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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-05

---Logopened Sat Mar 05 00:00:28 2016
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02:50<_johannes>hi
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02:56<andythenorth>o/
02:58<V453000>hy
02:59<greeter>greetings
03:01<V453000>hm x16 zoom would be useful for debugging x4
03:02<greeter>hmm, i'm thinking of trying to run an openttd server, and i found the page https://wiki.openttd.org/System_Requirements but it seems to be a bit outdated. is there a minimum requirements page that is up to date that i can read?
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03:11<V453000>andythenorth: ever did offsets at 4 am in the morning?
03:11<V453000>it's better than usual
03:11<andythenorth>I probably did
03:11<andythenorth>I don’t remember anything from those times, except the pain
03:12<V453000>then you remember everything
03:13<andythenorth>I used to do dumb stuff, like walk into door frames and so on
03:14<V453000>XD
03:15<greeter>walking into doors is dumb? oh dear...
03:17<V453000>haha my vehicles on straight tracks fit the bounding boxes
03:17<V453000>me is proud
03:18<andythenorth>wot larks
03:20<V453000>aliigning x4 zoom is so bullshit that I even resided to using bounding boxes
03:20<V453000>insanity
03:22<andythenorth>now coffee
03:22<V453000>JAVA
03:24<andythenorth>I had to stop drinking tea when I had babies
03:24<andythenorth>I drank so much I lost the taste
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03:25<V453000>:d
03:25<V453000>do babies taste like tea?
03:30<V453000>let's try to make all offsets at x4 divide-able by 5
03:30<V453000>4*
03:38*andythenorth makes all railcars 8/8
03:38<andythenorth>for tidy stations
03:38<V453000>nice
03:38<V453000>your sanity just progressed :P
03:39<andythenorth>railcar != wagon :P
03:39<V453000>ok wtf is a railcar?
03:39<andythenorth>these bus-on-rails things
03:39<V453000>oh fuck sakes
03:40<V453000>k you get nothing :P
03:43<andythenorth>shame 16/3 isn’t a nice round number
03:43<andythenorth>I could do 3 units in a 1 tile articulated train
03:43<andythenorth>5/6/5 isn’t worth it
03:44*andythenorth must take child #1 to football
03:44<andythenorth>bbl
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04:43<_johannes>I have the graph exporter now in a first useful version
04:44<_johannes>has someone a C++ compiler and a medium or large map in order to test it?
04:46<_johannes>a C++ compiler is not required if you trust me that I don't send you a virus ;)
05:00<greeter>hmm, i have a c++ compiler, but i'm not sure about the other
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05:08<_johannes>greeter: which OS, and which version is your compiler?
05:09<greeter>ubuntu 15.10 64 bit. i'll get more details in a moment
05:09<_johannes>that should be sufficient :)
05:10<greeter>gcc version 5.2.1 20151010 (Ubuntu 5.2.1-22ubuntu2) (a ton of compiler switches though. i'll need to pastebin those)
05:11<_johannes>that should work , no need for the switches
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05:11<greeter>alright then
05:11<_johannes>I'll extend the README a bit and send it to you soon
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05:12<greeter>to be honest, i'm rather heavily intoxicated, you may need to smack me several times, sorry :-S
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05:13<_johannes>haha intoxicated with alcohol? :P
05:13<greeter>i'm willing to compile source code though if need be
05:13<greeter>oh yeah... the room is spinning rather rapidly
05:14<_johannes>lol...
05:18<greeter>back, sorry about the delay, i fell down the stairs twice
05:20<_johannes>:)
05:20<_johannes>can you run "dot" in a shell? what does it say?
05:20<greeter>i'll check
05:20<greeter>The program 'dot' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
05:20<greeter>sudo apt-get install graphviz
05:20<greeter>i'll install it if need be
05:22<_johannes>greeter: yes, it's currently required
05:22<greeter>ok, i'll try installing it now. if other installation instructions are required, please let me know
05:22<_johannes>should not
05:23<_johannes>I have the code here now: https://github.com/JohannesLorenz/OpenTTD
05:23<_johannes>README: https://github.com/JohannesLorenz/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/mkgraph/README.md
05:23<greeter>hmm. i'm fetching 12.4 Mb of data right now, but i'll check that file
05:24<greeter>it installed before i could read it. so what's next?
05:24<_johannes>what do you mean by the last sentence?
05:25<_johannes>ah I get it
05:25<_johannes>ok :)
05:25<greeter>i installed a package called graphviz, taking up an additional 12.4 megs of data, before i could read the file you showed me
05:26<greeter>anyhow, what needs to be done now?
05:26<_johannes>try cloning: git clone https://github.com/JohannesLorenz/OpenTTD.git
05:27<greeter>as a heads up, if i shouldn't have gotten this far now, don't worry about it. after all, if i shouldn't have gotten this far before, why am i this far now?
