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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-23

---Logopened Tue Feb 23 00:00:12 2016
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05:42<MonkeyDrone>test test
05:50<ST2>MonkeyDrone: /join #/r/openttd
05:58<Wolf01>a reddit chan on irc?
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05:59<ST2>yeah, I think MonkeyDrone was searching for it :)
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06:06<MonkeyDrone>the game server irc channel
06:06<MonkeyDrone>how can those two servers talk to each other and how can we talk to them from here
06:06<ST2>1st, /join #/r/openttd
06:06<ST2>to you join the correct channel
06:12<Wolf01>uhm, another train accident, in NL this time, seem somebody forgot some equipment on the track or to change a switch
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09:42<MonkeyDrone>anyone knows where i can get a list of the 'content' (mods) for the dedicated server. I do 'content state' and it throws out a huge list that i can't browse in the terminal or the game console, its too big
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09:53<Milek7>why there isn't cargo id listed?
09:56<@planetmaker>what you mean with 'cargo ID', Milek7? And concerning NewGRFs: you do not need the cargoID *anywhere*. Use the cargo labels
09:57<@planetmaker>If you really use the cargoID in the sense as defined by the spec by any of your NewGRFs you write/modify, you do it wrong [TM]
09:58<@planetmaker>(speaking of vehicle newgrfs)
09:58<MonkeyDrone>well i got my logs for the content state IDs, just ran openttd -D >> commands.log and viola
09:59<MonkeyDrone>sweeet, time to get to exercise first and work on this next
09:59<Milek7>game script api operates on CargoID
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10:00<Milek7>and i want to some cargo in firs diffirently than others
10:00<Milek7>/s/to/to treat
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10:06<Milek7>i can do GetCargoLabel on each cargo, but this is pretty ugly solution
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause>on the contrary, operating on cargo label is the only sane solution
10:13<@planetmaker>yes, you should operate with cargo label. Especially also for game scripts
10:13<Milek7>but why not on id?
10:14<@planetmaker>because the ID is *not guaranteed* to be stable accross versions etc.
10:14<@planetmaker>the cargo label otoh describes a distinct cargo
10:15<Milek7>ok, new firs would need updated game script config
10:15<Milek7>what is wrong with it?
10:15<@planetmaker>that you would get the updated config
10:15<Milek7>and what for industries id?
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>with andy? those change faster than you can look...
10:16<@planetmaker>they can be explicitly set. But ^^
10:17<Milek7>industries don't even have labels
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>"i hate this economy. let's make 3 more"
10:17<Milek7>and using name sounds like a terrible idea
10:17<@planetmaker>a game script which works with cargo labels just works. With cargoIDs... is a PITA for users
10:17<@planetmaker>and for you to maintain
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: i'd rather identify industries by their input/output cargos
10:18<@planetmaker>yes ^^
10:19<@planetmaker>it's a bit boilerplate you need to add there to start with cargo label. convert that to the ID and then get a list of industries which accept or provide the cargo with that ID.
10:19<@planetmaker>But that's how a sane GS would do it
10:20<Milek7>writting input/output cargo lists into gamescript code, and then matching it with industries?
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7: it always depends what you're actually trying to achieve
10:21<@planetmaker>kinda, yes
10:22<@planetmaker>define the cargos you are interested in. Then look for industries which handle those
10:22<Milek7>but, i am interesed in particular industry
10:22<@planetmaker>it makes sure your GS will work also with the FIRS version available literally tomorrow :)
10:22<@planetmaker>Milek7, a particular industry has particular cargo input and output
10:23<@planetmaker>what is it you try to do?
10:24<Milek7>eg. i want to treat Builders Yard specially
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>so, look for BDMT?
10:26<Milek7>but BDMT is accepted also by Builders Yard, Bulk Terminal, Hardware Store
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>so, find a cargo that distinguishes those
10:29<Milek7>so i should get in/out cargo from industry, hash in into md5, and compare with predefinied hashes
10:29<Milek7>sounds crazy
10:31<supermop>hmm no andy
10:31<supermop>i wonder what ever happened to that Andean roster that seemed to be drawn about a year ago
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10:39<@planetmaker>Milek7, I don't quite see why that should be crazy. It's actually very sane. Look for industries which accept BDMT and supply nothing. Done.
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10:41<Milek7>but why not id!?
10:42<Milek7>industries are added in the middle of list, not at end?
10:43<@planetmaker>Hi 4lberth :)
10:45<@Alberth>when you check on cargo, you have less changes to your script, and less versions of FIRS to worry about
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10:47<@Alberth>At least as many industries disappear, or get renamed, not only added :)
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12:15<Monkey_>can anyone point me in the direction of how to enable 'addons' on a dedicated linux server
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12:18<@Alberth>same way you do at a normal desktop
12:18<@Alberth>activate some newgrfs
12:18<@Alberth>or use a map with newgrfs
12:19<@Alberth>only puzzles are a) how to configure (answer: use a desktop machine, and copy the openttd.cfg file, while the server is not running)
12:19<@Alberth>b) how to get the newgrfs there (answer, read the README, find the newgrfs at your desktop version, copy them to the right spot at the server
12:21<@Alberth>remember to replace the \ directory separator to / separators in the cfg if you copy from windows to unix
12:21<Monkey_>thank you
12:22<Monkey_>I already managed to download all the grfs to the server throuhg the command line
12:22<Monkey_>i'll check out the openttd.cfg file
12:22<@Alberth>maybe add it to the MP faq?
