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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-02-29

---Logopened Mon Feb 29 00:00:21 2016
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00:50<sim-al2>Oh the perils of token-based railway ops:
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10:04<argoneus>mmmmmm trains
10:04<argoneus>mmm good shit right there
10:04<peter1138>mmm bicycles
10:05<alluke>shit in your trains?
10:05<sim-al2>Mmmm, sewage trains
10:14*Eddi|zuHause has a feeling he's in the wrong place
10:17<V453000>shit where
10:17<V453000>I want it
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10:23<@Alberth>hi hi
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10:49<alluke>oink oink
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10:54<V453000>it is great when you put images on reddit (not even long text so they don't have to read stuff), say yo reddit, here are signals, tell me what you think. And first reply I get is a downvote without any comments :D later, 2 comments, shitload of downvotes, some upvotes
10:54<V453000>feels great
10:54<V453000>also, our civilization is in such deep shit.
10:55<@Alberth>so much for global democracy :p
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10:57<V453000>not even mentioning forums where literally 2 people care about the thing, with rarely someone else adding comments
10:57<V453000>if I wasn't active on IRC, idk what
10:57<V453000>sometimes I wonder why haven't I moved to modding factorio instead
10:58<@Alberth>doing work in free time? :)
10:58<V453000>the things I do for openttd are pretty identical to my work
10:59<V453000>or yeah I could even do work instead of openttd
11:01<@Alberth>don't know what the reddit community is like, but at tt-forums, you work is too far from the green temperate climate to count as a baseset, for many, I think
11:02<V453000>mainly because 99% of tt-forums are realistic retards, so I should probably be happy for the 2 people eh
11:02<sim-al2>I don't understand why tropic or even artic is so hated
11:02<frosch123>replace the red stripes on the pbs with a small "noob" text
11:02<V453000>sim-al2: weaker electric trains without newgrfs
11:02<V453000>cause noobs don't use newgrfs
11:03<V453000>frosch123: I like that idea
11:03<@Alberth>don't know how many regular users read the graphics development group at all
11:03<@Alberth>sim-al2: you missed the toyland climate too ! :(
11:03<sim-al2>Yeah, our vanilla (no newgrf) server is way more popular, appearently clicking the download button for newGRFs is too hard?
11:04<@Alberth>also, most people are completely lost when you add a newgrf
11:04<sim-al2>Yeah, but Toyland has actually made me feel sick before, so I understand that
11:04<@Alberth>all carefully learned knowledge about trains and industries gone
11:04<V453000>sim-al2: btw, adding newgrfs drastically reduces chances that your server will be visited by griefers
11:04<V453000>apparently it IS hard XD
11:04<sim-al2>For the most part, that's true
11:05<sim-al2>We seem to have the very rare, hyper dedicated guy though
11:05<frosch123>V453000: i guess making the two-way pbs red is fine, they should be very rare
11:06<frosch123>maybe the one-way should look more similar to the entry signal
11:06<V453000>this is probably final for the modern signals
11:06<V453000>well it kind of is :P
11:06<frosch123>red triangle instead of yellow or so
11:06<frosch123>but no red-white-red
11:07<sim-al2>My thought on the the PBS signals is that the two "forward" (train facing) sides should be half red-white or something, to make seeing the orientation easier
11:07<sim-al2>oh I see you did that already
11:07<frosch123>V453000: i like the combo signals in that screenshot
11:08<frosch123>it makes it easy to see that combo=entry+exit
11:08<@Alberth>yeah, me too
11:08<V453000>I completely agree
11:08<V453000>moo pm
11:08<V453000>atm making semaphore signals, they will also have combo=entry+exit
11:09<@planetmaker>hm... two-way PBS are common in in-track stations, e.g. used for passenger lines
11:09<V453000>sure but not spammed everywhere :P
11:09<frosch123>planetmaker: yes, but even lazy people do not put them all along the track
11:09<@planetmaker>lazy people don't place signals :P
11:10<frosch123>i put one-way signals at distance 8 all the time
11:10<sim-al2>They click-drag them though
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11:10<@planetmaker>hm, I like this new signal version much better than the first, V453000 :)
11:10<V453000>definitely :) a lot of work was put into it
11:11<@planetmaker>they have a significant similarity with the newer versions speed control / radar boxes placed alongside roads :P