05:27<_johannes>and then maybe just try to do what's in the https://github.com/JohannesLorenz/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/mkgraph/README.md
05:27<greeter>cloning into a directory. because i'm on slow internet, this may take a while
05:27<_johannes>see "Installation"
05:28<_johannes>I'd like to find out if the README is self-explanatory
05:28<greeter>the git link you gave me is currently 14 percent done, so this may take a long time :-S
05:29<_johannes>the progress bar sometimes jumps up many percents at once, don't worry
05:29<greeter>it looks to me like the total download size is approximately 175 megabytes
05:30<greeter>that will take me some time to fetch
05:30<greeter>i'm willing to fetch it, just saying that i'm on a really slow connection, so it may take some time
05:30<_johannes>np ;)
05:31<greeter>or i may be misreading this and finding out that it's actually fetching at 186 kilobtytes per second, therefore not taking long :-S
05:31<greeter>do i need to remove previous installations of openttd?
05:33<_johannes>no
05:33<greeter>ok
05:33<_johannes>have you ever installed/compiled programs on linux?
05:33<greeter>i've compiled numerous programs
05:33<greeter>i have cloned the repo. what do i do now?
05:34<_johannes>go into the directory you've cloned it
05:34<greeter>i have cd'd into OpenTTD
05:34<_johannes>then: CC=clang CXX=clang++ ./configure --prefix=/where/you/want/to/install/it --enable-debug=3
05:34<_johannes>(I have installed it in /home/johannes/cprogs/openttd/install or something)
05:35<Xaroth|Work>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_(GNU/)Linux_and_*BSD
05:35<greeter>i'll run the first one
05:35<greeter>the CC environment variable is set, but it doesn't seem to be a gcc binary
05:35<greeter>please redefine the CC/CXX environment to a gcc binary'
05:35<greeter>i'll check the page
05:36<Xaroth|Work>the page pretty much shows step-by-step what to do
05:36<_johannes>greeter: you can also use CC=gcc CXX=g++ ...
05:37<greeter>i seem to be a bit lost i'm afraid :-S i'm sorry. i'll try that though
05:37<_johannes>ah np, either do that or install "clang" on ubuntu, it's both ok
05:38<_johannes>thanks Xaroth|Work
05:38<greeter>i'm afraid i'm a bit behind on the times. is clang a script argument?
05:38<_johannes>it's another compiler like gcc
05:38<greeter>ok
05:39<greeter>hmm... i'm sorry, i'm afraid i'm totally lost. would it help if i gave you the command i was using?
05:39<_johannes>yes
05:40<greeter>ok, the command i fed it was this: CC=clang CXX=clang++ ./configure --prefix=/where/you/want/to/install/it --enable-debug=3
05:40<_johannes>try "clang" in commandline, is it installed?
05:40<greeter>and i got the following 4 lines
05:40<greeter>detecting OS... UNIX
05:40<greeter>checking build system type... clang unusable
05:40<greeter>the CC environment variable is set, but it doesn't seem to be a gcc binary
05:40<greeter>please redefine the CC/CXX environment to a gcc binary
05:41<greeter>it says clang is not currently installed
05:41<_johannes>ok greeter , just try CC=gcc CXX=g++ ./configure --prefix=/where/you/want/to/install/it --enable-debug=3
05:41<_johannes>or install clang
05:41<greeter>ok
05:41<_johannes>(whatever you prefer)
05:41<greeter>i'll try to install clang
05:42<greeter>it says i need to get 212 megs of data. this could take some time :-S sorry
05:42<_johannes>:P
05:42<_johannes>ok then just use gcc
05:42<_johannes>that should also work
05:42<greeter>after grabbing the needed data?
05:42<_johannes>no, I mean, if you don't want to way that long
05:43<_johannes>then don't get clang, use gcc: CC=gcc CXX=g++ ./configure --prefix=/where/you/want/to/install/it --enable-debug=3
05:43<greeter>well i seem to be getting the data
05:45<greeter>i'll figure this one out
05:45<_johannes>ok, if you have difficulties, just ask
05:46<greeter>well i'm just fetching. wait till compilation :-P
05:47<greeter>configure: error: no video driver development files found
05:47<greeter>i have a fairly modern system. how can i fix this?
05:47<_johannes>oh good question...
05:48<greeter>i'll download the required files but i am a bit pressed for time :-S
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05:49<_johannes>hmm I really have no idea what that error means :(
05:49<_johannes>what are you downloading? clang
05:50<greeter>oh dear :-S hmm... well to be honest, i'm not sure... i'm rather intoxicated at this point :-S
05:50<_johannes>I've an idea
05:51<_johannes>try installing libsdl1.2-dev"
05:51<_johannes>without the "
05:54<greeter>installing
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05:55<greeter>configured with the switch "--without-liblzo2"
05:56<_johannes>that should be fine
05:56<greeter>it's compiling
05:56<_johannes>so if you configured successfully, try make and then make install
05:56<greeter>doing make now
05:56<_johannes>ok good, that can take
05:57<greeter>it's compiling the files :-D
05:58<_johannes>do you compile with gcc or clang?
05:58<greeter>to be honest, i'm not sure what is being used
05:59<_johannes>:D
06:00<greeter>currently i'm listening to ann margret singing a song for the flintstones. i'm out of it enough to think that i have no idea where on earth this train of thought this is going
06:00<_johannes>ok pls let me know when you've done "make install"
06:01<greeter>still on make atm
06:02<greeter>nergrf.cpp right now
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06:13<_johannes>greeter: how far is it?
