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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-27

---Logopened Sat Feb 27 00:00:18 2016
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01:24<andythenorth>o/
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03:12-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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03:16<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:16<@Alberth>moin andy
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04:10<_johannes>hello
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05:14<@Alberth>o/
05:14<frosch123>moi
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05:23<Wolf01>o/
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05:25<andythenorth>if I add the water tanker to this, it’s 1.5 tiles long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_GMA_4-8-2%2B2-8-4#/media/File:Class_GMAM_4079_(4-8-2%2B2-8-4).JPG
05:25<andythenorth>too much?
05:26<Wolf01>did you manage to articulate it properly?
05:27<@Alberth>would be quite unique, at least
05:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: yeah, it’s articulated ok
05:27<andythenorth>not perfect, but good enough
05:29<frosch123>whats the thing in the front?
05:29<@Alberth>/me guesses watertank
05:32<andythenorth>watertank
05:32<andythenorth>and more water behind
05:32<Wolf01>water gets depleted in no time, more is better
05:34<Wolf01>nice, it seem you even run that thing backwards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_GMA_4-8-2%2B2-8-4#/media/File:SAR_Class_GMAM_4122_%284-8-2%2B2-8-4%29.jpg
05:36<andythenorth>yup
05:36*andythenorth implements that in IH
05:41<andythenorth>bah
05:41<andythenorth>harder than I thought
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05:47<andythenorth>or not
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05:57<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7665/antelope_6.png
05:58<Wolf01>wow, nice
05:59<Wolf01>does it bend in the middle of the tank?
06:00<Wolf01>maybe in the point where is the notch just right the black part
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06:03<andythenorth>it is 4 parts
06:05<@Alberth>+1
06:05<Wolf01>+2
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06:06<AdmiralKewl>sexy
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>maybe needs a shorter scale
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06:12<andythenorth>two of them make 3 tiles
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06:14<andythenorth>I think it’s too long tbh
06:14<AdmiralKewl>super long trans-continental trains maybe?
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06:16<andythenorth>I need to scope a random switch to first part of an articulated vehicle
06:17<andythenorth>i.e. I want same random bits for all articulated parts
06:17<andythenorth>I have to count?
06:21<@Alberth>1, 2, many
06:22<andythenorth>I have to count :P
06:22<andythenorth>my code says I encountered this before
06:23<@Alberth>it also tells you the solution? that would really nice of it
06:23<@Alberth>+be
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06:23<Eddi|zuHause>position in vehid chain % total length
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06:49*andythenorth solved
07:06<frosch123>i think we have a variable "position in articulated vehicle"
07:07<andythenorth>I recall talking about it
07:08<andythenorth>my IDs are sequential, incremeing by 1 from lead part, and so I just solved it in the compile
07:16<andythenorth>unusual
07:16<andythenorth>the depot view has merged an engine and a freight car
07:16<andythenorth>and I can’t separate them at all
07:18<andythenorth>ID collision :D
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07:24<smint>any openttd developer here ?
07:25<@Alberth>just ask the question usually works better
07:26<@Alberth>so much for sequential IDs, andy :)
07:28<andythenorth>coder error :)
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07:29<smint>Ah ok. here it goes then. I'm looking for a simplest way how to use the in game events for generating messages that would be sent (in a predefined format) to a web location via json or with other data type. That would require to probably script some events like train Y has arrived, departed from station X , loaded 10 persons, unloaded 20 persons and so on
07:30<Wolf01>mmmh, why nobody told me that translating before drawing would simplify A LOT the things?
07:30<smint>I would like to create a super dense scenario that would help me simulate real traffic and populate our DB with real time data for analysis
07:31<smint>Any ideas ?
