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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-03

---Logopened Thu Mar 03 00:00:25 2016
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02:40<andythenorth>o/
02:40<andythenorth>who here? Anyone?
02:41<V453000>hy
02:43<andythenorth>lo V453000
02:43<andythenorth>why wouldn’t I change grfid for FIRS 2?
02:43<andythenorth>it’s total savegame break
02:43<andythenorth>and then FIRS 1 is still avaialble on bananaannanaannans
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02:45<V453000>idk XD
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02:47<V453000>sounds like a sensible thing to do
02:50<V453000>yesterday I was actually playing with BRIX
02:50<V453000>discovered that the mass white kind of hurts eyes after a while of playing
02:55<andythenorth>interesting
02:55<andythenorth>is it white or greige?
02:56<andythenorth>looks greige to me :)
02:58<andythenorth>for my €0.02, it will be the lack of texture that does it
02:58<andythenorth>the effect will vary by screen type and configuration also
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03:17<andythenorth>V453000: did the game you played have a lot of tracks?
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04:38<qunow>what's town car newgrf?
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05:15<V453000>andythenorth: not horribly much :P and yeah, it might be the lack of texture
05:15<V453000>I might try to add some, should be fairly easy
05:15<andythenorth>I looked a bit
05:15<andythenorth>I think it’s two things
05:15<andythenorth>the edge of the tracks is ragged
05:15<andythenorth>which is nice
05:15<andythenorth>but put put it over totally flat texture, and look at it for n hours
05:15<andythenorth>eyes hurty
05:16<V453000>yeah
05:16<andythenorth>there’s literal physics about the way human eye follows certain shapes
05:16<V453000>third thing is that when you mix it with 8bpp/x1 zoom newgrfs, it gets particularly insane because the super clean collides with rough
05:17<V453000>basically cause of same logic
05:17<V453000>at least some form of texture would help a ton in many aspects
05:19<andythenorth>airports can be rotated :o
05:19*andythenorth just discovered
05:23<V453000>ogfx+ only?
05:41<andythenorth>think so
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08:16<qunow>How many kilometer is one tile in openttd? just realized it take more than a year for my ship to make a round trip across its both destinations
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08:24<@planetmaker>there is no general applicable scale
08:24<@planetmaker>thus the answer is 15m to 1000km or so
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08:26<qunow>Or is there any km/h to tile/day conversion formula?
08:27<qunow>and ia it possible to male.the android ver run in background ..?
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08:29<Eddi|zuHause>there is a formula to convert km/h to tiles/day, but i don't think anybody has fully written it out somewhere
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, it doesn't work with diagonal tracks
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>but basically how it works: every tile is made of 16 steps, each step is made of 256 substeps, every tick your vehicle advances by 2 substeps for every unit of km/h-ish. and a day has 74 ticks
08:35<qunow>So it is *74*2/16/256 And thus 100km/h = 3.61 tiles/day. I'd assume diagonal mean multiply by 1.41?
08:35<qunow>*divided by
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, diagonals don't work that way.
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08:44<Eddi|zuHause>sporadically people tried to sprinkle factors of 1.5 in, but it's all very inconsistent
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13:06<DanMacK>Hey hey
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13:15<@Alberth>ho ho
13:15<@Alberth>andy got scared :p
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14:04<andythenorth>o/
14:04<@Alberth>o/
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14:44<andythenorth>is cat?
14:44<@Alberth>dan is
14:47*andythenorth must stop buying things on ebay
14:47<SpComb>buy cat on ebay?
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14:48<andythenorth>sell cat
14:48<SpComb>oh
14:48<SpComb>like https://xkcd.com/325/
14:50<andythenorth>fair
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15:07<V453000>so rendering various cameras from blender is apparently impossible
15:07<V453000>on a scale of 0-10 this is beyond bullshit
15:08<andythenorth>:P
15:08<V453000>you have to duplicate the fucking scenes and render each separately
15:09<V453000>which is batch-able already
15:09<V453000>but still
15:09<V453000>WHY
15:09<andythenorth>because you haven’t fixed it yourself with a patch? o_O
15:09<V453000>it's like why openttd has original acceleration as default
15:09<V453000>fuck open source
15:09<andythenorth>bad V453000
15:10<andythenorth>now pay a fine
15:10<V453000>I would honestly love to pay even like $200 for Blender, if it had proper features for professional workflows
15:10<V453000>just to pay a bunch of monkeys who process pizza and coffee into code and fix those features
15:11<V453000> /offending python programmers done for today
15:11<andythenorth>I thought you used max?