06:13<_johannes>you can also abort and try make -j <number of cores you have>
06:14<greeter>linking seems to be done. i'll try make
06:15<greeter>hmm, i can't seem to make it work right now. i'll bbl
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07:33<Wolf01|Phone>o/
07:33<@Alberth>hi hi
07:33<Wolf01|Phone>Trains here are wonderful :D
07:34<@Alberth>we need a video link, or pictures :p
07:34<@Alberth>visiting a museum or so?
07:35<Wolf01|Phone>Right now I'm in hotel, its 21.35 now
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>japan?
07:36<Wolf01|Phone>But I visited some temples and palaces in Kobe, Osaka, Nara and now I'm in Kyoto
07:39<Wolf01|Phone>The railways are built a bit strange, they have 2 or 3 different railways for different operators for the same route, usually built at 100-200 meters of distance
07:39<Wolf01|Phone>It really looks a waste of space
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, if there's anything the japanese have plenty of, it's space... oh, wait.
07:40<Wolf01|Phone>Eheh :D
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>btw have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o
07:42<Wolf01|Phone>It's really cool that everything works like a metro, trains every 3-5 minutes and metro EMUs everywhere
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07:43<andythenorth>oh he gone
07:43<andythenorth>http://tokyorailwaylabyrinth.blogspot.co.uk/
07:43*andythenorth was going to post
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07:46<Wolf01|Phone>Mmh stupid irc client
07:46<Wolf01|Phone>Nice video :P
07:47<Wolf01|Phone>Also I've seen the longest suspended bridge, it's really huge
07:48<andythenorth>Wolf01|Phone: http://tokyorailwaylabyrinth.blogspot.co.uk/
07:48<Wolf01|Phone>What do you achieved this week? Made some pixels?
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07:49<andythenorth>some small ones
07:51<Wolf01|Phone>Eheh, I know the Tokyo's railways, I'm studying them because I'm moving there in 2 days
07:56<Wolf01|Phone>Ok boys, I'll leave soon, we'll see again in a week, or sooner if I'll be able to connect in decent hours ;)
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07:57<andythenorth>\o
07:57<andythenorth>bye Wolf01|Phone
07:57<@Alberth>bye
07:57<@Alberth>and hi andy :)
07:57<@Alberth>and Eddi
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08:21*andythenorth must sell some trains
08:21<andythenorth>but maybe not today
08:24<_johannes>If a train goes from station A to B via a depot, would you say that the connection A->B should be drawn in a route network?
08:25<_johannes>in reality, trains don't go to depots when they have passengers inside...
08:26<_johannes>on the other hand, some game player may have games where A->B is only reachable via a depot?
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>you should probably handle that case
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>also, conditional orders and stuff
08:29<_johannes>you mean that A->depot->B should be drawn as a usual route?
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>consider this case: player has turning around in stations disabled, and puts depots at the end of the platform, with "goto A; goto B" orders. the trains will always go to depot
08:31<_johannes>ah true!
08:31<_johannes>also... do many player use depots as waypoints, or is it more likely to use waypoints as waypoints?
08:31<_johannes>ah, dumb question
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>you should really not concern yourself with "which one do more players do". if the game mechanics allow it, someone will do it.
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>you should take the compiler construction approach here: it doesn't matter if the specs make sense. you implement them letter by letter.
08:35<_johannes>ok
09:04<fonsinchen> _johannes: You might check how cargodist does that. I've solved the exact same problem when doing the link prediction
09:04<fonsinchen>You can just use that code.
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09:21<_johannes>fonsinchen: What problem have you solved there?
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09:26<drac_boy>hi
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09:43<@Alberth>sequence of stations visited by a train, would be my guess
09:43<@Alberth>since you need that to route cargo
09:46<_johannes>ah, that problem is already solved
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09:57<drac_boy>hi mr.trainnut? hehe
10:02<sim-al2>oh hai
10:02<drac_boy>how doing?
10:03<sim-al2>I'm good
10:04<drac_boy>btw have I ever told you that I sometimes just don't understand some of the uk steam locomotives especially for having so few drivers etc?