07:31<@Alberth>that's a lot of detail
07:32<smint>I could have a external app programmed ancapsulating it into right format but I need to get it out of ttd
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07:33<@Alberth>there is an admin port thing, but afaik it's more oriented towards higher level monitoring
07:34<@Alberth>my guess is that "simplest" would be printf() in the source code at the right spot
07:35<@Alberth>not sure it would be useful, it's a lot of data
07:35<smint>I need a lot of data generated to simulate real life environment - 1000 events per second roughly
07:36<smint>I was thinking if any of the api's have a way to tap into this event handlers
07:37<@Alberth>afaik external connections don't go down to train arrivals and cargo movements
07:37<@Alberth>even Squirrel scripts don't work at that level
07:37<@Alberth>ie the AI and game scripts
07:38<@Alberth>you can eg ask for cumulative cargo deliveries since the last time you queried, but that's the lowest I know
07:39<@Alberth>but that API doesn't get outside
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07:40<smint>too bad really - i thought there might be something out there that woulc allow such external monitoring
07:40<@Alberth>openttd itself also doesn't have a reason to do so, it doesn't add to game play, and it needs its CPU power for running trains
07:41<smint>I know it is way beyond orignal intentions ... I want to use it as a simulator rather than a game
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07:42<@Alberth>you're not the first to try that :)
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07:43<smint>you know anyone that succeeded ? :)
07:43<@Alberth>for some value of "success", sure they have :p
07:44<@Alberth>but you're one of the first to want generating stuff for outside the engine, at least at this level of detail
07:44<@Alberth>I'd start with a few simple "printf" calls to generate a data stream, and go from there
07:45<smint>perhaps that is not such bad idea
07:46<smint>for starters
07:46<smint>Thanks for your help
07:46<@Alberth>yw
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07:52<andythenorth>drawing trains is fun
07:52*andythenorth should have made a train set years ago
07:56<@Alberth>:)
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09:15<_johannes>once you've started a game, and later think that you'd like to enable some newgrf trains, is it somehow possible to make them available?
09:16<@Alberth>no
09:17<_johannes>:´-(
09:17<_johannes>I have a very old map, and now I really miss some new trains on it
09:17<_johannes>can't it be easily done by binary hacking?
09:18<_johannes>or writing a small converter?
09:18<@Alberth>easily, no
09:18<andythenorth>YOU CAN ENABLE SOME TOOLS!!
09:18<andythenorth>oops
09:18<andythenorth>caps
09:18<@Alberth>newgrf and other game data is very much intertwined
09:18<_johannes>just need trains :)
09:18<Wolf01>developer tools + resetengines, but don't report problems
09:19<_johannes>what kind of problems are expectable?
09:19<Wolf01>*everything*
09:19<_johannes>:P
09:19<@Alberth>anything between no problem, a crash, to seemingly working until xx years later something wonky happens
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09:20<Wolf01>usually it's like when you are sitting on a chair and somebody takes it
09:22<@Alberth>data gets spread to everywhere, it's not just adding a few more entries in a table
09:23<_johannes>I can not imagine what kind of data you're talking about...
09:26<_johannes>a different question: does sending a train into the depot cost money?
09:27<_johannes>i.e. do I pair for the people repairing the train and making it more reliable?
09:27<@Alberth>doesn't cost money
09:27<@Alberth>only time
09:27<@Alberth>unless you have an autoreplace or autorenew set for it :p
09:27<_johannes>i.e. there are no disadvantages if I keep a train all day long in a depot?
09:28<_johannes>you mean if it stands there 20 years, it gets renewed without a good reason?
09:28<@Alberth>hmm, maybe you pay running cost
09:28<_johannes>no, I tested it, it does not cost money
09:29<_johannes>the reliability goes down, but it goes up if the train leaves again
09:29<@Alberth>autorenew may only work when you enter the depot, or if you press some button on the depot, but not sure
09:30<@Alberth>I tend to leave the trains driving around :)
09:30<_johannes>I thought about shunting trains... they would, most of their time, wait in a depot
09:30<_johannes>and as it seems, it does not harm too much
09:30<@Alberth>running cost may be controlled by newgrf iirc, so different sets may have different ideas about it
09:31<@Alberth>they age, mostly, which influences rating of a serviced town a bit
09:32<_johannes>you mean passengers dislike it if I send old trains to their stations?
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09:33<drac_boy>hi
09:33<_johannes>hi
09:33<drac_boy>sorry had some issues last night, hope didn't miss anything major :->
09:33<drac_boy>hows you johannes?
09:34<_johannes>I'm fine, how're you?
09:34<drac_boy>doing ok for now, just going between online and re working on some plastics a bit
09:34<drac_boy>not much else for today yet
09:35<@Alberth>_johannes: https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating second entry
09:37<_johannes>so it is only relevant if the train's age is less than 3?