15:11<andythenorth>like proper CGI people?
15:12<V453000>I use both
15:12<V453000>Blender is factorio
15:12<V453000>but I am using it for my new trains just to learn it better for work
15:12<V453000>even though Blender definitely does many things better than Max, the lack of basic features in some spots is just insanely ridiculous
15:13<V453000>I do miss the way of mesh modelling from Max, but there are some things which compensate for it, especially in texturing/UVmapping area, and proper GPU support
15:16<V453000>also I have to admit that I simply enjoy discovering/comparing 3D softwares
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15:17<V453000>because if you try to get this info from anywhere, you usually read shit spewed by max users how blender is shit and whatever because of cheap prejudice, or you read shit spewed by blender users how max is corporate evil overpriced shit, but neither of the groups actually has experience with the other software, or definitely not to the point to be able to legitimately compare them
15:17<V453000>which is also why I am putting even more time into blender although I am not super amazed by the modelling, to discover more of it's functions and create a better workflow
15:18<V453000>obviously the fact that it helps me with my performance at work is important
15:26<V453000>jesus fuck, CLUNKY
15:26<V453000>so you can link a camera between scenes
15:26<V453000>but then you can't view it because it isn't a camera but an instance XD
15:26<V453000>fuck me
15:27<V453000>ok it doesn't render either
15:27<V453000>._.
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16:24<V453000>k solved, but what a heap of horse shit
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16:30<@planetmaker><V453000> because if you try to get this info from anywhere, you usually read shit spewed by max users how blender is shit and whatever because of cheap prejudice, or you read shit spewed by blender users how max is corporate evil overpriced shit, but neither of the groups actually has experience with the other software, or definitely not to the point to be able to legitimately compare them <--- that is often the case for many things
16:30<@planetmaker> like these
16:30<@planetmaker>nothing beats doing ones own comparison by hands-on experience :)
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16:53<V453000>yeah planetmaker
16:53<V453000>it is everywhere, but in software it feels the most apparent to me
16:53<V453000>especially in 3D because each suite takes years to master
16:55<V453000>btw word fucked is apparently in openttd code XD our server had it as password
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17:36<@planetmaker>tehehe :)
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18:49<drac_boy>hi
18:49<sim-al2>https://i.imgur.com/YM9KvDL.jpg
18:52<drac_boy>if you're talking about sloped platforms you need to check the pitas-something rack railroad in switzerland :P
18:52<sim-al2>I can't read the sign, but if you're in a wheelchair that platform isn't going to work out well
18:52<drac_boy>its "steppered" as I recall
18:53<sim-al2>Yeah, most funicular's seem to do the step thing, this one is rather odd for having such a steep slope
18:56<drac_boy>also if I recall right theres been at least one interesting one that converted from cable to rack .. probably to do with traffics or some other economics (reminds me a bit of the glasgow metro history tho, was first a rope railroad then later got electric traction)
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18:59<drac_boy>btw if you want talk about another kind of problem for disabled people, try this http://citytransport.info/Digi/2946a.jpg
18:59<drac_boy>old photo, I can't recall if they
18:59<drac_boy>they're still running the curved platforms or have closed these stations for nearby straight ones*
18:59<sim-al2>Seems to have been common for a cable or later a rack system to be installed, and then replaced with electric traction (or banking engines) later on
19:00<sim-al2>"Please mind the gap"
19:01<drac_boy>more like "please mind the literal gap" ;) as usually that kind of announcement is talking about <1 inch gaps tho :)
19:04<sim-al2>Check out page 2 here: http://www.jreast.co.jp/press/2014/20140702.pdf
19:05<sim-al2>Even Japan has that problem, having platforms on curves sucks if you want to elevate it properly
19:09<drac_boy>oh about japan, they always seem to have interesting traffics - sometimes doing things I never seen outside japan either
19:10<drac_boy>like how about the commuter platform actually having a signal located mid-platform so its possible for an arriving train to creep into the platform even before the prior train has completely cleared out?
