons - engine head - engine head - 3 wagons - engine head
12:39<V453000>so, from the front :)
12:42<V453000>that sounds weird _johannes ... did you check if all parts are electrified or something?
12:42<_johannes>V453000: yep, all electrified
12:43<_johannes>V453000: of course, the train found the way back ingame (it calls YAPF in both directions), but imo YAPF into the right direction should also lead the train into the left direction, finally
12:43<V453000>does the train say there is no path, or does it just proceed the other way as in doesn't reverse in the station?
12:44<_johannes>the train reverses with no problems, just the algorithm does not :-)
12:45<V453000>too deep for me to understand :P
12:45<NGC3982>Many years ago
12:45<NGC3982>I for some reason put "too deep" as a hilight trigger
12:46<_johannes>I wonder why the A* does refuse to turn around in stations...
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12:46<_johannes>instead, the algorithm is being called twice in each station, which makes it slow
12:46<_johannes>(even ingame)
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12:51<@Alberth>trains only leave once at each station
12:52<@Alberth>it's way more expensive if you run backward computations all the time
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12:55<_johannes>Alberth: you mean the path finder only leaves once?
12:56<@Alberth>a train starts running from a station exactly one time, before arriving at the next station
12:57<@Alberth>so at the very first tick, you have 2 searches
12:57<_johannes>yes, by calling YAPF twice
12:57<@Alberth>now compare that with a double search every tile or every tick (I forgot how often it gets called) while the train is on route
12:58<_johannes>no no, I don't mean that
12:58<_johannes>only on every station
12:59<@Alberth>I don't see the problem tbh
12:59<_johannes>currently, Yapf checks only one direction if it arrives on a station
12:59<@Alberth>instead of A* itself doing both sides, you call it two times, ie you moved the direction decision out of the loop of A*
13:00<_johannes>why does it not take the reverse direction into account?
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>because YAPF is run way more often outside of stations than inside
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>where reversing is never an option
13:01<@Alberth>and deciding not to do reverse search also takes time
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>so you special case the rare situation, not the common situation
13:01<_johannes>Alberth: no, I'd like to call it once instead of twice
13:01<@Alberth>void DoAStar() { Call(false); Call(true); } ?
13:01<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but sometimes, reversing at a station is neccessary
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: yes, hence that is the special case.
13:02<@Alberth>trains are practically never leaving the station
13:03<@Alberth>they are either moving on the tracks with a direction, or they are stopped for loading
13:04<@Alberth>but just add a wrapper that calls A* twice if you're so desperate to hide the directional search
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: for every time the train is leaving the station, it's calling YAPF twice. during moving, it calls YAPF 100 times. so if over the course of the travel, it calls YAPF 101 or 102 times does asymptotically not matter
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: if instead YAPF always checked backwards, and had to filter out 100 of the 101 times for bogus backwards results, that's much more expensive calculation-wise
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>thus, the current solution of calling YAPF twice for situations allowing reversing, is the optimal solution
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>(also, reversing in stations may be disabled in settings)
13:08<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: So the idea is that reversing a train usually makes no advantage, and thus, this calculation is not being done in order to save time?
13:08<_dp_>ehm, how're you even going to check that backwards? what if there is more than one station along the route?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: no, reversing a train usually CANNOT happen, and thus the caclulation is only being done where it CAN.
13:09<@Alberth>if you run 230km/h, what use is a backward search path?
13:09<_dp_>it's possible to do with single call by adding fake rail for reversing
13:09<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: wait, reversing CAN happen
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: YAPF is run at every path signal and every switch along the train's path
13:09<_johannes>it does happen regularly in some stations
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: reversing cannot happen in those situations
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: stations are a VERY RARE EXCEPTION
13:11<_johannes>hmm but why did you call YAPF twice in that rare exception, instead of calling it in two directions?
13:11<_johannes>that would probably have been easier and even faster
13:11<_johannes>currently, if you call yapf twice, yapf can not use the cached results from the first call, so it's an overhead
13:11<@Alberth>because it implies you have code to disable the second direction
13:12<@Alberth>that code also takes time
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, it would not, as that would impact the performance of EVERY call to YAPF, even the ones that CANNOT allow reversing
13:13<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: no, nodes at path signals would only have one direction to advance
13:13<_johannes>I'd set up two edges per track
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: it's a simple statistical concept: you multiply the performance impact with the probability that the event occures
13:13<_johannes>and these edges would only share a node at a station or depot
13:14<@Alberth>nobody builds tracks without junctions
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>whichever product is smaller, is the better solution overall
13:14<_johannes>I just start getting why it's a rare exception though...
13:17<@Alberth>if you have a 1000 trains running, you don't want to know how often yapf is called every second
13:17<@Alberth>every fricking nano second gain is needed
13:18<_johannes>it's called so often because some trains might start blocking other trains now, right?