09:37<_johannes>my most trains are way older...
09:37<drac_boy>of course I guess a porsche carrera has nothing to do with the game but ah well :->
09:40<@Alberth>maybe use the supercars newgrf? :)
09:44<andythenorth>drac_boy: you did miss quite a lot
09:44<andythenorth>it was sad that you couldn’t be here
09:44<drac_boy>alberth heh guess that maybe would be indeed funny after all. a car with only room for 3 passengers
09:45<@Alberth>is very nice 1st class transport :)
09:45<@Alberth>I think in RL it might even work :)
09:46<@Alberth>bit costly though :)
09:46<drac_boy>well RL at least has the concept of taxi services :p
09:48<@Alberth>RL people are too lazy :)
09:49<drac_boy>or you always can go to a few countries (I recall at least italy and united arab) for an example of super cars being used as police cruisers
09:49<drac_boy>heh
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09:51<andythenorth>this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_91-000#/media/File:SAR_Class_91-000_91-003_BF.jpg
09:51<andythenorth>outperforms this in RL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_NG_G16_2-6-2%2B2-6-2#/media/File:SAR_Class_NG_G16_113_(2-6-2%2B2-6-2).JPG
09:51<andythenorth>which looks odd in game
09:52<andythenorth>because “bigger = stronger”
09:53<@Alberth>different technologies
09:54<@Alberth>if people complain, you can always blame reality :p
09:55*andythenorth is making a problem out of nothing :)
09:55<andythenorth>current Iron Horse already does this multiple times
09:55<@Alberth>well, it should have some niche usage
09:58<drac_boy>alberth heh well 1937 and 1973 dates are very far apart even for the game? even then I probably would had been keeping the G17 for as long as their profits were doing nice but thats me :)
09:59<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7666/antelope_7.png
09:59<andythenorth>the steam loco has more tractive effort, the diesel is faster and has more HP
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09:59<@Alberth>sounds good
10:00<andythenorth>in RL the steam engine had many wheels to spread weight
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10:00<andythenorth>they rebuilt the track for the diesels to take more weight
10:00<andythenorth>that detail I *do not* want in game :P
10:00<drac_boy>no A1A trucks? ;)
10:02<drac_boy>but heh yeah I don't think rail weight should be a factor in the game .. speed limits seem more than reasonable enough infill for now
10:06<andythenorth>maybe that diesel should be longer
10:15<drac_boy>I think so, two of them shouldn't be still looking shorter than the G16
10:15<andythenorth>two of them are same length
10:15<drac_boy>48ft for G16 vs 34ft or 68ft for 91
10:16<drac_boy>just my thought anyway
10:16<drac_boy>always could insert a few pixels between the radiator and cab and see how that works
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10:18<andythenorth>I think I leave it
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10:47<drac_boy>oh almost forgot, there any particular reasonable limit on rail vehicle size and/or length?
10:47<drac_boy>(I recall the size was somewhat capped to avoid tunnel/bridge issues if thats right)
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10:50<andythenorth>pikka has double-height pax cars that don’t clip in tunnels afaict
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10:59<drac_boy>hmm which grf?
11:00<@Alberth>perhaps pineapple?
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11:08<andythenorth>NARS 2
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11:27<drac_boy>going make some lunch now but thanks anyhow. guess will see what happens to the sprites later
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11:33<_johannes>is it possible to get a tile with TRACKDIR_BEGIN in IterateTiles ? that probably should not happen, right?
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11:34<_johannes>ah nvm, it's a memory bug
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>TRACKDIR_BEGIN is just another name for one of the trackdirs, right?
11:36<_johannes>it seems to be only used for iterating over them
11:36<_johannes>it's the first one
11:39<@Alberth>TRACKDIR_BEGIN    =  0 <-- Doesn't look like a valid track :)
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12:02<_johannes>can the costs of Yapf be negative?
12:02<_johannes>I think I just got this as an output...
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12:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, pathfinder costs can never be negative
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>you get endless loops that way
12:04<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: good point, since it's an A*, but might there be some post-computations on the nodes that modify their costs?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>what would that do?
