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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-28

---Logopened Sun Feb 28 00:00:20 2016
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01:19<_johannes>moin
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02:03<andythenorth>o/
03:12<andythenorth>ships
03:12<andythenorth>grumble grumble
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03:21<andythenorth>moin
03:24<@Alberth>hi hi
03:28<V453000>yo
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05:21<Wolf01>o/
05:22<V453000>hy
05:33-!-svip [~svip@static.227.17.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #openttd
05:33<svip>When can I start laying railway? It's 1925, and the railway options aren't available.
05:33<Wolf01>when the first rail engine become available
05:33<svip>http://wiki.openttd.org/Train_Comparison
05:34<svip>According to this, it's should be 1925.
05:34<Wolf01>if you have any grf which disable the builtin engines, check the introduction dates of the grf
05:35<svip>Hmm... how do I check when GRF I am running?
05:35<svip>Accordingly, I have no NewGRF files.
05:36<Wolf01>the options menu should have an "actives newgrfs" entry, or what else is called
05:37<svip>And there appears to be no active NewGRF files.
05:37<svip>Maybe the engine becomes available DURING 1925? And I'll just have to wait?
05:38<Wolf01>try to fast forward to 1926 and check
05:41<svip>btw, are rivers like a new thing?
05:41<svip>It's been years since I last played.
05:43<andythenorth>rivers are last 4 years or so
05:43<svip>Hmm... it's now December 1925, and I did not get a new engine. :< Nor the ability to build railways.
05:43*andythenorth guesses
05:43<svip>andythenorth: When I played last, path signals were the new black.
05:43<andythenorth>cheat the year to 1950 see what happens
05:43<svip>How?
05:44<andythenorth>ctr-alt-c
05:45<andythenorth>then click on the date in ‘change date'
05:45<svip>I now can lay railways.
05:45<svip>I just wish I could do that in 1925.
05:45<svip>Although, even 1925 seems a bit late for the golden age of railway.
05:47<svip>Any NewGRF that helps with that?
05:49<Wolf01>bah, if there's one thing I really hate, is when you need to purchase the SAME app twice because the developer like it so... if an universal app is too difficult to have, just share the license between the 2 identical apps on the same store
05:55<andythenorth>svip: loads of newgrfs, needs a new game though
05:55<svip>andythenorth: That's OK, I haven't built anything.
05:55<svip>Since I couldn't.
05:55*andythenorth recommends Iron Horse, but andythenorth is biased
05:55<Wolf01>svip, try the NARS or iron horse, I think they have something for 1900
05:55<andythenorth>or NUTS
05:55<andythenorth>or UKRS 2
05:57<@Alberth>or just ignorfe the year, it's just a random number
05:57<@Alberth>*ignore
06:01<@Alberth>Wolf01: ask for a refund of the first buy?
06:01<Wolf01>nah, I just want it on both pc and smartphone :P
06:02<@Alberth>:)
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06:30<V453000>cat
06:30<V453000>I haz it
06:33<Wolf01>undo knob... http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aMGB1RR_460s_v1.jpg
06:36<Wolf01>we could add it to OTTD, in the cheat menu, it does "replay scenario from scratch"
06:49<@Alberth>slight improvement, reload last saved game
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07:10<_dp_>what do "patch", "work in progress" and "external" issue types mean in bugtracker?
07:10<_dp_>almost any patch is either bugfix or new feature
07:11<_dp_>work in progress is an issue state, not type imo
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07:11<flyinggerbil20>hello i have a question
07:11<Wolf01>Alberth, but the last saved game could be anything
07:12<flyinggerbil20>how can you join online servers
07:12<@Alberth>time travel is a bit unreliable :p
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07:13<@Alberth>flyinggerbil20: https://wiki.openttd.org/Multiplayer#Connecting_to_a_server ?