12:22<Monkey_>only thing missing to do
12:22<Monkey_>well the wiki already has how to download content from the online repository through the command line
12:23<Monkey_>Installing Online Content section.
12:23<@Alberth>I believe you, I don't have a server nor am I intewrested in it
12:23<Monkey_>activating it is another matter. i'mgoing ot try someting real quick first. Maybe old savegame keeps loading and that's why its not showing up.
12:24<Monkey_>I am trying to setup a server with some resemblance of sanity in the game with some extra addons that add quality of life improvements to the game
12:25<@Alberth>nice blurb that you can read in anyway you like :)
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12:27<Monkey_>:D ty for the help again
12:27<@Alberth>yw, have fun
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12:30<Monkey_>think i figured it out, now to wait for it to download 80MB of content on 2Mbps internet.....I'll post an update here when i've tested it.
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12:35<roidal>'in temperate climate the oil wells are soon closing down due to a bug allowing no increase of their production.' – may i ask why this doesn't get fixed?
12:35<sim-al2>It's not a bug, it's a feature (really, it's supposed to be that way)
12:36<roidal>why this is supposed that way?
12:36<@Alberth>you get oilrigs instead
12:36<roidal>and why does the wiki say a different thing?
12:36<@Alberth>euhm, it's a wiki?
12:37<roidal>that point goes on you! :D
12:37<roidal>but why it is supposed that oil wells can't increase their production?
12:38<@Alberth>but default industries in temperate switch from oilwells to oilrigs
12:38<@Alberth>not increasing production pushes in that direction
12:38<roidal>hm, so
12:38<@Alberth>it was this way already in the original game
12:39<roidal>there are no new oil wells created neither?
12:39<@Alberth>if you don't want this, you'll have to use an industry newgrf
12:39<sim-al2>It makes more sense in the context of much smaller maps, pushing you to build into the sea to keep getting oil (just like Britain and the North Sea)
12:40<roidal>so its bad if i have a map without see?
12:40<@Alberth>if you want oil after around 1955 or so, pretty bad yep :p
12:40<@Alberth>dig a big hole from the edge? :p
12:41<roidal>yeah, that brings me to another question
12:41<roidal>if i crate a own, big, lake
12:42<roidal>would the game create oil rigs?
12:42<sim-al2>Yes, if it's big enough
12:42<@Alberth>and not river, I think, but not sure
12:42<roidal>ok, and how iam able to crate a totally own lake?
12:43<roidal>if i use the water tool
12:43<roidal>its not really like a lake?
12:43<@Alberth>there are 2 kinds of water
12:43<sim-al2>I think if you lower land on the edge of the map to the lowest level sea appears (not sure about that)
12:43<@Alberth>river, and sea. The latter floods any 0 level land
12:43<@planetmaker>Monkey_, the simplest way is to upload a map and load that on the server. Unless you want randomly generated maps with the same settings again and again, then use the NewGRFs setting in the server's openttd.cfg
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12:44<@Alberth>so lower land to 0 level, wait for flooding, then rise the edge (if you want a lake rather than a corner of sea)
12:44<roidal>Alberth: and iam only able to create a river by myselfe?
12:44<@Alberth>no idea, sorry
12:45<Monkey_>I did just sort out the [newgrf] setion, got my addons working, but thank you planetmaker, i was wondering how can i keep it from generating a new world each time
12:45<@Alberth>nice trains andy, fun names :)
12:45<andythenorth>I need more names
12:45<roidal>and if i have a big lake in the middle of the map, would there be any oilrigs or have it to be on the corner of the map?
12:45<andythenorth>british trains tend to have many nicknames, so they were easy
12:45<andythenorth>these ones, not so much
12:46<andythenorth>I need some naming convention
12:46<andythenorth>Road Hog is named after mines, quarries and forests
12:46<@Alberth>roidal, not sure, there is a setting to keep oilrigs at the edge within X tiles
12:48<Monkey_>i'm liking NUTS, the colors look awesome in it
12:49<_dp_>roidal, you can try funding oil rigs in game if you allow that in settings
12:49<_dp_>roidal, but they are very picky as far as I can tell...
12:49<roidal>yes, that would be possible too
12:49<roidal>hm, i saw
12:49<roidal>that there is no need for water to create a new see
12:50<roidal>its done automatically if a border-tile is lowered to level 0
12:50<_dp_>depends on some setting iirc
12:50<@Alberth>nah, flooding is always on
12:51<_dp_>flooding yes, but not getting in from border
12:51<@Alberth>people fake it with a row of river tiles though :)
12:52<@Alberth>ah, ok
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12:54<roidal>_dp_: do you know the name of the setting
12:55<roidal>can't find something related
12:55<frosch123>it's called "primary industry construction method"
12:55*andythenorth needs a DanMacK or so :)
12:55<frosch123>or something like that
12:55<frosch123>it has options "none", "prospect" and "like secondary"
12:56<roidal>sorry for the missunderstanding
12:56<roidal>i mean that flood thing from the boarder?
12:57<_dp_>roidal, no, I'm not even entirely sure it exists
12:57<frosch123>no, the map border always floods
12:58<Monkey_>can i enable more than 15 companies? or it won't matter even if i change it in the settings
12:58<sim-al2>I don't think it's possible
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13:00<andythenorth>I want to make multi-unit diesels quite a bit in Iron Horse
13:01<andythenorth>is it weird
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13:02<andythenorth>rationale: big engines need to be 2000hp-6000hp
13:02<andythenorth>and I only want to click once to build an engine for my train
13:03<@Alberth>see it as newgrf author freedom :)
13:03<andythenorth>I can just hear the counter argument in my head
13:03<roidal>ok, ty to everyone!