13:18<@Alberth>ever tried adding a new connection that's shorter, just in front of a train in a block signal segment?
13:18<@Alberth>it immediately finds the better route
13:19<_johannes>yes, and sometimes, it even hangs very shortly
13:19<@Alberth>that's usually the save game copy
13:20<@Alberth>you need to copy the entire map, while nothing moves
13:20<@Alberth>at big map sizes, that's a lot of cpu cycles
13:20<_johannes>yes, I know
13:20<_johannes>well, it could be done multi-threaded :P but I don't complain
13:21<@Alberth>mope, it cannot
13:21<@Alberth>it would break in MP
13:21<@Alberth>also, trains react on other trains, it's a sequential process
13:22<@Alberth>even though it look parallel
13:22<_johannes>I just thought calling save routines could be moved to a thread...
13:22<@Alberth>it is
13:23<_johannes>oh? wow...
13:23<@Alberth>but you need a fixated copy of the map
13:23<_johannes>ah I see!
13:23<@Alberth>so you need to make a copy, but during that time, nothing can move
13:24<@Alberth>after copying is done, game continues, and the save thread writes the data to disk
13:24<_johannes>anyways, how to solve my graph problem? I guess I'll just call YAPF like it it, but try reversing on every station... this gives me a graph of stations where I can run my own A* on... probably the easiest solution?
13:25<@Alberth>at least I think so
13:26<_dp_>_johannes, I don't think that problem can even be solved precisely for some cases
13:26<_dp_>_johannes, with pf trap for example train won't ever go the way pathfinder shows if you call it from station
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13:31<_johannes>_dp_: what do you mean by "pf trap" ?
13:34<_johannes>_dp_: that thing is really cool
13:37<_johannes>in the right image, the train first thinks that the shortcut is faster, however, when it comes to reserving that track, it sees that it can not advance via the red signal and takes the left route?
13:38<_dp_>_johannes, yep, at least that's how I understand it too
13:39<_dp_>_johannes, also check SRNWs, they usually abuse pathfinder heavily xD
13:41*_johannes must try it out
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14:36<Wolf01>mmh I must understand how real signals work, spread them like OTTD doesn't seem to work
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14:55<frosch123>haha, how awesome
14:55<frosch123>it's time again to make fun of the two-intials-grfid-rule :)
14:57<drac_boy>frosch you talking about that recent forum thread re someone almost going crazy till he realized his initials existed elsewhere? :)
14:57<frosch123>exactly :)
14:57<andythenorth>am I on different forums?
14:57<@planetmaker>hehe... drat. That possibility totally didn't occur to me :)
14:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth, nope :)
14:58<drac_boy>frosch well I think thats also the problem with just handing out random grfids with no kind of tracking too :)
14:59<frosch123>drac_boy: if they were truely random we would not have any problem ever :)
15:00<andythenorth>hash them with your public key or something :P
15:00*andythenorth says words
15:00<frosch123>andythenorth: you meant to say "private key"
15:01<andythenorth>it’s all just crypto to me :P
15:02<frosch123>any new alpacas?
15:02<frosch123>koalas or pandas?
15:02<frosch123>weird ship
15:02<andythenorth>quite pleased with these sprites, if I say so myself
15:03*drac_boy is glad my possible grfid isn't in use yet per crawler/forum check
15:03<andythenorth>1) think it looks ok 2) fun to draw
15:03<andythenorth>I have stopped re-lighting the reversed angle
15:03<andythenorth>much more satisfying
15:03<frosch123>why is it called "boat"?
15:03<andythenorth>I just knock the shading of the CC down by 1 or 2
15:03<andythenorth>super realism
15:03<frosch123>oh, it's a type, yuo meant "big boar" :)
15:04<andythenorth>I made ‘baby boat'
15:04<andythenorth>so the big one had to be ‘big boat’
15:04<@Alberth>good colour
15:05<andythenorth>company colour? :P
15:06<andythenorth>doing sprites with wrong lighting might actually look better
15:06<andythenorth>especially in – view, which is all most people really look at
15:07<drac_boy>baby deltic? ;)
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15:14<drac_boy_>sorry bit of server issue
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15:29<drac_boy>sim-a12 :p anything good? ;)
15:29<sim-al2>oh hi
15:34<sim-al2>Well I suppose this:
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15:35<drac_boy>and either way do you recall I mentioned about a lone german diesel locomotive in canada before?
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15:35<sim-al2>Which one?