07:13<flyinggerbil20>thank you
07:13<Wolf01>if I start a game A, save, start game B and "undo", it could reload the game A save or even nothing if the savegame doesn't match with the company name... and both the save and the company name could be changed
07:13<@Alberth>hmm, good point
07:14<@Alberth>but euhm, it does do rollback, just not to game B :p
07:14<Wolf01>imho, the restart scenario is the best option, maybe with a splash screen with a troll face
07:14<Wolf01>:D
07:15<@Alberth>but that's not different from continueing in game A without saving, and then rollback to the last save
07:15<_dp_>flyinggerbil20, and "connection:internet" is changed to "advertised:yes" now, that's the most common cause of connecting issues :)
07:15<@Alberth>we could also remove all save games, and the cfg file, and restart :D
07:16<Wolf01>that is a user interaction, it's the player fault if loads a different save ;)
07:16<Wolf01>with restarting the scenario the problem might be to restart the exact game, with cities and industries in the same place
07:16<@Alberth>I don't know what happens with the save game data after it is saved to disk
07:16<Wolf01>for a real scenario it might work well, but with a random game not
07:17<@Alberth>if it is kept you could copy that back
07:17<@Alberth>also make a copy after starting, without saving to disk
07:18<Wolf01>which work only for the session... once you close the game it's gone
07:18<Wolf01>(like other softwares)
07:18<@Alberth>yeah, I really want to undo my last build action now, even though openttd doesn't run currently :p
07:20<Wolf01>it might require to change the entire way the save works, as it needs some time to copy the state in memory for the other thread, and you need to do it for every action, maybe also each 1-2 game days to undo a train crash
07:21<Wolf01>but I don't want that feature
07:21<Wolf01>shit happens and it's good
07:21<@Alberth>state is already copied before saving to disk (it's the Zzz time that you get)
07:22<Wolf01>yes, but you will get Zzz every second :P
07:22<@Alberth>play a sane sized map :p
07:22<Wolf01>maybe an incremental sync would be cool
07:23<@Alberth>cool no doubt, but very complicated
07:23<Wolf01>every map change must launch an event
07:24<Wolf01>which is listened by the other thread and commits the single change
07:24<Wolf01>and everything explodesz
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07:25<Wolf01>I think this could work like minecraft, it continuously saves modified chunks in real time
07:26<Wolf01>and it will improve a lot the saving time in very large maps
07:27<@Alberth>does that ever give you a consistent state?
07:28<@Alberth>only if you stop modifying the map, I guess
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07:33<Wolf01>I think every state is consistent
07:33<Wolf01>you could exit at any time and return to the last state without corruption... at least most of the times
07:35<@Alberth>ah, indeed, it's just not the current state, but one a bit earlier due to delayed saving
07:36*andythenorth plays connect four
07:39<@Alberth>child is winning?
07:39<andythenorth>yes :(
07:39<andythenorth>I’m not even trying to lose to keep him happy now
07:39<andythenorth>the only advantage he has is going first every time
07:39<andythenorth>but I think that’s enough for this game
07:40<@Alberth>yep, if you pick the right column
07:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: o_O http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lego-62mm-D-x-46mm-8457-Technic-Power-Puller-Set-of-4-Tyres-Wheels-22969c02-/191815302062?hash=item2ca9153bae:g:UqkAAOSwUuFW0uRE
07:41<andythenorth>need any wheels?
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07:50<Wolf01>lol what £50?
07:51*andythenorth is waiting for whoever buys them for £20 on Bricklink to find them :P
07:51<Ketsuban>Alberth: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6421 The point isn't that the syscalls exist, it's that the paths themselves are bogus - there will never be a /usr/local/share/games/openttd//home/$USER/.openttd/openttd.cfg on any system.