13:03<andythenorth>“give the player freedom to choose"
13:03<@Alberth>if they don't like it, just ignore it, or hide it
13:04<andythenorth>this is what I want to hear :)
13:04<andythenorth>obviously enough :)
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13:07<Monkey_>server v2 test in progress, aww yyiss
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13:08<@Alberth>as one of the almost 300 servers for 164 users :)
13:08<@Alberth>every user can have almost 2 servers all for himself :p
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13:09<Monkey_>success, hehe, just need to configure it
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13:10<Monkey_>yes i've seen those 300 servers, i just want something i can play :P
13:10<Monkey_>and have it running even if i'm offline
13:10<Monkey_>none of the servers have the setup i would like to have
13:10<roidal>finally i got oilrigs
13:11<Monkey_>congrats :D
13:12<roidal>totally easy
13:12<roidal>create your own ocean
13:13<Monkey_>hehe, yeah, dig allt he way :D
13:13<_dp_>ttd logic: no oil under land -> flood it and find some under water :p
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13:18<Monkey_>well oil is located underground
13:18<Monkey_>so dig dig dig
13:18<Monkey_>soudns legit
13:20<roidal>i don't like oilrigs
13:20<roidal>you need ships
13:20<roidal>and ships are slow
13:22<roidal>hm, can i use planes to transport oil? :D
13:22<Monkey_>can't you like build as mall land mass to it to hook a station and throw up trains? :P
13:22<Monkey_>or it won't owrk?
13:22<roidal>exactly that was i think
13:22<roidal>but with planes
13:23<Monkey_>haha, planes work
13:23<Monkey_>brb, need to switch to computer
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13:24<MonkeyDrone>so much better
13:26<roidal>and oil doesn't work with planes
13:26<MonkeyDrone>choo choo it is :D
13:26<MonkeyDrone>no ship grfs that have faster ships?
13:27<roidal>hm, would be unrealistic?
13:27<MonkeyDrone>it is a game xD
13:28<MonkeyDrone>it can be a little unrealistic :D
13:28<MonkeyDrone>digging an ocean to have a oilrig spawn, how realistic is that? :P
13:28<@Alberth>openttd doesn't aim to be realistic at all
13:29<@Alberth>sharp 45 degrees corners :p
13:30<roidal>MonkeyDrone: this is only a question of money :D
13:30<roidal>and 45°, i think that was part of some technical restrictions?
13:30<MonkeyDrone>roidal, true that xD
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13:31<MonkeyDrone>well real trains smooth out to 45 degrees
13:32<roidal>i meant technical restrictions of the game
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13:33<MonkeyDrone>animation restrictions?
13:33<roidal>but a really funny thing in ttd
13:33<MonkeyDrone>it's easier to rotate an object 45 degrees
13:33<roidal>having planes flying with 800km/h
13:33<roidal>and a setting that this is divided by 4
13:33<roidal>to get the simulated travel speed
13:34<MonkeyDrone>well, game engine is the game engine
13:34<MonkeyDrone>i'm just happy it works :P
13:34<roidal>i really like ottd and what motivated programmer have done with that :)
13:35<MonkeyDrone>hehe, aye, they have done some serious work and serious magic
13:39<MonkeyDrone>the CHIPS set is just eye candy right
13:40*andythenorth knows where the bodies are buried in CHIPS :P
13:41<@Alberth>no, it provides functional stations
13:41<andythenorth>MonkeyDrone: Squid Ate FISH contains a speed parameter iirc
13:41*andythenorth only made it, don’t expect facts
13:42<andythenorth>it’s only about 1.3x or 1.5x faster
13:42<MonkeyDrone>roidal can use it
13:42<MonkeyDrone>Roidal, try Squid Ate FISH. He's the one with the boat problems :D
13:42<MonkeyDrone>1.5x is better than 1.0
13:42<andythenorth>I think it’s a none-issue
13:43<@Alberth>nah, it's a pipeline, speed isn't relevant
13:43<andythenorth>just use more, smaller ships
13:43*andythenorth wonders what google search has against flickr
13:44<MonkeyDrone>flickr is so 90s
13:44<andythenorth>obviously it’s a Yahoo product, with no Google ads on it
13:44<andythenorth>I spend days on google images looking for stuff, and all I get is wikipedia, and results from tt-forums :P
13:44<andythenorth>then I find gold on flickr
13:44<andythenorth>maybe flickr is the dark web? o_O
13:44<MonkeyDrone>what were you looking for o.o
13:45<@Alberth>flickr reuiqres a zillion sites with scripts to display anything :(
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13:46<MonkeyDrone>sorting out citybuilder is going to be fun :D
13:46<MonkeyDrone>looks like i'll have to borrow someone's premade settings :D
13:47<MonkeyDrone>i googled 'Citybuilder settings wiki', Pharoah popped up on front page xD
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13:49<roidal>MonkeyDrone: i will take alook
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13:55<andythenorth>flickr is where all the train photos are :)
13:57<Wolf01>oh I see factorio on steam
13:59<MonkeyDrone>anyone has a city builder script template to share?
14:00<MonkeyDrone>noooo i think i'm using the wrong script, there's another called Simple City Builder gaem script
14:01<MonkeyDrone>thank you ST2
14:01<ST2>np :)
14:02<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, there are tons of cb scripts))
14:02<MonkeyDrone>aye, i just need the simple city builder script
14:02<MonkeyDrone>not looking for anything complicated :D
14:03<roidal>what is a city builder script?