15:36<drac_boy>well I finally found it and look in the background, its really canada :)
15:37<drac_boy>probably the only diesel-hydraulic ever in canada (usa at least had a few if you remember we even talked about SP's too)
15:38<drac_boy>oh and on a slight less unusual note did you perhaps know that canada did actually have two emd E units in an all-F-units country? they were bought for montreal<>ny service or something to that effect
15:39<monsted>for train nerds, you might enjoy Michael Portillo's "Great <something> Railway Journeys". they just finished an american trip.
15:40<frosch123>sim-al2: what's that?
15:41<monsted>looks like mechanical switchgear on an electric train
15:41<sim-al2>Apparently they ended up in CP ownership towards the end, probably a good thing
15:41<drac_boy>I imagine when the service ended (or moved to amtrak/via) these units went nowwhere ... can't think CP would want to bother trying to put an E and F units together or did they
15:41<sim-al2>They will work together ok, assuming similar gearing
15:42<sim-al2>frosch123: It's the camshaft controller of a JR emu, the big shaft places resistance in the circuit and knocks it out as it advances
15:42<sim-al2>The small contacts I think are for weakfield control
15:43<sim-al2>And the contacts shown at the beginning I assume are the main breakers for the whole unit
15:45<sim-al2>For a train running off DC, this kind of camshaft controller was very common from ~1920's to the 1980's, but it could be found on AC units too
15:47<drac_boy>and for canada again heres something from the late 70's thats an interesting CN/VIA paint mismash :) .. there even sometimes were three together (CN/CP/VIA)
15:47<drac_boy>you can see theres probably at least two commuter CN coaches in the consist too
15:48<sim-al2>I have to say, the Alco FA nose is my favorite, even more than the F-unit nose
15:49<drac_boy>heh I sorta like alco for most part yeah ... doesn't help they'll smoke like steam sometimes *whistles and looks somewhere else*
15:50<sim-al2>Yeah, the Alcos are so known for it, but all diesels did then, pre-emission standards the only limiting factor was appearences
15:51<drac_boy> .. or if you want low maintenance try india/etc as they make too much black smoke to see the sun
15:52<sim-al2>The Indian railways has actually been building and upgrading Alco-engined units for a long time, they even have an EFI version
15:52<drac_boy>reminds me of a short article where a ex-shopforeman actually mentioned that in term of baldwins "if they're not constantly leaking oil then theres something wrong!" ... talk about finding that funny
15:52<sim-al2>I think it's mostly the older or less-maintained units that make the Youtube video clouds
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15:53<drac_boy>theres always these too some smoking but no big oil burnoff's
15:55<drac_boy>sim-a12 not related to oil smoke but theres another kind of smoke I sometimes just like to point out, one sec...
15:57<drac_boy> care to guess why theres a little smoke coming from it? (then again I think you probably already knew)
15:58<sim-al2>Well, only that little boiler to run the steam heating
15:58<monsted>the tea kettle!
15:59<drac_boy>sim-a12 as one magazine wrote.. the GG1 was a little more alike to steam tech than diesel tech .. and the editor had a point
15:59<sim-al2>As I recall, the boiler and the main transformer are both in the middle space, leaving the crew with a somewhat tight cab
16:00<drac_boy>steam-style boiler (but later refitted with diesel era boiler), spoked tires, idler axles (only 1 or 2 other diesels had it), iron bell, being built at a tender company, etc
16:00<drac_boy>oh and even GG1 name itself was a steam hangover too (G class is a 2-6-0 .. figured didn't that)
16:01<drac_boy>you're right about the tight cab, just enough space for 2 people
16:03<sim-al2>There were some competitors, like the P5A class, a 4-6-4 that wasn't powerful enough, and the R1 prototype, a 4-8-4, but one that suffered from some wheelbase problems
16:04<sim-al2>But the GG1 had more power and better tracking qualities, thanks to it's articulated drivers
16:04<drac_boy>monsted if you want a real kettle here you go!
16:04<drac_boy>sim-a12 as I recall the number 4800 initially went to a non-articulated unit (was like 2-D-2 I think?) but it was a bit wanting
16:05<drac_boy>funny enough the one lone unit still lasted a few years as I think was quoted
16:05<sim-al2>Yeah, I think only one was built, but the PRR kept it for many years:
16:05<drac_boy>sim-a12 well as it was already built and shared same service components I can see why they didn't bother scrapping it till it really wasn't useable
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16:07<drac_boy>its been a while but I think the GG1 #4800 was the only one with its body being rivetted ... and some museum still had it minus enviromentally-gutted transformer internals
16:08<sim-al2>Note that these early "straight AC" locomotives often had two traction motors per axle, a way to get around the disadvantages (i.e. poor torque)
16:08<drac_boy>sim-a12 the only problem with GG1 was ... a little happy to slip ... that explains the frequent doublehead on some freight duties :)
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16:12<drac_boy>still find it interesting that of the three (could had been there were more but I'm going by the editor's note) GG1's still left in NJT service one was washed down well and took a special excursion service but sadly had some problem on return trip so a drowsy black GG1 was dispatched to bring it in .. that was the very last corridor GG1 train ever I believe
16:12<drac_boy>NJT at least knew a good thing when they saw one (not to mention that tickets were only $1)
16:12<sim-al2>It's a shame that none can run, but with so many years of PRR and PC neglect, they were run into the ground
16:13<drac_boy>well thats only half of the problem..the other half is that the transformers wouldn't be accepted and that would be expensive to replace .. plus other fact is trying to push that old cracks-filled chassis at 140mph would be a bit harsh
16:13<sim-al2>Not to mention the frame-cracking problem that was never fully solved
16:13<sim-al2>Ehh, 140mph? GG1 Vmax was 100mph
16:13<drac_boy>and all these silly "just replace internals with one from the AEM7" talks don't have much clue about reality either!