12:05<_johannes>hmm don't know, though I don'T see such computations
12:09<Monkey_>why do we not have volcanos in this game?
12:10<Monkey_>it could be an industry, geothermal energy :P
12:11<frosch123>there was once
12:11<frosch123>ottd up to 0.6 had seismic activity
12:11<Monkey_>well uranium making batteries work too i suppose in yeti :D
12:11<Monkey_>what happened to have it removed?
12:12<frosch123>the ai was replaced with a better one
12:12<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: ok, I just read a comment saying negative costs are allowed for the start tile :)
12:13<Monkey_>and volcanos were never coded back in i assume
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12:15<@Alberth>nobody coded an AI that did random terraforming :)
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13:08*andythenorth such box cars
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13:14<andythenorth>come back snail
13:14<andythenorth>I have questions
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes: that should probably read "you can have negative weights for tiles that you can never enter". which basically still amounts to "you cannot have negative weights"
13:33<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's probably the idea... the start node will never be entered
13:33<_johannes>I still wonder why 0 does not suffice for the start node
13:33<_johannes>but there's probably a good reason
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause>you should still make sure that all weights are >0
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13:39<_johannes>Eddi|zuHause: all other nodes I've tested have weights > 0
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15:14<andythenorth>bye
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18:39<drac_boy>hi
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18:46<sim-al2>I found the real-world equivalent of a B-train shorty: https://tinyurl.com/h3rr9gz
18:48<drac_boy>or just about any ore cars in north america too? http://www.american-rails.com/images/353xNxTaconite9s320.jpg.pagespeed.ic.kdnAsP-WPw.jpg
18:48<drac_boy>not so shorty locomotives tho but heh
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18:52<drac_boy>oh yeah almost forgot to tell you, I don't recall where I saw it but theres one small usa company that really takes the truck off eg a SD70M and literally make it into a little 3-axle locomotive by itself
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18:52<drac_boy>bit of a strange one to look at heh
18:54<drac_boy>ah wait found it again, http://www.tractivepowercorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IMG_2945-e1452321760599.jpg
18:55<drac_boy>even seem they chopped some of the body pieces off something else too
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19:02<drac_boy>so, what're you doing? more bve or something else by now
19:07<Wolf01>'night
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19:14<sim-al2>Oh just dinner
19:18<sim-al2>drac_boy: It appears to be an older EMD bogie, the cab could be any EMD switcher design, and the other parts seem to be EMD also
19:19<sim-al2>It looks well-built, even with a rather unusual frame design
19:21<sim-al2>They call it the TP56. 375 hp, 80 tons
19:22<drac_boy>yeah, probably the only time I've seen a rigid chassis locomotive in usa (outside the very old industrial davenport etc that is)
19:22<sim-al2>56000-70000 lbs (249 kN to 311 kN) TE
19:24<drac_boy>which of about small, this seem to be a rather common small diesel unit to model http://img.xooimage.com/files86/8/d/d/drgw50-3870585.jpg .. just look up any stores that does S scale or colorado-biased HO/N and you'll likely always find this
19:25<sim-al2>There's been a few, but B-B has always been preferred, probably since they will handle tighter curves, always good when you are mass producing a design
19:25<drac_boy>talk about just a few units in real life turning out to be several hundreds in the modeller's world (but then again same can be said for Lionel's S2 turbine locomotive too)
19:26<drac_boy>about tighter curves, can you believe that sometimes gave steam a little bit of a problem? heh
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19:27<sim-al2>Yeah, the Shays were favored among the logging and mine railroads, since regular designs had trouble
19:27<sim-al2>There were other geared locomotives too, like the Climax
19:27<drac_boy>I recall one article (don't recall which city) about a particular line that was normally assigned between two locomotives to work it and crews often prefer the shorter one pointing west but even then one curve always had the cab roof grinding into the tender frame and sometimes snapped past with a big TWACK
19:28<drac_boy>talk about not wanting to have your hand close to that roof!
19:28<sim-al2>Hmmm, that doesn't sound safe...