14:03<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, well, that one is good, but not really simple))
14:04<MonkeyDrone>it's what i require for now :D Once i'm comfortable with this level, i'll move up in the world
14:04<ST2>compared with Aphid's CB, it's simple, yeah xD
14:04<MonkeyDrone>yeah, i was trying to configure Aphid's did not go so well
14:06<MonkeyDrone>Town Growth Mechanism : Normal or Expand, difference?
14:08<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, oh, I don't know where to even start explaining that %)
14:08<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, set to normal, expand is similar just not quite the same)
14:09<MonkeyDrone>expand i assume that the town tries to cover more ground faster than making buildings
14:09<MonkeyDrone>instead of increasing density, it takes over more land
14:10<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, nah, it's more about technical stuff, nomal uses normal mechanics, and expand tries to do the same with special house building command
14:10<MonkeyDrone>so what's better in terms of faster town growth?
14:11<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, can probably give you our settings for this gs btw
14:11<MonkeyDrone>no need to get into details, simple explanation will suffice how it affects the end-user
14:11<@Alberth>just try both?
14:11<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, neither should be faster, but expand probably is xD
14:11<MonkeyDrone>i plan on trying both, would just be nice to see what i should be looking out for
14:11<MonkeyDrone>hehe, expand shall be my first test run :D
14:12-!-Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a33e:4100:8cde:816d:f6f1:567c] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:13<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, there was no way to use normal mechanics in ttd before 1.4 or so, so expand is just an attempt to mimic it by other means
14:14<MonkeyDrone>so normal would be the default game mechanic that was coded for OpenTTD. Expand mimics the original TTD town growth?
14:15<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, yep, pretty much
14:16<MonkeyDrone>cool, thanks. I will go with expand and see how it goes and i agree this simple CB is not as simple as it is named xD
14:16<MonkeyDrone>these rows in settings need to be color coded xD
14:16<MonkeyDrone>half the time 'im just trying to find where i was
14:16<@Alberth>maybe the other ones are even more complicated? :p
14:17<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, here are settings for our 5k cb server:
14:17<_dp_>MonkeyDrone, ouch, no it's 30k
14:17<MonkeyDrone>yeahh simple CB works :D
14:18<MonkeyDrone>30k sounds nice
14:18<MonkeyDrone>saved :D i'll give it a test run in a sec
14:18<MonkeyDrone>and see what it looks like :D
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14:26<MonkeyDrone>x.x , downloading 80MB of addons on 4Mbps, yay
14:26<MonkeyDrone>server is online, just need to connect to it now
14:26<ST2>feel happy you didn't picked YETI :P
14:26<MonkeyDrone>what's wrong with YETI?
14:26<MonkeyDrone>i got FIRS up and running ...:D
14:27<ST2>couple hundreds of MB's, I think ^^
14:27<MonkeyDrone>i was looking at zbase....i can use it clientside even if server doesn't have it?
14:27<MonkeyDrone>that was like 200mb something
14:27<MonkeyDrone>32bit graphics
14:28<@Alberth>basesets are independent of server
14:28<MonkeyDrone>nice, i should grab zbase then
14:29<MonkeyDrone>looking forward to playing with NUTS, looks very nice with all the colors from what i've seen of it
14:30<MonkeyDrone>do you guys suffer from lag issues when the map is full of stuff?
14:31<MonkeyDrone>i've been playing on the reddit server #2, lots of mods on it. Can't use monorail or maglev trains on it apparently -.- so depressing but the server has become quiet laggy with so much going on across the map
14:35<MonkeyDrone>_dp_, i see your config now, looks good. i'm gonna mod it a bit to suit my needs ;D weee
14:35<sim-al2>Sometimes the boats are the problem, but too many trains and other vehicles cause the server to slow down
14:37<MonkeyDrone>slowing down is fine, as long as it's going smoothly, but jerky mouse movements ingame and skipping frames?
14:39<sim-al2>That seems to happen either if the connection is poor, or if you are nearly on the edge of being too slow
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14:43<MonkeyDrone>cpu speed could also be alimiting factor correct, i don't know what machine their server runs on
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14:44<sim-al2>I can't remember, but it's a good Intel quad core
14:44<MonkeyDrone>aye, but since the game is Single threaded, you need a stronger single core
14:45<MonkeyDrone>ah well, there is also a lot going on in that server, massive trains, its out of control xD
14:45<sim-al2>I see many boats on there, it's a little tiresome telling people to use buoys and being ignored
14:46<MonkeyDrone>yes, people actually went out of their ways to make more water i believe and setup oil rigs and stuff
14:46<MonkeyDrone>didn't know boats caused lag, game engine issue to do with water?
14:47<sim-al2>No, pathfinding gets exponetially higher as the distance the boat has to navigate increases
14:47<@Alberth>actually, the client desktop must be bigger than the server
14:47<sim-al2>Buoys seem to almost eliminate the problem, but people are lazy...
14:47<MonkeyDrone>ah, ok. Makes sense where the cpu juice is going.
14:48<@Rubidium>it's not ships per se, if you create a 1x1 grid of roads the busses will cause the same kind of problems
14:48<Pici>do planes have the same problem?
14:48<@Alberth>nope, they don't route at all :)
14:48<MonkeyDrone>i can totally understand the issue for the water, it has to traverse a lot more ground, trains it has tracks, so it's simple. Airplanes fly in straight lines , vehicles follow roads
14:49<MonkeyDrone>its the constant turning / recalculating. I understand that
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15:00*andythenorth hopes that photo owners don’t actually think flickr *can* prevent downloading the image files
15:00<andythenorth>spaceball.gif is a good hack, but the actual image still has to get to my browser...