11:11<@Alberth>perhaps one of the problems at reddit is that you need to study the signals to see the logic behind it
11:11<alluke>i dont think tropic or arctic are hated
11:11<V453000>good point :D you need to know how the game signals work XD
11:12<frosch123>so, entry=horizonal yellow, exit=vertical white. following that i suggest one-way-pbs=horizontal red, two-way-pbs=horizontal red + vertical white
11:12<alluke>but people usually seem to prefer the environment which is similar to the one they live irl
11:12<@Alberth>if you make a simple table "<signal> Name, (perhaps <old signal>", it makes a lot more sense
11:13<V453000>I believe 2way PBS should be simpler than 1-way frosch123
11:13<@Alberth>toyland, alluke :)
11:13<alluke>its shit, i can say that
11:13<frosch123>V453000: he, i would expect the reverse :p
11:13<frosch123>2way pbs is quite wtf
11:13<V453000>Alberth: I even did this
11:13<sim-al2>Screenshots and videos are definetly the most popular on reddit, discussion not so much
11:14<V453000>frosch123: it is, but visually I think there should be something that is simple as 2way, vs. that 2way with a restrictive element (like horizontal stripe) to demonstrate 1-way only
11:14<frosch123>V453000: anyway, i use 1way pbs similar to entry, and 2way pbs similar to 2way exit
11:14<V453000>well yes frosch123 , they also kind of look somewhat similar
11:14<@Alberth>V: Seen that, hmm. So perhaps explain "red=pbs", "white" means exit, and so on? with the table
11:15<V453000>2way PBS does have vertical edges, and 1way pbs does have bright horizontal stripe
11:15<V453000>Alberth: meh
11:15<V453000>people don't read that much text :D except a few
11:16<@Alberth>but you have 3 concepts or so?
11:16<@Alberth>but yeah, could be :(
11:16<V453000>yeah kind of many concepts :D
11:17<alluke>off-topic; does anyone have experience about mk2 vw jettas/golfs?
11:18<@Alberth>probably, since you won't be the first buyer? :p
11:18<alluke>i mean any of you here
11:19<@Alberth>about 95% never says anything :(
11:19<alluke>here should be a script that kicks them after 24h idle
11:20<@Alberth>they just auto-reconnect
11:20<Pici>I say things sometimes.
11:29<_dp_>you clearly don't play on goal servers :p
11:30<_dp_>pbs is way better there since you can use it for everything and not waste time on signals
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11:37<V453000>sorry _dp_ but openttd isn't starcraft
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11:40<_dp_>V453000, well, about half of mp is competitive :p
11:41<_dp_>and even on non-competitive servers people are trying to compete sometimes
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11:52<V453000>yeah cause people need to see numbers to get a clear winner instead of competing who builds a better network
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11:59<_dp_>V453000, there isn't even a single notion of comparing networks, it's more like an art
12:00<V453000>but it is where people need actual knowledge about the game
12:00<V453000>not just fast fingers
12:01<_dp_>V453000, you need a lot of game knowledge on goal servers too
12:02<V453000>uncomparably less
12:03<_dp_>V453000, won't be so sure... it's just in a different area
12:05<@Alberth>just add more track for more capacity, simples
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12:06<_dp_>Alberth, aha, and watch your town stuck coz you didn't even bother doing buses :p
12:07<V453000>that is knowledge of same intelligence level like "place your HQ at a town". Zero complexity, just remembering things to do
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12:08<@Alberth>don't underestimate that, I often forget to place my HQ entirely :p
12:09<_dp_>V453000, you're talking like you know all about town growth mechanics :p
12:09<@Alberth>how can I ever be a proper tycoon??? :)
12:10<V453000>it isn't like town growth mechanics are very complex. Get 5 bus stations, get good ratings at them, build roads which avoid daed ends
12:10<V453000>not much more to do
12:10<V453000>supply resource which gamescript requires, nice
12:11<_dp_>V453000, it's much more complex
12:12<V453000>I would like to hear that then
12:12<V453000>the only thing I remember remaining is town road layout having a big role
12:13<V453000>we read the code of town growth quite intensively with mfb back in the day
12:14<_dp_>V453000, yeah, ofc it does, and there isn't even single "perfect" layout. spiral is pretty close though
12:15<_dp_>so did I :p even did some patches to it after that, and tools for modded client
12:15<V453000>yes various layouts can perform very similarly
12:16<_dp_>did you see this btw?