10:04<sim-al2>2-2-2 seems especially suspect
10:05<sim-al2>*Welcome to SLIP CITY*
10:05<drac_boy>https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/17/2c/31/172c31f017a550d5400465d9735c0f48.jpg heres another one where part of the boiler and most of that coal are sitting over dead axles
10:06<sim-al2>You basically have to do that on tank locomotives though, that's probably a suburban design
10:06<drac_boy>well the 0-6-0T were used in a lot of pushpull and never had any issues, and thats 100% drivers :)
10:07<drac_boy>not to mention the 'ducks' handling these autocoaches as well
10:07<sim-al2>Those locomotives had to run full speed in either direction, so the support axle helps there
10:07<sim-al2>0-6-0 isn't particularly stable at speed though
10:08<sim-al2>Hence the popularity of 2 and 4 wheel pilot trucks
10:08<drac_boy>well they somehow ran them a lot tho which is all I can seem to say, especially a 0-6-0T terrier sharing the line with a mallard 0_o
10:09<drac_boy>admittly these drowsy looking freight 0-6-0 tenders ended up on local passenger trains a few times early on, not sure what anyone thought there
10:09<drac_boy>at least as they were local I guess they probably only had branch speeds to contend with
10:11<sim-al2>Yeah, branch lines often didn't have especially high scheduled speeds in that era
10:13<drac_boy>btw this at least is one reasonable tank locomotive ;) http://www.rickwebster.co.uk/Photos/7236.jpg especially the big water weight directly onto drivers and just a little bit of unpowered weight behind the cab floor
10:13<drac_boy>I forgot the nickname a magazine mentioned for these but it started with "big ____" something (doesn't surprise me seeing how there was the Big Bertha itself after all)
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10:17<drac_boy>mind you if you want something thats built to just go slow all the times, try a 0-4-0 with optional small water saddle and otherwise an equally-as-long-as-the-loco-itself little coal tender behind :)
10:17<drac_boy>the ffestington line not surprisingly had a few exactly like that
10:18<drac_boy>heres an interesting one with the boiler almost lost among all that water frame http://dams.llgc.org.uk/behaviour/llgc-id:1124156/fedora-bdef:image/reference
10:20<sim-al2>Hmm, that tender looks more like a mine cart
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10:21<drac_boy>yeah 2-axle tenders were sometimes a bit more crude than usual
10:21<drac_boy>in some instances it really used to be a 0-4-0T with small bunker but someone wised up and torch out the rear and throw a built-up flatcar or stripped down mineral car behind it to carry much more coal instead
10:22<drac_boy>(even usa did that for their industrial lines a long time ago too)
10:25<sim-al2>One of the LSWR Class 415 4-4-2Ts was used for almost 50 years on a small branchline whose curves prevented larger locomotives from operating
10:26<sim-al2>Sorry, two. They were built in the mid-1880's, and one became the last surviving member of the class, long enough to be preserved
10:26<drac_boy>no 0-6-0T with lateral motion? but hm actually you remind me of a different story which I recall was even in uk too...
10:27<sim-al2>They eventually fixed the curves so that 2-6-2T's could run
10:27<sim-al2>But the branch line closed 4 years later, in 1965
10:27<drac_boy>one branchline had a rather low tunnel under road or something to that effect where it couldn't be daylighted or so ... and the few locomotives assigned to stay on this line had their cab roof literally chopped down a bit which explained why they outlasted the conventional versions which were scrapped a long time ago
10:28<drac_boy>the line finally closed which bought the end of needing these "low height" locomotives, all scrapped a short time later
10:29<sim-al2>The viaduct still exists though: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Cannington_viaduct_010808.JPG
10:31<sim-al2>It's the Lyme Regis branch line, sufiiciently steep and curved enough that both engines needed to pull the six coach trains
10:31<drac_boy>btw I can't recall which class it was but there was one fleet of larger tank locomotives that were often used for suburban duty too .. story was that one was to be sent to the works for gauge cutdown as to be shipped to an island railway but this never happened and eventually the locomotive was moved to another shed before it finally got preserved and in that case it finally had its first coal-steamup test last year
10:32<sim-al2>The later 2-6-2Ts could do it with one engine though
10:32<drac_boy>wonder what kind of gauge work would had been required had it actually been carried out!
10:35<drac_boy>(because with the tank locomotive there doesn't seem to be a lot you can really do about clearance, even the cab roof is almost touching the boiler's top too on some classes)
10:39<drac_boy>either way slight change of topic: heres a tank that was designed to go fast in the first place, https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8c/42/2b/8c422bfec80434e754ee813386e3559e.jpg
10:40<drac_boy>always did find it a bit unique for re having no tender which one normally always expect
10:41<sim-al2>Seems that fuel could be a problem, but.... damn, haven't seen a streamlined tank before
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10:43<drac_boy>well fuel wasn't an issue when it was basically kinda like a "kangaroo" route, that is hop fast between only a few major points
10:51<drac_boy>btw I'm not sure but I suspect it was designed for bidirectional running as otherwise why else would they had wrapped the coal bunker in a round curve?
10:58<drac_boy>heres something thats not quite a tank locomotive but is quite queer to us people nowaday still heh http://www.gearedsteam.com/dunkirk/images/gw-wilson-1-log-rr-mrylnd.jpg and yeah thats the low-cost water tank near left side
11:17<drac_boy>either way have fun with whatever else you might had been doing..I'm going for now mainly re food
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11:19<_johannes>hmm just found out that you can have multiple trains in one group, even if they have different order lists
11:19<_johannes>it even makes sense, but is there a way to assign one common order to all trains in one group?
11:27<@Alberth>not that I know
11:28<@Alberth>but I never use groups, so I am not terribly interested in its capabilities
11:29<_johannes>hmm I find the feature practical for naming trains
11:30<_johannes>the group is displayed above each train
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11:37<@Alberth>ah, never give trains a name
11:37<@Alberth>I just buy enough until all cargo gets moved :)
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11:54<Hiddenfunstuff>too much of micromanagement of naming trains and grouping them
12:19<@Alberth>depends on how you play the game
12:20<@Alberth>if you model a real company if full detail, it fits your game play
12:21<@Alberth>if you just build tracks and move cargo, it doesn't fit (imho)
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12:53<Dakkus>Alberth: I kind of like giving train lines names. But giving individual names is pointless, because each train already has an unique identifier.
12:55<@Alberth>Ha, that's a new one, but I can see it could be useful
12:57<Dakkus>There even a mechanism for that.
12:57<Dakkus>Create a new train group, drag one of the trains into that.