19:28<drac_boy>well this was during the 1930-1940's period so some things 'just were normal'
19:29<sim-al2>Of course big companies used to get away with a lot more, but that sounds like a great way to derail the tender
19:30<drac_boy>well as long as the locomotive was pointing in the right direction it kept doing that curve countless times without any hiccup...but yeah I don't know who thought to leave such a route there
19:31<sim-al2>I suppose just having the slack pulled out was enough, sounds like the curve needed to be eased a bit..
19:31<drac_boy>there is one other railroad where tight curvations just was the normal so baldwin actually built the locomotive to handle it even if it did look drunkly weird doing it...one moment
19:33<sim-al2>Apparently even 8 coupled could work on tight curves, if designed correctly
19:33<sim-al2>There were a lot of 2-8-2s built
19:37<drac_boy>https://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/uintah50.php that sums up its story and http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/file.php?1,file=14682,filename=Uintah_50e.jpg shows what looks like a painfully sharp curve to any 'normal' locomotive
19:37<drac_boy>the line is shared by shay locomotive on other schedules too interestingly enough
19:38<drac_boy>I'm not sure where this photo is online now but baldwin even took a photo showing the boiler almost completely hovering mid-air just to demonstrate how much the front chassis could swing without harm :->
19:39<sim-al2>Sixty-six degrees!
19:40<sim-al2>Holy crap
19:40<drac_boy>yeah you don't need to know the number to see that the curve in the jpg is really tight :->
19:40<sim-al2>A sharp mainline curve would be around 12 degrees
19:41<sim-al2>26.5 meter radius
19:41<sim-al2>That would be tight even for a tram
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19:44<drac_boy>btw slight related but before the interurban bust started taking hold in late 30's or post-war there were actually a few freight companies that had slight shorty boxcars with very little underriggings (and the usual "NOT FOR INTERCHANGE" labels) due to operating through the curb curves that would had hung up the normal boxcars
19:45<drac_boy>the trucks could swing freely, don't doubt that there was nothing stopping one from doing 360 degree
19:45<sim-al2>Yeah, the interurban cars seem to have special coupler mountings and other such features
19:47<sim-al2>Looking through the old books on Google Books and archive.org, the interurban cars were in many ways much more advanced than mainlines of the time
19:48<sim-al2>Electro-pnuematic brake controls, graduated release brakes, automatic traction controllers
19:48<drac_boy>btw some of the systems even had curved ends almost like the 1950's road trailers had .. made sense considering the curves
19:49<drac_boy>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ptbMWEh6f5o/T-NPaKpuhfI/AAAAAAAABrI/HPkPWbZglZ8/s1600/CERA_v20120621.png
19:49<drac_boy>and look at that coupler..wouldn't be surprised if it was a tram-style link bar
19:49<sim-al2>I suppose that added just a little more capacity, always nice since length is constrained
19:50<drac_boy>yeah sometimes the ex-interurban wagons reassigned to mainline service were always too noticeable from their shorter chassis or other visible things
19:51<drac_boy>same happened to two particular interurban coaches that ended up on BC passenger service, their narrow width were a bit funny
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19:51<drac_boy>and btw you're right, even some electric locomotives pretty much started with things borrowed from trolleys too
19:52<drac_boy>there was someone who got a ride on a GG1 and said he was laughing so much when it moved off for the first time because it sounded exactly like a trolley including the clang-clang noise
19:52<sim-al2>Locomotives seemed to stay with manual-advance control long after the trams and interurbans went to automatic-advance
19:53<sim-al2>Yeah, not too much going, I think those locomotives used field-weakening to start since they were straight AC
19:54<drac_boy>by any chance would this also have to do with the transition controllers on some earlier diesel locomotives too?
19:54<sim-al2>But that imposed a time limitation just like a resistance-controlled machine would face, as overheating could happen
19:55<sim-al2>No, the transition on the diesels was needed because the generators had voltage vs current limitations
19:56<sim-al2>Particularly a maximum voltage that could be sustained, because a high current output was needed at low speeds
19:57<sim-al2>But as speed increases, the voltage couldn't increased further
19:58<sim-al2>So the motors would be in a series-parallel configuration (I believe the bogies would be in series, with the motors of each bogie in parallel)
19:58<drac_boy>well I recall a few examples where the transition refused to work leaving the locomotive stuck with only the lower range. got to love that?