12:17<V453000>no :D
12:17<_dp_>there are some layout presets if you click "load" and difference is pretty clear actually
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12:18<_dp_>V453000, cs is number of cycles town growth wasted btw
12:24<_dp_>average house pop and cs amount pretty much summarizes quality of layout
12:24<_dp_>but you can also influence it in game dynamically adjusting layout
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12:25<_dp_>for example, there is a trick with reserving space for houses
12:26<_dp_>or blocking outer town zones with rails to get larger houses
12:26<_dp_>needs a lot of spare time though, since zones change constantly
12:27<V453000>still sounds majorly dull
12:28<_dp_>V453000, well, tell me what's so smart about networks then :p
12:29<V453000>combining signals, managing multi-track traffic, self-managing stations, global network plans, maximizing train efficiency with various things like conditional orders, self regulation, ...
12:34<_dp_>global plan and maximizing efficiency goes for goal too, self regulation wasn't very hard last time I checked, at least when I needed it I figured pretty much all of what's in wiki before even reading it
12:35<_dp_>and have no idea what you mean by other stuff
12:37<V453000>yeah but when you have to hurry you don't get anywhere as good results, and therefore don't use nearly as much complexity
12:38<V453000>self regulation has got a lot of new tricks in the last years
12:38<_dp_>V453000, but when you have to hurry you have whole new dimension to optimize - time :p
12:38<V453000>yeah, mash buttons
12:39<_dp_>V453000, no, that includes trains and networks too
12:40<_dp_>V453000, not only you need designs that are effective but fast too build too
12:40<V453000>which is pretty easy to do
12:40<V453000>connect by closest possible track, build primitive station
12:41<@Alberth>you reduce time by reducing complexity of what you build
12:42<V453000>basically, yes
12:42<@Alberth>in exchange you build more, probably
12:42<_dp_>you need to max efficiency also
12:42<@Alberth>nah, just add more track
12:43<@Alberth>scales much better to get more capacity in a short time
12:43<V453000>yes, expanding is not time efficient
12:45<_dp_>Alberth, you rarely need more capacity in one direction than 2-way rail :p
12:45<_dp_>example of trade-off: build hubs or hubless?
12:46<V453000>complex question as fuck XD
12:46<@Alberth>I do, regularly, trains run faster when empty :)
12:46<V453000>tiny junctions or none at all XD
12:46<_dp_>V453000, well, what's your answer?
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12:47<V453000>I would say it depends a lot on the layout of what you need to get done, junctions somewhere where necessary, and expand by splitting tracks
12:47<V453000>or something along those lines
12:47<V453000>that just comes from trying it a few times
12:48<_dp_>V453000, I meant hubs, junctions are quite straightforward in goal games
12:48<V453000>in my dictionary hubs and junctions are the same, what is the difference for you?
12:49<V453000>combined stations?
12:49<_dp_>V453000, by hub I mean bring all to one station with transfer and do big line from there
12:50<_dp_>V453000, and hubless is just connecting every industry individually, without transfer
12:50<V453000>right, that is even more retarded than building no junctions XD
12:50<V453000>concept wise
12:50<V453000>idk how it compares in speed, I would say one-directional cargoes like coal would be efficient with it, not sure though
12:52<_dp_>which one r you talking about?
12:52<_dp_>every cargo is 2-way in some sense btw
12:53<_dp_>you can always pick same one on other end :p
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12:55<V453000>point is fair, is why I love refit :)
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12:56<_dp_>anyway, answer is, hubs are much faster to build and easier to redirect, but less profitable
12:57<_dp_>so, for example, good starting line in cb is coal with hub on town side and hubless on other (if you can build fast enough)
12:57<_dp_>later in game hub is redirected to town
13:07<_dp_>btw, you can't build faster then you get money for it, so mashing buttons is not everything ;)
13:08<_dp_>and with funding there is always what to spend money on
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13:10<V453000>yeah I understand
13:10<V453000>let's stop it, we won't get anywhere and it is highly unlikely you will convince me anyway ;P
13:10<V453000>the bigger world issue is that my new signals are rendering fucking slowly :(
13:13<V453000>the new signals might have PBS more friendly with spam :P
13:24<@Alberth>they're just too beautiful for a quick render :)
13:25<_dp_>and I suddenly understood why you had to do such unusual design for signals...