12:58<Dakkus>Then choose that group and in the drop-down menu in the bottom of the screen choose "All trains with shared orders"
12:58<Dakkus>Then give the groups ome shortish identifier.
12:58<Dakkus>one*
12:59<Dakkus>Especially since I like to play with a maximum size map and very low population density, I end up having very important long trunk lines with up to 30 train consists serving one line.
13:00<Dakkus>(Also, my daylengthfactor is set to 9)
13:02<Dakkus>In the last 20 years I've gotten totally fed up with 90% of the map being covered by a single continuous railway intersection.
13:03<@Alberth>:)
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13:04<Dakkus>For the record, OTTD was the third game I ever bought in my life.
13:04<@Alberth>I tend to get very much lost at large maps
13:04<rapower>hi all Somthimes on ubuntu openttd does not save the game
13:04<rapower>its so frustrating if you load the old one and see 1gameyear ore more lost
13:04<@Alberth>Dakkus: I hope you mean TTD, OpenTTD is free :)
13:04<@Alberth>rapower: disk-space?
13:05<Dakkus>rapower: I'm far from an expert but that sounds very much like what has been complained to be idiotic behaviour n the ext4 filesystem.
13:05<Dakkus>alberth: Indeed :D
13:05<rapower>i save at every year pop up
13:06<rapower> and it worked well for 15game years now it missed up at 16
13:06<rapower>there is 60GB free space
13:07<rapower>Alberth: 512x512 is best to play
13:08<@Alberth>I usually play 256x512, or 512x512
13:08<@Alberth>128x1024 can be fun too :)
13:08<Dakkus>rapower: No fanciness such as user quotas on your system?
13:08<@Alberth>or 64x64 :p
13:08<@Alberth>no space for trains, really :)
13:08<rapower>workes fine here Dakkus in standard mode
13:09<rapower>ok i see thats a known problem i got to live with
13:09<Dakkus>Hmm, googled it? Interesting. A known problem in what?
13:09<rapower>its triggy if you hit the 500 train mark
13:09<Dakkus>Uh-oh, good to know.
13:09<Dakkus>I've got some 60 at the moment.
13:10<Dakkus>650.
13:10<rapower>i set the limits to 500 more cool playing to get free trains on piling stock
13:11<rapower>ok im off GN8 late in germany
13:11<Dakkus>When you play with the x-USSR set you have to pile stok :D
13:11<Dakkus>Ehh... Late? :D
13:11<Dakkus>It's 20:11 in Ukraine.
13:11<Dakkus>Or my clock is wrong?
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13:12<@Alberth>depending on how early to need to get up tomorrow I guess :)
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13:12<Dakkus>Yeah, but it's only a bit later than 19 in Germany.
13:12<Dakkus>I'm scared of perverts such as them!
13:13<@Alberth>:)
13:13<Dakkus>I remember when I crossed a stae border on the motorway in Germany.
13:14<Dakkus>And it said "Der Land der Frühaufsteher" ("The land of the early-wake-upper")
13:14<Dakkus>I don't want to see that monster, so it's a good thing the sign warns of it. But it was still a shock!
13:15<Dakkus>There's of course the positive thing that it's a danger only half a day. After the first half of the time I'm awake, it's already sleeping.
13:16<@Alberth>Hmm, I feel I must warn you, I get up early too :)
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13:20<@Alberth>http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1153056 haha, save problem on ubuntu, oh let's use root instead :p
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13:30<_johanne1>what is the encoding for openttd strings?
13:30<@Alberth>utf-8
13:30<_johanne1>thanks
13:31<@Alberth>but you're using the web interface right?
13:31<_johanne1>no
13:32<@Alberth>ah, ok
13:32<_johanne1>I just grep strings from savegames
13:32<@Alberth>there are even strings there?
13:32<@Alberth>it's mostly binary data, compressed
13:33<_johanne1>not directly, but there are numbers for cargo, and in the sources, there are strings for what the numbers mean
13:33<_johanne1>I export these strings with the graph exporter
13:34<@Alberth>hmm, wouldn't that fail with newgrf industries? unless you mean amounts of cargoes, I guess
13:36<_johanne1>what I mean is "oil", "passengers" etc
13:36<_johanne1>for most of my games, there are only ~ 10 cargoes ever transported
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13:42<@Alberth>play a game with FIRS :)
13:43<@Alberth>but then the industry newgrf defines the cargoes, and with it all strings
13:43<@Alberth>you only keep the 4 letter identification I think
13:43<_johanne1>what is FIRS?
13:44<@Alberth>first column http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes#Cargo_Labels
13:45<_johanne1>cool :(
13:45<_johanne1>*:)
13:45<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27521 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2016-03-05 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay: 5 changes by rionix88
13:46<_johanne1>languages really suck
13:46<_johanne1>why can not all people speak the same language?
13:46<_johanne1>setlocale() does not have any effect
13:46<_johanne1>with UTF-8
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13:46<@Alberth>they can, if only we would agree on which language that would be
13:47<@Alberth>and then you have the "minor" problem that some languages have concepts that do not exist at all in other languages
13:47<@Alberth>eg people in greenland have lots of words for different forms of snow and ice
13:48<@Alberth>I think people living in the desert have a lot less of such words :)
13:48<_johanne1>lol
13:50<@Alberth>I don't know what you're doing, but save games do not contain much text, unless you mean text of eg trains that you gave a name
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14:04<_johanne1>Alberth: I don't know either :)
14:05<_johanne1>my program just did output the cargo names from STR_JUST_CARGO_LIST , but some German letters are looking wrong
14:06<@planetmaker>but wth are you trying to do?