16:14<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. corridor services wouldn't slow down for the GG1 .. hence why I mentioned that
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16:14<sim-al2>Yeah, the AEM7 system is completely different, but NEC speed is 125mph
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16:15<drac_boy>well still .. could a GG1 keep up with standard Acela timings? thats the first drawback
16:15<drac_boy>mind you britian is going through a bit of similar problem with even the faster steam locomotives getting less chances to run on mainlines due to ever-increasing route speeds
16:15<sim-al2>Not really, but the GE E60Cs that were supposed to replace them were limited to 80mph or 90mph at times
16:16<sim-al2>Long distance trains even now rarely run above 90
16:16<drac_boy>and steam at King Cross? in your dream :) (figures doesn't it heh)
16:17<sim-al2>If anything, the real crime is that MARC seems dead-set on replacing their electrics with diesels, so that they can be clog up the corridor around Washington DC
16:19<sim-al2>The higher speeds allowed now are a recent phonomenon, throughout the 70's and 80's speed restrictions were everywhere, which is how the E60s survived so long
16:20<drac_boy>btw I did a check .. the Acela does actually get to go over 130mph ... and after 2016 there would be some 160mph spots too
16:21<sim-al2>Current Acela max speed is 150mph through an area in Rhode Island (the extension from NY to Boston), but they have tested it on the corridor at 160
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16:22<sim-al2>The damn tunnels around Baltimore seem a bit more pressing, but that project has been crawling along for decades now
16:22<drac_boy>for does seem like MNR has the new haven to new york commuter route posted for 90mph or 60mph
16:22<drac_boy>even then theres probably very little headway between trains .. a GG1 *may* be ok there with a light consist, no idea tbh :)
16:23<sim-al2>I don't know too much about MNR (too far away for me), but they seem to run at 80 or less most of the time
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16:24<drac_boy>btw about MARC ... ummm ....
16:24<sim-al2>the GG1 had good power, even if they had been in good shape the mainteance would have done them in, the control system is primairly moving contacts inside the transformer under load
16:25<drac_boy>well last I recall I think a lot of the MARC trains often had some routings away from the corridor hence the frequent use of diesel push-pull
16:26<drac_boy>mind you GO Transit tried inquiry about some electrification at least once but so far they're running on MP40 locomotives most of the times with just still occassional uses of the older F40PH
16:27<drac_boy> not the F40..just can't recall the next number
16:27<drac_boy>you get idea anyway
16:28<drac_boy>GO Transit is a bit funny .. all locomotives always point in one same direction for ease of scheduling .. but sometimes the rare one does sit outside shop facing wrong direction
16:33<sim-al2>They are rebuilding those MP40s into MP54s for more power though
16:34<sim-al2>And the F59s are being sold into US commuter lines now, Chicago finally has a commuter locomotive with an engine design only from the 80s/90s instead of the 60s
16:35<sim-al2>You're right about MARC having a lot of diesel line service, but the electric line is seperate now, and slowing down the trains will piss off Amtrak to MARC's peril
16:36<sim-al2>There seems to be a high chance of MARC leasing/buying the AEM-7ACs as they get replaced by the ACS-64 though
16:37<drac_boy>mmm yeah
16:38<sim-al2>the ACs are seemingly still in good shape, and subsitute for the 64s while the buys are worked out, whereas the DCs (what MARC, Septa) are pretty worn out, and parts not really avaliable
16:40<sim-al2>NJT had a fleet of similar locomotives, the ALP44, but parked them in a yard somewhere as the ALP46A's arrived, apparently the 44s had problems even before the DCs did
16:40<drac_boy>anyway have fun trying to talk to someone else ok? I'm going off for now sorry :)
16:40<sim-al2>Ok bye
16:40<drac_boy>oh, interesting
16:40<drac_boy>bye mr.trainwatch :)
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 23 00:00:12 2016