19:59<drac_boy>even c&nw once had one geep that wouldn't make transition so after limping into another station another geep was added but ... umm ops nope it doesn't want to either so the whole train basically kept going at only 35mph the rest of the way
19:59<sim-al2>And transition would allow the motors to be placed in parallel, where the limitations of the generator were less of a problem at high speed
19:59<drac_boy>and about curves, heres another interurban freight route and umm that does look sharp for some normal wagons https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/83/b8/82/83b882d7bded1d6091263db3bab4bf9f.jpg
20:00<sim-al2>Hmm yeah, I believe output to the traction motors will fall if the locomotive can't make transition
20:00<sim-al2>(if speed increases, like other locomotives pulling)
20:01<sim-al2>Alternator equipped units work differently, the motors are usually always in parallel, but the alternator can change it's internal connections, to allow near constant-power over the speed range
20:02<sim-al2>I believe that modern GE units don't even need that anymore, rather neat
20:03<sim-al2>Most of the GM locomotives after the FT had automatic tranisition, but various early units had a selector handle in the cab to control non-equipped units
20:04<drac_boy>heh did you want to know why firemens were still busy in the FT's? manual radiator shutters among a few other things that later were automated
20:04<drac_boy>so yeah on mountain routes sometimes one could be busy with the shutters a few many times per trip
20:06<sim-al2>If manual transition was required, around 25 mph (depending on motor amperage) the engineer would throttle down part way, and then operate the handle
20:13<sim-al2>Huh, yeah, the FT manual suggests adjusting the shutters, and even the fan clutches, depending on outside temperature
20:14<sim-al2>But even the F3 has automatic controller of the shutters, and actually says not to mess with them
20:19<drac_boy>one half-related thing again sim-a12...did you know that a few railroads that ran 3+ A units all facing forward together were sometimes called "an elephant lashup" or that sort of effect?
20:19<drac_boy>kinda made sense when you compare it to real elephants after all, funny how the term came to be tho
20:20<sim-al2>Seems to be a railfan name, if you start looking at some sites people get really nasty about terminology
20:22<sim-al2>It seems that as the cab units aged, they were taken out of matched sets and run as whatever was convenient
20:22<drac_boy>one thing for sure tho, an alco with long snout? why its an alligator, nothing else to say :)
20:22<drac_boy>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/8/0/5480.1290826032.jpg you can see why they called them that
20:23<drac_boy>I'm guessing they didn't need all the engine body space so they simply used a longer low hood design instead
20:25<drac_boy>about railfan names, uk seem very famous for that with both old and new units
20:25<sim-al2>I'm not sure if it's the case here, but a number of Santa Fe and Union Pacific units had extended nose that houses Locotrol or other extra equipment
20:25<drac_boy>mind you some locomotives did have a slight more official nicknames tho such as the Crab due to its high-mounted pistons
20:26<drac_boy>well the alco was designed this way for all railroads so its nothing specific to up/sp in that case
20:29<sim-al2>it looks almost like the frame was extended, possibly for extra fuel-tank capacity and room for the longer bogies, but with almost the same upper portion as the RS-11: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TPW_400_20050716_Illinois_Railway_Museum.JPG
20:29<sim-al2>And the nose lengthed to match
20:30<drac_boy>actually I think I believe there were at least one or two emd units that were basically new unit mounted onto previous-generation chassis .. basically a pre-production sort of thing
20:30<drac_boy>theres one IC unit that looks like a SD40 but its chassis is a bit short leaving almost no rear platform (hood nearly bumps right up to buffer line)
20:33<sim-al2>There was some weirdness going on at EMD around that time, frame lengths were increased from SD40 family to SD40-2 family, but a few units had different hood lengths, resulting in small or large end platforms
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20:34<drac_boy>ah found it .. IC 6071 which was the first SD40-2 by sitting on a SD35 chassis instead
20:35<drac_boy>hm and checking wikipedia just for thoughts it seem to suggest SD40-2 was about 68ft while the SD35 was about 60ft