15:02<Wolf01>it's like the ones who don't want the right mouse button enabled... you can only disable it with jscript... and you can force it disabling the jscript or simply pressing "shift"
15:05<@Alberth>The concept of having private data at the global Internet is a bit weird :p
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15:16<Milek7>i need GSCargoMonitor::GetIndustryDeliveryAmount but without company filter
15:22<frosch123>make a loop over the companies
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15:29*andythenorth has visited the ‘prototype for everything’ department
15:29<andythenorth>and come out with goodies
15:30<MonkeyDrone>what goodies we got santa?
15:30<andythenorth>only trains and stuff
15:30<MonkeyDrone>trains with wings?
15:34<Milek7>frosch123: i don't see company list in nogo api
15:35<@Alberth> second enum
15:35<@Alberth>COMPANY_FIRST, COMPANY_LAST, iirc
15:37<frosch123> <- there are dozen of examples if you look at other scripts
15:37<andythenorth>does this
15:37<andythenorth>look different enough to this
15:37<andythenorth>or boringly similar?
15:37<andythenorth>Iron Horse rosters, the trains need to be visually distinct
15:38<frosch123>one is blue
15:38<frosch123>the other is green
15:38<Milek7>frosch123: but company_first company_last are useless
15:39<frosch123>anyway, the green one has a proper driver cabin
15:39<Milek7>companies could be deleted
15:39<andythenorth>frosch123: so if I just use different colours… :P
15:39<andythenorth>also this one comes in a pack of two,%20MA%202_61.jpg
15:39<frosch123>Milek7: guess what, neither nocargoal nor silicon valley have problems dealing with that
15:39<frosch123>just look at other scrtips
15:39<andythenorth>and I’ll make the cab 2CC
15:40<@Alberth>if you don't make them available at the same time, there is no problem, I think
15:40<frosch123>andythenorth: most engines in some area seem to look the same
15:40<andythenorth>all have wheels etc
15:40<@Alberth>problem / confusion :p
15:41<andythenorth>most euro locos are boxes
15:41<@Alberth>and all wheels are round too :p
15:41<frosch123>so, make the colour progress together with the stats? :p
15:41<frosch123>also gets rid of cc :)
15:41<andythenorth>gen 1: red
15:41<andythenorth>gen 2: yellow
15:41<Milek7>frosch123: i can do it by checking isvalidcompany, but this is ridiculous
15:41<frosch123>here old engines are green
15:41<frosch123>then they turn black
15:41<frosch123>and then red
15:42<@Alberth>Milek7: yep, programming APIs are ridiculous :)
15:42<@Alberth>alternatively, you can build your own list of valid companies
15:42<@Alberth>frosch123: haha :)
15:47<andythenorth>this roster has only 4 locomotives
15:47<andythenorth>and their names all begin with B :o
15:47<andythenorth>unintentional :P
15:48<andythenorth>is that bad?
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15:52<frosch123>you raise expectations for the other letters
15:52<@Alberth>Bad ass engines :p
15:55<@Rubidium>andythenorth: or make a new roster every year with themes starting with a particular letter
15:55<luaduck>hey folks, getting a really weird error on one of our production servers
15:55<luaduck>getaddrinfo for hostname "f", port 3989, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
15:56<luaduck>the only thread I can find on the forum says it's from using the -f command line option, but that was back from like 2010 when I'm guessing fork wasn't implemented
15:56<andythenorth>Rubidium: 26 years if I stick to Latin? :o
15:57<@Rubidium>andythenorth: ought to be enough, right?
15:58<@Rubidium>luaduck: you probably started OpenTTD with ./openttd -Df as parameter or something[4~
15:58-!-sim-al2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:58<@Rubidium>which could be just a simple typo, but that effectively puts f in the list of hosts to bind on
15:59<@Rubidium>luaduck: clear the content of server_bind_addresses
16:00<luaduck>huh, fixed it
16:00<luaduck>why would that randomly pop up?
16:00<frosch123>getaddrinfo was the function of the week, wasn't it? :p
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>that was already more than one week ago, right?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no, pretty much exactly one week
16:03<frosch123>well, the cve number was from 2015
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>well... responsible disclosure and stuff
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16:07<luaduck>oh, so it was a glibc flaw?
16:07<frosch123>i don't think so :)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>luaduck: that has probably nothing to do with your issue :p
16:08<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Rubidium: 26 years if I stick to Latin? <-- seems to work for QI so far :p
16:09<andythenorth>bah, all the engines I want to draw look similar
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>make more engines that you don't want :p
16:10<andythenorth>looks like this?
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>it should be much shorter
16:11<andythenorth>but the gestalt is the same? Fundamentally?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot do rosters by that rule...
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>half of the engines of each country look the same
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>like almost all modern german engines use the same chassis design
16:12<andythenorth>but I have generations 25-30 years apart
16:13<andythenorth>and 1 express, 1 heavy freight, 1 branch line
16:13<andythenorth>seems silly to make them look similar? o_O
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>make them differ in small details
16:14<andythenorth>I think you are helping me rationalise a poor decision :)
16:14<andythenorth>but I can always change the sprites later :P
16:14<andythenorth>I am drawing what I like from RL, not what the roster needs
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>hence my first statement :p
16:19<andythenorth>I’m also trying not repeat engine shapes from British Iron Horse :P
16:19<andythenorth>that might be a fool’s game
16:19<andythenorth>there are only 3 or so shapes for diesel engines
16:27<@Alberth>do you need more than 3 diesel engines?