13:26<_dp_>I mean when I think that you actually DO use them it suddenly makes sense xD
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13:40<_dp_>damn, now I'm thinking how to improve signals interface...
13:40<_dp_>brain, what r you doing, staph %)
13:41<_dp_>hotkeys for each type and auto-converting when clicked with wrong type will do for starters imo xD
13:41<V453000>nice nuff
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13:53<_dp_>smth needs to be done about selecting direction, at least for block signals
13:54<_dp_>one way you can drag at least
13:54<_dp_>does anyone use dragging without ctrl btw?)
13:57<@Alberth>don't know what that does
13:57<@Alberth>I have seen people drag all the way instead of just a few tiles in the right direction though
13:57<_dp_>places signal on segment you marked
13:59<_dp_>yeah, I bet those people don't know about ctrl xD
14:02<_dp_>making two-way block signal a separate type may help actually
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14:03<DanMacK>Hey all
14:03<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
14:03<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 39 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: * andythenorth only ever builds PBS
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14:09<V453000>andythenorth you caused something terrible happen
14:10<@Alberth>hi hi
14:10<andythenorth>is win
14:10<andythenorth>most winning 32bpp / EZ thing ever
14:11<V453000>is realistic
14:15<Clockworker>that's hilarious
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14:20<Supercheese>signal YETI
14:20<Supercheese>what hath science wrought?
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16:10<drac_boy>sorry to ask this again but still just a little confused about it... if a building is larger than 1x1 is it generally broken into sections?
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16:18<drac_boy>hm thanks, may just think of offloading that to someone else but we'll see what happens in meanwhile :)
16:18<drac_boy>hows your ongoing gripes with firs economy anyway?
16:19<@Alberth>stable, I think, mostly making other economies :)
16:20<andythenorth>it’s “done"
16:24<drac_boy>one slight long grf question - can an industry grf possibly actually check if any train grfs loaded has a specific cargotype listed or not?
16:25<andythenorth>not afaik
16:29<drac_boy>thought it maybe seemed like a silly idea but had to still ask anyhow. thanks :)
16:30<drac_boy>almost imagined a refinery that would just accept oil for all trains but could accept chemical too if such trainset knew how to carry it - thats why I asked :)
16:31<drac_boy>(I know its sorts the other way around from where a trainset checks for industry)
16:33<drac_boy>anyway just going to work on the trains alone for now...everything else can just wait after all
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17:06*andythenorth bed
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19:43<drac_boy>how doing as usual?
19:43<sim-al2>pretty good
19:44<drac_boy>and btw about our frequent talks before there is one thing that some people have mentioned .. the GG1 was steam-era electric design while the E44 was diesel-era design and I rather think theres some point in that
19:45<drac_boy>(and especially given that after the GG1 the use of idler axles was rather getting very rare, other than for weight-carrying purposes in A1A trucks)
19:45<sim-al2>GG1 has a lot in common with the steam designs of the time, pilot trucks, the frame design, etc
19:46<drac_boy>on the contrast .. there can be a such thing as maybe too many driver axles .. one moment I'll show you an example
19:47<sim-al2>Of course, the locomotives tended to feature pilot trucks because the rigid driver-frame became somewhat unstable at speed
19:48<sim-al2>In the ~30 years between the GG1 and the E44, suspension design improved a lot
19:49<drac_boy> named Centipede and even eventually built with fewer engines (basically it was a bunch of small V8's per shell as I recall from magazine) than originally planned for tho
19:49<drac_boy>PRR used them for horseshoe curve banking duty as one example tho least they weren't lemons from the start thankfully
19:49<sim-al2>The E44 had nose-suspended traction motors, as opposed to the GG1's quill drive, though
19:52<sim-al2>Baldwin did suffer from a failure to advance their designs though, the Centipedes had many steam locomotive-like characteristics, leading to more difficult than the Alco and EMD diesels that were arriving in the following years
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19:57<drac_boy>at least the "babynose" diesel was a lot more 'conventional' even if it was not as numerous as other none-emd units (alco etc)
19:57<drac_boy>even B&O bought a few of these I think
19:58<sim-al2>The CNJ even had a dual-cab version
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19:59<sim-al2>I've always wondered why dual-cabs failed to catch on here even in passenger service, it's not like a Geep had great long-hood visibility
19:59<drac_boy>actually its likely to do with cost ... the control stands among other things