20:36<drac_boy>thats six feet somewhere else :)
20:36<drac_boy>the rear platform looks like 2 feet knocked but I dunno, hard to really tell from angled photos
20:36<sim-al2>Also, the SD40A, built with a SDP45 frame for a larger fuel tanl, and the Erie Lackawanna's SD45s, basically an SDP45 without the boiler, again for larger fuel tank
20:37<drac_boy>btw SD35 photo reminds me why I for some reason particularly like Southern units .. they had the thing for preferring to run their diesels long-hood forward many of the times
20:38<drac_boy>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Train_at_Atlanta_%281973%29_%284177476824%29.jpg
20:38<sim-al2>Another fun one: The SDL39, basically a minimum weight unit for the Milwaukee's branch lines, which were not in good shape by then: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/locomotive/images/0/07/EMD_SDL39.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120919230006
20:38<drac_boy>talk about not wanting to be in the way of THAT
20:39<drac_boy>heh milwaukee probably bankrupted themself in a sad way me think, first ripping the electrics (even although the poles were not too bad yet) and the frequent maintenance deferrals
20:40<sim-al2>Yeah, the management was poor during the 70's, according to rumor that wanted the railroad sold to BN, but couldn't do it above board
20:44<drac_boy>there was also the ICC "wedge" at the up-ri attempt too, by then rock island was putting off too much maintenance-wise that up decided to walk away
20:50<drac_boy>oh and completely unrelated but theres always this little goofup http://www.airailimages.com/uploads/1/0/1/9/10199931/_______1808178_orig.jpg (santa fe moved a little too fast, probably best idea to merger first then repaint second not the other way around!)
20:51<sim-al2>Yeah, a good number of SP and SF units were painted that way, the letters being placed in way convenient to paint the other two letters for the merged railway
20:52<sim-al2>One of the jokes i've seen: Shouldn't Paint So Fast
20:53<drac_boy>heh heh
20:54<drac_boy>also I recall at least one or more of these units also had an experiment with repowering that wasn't so reliable at the end. was nicknamed Popsicle in some effect
20:54<drac_boy>I think it was a foreign engine
20:55<sim-al2>Hmm, there was a Sulzer experiment, but the engine had major reliability problems
20:56<drac_boy>yeah I believe that was the one
20:56<drac_boy>talk about sulzer+SF in one package .. weird eh
20:57<sim-al2>Sulzer's older designs worked fairly well in locomotives, comprising a good size of the British diesel fleet and being exported all over the world, but the particular engines used in the SF locomotives had problems with cyclical operation
20:58<drac_boy>ah btw there is something else that did last well for a while tho http://trainweb.org/jfuhrtrain/CF7frames/ATSF2480.jpg
20:58<drac_boy>strange looking but ehh, they apparently worked (and better visibility in both directions too which was the main task after all)
20:58<drac_boy>not surprisingly even c&nw did the same to their commuter units too
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21:00<sim-al2>The CF7 was a pretty major rebuild, since the body of the F-units was structural, as opposed to the frame of the road-switchers
21:01<drac_boy>at least most of the cost-saving came from just keeping the chassis other than for new floor I believe
21:01<sim-al2>According to comments here, the high temperatures experienced in tunnels might have been the problem for the Sulzer units here, as burnt valves and cylinder damage were experienced: http://www.derbysulzers.com/1702.html
21:02<sim-al2>The A25 engine was used in lots and lots of boats though
21:03<drac_boy>actually santa fe tried converting their alco PA (yes...I know...) to emd engines but these had some overheating issues so they were left derated below the original alco figures which mooted the project coming to a complete halt as it probably wasn't exactly practical
21:03<sim-al2>I think up to the 70's or 80's, railroads could get tax credits on rebuilds too, resulting in quite a few fun Santa Fe rebuilds
21:04<drac_boy>you could tell these un-alco PA's apart due to their extra exhaust panels on the roof (almost a little like the budd rdc but not as thick)
21:04<sim-al2>Too bad the 244 had so many problems
21:05<drac_boy>btw there is one other rebuild that didn't go anywhere but the lone example lasted a very long time crazy enough, and guess what its nickname was? BEEP!