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16:34<FLHerne>JGR: Good evening
16:35<FLHerne>I started playing with your excellent patchpack rather than my flaky old home-bodged one, but there seems to be an issue with town-cargo production
16:35<FLHerne>Alberth: Good evening to you too :-)
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16:38<FLHerne>A city of 5000 people produces about 1500 passengers/month, one of 1000 people produces about 100/month. The non-linearity makes it hard to justify a decent service to small towns without massive overloading from the big cities
16:39<FLHerne>Perhaps it's supposed to be that way - in that case, what do I need to tweak?
16:39<_dp_>FLHerne, it's also random as hell
16:40<andythenorth>Alberth: I need at least 9000
16:40<andythenorth>or about 7
16:40<andythenorth>if anyone wants to play past year 2000 or so, I need another 3 maybe
16:41<@Alberth>how come this isn't a problem with steam engines?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>4 generations
16:42<andythenorth>steam engines look different
16:42<andythenorth>must diesels are about 22m long and look like a box
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: more technical details shine to the surface with steam engines
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>tender/tank, wheel arrangement, ...
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16:44<Eddi|zuHause>whereas with diesel, it's all hidden under the chassis
16:44<@Alberth>boring :)
16:45<@Alberth>or realistic :p
16:47<sim-al2>Not withstanding the European DMUs with engine(s) occupying a part of the would-be passenger compartment
16:47<@Alberth>get inspired by the animal name of the engine?
16:49<andythenorth>I would end up going NUTS :)
16:49<andythenorth>sim-al2: still just a box...
16:49<sim-al2>Yeah, they all are though :p
16:49<@Alberth>less diesel then?
16:50<@Alberth>or smaller variations, longer cabins, different chimney psition
16:51*andythenorth screenshots
16:51<@Alberth>different windows in the cabins
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16:55<andythenorth>Alberth can tell these apart?
16:56<sim-al2>Those look great
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of difference there
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17:01<andythenorth>and yet I drew nothing new :)
17:01<andythenorth>literally just moved existing pixel
17:01<andythenorth>pixels *
17:02<@Alberth>like FIRS buildings :p
17:02<@Alberth>look fine to me
17:02<andythenorth>ok good :)
17:03<@Alberth>good night
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18:56<drac_boy>correct me if I'm wrong but say you made a trainset that had both a reefer van and a goods van .. you could code it that if an industry grf exists with this class then the goods van would only take fruit but if the class isn't present then the goods van can accept being refitted to food too
18:56<drac_boy>(sorry if I maybe couldn't make it more clear?)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>that may be possible, but tricky to get right if it gets more complicated
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>a better example would be a car transporter that refits to goods only if no vehicles are defined
19:21<drac_boy>just curious how far it could had gone so..thanks
19:22<drac_boy>aha yeah I think I've seen that and sometimes found it odd yet reasonable .. a car ferry that can't carry cars at all for example :)
19:22<drac_boy>(probably better than a vehicle that can't refit to any cargos and so just becomes a buylist clutter)
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>those vehicles are automatically removed from the buy list
19:25<drac_boy>even then sometimes some vehicles do bring on their own slight oddity (my own opinion) such as who would want to stuff livestock into a tanker car :P
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>that was meant to represent milk :p
19:29<drac_boy>why does a butcher want milk?? ha ;)
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19:31<drac_boy>anyway, at least I only have a simple cargoclass list to work with and not many wagons so I don't need to bother thinking about this least I had to ask anyhow
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19:50<supermop>in the last couple of days chrome seems to be eating my computer, even with only one tab open
19:50<supermop>so here i am browsing with ie until i figure out what is going on
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>malware? antivirus (hardly a difference)? memleak?
19:51<supermop>seems to be a memory thing
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19:52<supermop>i don't know if i have it in me to solve
19:52<supermop>as it is a 6 year old computer
19:52<supermop>but... i've yet to find a laptop that i like the looks of as much so maybe we should soldier on
19:54<supermop>about a yea ago i had an issue where norton av was running my cpu to the point of causing computer to shut down due to overheating
19:54<drac_boy>well norton does have a bad rap thats still being difficult to get rid of
19:54<drac_boy>as for browser, no clue .. I've never touched smelly ones personally sorry
19:56<supermop>used to use opera but gave up on it a few year back due to high ram usage ironically
19:57<supermop>bizarrely enough, ie seems to be doing ok so far
19:57<supermop>kinda looks ugly though
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>frankly, there's about 10 other things i'd try before internet explorer :p
20:02<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: it was already on my computer
20:02<supermop>open to suggestions though
20:02<supermop>on browsers or hardware
20:02<supermop>my dilemma is this:
20:03<supermop>rather multi-lemma
20:03<drac_boy>supermop, "multi-lemma"?
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a "bilemma" :p
20:03<supermop>i've used a very small but very powerful laptop for over a decade - first one vaio, then this, for 5+ years each
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have a hard time imagining there to be hardware limitations to browsing...
20:04<supermop>and i eenjoy the portability, but for architectural work, a desktop seems more sensible in these days with multiple graphics cards
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20:05<supermop>also sony stopped the vaio line and no one else seems to think this is a niche worth persuing (likely correct since sony lost money on the higher end vaios)
20:05<drac_boy>supermop oh ok
20:06<supermop>also: the software i use is best, or only runs on, windows, not osx or linux
20:07<supermop>but new computers seem to all have 10, which i would be ok with, but does not seem to be supported
20:07<drac_boy>supermop either way I've only helped with midori often and the infrequent alternative or sleipnir instead. haven't tried installing it for others yet but I've heard k-meleon seem to be good too
20:07<supermop>i guess autocad works on 10, but rhino does not recommend it
20:07<drac_boy>take that suggestion on your own if you want to ^
20:07<supermop>drac_boy: i assume those are 'nix flavors?