07:51<Wolf01>eh "may not post to italy", so I think I don't even try :P
07:52*andythenorth must sell more things on eBay
07:52<andythenorth>lego, trains
07:52<@Alberth>Ketsuban: ah, ok, fair enough
07:52*andythenorth wonders if anyone would buy pixels
07:52<Wolf01>don't. You'll regret it
07:53<Wolf01>maybe an entire set of pixels, because just one is not marketable ;)
07:54<@Alberth>I have a bunch of identical ones, does that count?
07:54<Wolf01>maybe, but they need to be >1000
07:55<andythenorth>megapixel
07:55<andythenorth>or is that > 1024?
07:56<Wolf01>I'm wondering if it's better to build voxel models from scratch or sculpt a parallelepipedon, I wouldn't buy an empty mode, but a solid one might be too heavy
07:56<@Alberth>depends whether you're marketing or engineering :)
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07:59<Wolf01>meh... the last hours before departure are a mess, I want to do too many things
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08:33<andythenorth>quadruplex engines http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/quadruplex/quadrapl.htm
08:36<Wolf01>too many 8s :P
08:37<Wolf01>Artist's impression of the final development of these proposals: a 2-10-10-10-10-10-2 Baldwin Quintuplex in action!
08:37<Wolf01>lol
08:37<andythenorth>quad garratt at the end
08:37<Wolf01>yeah, it's cool
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08:45<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=189834
08:45<V453000>andythenorth: no wires, they fuck up with 3 different track types
08:45<V453000>having an universal wire that would work with all of them is hell
08:45<andythenorth>does make sense
08:45<V453000>might add shadows for the integration effect though
08:46<Wolf01>nice signals
08:46<Wolf01>but they look too different from the track style
08:46<andythenorth>you going to add any ground tile noise?
08:46<andythenorth>or leave it flat?
08:46<andythenorth>flat is ok
08:46<andythenorth>but stuff will look like it floats
08:47<Wolf01>they look like stickers
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08:50<V453000>they mainly are clear at x1 zoom
08:50<V453000>which is an achievement alone
08:50<V453000>ground tile noise = shadow
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08:52<V453000>btw Wolf01 if you want different style, the semaphore lights will look different
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08:52<@Alberth>really great signals V
08:52<V453000>thanks Alberth :) I like them a lot
08:53<@Alberth>any plans to package them in a separate newgrf?
08:53<Wolf01>no, I like the shape etc, but to me it seem they don't fit the graphics, they are too "clean"
08:53<V453000>hmf
08:53<V453000>yeah possible Alberth
08:53<@Alberth>Wolf01: but the entire world is clean
08:53<V453000>well the tracks aren't
08:53<V453000>which is a fair point
08:53<Wolf01>the tracks aren't, there's noise on them
08:53<V453000>but for example maglev is clean
08:54<Wolf01>maybe they fit better with maglev
08:54<@Alberth>hmm, good point
08:55<Wolf01>is it possible to have different signals for different track types or just light/semaphores?
08:56<V453000>with railtypes it is possible
08:56<V453000>for base game not
08:56<V453000>so, light/semaphores it is
08:58<@Alberth>bbl
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08:58<andythenorth>hmm
08:58<andythenorth>V453000: you know how the first part of a project is obsessive fun?
08:58<frosch123>hmm, scenario pack 0.12.21 -> 999.999.999
08:58<andythenorth>then turns into work :|
08:58<V453000>yes andythenorth
08:58<V453000>frosch123: cause it is a part of the game now :)
08:58*andythenorth just hit that with Iron HOrse :P
08:59<andythenorth>again
08:59<V453000>hm :)
08:59<andythenorth>7 days of fun drawing
08:59<andythenorth>now I have to grind through all wagons and stuff
08:59<V453000>I can imagine
08:59<V453000>yeah wagons are tedious
08:59<andythenorth>also I want them to look not all same as other rosters
08:59<andythenorth>because otherwise, why bother?