19:10<drac_boy>that or a 3-way junction having trains timed so close together that you sometimes wonder what would happen if a turnout motor was just one second too slow :->
19:11<sim-al2>Interlocking is always a part of turnouts like that
19:12<sim-al2>The train can't be cleared if the rails don't complete an electrical circuit
19:13<drac_boy>I know, what I really meant was I can't imagine the traffic shock if one train had to slow/stop at an unplanned signal
19:13<drac_boy>at least most rail traffic is spaced much further apart
19:13<sim-al2>Delays can and do happen, but there's huge crews of rail workers around to fix stuff quickly
19:14<drac_boy>theres at least two things in the old system that seem to have been reduced or completely erased and its probably for the best tho...
19:15<drac_boy>1. specially hired pushers to cram people into overpacked trains (I'm not sure if this is still around anywhere anymore) and 2. drivers risking heavy punishment for letting a train be just a little late, as I recall this was what caused one of the rather bad emu accident where the train took a curve too fast and slammed into a trackside (in a manner speaking) apartment
19:16<sim-al2>1. That seemed to happen up to the early 2000's, but most routes have gotten longer trains and signalling upgrades so they don't have to do that anymore
19:18<sim-al2>2. JR West has been heavily critcized for that, to the point that a number of top executives left. That crash happened just west of Osaka near Amagasaki
19:18<drac_boy>ah, found it in the wiki list as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash
19:18<drac_boy>heh there we go
19:20<drac_boy>at least for most part japan seem to have designed a good system (mind you I still think of one kalbmach Trains article that basically quoted "fra would have never allowed any japan trains in usa, but then again japan is designed around preventing rather than withstanding accidents" which does have some truth in it
19:20<sim-al2>Competition among railway companies around Osaka is far more intense than even Tokyo, with companies acclerating schedules and buying new equipment
19:21<sim-al2>The FRA's authority is mostly related to running trains on the national network, plenty of metro systems run their equipment to much more reasonable standards
19:22<drac_boy>mind you I haven't really checked too well about this but I wonder if theres any non-japan tilting dmu's around
19:23<sim-al2>BR Class 221
19:23<drac_boy>japan mainly only designed them because of the unelectrified route up north and that beside tilting was an easy way to shave the timetables after all
19:24<drac_boy>ah I didn'
19:24<drac_boy>I didn't know there was a diesel version of the pento trainset* (curse a sensitive Return key I got here...gota fix it on weekend uhh)
19:24<sim-al2>Also the German Class 612, the "RegioSwinger"
19:26<sim-al2>It's pointing out that the Class 612 and it's predecessors had many problems that took a long time to overcome
19:27<sim-al2>The ICE TD also has tilitng, but the problems were so bad there that it's sometimes considered a failure, although units are being leased to Denmark for now
19:27<drac_boy>heh oh THAT ... I recall the railway europe magazine said something about lot of software issues including not being able to MU together (at least *the* hardware side of that worked just fine tho)
19:27<drac_boy>re the 612's that is ^
19:28<sim-al2>Hmmm, wikipedia article for the TD has been updated, they are going to be scrapped this year...
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19:29<sim-al2>Well, after December anyway
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19:30<drac_boy>btw about tilting failures...
19:30<sim-al2>The Japanese units have had some problems too, but those seem related to JR Hokkiado's maintanence practices
19:30<drac_boy>why did noone noticed that a LRC without the "C" was really not much better than a standard F7/F9? ;)
19:31<drac_boy>at least the then-matched coaches still got reused with the F40PH for longer so that was one good thing anyhow
19:31<sim-al2>Needed to have a fast domestic-built train
19:32<drac_boy>bombardier did try that .. the politics didn't quite buy into it tho
19:32<drac_boy>was like I think called Jet Train or something close
19:36<drac_boy>oh btw the gov wants to put over $1B into bombardier already .. I'm like "uhhh a jet plane does NOT mate with the kyoto stuff" ... no comment on why for a while I've been already thinking about leaving this country but to our own merits
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19:39<sim-al2>It's not like most western countries don't pump lots of money into their national "presitage" companies anyway
19:40<sim-al2>Apparently some of the design work put into the LRC made it into the Acela coaches though
19:41<drac_boy>and the alberta politics keep complaining a LOT when anyone accuses their tarsand oil stuff .... I'm like X_X
19:42<sim-al2>Probably not a good time to be in the tarsands industry, especially when all the "easy" oil sources are slowing down production
19:44<drac_boy>well tarsand is very damaging in two ways..both excessive oil consumption and re the big landscape scar ... so no further comment from me :->
19:44<sim-al2>Yeah, not really the nicest system at all
19:45<drac_boy>coal is somewhat a bit split .. I mean many mines are using underground tunnel which is ok .. its the general consumption of coal that is more of the issue tho (outside being used in steel mills etca ofc)
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19:50<drac_boy>anyhow back to some more rail topics .. just curious but what do you think of re active vs passive tilting mecahnisms?