21:05<drac_boy>:->
21:06<sim-al2>Apparently the Sulzers were used because Morrison Knudsen wanted a supplier that wasn't GE: http://www.derbysulzers.com/usa.html
21:08<sim-al2>MK seemed to have a bit of trouble with engines, they also used quite a few Catapillar engines, but the big ones tended to blow up
21:08<sim-al2>Hmm, apparently the Beep is now in a museum in Barstow
21:14<drac_boy>btw not exactly a normal rebuild kind of thing but why does this seem like a geep with some extra rooftop protection panels welded on http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/5233/687.jpg
21:14<drac_boy>as I recall some if not all were for some kind of circular coal railroad
21:15<drac_boy>(or am I thinking of a different white electric unit)
21:16<sim-al2>That's an electric locomotive
21:16<sim-al2>Probably a different one, the GE E60C's were mostly white or silver painted, and found on dedicated railways
21:18<sim-al2>The Black Mesa and Lake Powell railroad, and possibly the Navajo Mine Railroad still E60s
21:18<drac_boy>oh yeah the E60C is what I was thinking re coal ... but it doesn't look like an ex-diesel body tho
21:18<sim-al2>That EMD electric was one of two prototypes for Conrail, to replace ageing types recieved from the Penn Central
21:19<drac_boy>oh I almost forget, theres the GF6C which didn't last too long due to questionable traffics sadly :-/
21:19<sim-al2>In the end, Conrail choose to buy diesels, and removed the electrification of lines that it owned
21:21<sim-al2>NdeM, the Mexican national railroad, bought a bunch of E60s also, but most were never even used because the electrification project was halted when the railroad was privatized
21:21<drac_boy>well one of the problem I believe was that where the blue/black E44 were still hauling freights for example .. amtrak was going to keep asking ever-higher rates for the corridor routings ... so conrail basically just simply moved out of the corridor which meant no wires
21:23<sim-al2>Yeah, the E44s were there and had been well used, but there were even older types, like the E33C and the various other locomotives that belonged to the New Haven and the PC
21:23<drac_boy>http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--TlDdtUJd_g/ULSWxWI3f9I/AAAAAAAAQH8/r015ysi20GM/s1600/Conrail_PRR_14.jpg heres to color photo of conrail freight on amtrak's tracks
21:23<sim-al2>I.E. the New Haven's EP5s, which were breaking down by that time
21:24<drac_boy>geeze only a few months ago I actually read a story about the unlucky engineer who broke his EP5 unit three separate times!
21:25<drac_boy>one was due to hitting a deer which broke the rigid brake pipe in the pilot so the train was dead till they bypassed the loco brakes and hauled train in with a few spare diesel units
21:26<drac_boy>another one the same EP5 was a trailing unit ... when he looked back on another curve as usual he noticed it was on fire but soon this turned out to be only the pantograph itself so after power was killed the smoke eventually went away and he continued the train without any power from the EP5
21:27<drac_boy>forgot what the third one was but it equally brought the train to a complete halt :-s ... he said that he was so happy when that one EP5 unit was finally left at the shed track for good
21:27<drac_boy>also one of the problem with the worn-down EP5's at that time was that also only one pantograph was mounted instead of the usual two .. so icy wires could be very touchy
21:28<drac_boy>kinda a funny if not sad contrast to the early days of NH where the EP5 was basically the "jet" locomotive
21:28<sim-al2>Yeah, the lack of mainteance was a big problem on the New Haven, their MU fleet was equally ragtag
21:31<drac_boy>lack of maintenance = thats why eventually the FL9's kept throwing out smoke inside grand central terminal .. just as well because the 3rd rail shoes were becoming unuseable
21:32<drac_boy>initial design basically was supposed to have it idle/shut (not sure which) its diesel engine and use 3rd power alone in the station zone
21:34<sim-al2>I think idle, as some components, need power from the aux gen, and I don't think electric air compressors were included
21:35<sim-al2>EMDs for the most part have engine-driven air compressors
21:36<sim-al2>I think the AC rebuilds had the gear to run entirely on third-rail power, but those were very unreliable and scrapped after a few years
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21:47<drac_boy>going sleep soon here so goodnight, and seem we talked quite a lot once again heh
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23:11<Starn88>so recently i've been having an issue with openTTD freezing my entire computer system, in both Windows and Linux i am trying to figure out if hardware or software. 'cause other games run fine for extended amounts of time. i have a 2.7ghz quadcore cpu. 2gb vram on a nvidia 640gt. 6gb of ram dual boot with windows and linux.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 28 00:00:20 2016