20:00<sim-al2>Cab cars have the same though
20:00<drac_boy>thats same reason why many GP7 and to smaller degree GP9 often came with certain pared-down configurations
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20:01<drac_boy>a GP7 without MU and a smallish fuel tank, and even non-26L brakestand? sure you can have it, likely as cheap as they could even sell it
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20:01<sim-al2>Nearly all commuter operations that survived beyond the 60's started using cab cars, although I suppose run-arrounds wouldn't have been possible around that time anyway
20:01<drac_boy>and it also somewhat explains why the geep B units were slight popular with some railroads till the cost of cab vs non-cab finally just didn't pan out as much
20:01<drac_boy>the GP60B ones are a bit of funny oddity I don't quite get tho but to our own
20:02<drac_boy>(as its a very late unit, not part of the first generation diesels)
20:02<sim-al2>I don't see how stripping those features down saved much money, the control system is already there anyway and I doubt 26L cost much more than maintaining older valves recovered from early equipment
20:02<drac_boy>btw commuter railroads past the steam era often used push-pull to avoid runarounds at busy cities
20:03<sim-al2>Most of those passenger geeps were built with steam generators, and thus needed water tanks
20:03<drac_boy>well sim-a12 the cost indeed was noticeable back then a little like how your 20MB hd costed a lot more than a later 80MB one did
20:03<drac_boy>(poor anatomy I know but still)
20:05<sim-al2>The 26L had longer times between maintenace though
20:06<drac_boy>one interesting slight abnormality (if you want call it that) with a few GP7 orders was re them coming with arch bar trucks ... I imagine it was due to the particular small railroad's shop familiarization
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20:09<drac_boy>about passenger geeps, actually .. theres one that I've found interesting for some reason
20:10<drac_boy>guess what emd did when they ran into the problem of needing space for the big water tank? just throw the air tanks onto the roof instead ;)
20:10<drac_boy> that shows a good view of it
20:11<drac_boy>as I recall fans nicknamed them torpedoes which I think seem to have merit
20:11<sim-al2>Hmmm, didn't notice but there's 4 of the tanks, not the two you can normally see...
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20:11<drac_boy>well yeah ground view can make it look like only two ... I think
20:12<sim-al2>I wonder if the regular tanks are bigger or there's two shoved under the frame of normal geeps
20:12<drac_boy>and that photo also seem somewhat early because of still having these Harrison coaches behind the bilevels
20:13<sim-al2>I don't think the Harrisons were gone until the 70's though
20:13<drac_boy>btw as I remember the fuel/water tank was basically a single assembly with the water sitting in middle and the fuel being a "U" saddle around it ... that was a carryover from the F design where the hot fuel returned to tank from engine kept the water tank from freezing up
20:16<drac_boy>can't find a good outline photo so hope you can understand that description? ^
20:17<sim-al2>Apparently the single-level coaches were in service through at least 1974
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20:19<drac_boy>btw I found some outline drawings for the geep tho .. apparently the air would had gone into cylinders located between the rear truck and the fuel or fuel/water tank .. but of course for heavier trains or longer heating distance I guess they took this empty space for extra capacity therefore the "torpedoes" on roof
20:21<drac_boy>heres one if you want to look
20:21<sim-al2>Quite a lot of equipment worldwide has air reserviors tucked perpendicular to the length of the car, but EMD and GE seem to have preferred long fairly small diameter reserviors along the frame (or sometimes on the roof)
20:21<sim-al2>Yeah, that arrangement is pretty common elsewhere
20:23<drac_boy>btw I can't recall exactly which one now but I know some rather small gas/diesel locomotives probably had very little chassis space to use (especially if its a 2- or 3-coupled axles) so they put a big tank right in the front above the buffers
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20:29<sim-al2>There's some Czech/Slovakian (built during the 80's) electric locomotives with the reservoirs between the bogies and the end plate of the frame
20:30<drac_boy>heh actually czech kinda reminds me of something I looked into before, one moment :)
20:30<sim-al2>Note the spoked wheels too:
20:32<drac_boy> thats a sideway-cooled fan assemble under the seat, and guess where all the fuel is? sitting between the cargo rack and the front tire :->
20:32<drac_boy>probably the only one scooter/motorcycle I've heard of where the fuel isn't located somewhere near the middle
20:32<sim-al2>Oh my
20:33<drac_boy>they sold a lot of them so apparently they were probably still safe enough tho
20:33<drac_boy>I dunno tbh, after all
20:34<sim-al2>Considering the alternatives...