09:00<V453000>obviously ;)
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09:01<V453000>well rendering shadows sure does take a while XD
09:01<V453000>fuck
09:01<V453000>rendering 2 things simultaneously is death
09:01<peter1138>hurr 41.8 mph
09:06<andythenorth>moar computers
09:06<andythenorth>faster
09:07<V453000>$$$
09:07<andythenorth>sell stuff
09:08<andythenorth>make $$$
09:08*andythenorth must to shop
09:08<andythenorth>for beans and croissants and stuff
09:08<andythenorth>biab
09:08<peter1138>coffee or baked?
09:09<V453000>getting rendering stations is kind of a lot of $$$ to sell :D
09:09<alluke>andy do you have a spritesheet of yellow tractors?
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09:17<V453000>gg
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12:29<Wolf01>people, I'll be back in 2 weeks, maybe before with the phone, so, see you and show me some more pixels when I'll return ;)
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12:32<andythenorth>baked
12:34<Wolf01>where were you? I'm saying hello to everybody, I'm going to try a Shinkansen
12:34<Wolf01>(or more than one)
12:36<V453000>holy shit I think trunk has a bugged convert signal tool
12:36<V453000>if you convert a signal, it acts as if you ctrl-click a signal additionally
12:36<V453000>changing the signal type by one
12:36<Wolf01>bad one
12:38<andythenorth>biab
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12:40<Wolf01>bye
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12:42<@Alberth>I find the 'convert button' quite useless :)
13:03<V453000>yes unless you are trying to demonstrate something with your signal graphics XD
13:03<V453000>but bug is a bug
13:03<V453000>will report
13:05<@Alberth>thanks
13:07<V453000>also yes the convert button should be able to convert on multiple tiles, and both ways
13:07<V453000>not just old -> new
13:07<V453000>or at least en masse on a length of a track without junctions
13:07<V453000>but in area would be way better
13:09<@Alberth>I wouldn't be surprised if there are feature requests for that
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13:13<V453000>I think I even contributed to some of them yes
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13:18<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/signals-wip-09.png
13:21<@Alberth>very white :)
13:22<V453000>clear :)
13:23<@Alberth>the NE and NW tunnels are mostly visible due to the tracks to/from them
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13:24<andythenorth>ha
13:24<andythenorth>lego sold :)
13:24<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/signals-wip-09.png andythenorth
13:25<@Alberth>industries are from the mars conversion?
13:26<V453000>yes
13:26<andythenorth>shadow ftw eh?
13:26<V453000>aye
13:26<@Alberth>I clearly haven't played with that enough :)
13:26<andythenorth>those industries are quite awesome
13:26*andythenorth needs to make more ‘normal’ climate industries that look like that
13:27<andythenorth>Alberth: how is your RCT clone going? o_O
13:27<@Alberth>hmm, I mostly gave up, for the time being at least
13:27<andythenorth>big project ;)
13:27*andythenorth considered adapting it to cargo coasters :P
13:28<@Alberth>after 5 years I kind of had enough of the uphill battle of having nothing to attach code to
13:28<@Alberth>probably also not helped by the major trouble at work last year
13:29<@Alberth>I am still in the process of finding my new spot
13:29<@Alberth>(ie what do I do with whom)
13:29<andythenorth>all changd?