19:50<drac_boy>I know some of it depends on general rail route conditions too but even then
19:50<sim-al2>I suppose it's up to the design and the situation
19:51<sim-al2>Active tilt systems seem to have a bit more troubled past, especially the hydraulic systems
19:52<drac_boy>passive isn't good if you got a lot of old fashioned turnouts (is it a wonder that the Turbotrain actually had a booklet warning to stay seated under motion at one specific station?)
19:52<sim-al2>The electric actuators seem to be a lot better
19:52<drac_boy>but for modern rails (UIC turnouts too) .. passive probably works pretty well
19:53<sim-al2>I have to wonder if the turnout thing is more of a Talgo-style design issue
19:54<sim-al2>The JNR era 381 series had passive tilt, although apparently those units carried seatback sick bags
19:54<sim-al2>I've read that the tilt on the British ATP was a little *too* good, in the sense that perfect compensation caused nausea in many people
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19:55<lastwisher>hi guys
19:56<lastwisher>i have a small problem, about client code anyone can help ?
19:56<drac_boy>heh actually the APT was a rather early experience at tilting .. noone knew about the downward sensulations ... cue everyone there by then knowing to do less-than-full tilting from that point onward
19:56<ST2>lastwisher: dnt ask to ask ^^
19:56<ST2>just make your question :P
19:56<lastwisher>heheh :)
19:57<lastwisher>st2 at everywhere
19:57<drac_boy>the turnout isn't talgo style .. in usa the turnouts are old 15kph limited ones with sharp diverges ... hence why the turbotrain could "rock" a lot at the busy station
19:57<ST2>known fact :P
19:57<drac_boy>but in europe they have long by then known how to design high speed turnouts that even a passive tilting system wouldn't have really noticed them much
19:58<sim-al2>No, the top-hung pendelum style made famous by Talgo, but found on the Turbo trains and the experimental units for the New Haven and others
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19:58<lastwisher>ok i want to use some functions at a rail_cmd.cpp on rail_gui.cpp but i dont see any headers, and when i try to include rail_cmd.cpp to rail_cmd.cpp i get already defined errors (i thing double include) how i can handle this ?
19:58<drac_boy>oh well.. the turnout speed thing is true nevertheless
19:59<sim-al2>Also, 15 kph is an incredibly low speed limit, even for old styles
20:00<sim-al2>Possible at stations, but that's seems very detrimental to running trains to any kind of tight schedule
20:04<drac_boy>btw about the APT .. this is APT-E but still .. a diesel-hauled test train (looks like either panto or rail ride test to not have the end cars present) somehow didn't brake enough and went a little past the rails heh http://www.old-dalby.com/images/185_on_floor.jpg
20:04<sim-al2>*opps*
20:05<sim-al2>Is that the buffer that's underneath the front?
20:05<drac_boy>no idea heh .. but looks like all axles are down on the gravel :)
20:06<drac_boy>or as an american would had quoted "on the ground!" .. not sure if british english had an equival to that
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20:13<drac_boy>actually heres another one from uk http://image-archive.org.uk/wp-content/MAX/2011_04/turntable-accident.jpg seem like classic case of locomotive not being set into neutral properly while being turned around
20:15<drac_boy>has happened quite a number of times as far as reported history seem to say (and its no surprise that even Awdry used one of them as a basis for one episode too)
20:16<drac_boy>and heres poor gordon doing the same thing http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r4ekccGZmyE/VM1SGPqrwTI/AAAAAAAABHk/5Y7DmUbaEGo/s1600/Off%2Bthe%2BRails.png
20:19<sim-al2>Heh, always seems to make a mess
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20:26<drac_boy>btw if you're up for some long reading this is a pretty good list http://www.pegnsean.net/~railwayseries/database.htm even if sometimes some of them are a bit hard to believe at first (like book #3 story #2)
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20:42<drac_boy>anyway going off for tonight now
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 04 00:00:27 2016