14:06<_johanne1>SetDParam(0, 1 << carg->Index()); GetString(buf, STR_JUST_CARGO_LIST, lastof(buf)); file.cargo_names.insert(std::make_pair(carg->Index(), buf));
14:06<@planetmaker>why grep the savegame for strings when you get them from the source code of all related programmes and NewGRFs?
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14:07<_johanne1>I did get the strings from the source, like above
14:07<_johanne1>after the code I showed you I just std::cout the file.cargo_names
14:08<@Alberth>carg->IsValid() checked?
14:08<_johanne1>Alberth: yes
14:08<_johanne1>it's just Ãl instead of Öl (German for "oil")
14:09<@Alberth>looks like X liter to me
14:09<_johanne1>np, I'll just have to find out how setlocale() works
14:12<@Alberth>ah, right
14:13<@Alberth>LOCALE=<something> ./openttd iirc, but I never really bothered with locale stuff
14:13<@Alberth>it's the first thing I disable, since it gets in the way when editing souce code
14:13<@Alberth>*source
14:14<@planetmaker>but... the locale shouldn't matter really, _johanne1 as you can set your preferred language in the game options - independent of locale
14:15<_johanne1>planetmaker: I know, but the exact problem is this:
14:15<_johanne1>I have a German game with things like Kohle, Öl, Passagiere
14:15<@planetmaker>_johanne1, from when I still had an ubuntu running, I know that it messed up fonts generally after hibernation. It was an ubuntu 14.x.
14:16<_johanne1>hmm I only did s2ram
14:16<@planetmaker>it was ticking me off enough that I replaced my ubuntu by fedora ;)
14:17<_johanne1>now, there should be a way for the converter to specify what kind of cargoes you'd like int the graph: "mkgraph --cargo=Passagiere,Kohle"
14:17<_johanne1>since the exporter does not link again openttd, it must know what "Kohle" actually is, which is why I store the word "Kohle" in the binary files that the converter expects
14:19<_johanne1>it's like this: openttd -> binary data (including string like "Öl") -> converter -> graph
14:21<_johanne1>anyways, maybe I'll just use English strings, most Germans probably understand what "passengers" means
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14:35<@Alberth>o/
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15:42<Eddi|zuHause>_johanne1: as long as openttd exports the language string correctly, it shouldn't matter what string or language it actually is
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>_johanne1: note that NewGRFs can change all cargos, so you can't rely on external data
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16:40<_johanne1>Eddi|zuHause: yes, this is also why I want to put the strings into the file
16:40<_johanne1>that way, there's no need to rely on what cargo the game offers
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i meant: just write out whatever language openttd is currently set to.
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>or potentially the 4-letter cargo label, for more technically inclined people
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>(incomplete) list of cargo labels: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoTypes#Cargo_Labels
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>note that it's actually just a 32-bit number, using 4 letters is just a convention
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17:07<_johanne1>ok, I'll probably use those 4-letter cargo labels, good point
17:07<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
17:08<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 46 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <andythenorth> but maybe not today
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---Logopened Sat Mar 05 17:40:05 2016
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18:48<drac_boy>hi
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19:32<sim-al2>http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Images/DLW/79018-Int-2002-08-23-Stuart-Mackay.jpg
19:33<drac_boy>that a long trolley?
19:33<sim-al2>Seems that camshaft-style controllers can be found on DMUs too
19:33<drac_boy>oh huh, interesting..maybe a commuter dmu re lot of stop-n-go
19:33<sim-al2>Nah, Derby Lightweight British dmu
19:33<drac_boy>would had been tiring to hold down the automatic brake bar on a long nonstop run otherwise
19:34<sim-al2>4 gear+neutral Electro-pnuematic gear selector on the right, 4 position electro-pnuematic throttle on the left
19:35<sim-al2>These had a deadman valve on the throttle, the brake controller is missing but would be to the right of the gear selctor
19:35-!-kais58_ is now known as kais58|AFK
19:35<sim-al2>Vaccum brakes too...
19:35-!-kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
19:35<sim-al2>http://www.railcar.co.uk/technology/brakes/
19:36<sim-al2>Choose to maintain compatibility with the coaches, since these were built in the mid-to-late 50's when lots of steam engines were still around in the UK
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19:37<sim-al2>Since air is needed for the controls, they had compressors and exhausters driven by the engines (and almost all had two engines per power car)
19:37<drac_boy>tbh I always found the whole vaccum-vs-air transition rather interesting...