13:30<andythenorth>+e
13:32<@Alberth>big shifts back and forth, yet to see where everything stops moving :)
13:33<@Alberth>eg my colleague programmer left this week
13:34<andythenorth>:|
13:34<V453000>:d
13:34<V453000>ain't nice
13:35<V453000>btw andythenorth I thought about what you said earlier about IH facing the "is work" obstacle ... and I realized that it hadn't happened to me with BRIX yet
13:35<V453000>even after huge amount of time spent with it
13:35<V453000>in fact, I like it more and more
13:35<andythenorth>good :)
13:35<andythenorth>I get into grooves like that with FIRS
13:35<andythenorth>but not sustained
13:36<V453000>well I don't work on BRIX every day either
13:36<andythenorth>I think I go better with collaborators :P
13:36<V453000>I am kind of a demanding bitch when I make some graphics, I want to see it in the game ASAP
13:36<andythenorth>+1
13:37<V453000>so cooperating on BRIX wouldn't be great
13:37<V453000>like waiting for a week for coder
13:37<V453000>rather sacrificing a day or two to code the thing
13:37<andythenorth>doesn’t have to be that way :D
13:37<andythenorth>when Dan isn’t too busy, we trade sprites
13:37<andythenorth>he does a bit, I do a bit
13:37<V453000>:)
13:37<V453000>another option
13:38<andythenorth>also we bounce the set design off each other
13:38<V453000>I guess I just haven't met anybody who would have the same idea / want to cooperate on the thing ... except when Sylf coded YETI after I did 0.0.1 first to at least see stuff, and when Elyon was coding NML stations and left after a week XD
13:39<andythenorth>yair, that :P
13:39<V453000>and I spend a lot of time discussion the game design with openttdcoop people, so they are in a sense my cooperator ;)
13:39<andythenorth>I have this channel for same :P
13:39<@Alberth>stations are a bitch, I am told
13:39<andythenorth>there are enough contradictory opinions here that I can form an opinion of my own :)
13:39<V453000>she had it almost finished Alberth :(
13:40<andythenorth>stations are just weird
13:40<@Alberth>/me plays a not so quiet teddybear with andy, every now and then :p
13:40<andythenorth>the spec is upside down
13:40<@Alberth>V :(
13:40<andythenorth>I suspect that implementing stations in NML isn’t hard, just unpleasant
13:40<@Alberth>upside down?
13:40<V453000>ass side up
13:41<andythenorth>it does something weird with the action chains iirc
13:41<@Alberth>/me is not surprised
13:43<andythenorth>frosch123: so FIRS In A Hot Country economy…should I split fruit cargo?
13:43<andythenorth>e.g. I might be able to fit cocao and bananas, or something
13:45<frosch123>i would not add new cargos
13:45<frosch123>but if you want to add some industry layouts :)
13:45<frosch123>coffee estate -> coffee/cacao estate
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27514 trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt (2016-02-28 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish: 2 changes by wakeup
13:46<frosch123>fruit plantattion -> banana/ananas/date plantation
13:46<frosch123>s/ananas/pineapple/
13:46<andythenorth>and leave the cargo as fruit?
13:46<frosch123>yes, spltting does not add anything
13:46<frosch123>it only adds parallel chains
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13:47<frosch123>unless you only want to deliver some of them to the port
13:47*andythenorth considers banana oil :P
13:47<frosch123>and others to food plant and brewery
13:47<andythenorth>I could remove alcohol
13:48<V453000>WHAT
13:48<andythenorth>yeah no
13:48<V453000>BEER
13:48<frosch123>but definitely do not yet add more ports to accept yet more cargos :p
13:48<andythenorth>nah
13:48<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_beer
13:48<frosch123>V453000: alcohol and food are completely equivalent cargos in firs
13:48<V453000>I know
13:48<V453000>but BEER
13:48<frosch123>produced from the same raw stuff, accepted by the same
13:48<V453000>yes
13:48<V453000>replace food with beer I sez
13:49<V453000>only option
13:49<frosch123>alcohol is only cool when transported in tank vans
13:49<V453000>tis what I do
13:49<frosch123>anyway, advantage of food and alocohol are the wagon variety which they require
13:49<frosch123>like edible tank van and refridgeraded box van
13:49<andythenorth>yup
13:50<andythenorth>also GS _could_ make use of it :P
13:50<frosch123>while adding more minerals only results in the same hoppers
13:50<andythenorth>if only someone would write more GS :)
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13:54*andythenorth looks what goes to food processor
13:55<andythenorth>quite like the idea of Bananas
13:55<andythenorth>then there could be banana boat
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13:57<frosch123>http://www.hallo-spencer.de/home/chronik/images/1985_001.jpg <- that one?