20:07<drac_boy>or=of* stupid keys
20:07<drac_boy>supermop..nope two are windows only
20:09<supermop>basically - if there was an obvious new computer to buy i'd just buy it and not waste any mental or emotional engergy on the browser headaches of an old machine
20:09<drac_boy>sleipnir has the interesting feature of supporting two engines natively so if a site wouldn't render in non-trident you can actually render it with trident instead (for real, not just simply impose itself as IE in the id string)
20:09<drac_boy>but as I haven't used it much I can't really say a lot tho
20:10<supermop>is it stil possible to buy win7 or 8?
20:10<drac_boy>yeah lot of stores still have 8 retail here, not sure about your area tho
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>can't you just buy 10 and downgrade it to 7?
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's how it used to work previously
20:10<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: did you do that?
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't owned a windows since XP
20:11<supermop>don't think i ever saw evidence to the effect of you being windows or non windows, but i always assumed you didn't use it
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>you probably missed loads of cues then :p
20:12<supermop>always had the impression you were a mathematician and thus not bound to it by software
20:12<drac_boy>btw eddi the only one problem I've seen a few reports cropping up on is that *if* you had used a non-retail win10 disc to upgrade your computer, ms literally invalids your prior COA
20:12<drac_boy>kinda a bit annoying behvaiour if you ask me
20:13<supermop>odd that no one on the forums mentioned this morning's NS crash
20:14<supermop>my brother told me about it right after i woke up
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i don't know what that means. but i meant when you buy a computer that comes with win10, you can use that license to get from microsoft an earlier version of windows for free
20:14<drac_boy>ah ok different then ^
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>that may be limited to the professional lines
20:15<drac_boy>before it used to be that eg if you bought non-retail to upgrade xp to 7 you then has an unused xp key to keep for elsewhere .. but now with win10 you pretty much forfeit your older COA for good as soon as you agree to the eula or so
20:15<drac_boy>but I've only seen a few reports so I'm not sure if its standard or not
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that may be a side effect of the free upgrade
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, burying weird clauses like that in an EULA might be illegal
20:17<drac_boy>could be that yeah, makes sense
20:17<supermop>wouldn't hold up in court, even here
20:17<supermop>iff you have the cash to take it to court
20:17<drac_boy>and hey eddi, you're not quite the only one. I stopped with ms right at xp generation too
20:19<drac_boy>supermop yeah some europe countries have more exactly laws about fair consumer rights and I applaud them :)
20:20<supermop>hmm as per usual i seem to be about half a stone better at go after a few beers
20:20<drac_boy>also I forgot the exact wording but I believe there was the "it does what I had purchased it for otherwise I can get a refund" clause in the law too ... eg sony wouldn't had been able to sell with myos then strip it without any notification
20:21<drac_boy>maybe someone who does live in europe would actually know the specific clause I've heard about
20:23<supermop>nevermind the above statement
20:23<drac_boy>supermop not quite related but I remember a silly Garfield comic strip ....
20:24<supermop>ok re-mind it
20:24<drac_boy>basically the cat went NOTHINGLIKEAGOODCUPOFCOFFEEINTHEMORNINGYESSSIR! in a 2-box-wide thought bubble from left to middle .. we see the wide-eye cat with cup in middle .. and john to the right was basically saying "I need to cut you off from caffine"
20:25<drac_boy>talk about being too jolted to even space out your words :)
20:26<luaduck>I'm writing a plugin that automatically kicks someone if they join a company (yeah it sounds stupid but I'm simplifying it for the purposes of this question)
20:27<drac_boy>luaduck better question: why aren't you using a password?
20:27<drac_boy>just asking
20:27<luaduck>if I rcon kick them as soon as I get the notification that they joined, players desync
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20:27<luaduck>drac_boy: like I said, oversimplification (it actually kicks people that join with a default name)
20:27<luaduck>think it's reasonable to add like a 1s delay before kicking?
20:28<drac_boy>luaduck not trying to impose themself into the game but just rather these that keep showing up with only Player # nicks?
20:28<luaduck>I'm guessing some clients don't quite catch up to which company they're in
20:28<luaduck>drac_boy: correct
20:28<drac_boy>I see, I never understood the dumb people that can't bother looking at that one text field in top of the game lobby window
20:28<luaduck>I actually just pushed it
20:29<drac_boy>btw luaduck I could be wrong but as an intermidate measure too you could have an automatic script that would send a server message to a player every # cycle (say 30s?) that has the word 'Player' in name?