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19:38<drac_boy>did you know that even the prototype Deltic was sent on a brake test and it took rather a long time to come to a full halt with vacuum which clearly pointed to the need for air brakes instead? :)
19:38<sim-al2>Vaccum makes sense for steam engines, as it does save the complexity of an air compressor (at the expense of the development that had already been made on air brakes)
19:40<sim-al2>But it's fairly terrible for diesels, as fairly specialized exhausters were needed, and the working pressure of a vaccum brake is far lower than air brakes, so you need bigger brake cylinders, reservoirs, etc
19:41<drac_boy>well I do know that some of the usa-sourced wartime steam for uk had air brake capacity tho, heres one example http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/archive2/Img_3171.jpg
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19:42<sim-al2>I believe most of the dual-fitted diesel locomtives actually used air for their own brakes, with the vaccum system controlled in parallel for the train
19:42<drac_boy>yeah I agree re diesel/electric having air
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19:44<drac_boy>actually I believe it was some hill-to-dockside electric railway that had the early use of regenerative brakes too ... small steeplecab-ish locomotive is all I can recall right now
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19:44<drac_boy>they were interested in it when the train hauled by electric instead of steam managed to stop in a shorter length
19:44<sim-al2>Strangely enough, compared to the US Budd DMUs, these regualarly towed coaches and even freight cars, despite having mechanical transmissions
19:45<drac_boy>well tbh if it was not supposed to haul wagons then it shouldn't be called a MU ... ;)
19:45<drac_boy>just my own nitpick heh
19:45<drac_boy>railbuses on the other hand often are designed to run slo or with one specially matched coach
19:46<sim-al2>Well, it's definetly a DMU, with powered cars and control trailers
19:46<drac_boy>slo=solo*
19:46<sim-al2>http://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/tail-loads/
19:47<sim-al2>The maximum load is not very high, a set with two power cars and a trailer car is only rated for 35 tons
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19:48<drac_boy>the VT98 was interesting one tho...always could either find one running alone or in varying mismash such as power-cab or power-trailer-power-cab etca
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19:50<drac_boy>interesting article
19:51<drac_boy>btw you want know something else?
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19:52<sim-al2>What?
19:52<drac_boy>the pre-rdc were a funny hodgepot brunch .. some of them rather ran just by themself their whole life while others were always finding themself being treated like a light locomotive instead re hauling anything (even a no-passengers-tonight coach Brill being found shoving grain hoppers around the silo track wasn't out of the question
19:56<sim-al2>Yeah, gasoline-electric railcars appeared on branch lines, and were generally successful, but there were accidents
19:56<sim-al2>Naturally the ones where the fuel ignitied were particularly ugly
19:56<drac_boy>this isn't usa but its still quite the same thought re no passengers that day http://tdu.to/a31346/SAR%20NG%20Brill%20Model%2075%20Railcar%20102.%20Port%20Pirie.%20N%20F%20Reed.jpg
19:58<sim-al2>Those untis weren't particuarly powerful either
19:58<drac_boy>btw many of the Brill's were actually converted to diesels (sometimes even ones out of a truck, but for occassional low-speed running this doesn't seem like a surprise) either due to the gas radiators being a pain and/or for fuel economization
19:59<drac_boy>well the brill usually could be had with about 100-400hp depending on age and whether rebuilt or not so for a quiet branchline this was plenty enough
19:59<sim-al2>Truck engines aren't uncommon in DMUs, although the newer ones often had more specialized designs than the 50's/60's designs
20:00<sim-al2>It seems the Model 55 had 68hp
20:01<sim-al2>Refitted from 1934 onward with a 102hp Gardner diesel, one with a Duetz later on
20:02<drac_boy>I checked, even a ge 44-ton had 2*180hp on most orders .. and wiki doesn't have a page for the lighter under-44ton models but I imagine it was much less power
20:02<drac_boy>so the brill had its place as a improper "passenger one route then shove a boxcar or two another day" I suspect heh
20:04<drac_boy>heh is it just me or the Model 55 looks like it carries its tiny engine under the nose instead of mid-chassis?
20:05<sim-al2>Yeah, I think it's up front
20:06<sim-al2>A lot of the gasoline-engined railcars are built that way, often single-ended too
20:06<sim-al2>I suppose that turning facilities weren't a problem
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20:07<drac_boy>well many of the late usa ones had the engine sitting around the interior if not small enough to sit under-chassis ... but of course the exhaust was usually somewhere over the cab roof end
20:08<drac_boy>on the other hand there were at least one or two railroads that ordered some (it was a small builder I don't recall name of now) vehicles that looked like stretched bus rebuilt with rail chassis instead .. even had a chain-connected manual transmission that needed a strong arm to operate too :-s
20:09<drac_boy>at least they lasted for a while as a cheap one-man (instead of steam locomotive with separately conductor-ed coach) passenger service
20:11<drac_boy>d&rgw at least knew how to built decent if not unusual looking passenger/freight combo railtrucks .. and their transmissions didn't need a big arm to operate heh
20:11<sim-al2>There were some early attempts at buses that could operate on both road and rail
20:11<drac_boy>heres one of the mid-age model http://blogs.denverpost.com/library/files/2012/06/Galloping-Goose-1.jpg
20:12<drac_boy>and yes it *was* a fullsize boxcar that they reused
20:12<drac_boy>where the road axle should had been was a chain drive to the rear rail bogie instead .. usually both rear axles were powered
20:14<drac_boy>not surprisingly for d&rgw some of these units had to carry a fullsize plow in a nod to the mountain-amount snows
20:17<sim-al2>Not to mention, literal buses: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rehvonwald/2234872137
20:18<drac_boy>sim-a12 heres something you only usually find on low-speed lines that doesn't want to fence everything off https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/A_ride_on_the_Galloping_Goose_1_1951.JPG
20:18<drac_boy>I'm sure the driver must had laid on the horn a bit there :)
20:19*drac_boy wants to caption this one "umm hi cow?" https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/A_ride_on_the_Galloping_Goose_2_1951.JPG
20:19<sim-al2>Converted schoolbus? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/AUTOCARRIL%2C_ECUADOR.jpg
20:20<sim-al2>Hmm, that track looks a bit... rough...