13:57<frosch123>though it's a banana car
13:59<frosch123>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tllFoZ5xFvA/maxresdefault.jpg
14:00<andythenorth>ha
14:00<andythenorth>this will continue until someone posts banana hammock
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>no banana ever went into a food processor... any processed "banana" is just artificial flavour
14:00<andythenorth>let’s short cut that
14:01<andythenorth>hmm
14:01<andythenorth>maybe a port with refrigeration? o_O
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14:16<frosch123>ice cube factory
14:17<frosch123>hotels need alcohol and ice cubes
14:17<frosch123>are ice cubes bulk or piece goods?
14:17<andythenorth>bulk
14:18*andythenorth looks for pictures
14:20<andythenorth>nah didn’t find any
14:20<andythenorth>ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_trade
14:21<andythenorth>should be in Arctic Basic? o_O
14:23<andythenorth>salt, ice, spice, silk
14:23<andythenorth>tea
14:23<andythenorth>I have coffee :P
14:23<andythenorth>also tulips
14:24<V453000>._.
14:28<@Alberth>those cubes are for cooling (pre-refridgerator times)
14:28<@Alberth>I doubt you'd transport them very far, without refridgerators :p
14:30<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Ice_Trade,_1856.png
14:30<andythenorth>:D
14:31<V453000>GG
14:51<@Alberth>OMG
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15:06<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/signals-wip-10.png it is ridiculous to see how large x4 is in compare to x1
15:07*andythenorth must redraw everything at x4
15:07<andythenorth>x1 too small
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15:26<frosch123>i am still wondering about a better use for semaphores
15:26<frosch123>but signals are already so colourful
15:26<frosch123>so making differently coloured variants makes no sense
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15:48<andythenorth>too many signals :P
15:48*andythenorth considers patching ottd locally
15:48<andythenorth>just colour-light PBS and PBS one-way
16:09<Ketsuban>Only if PBS degrades to normal signals when there's only one path to reserve.
16:23*andythenorth only ever builds PBS
16:36<@Alberth>good night
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23:33<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Inspection-locomotive.jpg I'm not sure if this is genius or insane (It's a Track Inspection Car)
23:42<sim-al2>I wonder about the capability of that boiler
23:43<Supercheese>it shouldn't need to be all that powerful
23:43<sim-al2>Good view out the front though (for the passengers, anyway)
23:43<Supercheese>that's the idea
23:43<Supercheese>stroll along, eyes wide for track defects
23:43<Supercheese>speed not a priority
23:44<sim-al2>Seems that it would limit train weight, although this wouldn't be used for much pulling power anyway
23:44<sim-al2>I think the fact that most railroads even now use executive cars instead of locomotives is telling
23:49<sim-al2>Of course, with the power of modern technology, you can just use the regular trains to inspect stuff too: https://youtu.be/_CIWgjxDLNE?t=15
23:50<Flygon>iirc, the British just used ordinary locomotives towing special cas
23:50<Flygon>cars*
23:50<Flygon>It's how VR did that stuff here
23:50<sim-al2>Yeah, we do that too
23:50<sim-al2>For the heavy duty inspection, there's dedicated railcars and coaches with all kinds of special equipment
23:50<Flygon>Current day railways (Metro and V/Line) use BOTH methods
23:51<ConductorCat>:3
23:51<Flygon>Mainly because they have no $$$
23:51<Flygon>There's the one with push-pull locomotives using a converted 50s passenger carriage
23:51<Flygon>And the Railcar one
23:52*ConductorCat imagines the boiler baking the occupants above.
23:53<sim-al2>I think the new Yanamote line trains in Tokyo will have the ability to inspect the line while in service, as the big spotlight and equipment pack on the roof of one of the cars, and the giant barcode-scanner-looking scanning thing haven't been removed in like a year of testing
---Logclosed Mon Feb 29 00:00:21 2016