20:35<drac_boy>HEH oh boy, 2-stroke smelly cars that even had unrecycleable "plastic" body as well
20:35<sim-al2>Behold, the Trabant in it's natural habitat:
20:37<drac_boy>at least funny enough I recall some (I have no idea how long it went on for before the car was discounted post-wallfall) trabants actually ran on cleaner vw engines (so 4-stroke for sure, dunno what size)
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21:02<drac_boy>if you're still there I got one more for you thats a NDM-1 and its almost like a smaller-and-dieselized version of the milwaukee bipolar if you think about it from an american modeller's viewpoint :)
21:03<drac_boy>talk about being unusually an articulated diesel locomotive even although the total length isn't special enough to have really required it
21:04<drac_boy>(cue japan having many diesel locomotives with 3 trucks but still running on one rigid chassis for comparison sake)
21:04<sim-al2>Well actually...
21:06<sim-al2>There are various early designs, but mass produced designs include the DF50 and DF200. The DD51 gets honorable mention for having a center support bogie between the two end powered bogies
21:07<sim-al2>Various US locomotives have been exported to South America; those going to the narrow gauge lines tend to end up with 4 bogies attached together in pairs, in order to fit enough motor capacity into the smaller space
21:07<drac_boy>yeah the DD51 did always seem like it would look strange without the middle truck .. given how when looked at from the side it looks like a rather long locomotive (not helped by the low hoods giving off that perception)
21:12<drac_boy>btw while we're at japan. I always wondered about the real origin behind the DE10 design considering that even if steam boiler weight had made 3 axles required .. how come it has an irregular 3+2 pattern rather than just carrying an idler axle in the front truck?
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21:13<sim-al2>Tractive effort probably
21:13<drac_boy>(I could maybe be wrong one day but I believe its pretty much the only diesel with asymmetric tractions)
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21:14<sim-al2>It's already a lightweight, an idler would hurt it on freight duty
21:15<drac_boy>so no C'C' then?
21:15<sim-al2>Probably not so important today, where the main duties are working MU transport from the factories and various shunting, but they were replacing various freight engines throughout
21:15<drac_boy>thats why the DE10 has had me wonder about its origin sometimes
21:15<sim-al2>Not, the bogie is not actually a C either, it's an articulated A'A'A'
21:15<sim-al2>One of the early self-steering trucks
21:17<sim-al2>It's probably worth noting that the DD51 and the DE10 have more or less the same engines, just the DD51 is rated ~1000hp per engine while the DE10 had a newer ~1200hp variant
21:17<drac_boy>either way theres always the DD14 and how there were more than 20 of them. talk about a very specialized locomotive (I've never seen a photo of one working summer trains) but apparently even in modeller world they're still quite popular too tho
21:18<sim-al2>Yeah, there's not too much in the way of English sources on them, and slogging through translations is hard
21:19<sim-al2>There was a design very much like the German diesel-hydraulics, and though it wasn't too successful, it led to the design of the DD51
21:20<drac_boy>but if you don't have much snow or just want to do a quick clean-up of station tracks you can just call in one of these instead:
21:20<drac_boy>the adjustable mini-plow in front of the main plow at front end is an interesting touch too
21:21<drac_boy>and the rear end is another business
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21:25<sim-al2>There's always the big version too:
21:28<drac_boy>anyway going off for a bit before going to bed so have fun allright?
21:28<sim-al2>Not sure if Canada or Japan:
21:29<drac_boy>eh? the road things in background says 0% canadian ;)
21:29<sim-al2>Although central Japan can get pretty crazy...
21:29<sim-al2>Yeah, this appears to be a relative of the DE10
21:29<drac_boy>heh, well have a good day/night allright? :)
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 01 00:00:23 2016