20:30<luaduck>it's set to notify them when they try to join
20:30<drac_boy>I think I saw at least one if not more busy server with this some time ago...or was it a plugin...not too sure
20:30<luaduck>it also tells them when they join
20:30<drac_boy>ah ok, just had to check
20:30<luaduck>but some people are too stupid to read that
20:30<luaduck>so they just spam the game with join/spectate messages
20:31<drac_boy>heh well luaduck you're probably right to want to kick them for being douch .. first not setting a name pre-game then keep joining anyway
20:31<luaduck>might escalate it to bans if people still don't read
20:31<luaduck>a kick should be enough to deter the casuals
20:31<drac_boy>I think I've seen at least one or more map that had Player, Player #2, etc up to Player #5 or 6 ... its just uhhhh just too makes-no-sense
20:33<Eddi|zuHause><luaduck> if I rcon kick them as soon as I get the notification that they joined, players desync <-- that sounds like a bug
20:33<luaduck>I'm not sure if it's a bug or just something that's a bit of a can't fix
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause>only going to find that out by reporting (or investigating)
20:34<luaduck>yeah I'll probably file something in bugspray tomorrow
20:34<drac_boy>luaduck also I kinda loved the actively-watched servers that has the admin going "hey you..yes YOU - stop absuing the map! ... # I said stop being rude .... ok goodbye! *kicks then deletes the whole company*" .. sometimes the same person comes back and suddenly becomes non-muted by complaining that he/she can't find company anymore
20:34<luaduck>speaking of good ideas, it'd be really neat if we could pop the red warning errors server side (possibly via admin port)
20:35<drac_boy>got to love people that think they can be "deaf" till its too late
20:35<luaduck>oh we have tonnes of those
20:35<sim-al2>Heh, more than enough
20:35<luaduck>good number of sleeper cells that build companies then start going fucking nuts
20:36<supermop>ok that game wasn't enough to get me back to 9k, but at least the opponent dropped from 9 to 10
20:37<supermop>what kind of server is this, luaduck ?
20:37<drac_boy>luaduck also don't you love the twats that try to throw up signs or empty rails simply because they "want" to have their own big station or extra-large airport in the future even if this means blocking a lot of town growth or (on non-level maps) blocking players from being able to build an unrelated route to elsewhere?
20:38<luaduck>supermop: we run the /r/openttd servers
20:38<drac_boy>at least one player as I recall built a small airport .. built tons of roads around it ("
20:38<supermop>haven't played multiplayer in a while
20:38<drac_boy>"for the town" he claims*) then also proceed to lay enough signs to build the most biggest hub airport
20:39<drac_boy>I mean .. come on ... wake up and think just 20 years ahead maybe, not 100!
20:40<sim-al2>Well. with 15 companies going you basically can't build a bigger airport after a few years
20:40<drac_boy>and hows your night (or whatever your time zone was again, i forgot) sim-a12?
20:40<sim-al2>Good, it's central time for me
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20:41<drac_boy>15 companies = probably a good time to actually use the thing called trains :)
20:41<sim-al2>There's plenty of those, people just insist on using planes
20:42<drac_boy>funny enough even with only being able to play alone in ttdxp I've often used train-plane links just like how the Lufthansa Airport Express and alike may have operated
20:43<drac_boy>nothing like the super-jet landing down 20 tiles far away from the residental houses .. and the passengers ending up near urban core by train
20:44<sim-al2>I do like cargo dist for that, makes airports make much more sense
20:45<drac_boy>only maybe tried that thing in a special ottd game once or twice ... dunno if I liked it a lot especially when it piled too many passengers at a strange out-of-the-way small station :-/
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20:46<drac_boy>weirdly enough simutrans seem to have a more reliable method that can sort out small direct station vs indirect large station and often deliever them to the latter instead
20:47<drac_boy>dunno tbh, different game engines after all
20:48<drac_boy>either way supermop good luck with the browsers anyhow. luaduck have fun keeping these idiots out more often if you would. and eddi I still dunno why a butcher wants lot of milk ha. and finally sim-a12 see you another time ok? going sleep soon here :-s
20:48<drac_boy>sorry about leaving mid-chat but meh .. got an early morning to deal with tomorrow :-s
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>i wasn't planning on answering that question...
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21:32<supermop>not sure why there isn't a desire to see 2 or three aspect signals alongside 4 aspect
21:33<supermop>would save me having to build a 3 signals in a row where a branch joins or on certain entries into junctions
21:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, 2 is kinda already in, and i'd like 3 but i didn't want to bring it up, because it would lead to the discussion about additional signal types
21:36<supermop>over several hours with this game ive been able to adapt to the long reservations in most cases, but there are certain areas where it is just unworkable
21:37<supermop>but a slow train shouldn't need to reserve so many blocks
21:38<supermop>especially if it is already moving at the "yellow" speed, it shouldn't need to reserve more than a yellow signal, ie one block
21:40<supermop>otherwise my little mountain railbus doing 50kmh reserves a path all the way down the mountain, across a mainline junction, into a platform at the hauptbanhhof as soon as it turns around at end of line
21:41<supermop>the discussion about yellow speeds in % or constant values is tricy i guess
21:44<supermop>i guess you want a fast train following a slow train to match the speed of the train ahead, but you'd also want a 160kmh to stay at 160kmh if it booked a path into the rear of a a 180kmh train
21:46<supermop>tbh i can probably survive without yellow signals at all, it just looks so much better
21:47<supermop>i've been placing block signals before path signals where i need to make sure a train cannot reserve too far in advance and lock up a station throat
21:48<supermop>i can't tell yet if long reservations improve 3-track lines or not, even after hours of observation. slightly lean towards yes
21:49<supermop>those may need signals that 'turn off' instead, like on the 3 track elevated lines here
21:51<supermop>basically, an arbitrarily long reservation with no backwards signal penalty
21:53<supermop>so that once a train enters the center track, it faces a normal run of signals but no train can enter from the otherside, instead of the current approach where you must ensure <<<>>> and never >>><<<
21:55<sim-al2>It'll look nice with long heavy trains, where the instant stop behavior is really noticable
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 24 00:00:14 2016