20:21<drac_boy>what do you expect from a narrow gauge line thats only made for 20-50kph anyway? :)
20:23<drac_boy>btw you reminded me and it took a while but I actually found a photo to start with..here http://www.flyhi.de/images/modellbau/inselbahn/inselbahn_postcard.jpg can you call that a "rail truck-bus" or what?? I imagine the first coach was generally mated permamently but it seem like the train sometimes could had another 1 or 2 coaches being hauled as well tho
20:24<drac_boy>and from the look of that hood's suggestive engine age I imagine it didn't run that fast so apparently 3 coaches wasn't a burden on its small output
20:25<sim-al2>Yeah, looks like a very light railway even now: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Wangerooge_Inselbahn_Zug.jpg
20:26<drac_boy>yep I was right, the first coach is stuck on for good unless in a shop https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5093/5543029250_2b384cff3d_z.jpg
20:26<sim-al2>Top speed: 20 km/h
20:26<drac_boy>and are these mirrors I see over the front wheel fenders?
20:27<sim-al2>Looks like it
20:27<sim-al2>http://www.inselbahn.de/images/basic/borgw_19163-0_51.jpg
20:29<sim-al2>Appears to be permantly joined with the carriage body: http://www.inselbahn.de/images/basic/borgw_19163-0_01.jpg
20:29<drac_boy>btw this reallllllly looks like someone hammered a random bus onto a uk rail flatcar and called it a day http://www.traintesting.com/images/R3_railbus.jpg
20:30<drac_boy>and um are these turn signal bezels turned into red panel instead?
20:30<sim-al2>The railway is still operated by DB today
20:31<sim-al2>Yeah, their were attempts to produce railbuses from bus parts, but the ones that appeared during the 60's and 70's were often mostly buses with rail underframes
20:31<sim-al2>The Pacers, Class 141-144, do share a lot of bus parts, but had to go with a slightly more conventional body
20:32<drac_boy>anyone want to take a cue from the nickname Bouncy Castle or even Pogo Stick?
20:32<drac_boy>heh .. well ^^
20:32<sim-al2>Unfortunatly, a combination of being 4 wheel and having poor suspension makes for a bad ride
20:32<drac_boy>yeah, that :)
20:33<drac_boy>actually you remind me of another thing with uk dmu/emu's ...
20:33<sim-al2>I'm sure people are alarmed that there's a proposal to rebuild them rather than replace...
20:34<drac_boy>there was one that went by the class 422 or 442 (I forgot now) .. and they had composition tires (instead of standard steel ones) plus the fact that there was a corresponding signal bellcode for "train running away on right line" ... turns out these poor units slipped a lot on leaves so they could be found overshooting
20:34<drac_boy>weird how the class # turned out to match perfectly with a bellcode for some strange reason
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20:36<sim-al2>Hmm, 442 is the high speed 80's units, 422 is the code for the 4-BIG, nothing about different wheels
20:38<drac_boy>hm might be another number off...oh well I don't recall where this old website was...
20:39<drac_boy>I do recall that one of the class 16* something was literally called a T*rdo and the explanation given was "well what did BR expect?"
20:39<drac_boy>I'm not sure I get it but I'm no english person tho :)
20:41<drac_boy>oh btw I found it again from a forum list .. I was thinking of 455 which seem to be short for Four Slide Slide
20:44<drac_boy>hm I had to go look and this is interesting http://www.signalbox.org/block/bells.shtml 455 is in the right direction but a 255 means its not where it should be going 0_o
20:50<drac_boy>either way don't think I got anything more to add about dmu/railbus now :)
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20:59<sim-al2>Heh, thought those were train conductor bell codes for a second, got very confused
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21:00<drac_boy>ah :)
21:05<drac_boy>btw not exactly dmu but heres something interesting: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/91115_at_Kings_Cross_4.jpg/1024px-91115_at_Kings_Cross_4.jpg
21:06<drac_boy>seem they did that a few times, even one photographer got an example of a standard 91 trainset being led by a third flat-facing 91 cab unit 0_0
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21:11<sim-al2>It seems a little strange that they expected those to pull freight trains at night and still make it back to their trainset in time for day services
21:13<drac_boy>no comment
21:14<sim-al2>I guess it's useful if the DVT blows up though
21:14<sim-al2>Nevermind that the orignal DVTs were actually HST power cars at introduction
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21:20<drac_boy>btw about running in certain directions...
21:21<drac_boy>I never understood why they always kept putting pairs of 20's together *with* the flat end leading .. whatever happened to extra protection by mashing them cab-to-cab instead of nose-to-nose?
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21:25<ello>ello
21:25<ello>?
21:25<ello>anyone there
21:26<ello>Anyone????????????????????????????
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21:27*drac_boy smacks the impatient ello just cause
21:27<drac_boy>:)
21:59<drac_boy>going sleep anyhow
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 06 00:00:30 2016