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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-12

---Logopened Sat Mar 12 00:00:38 2016
00:12<Flygon>"Can only be positioned near edges of map"
00:12*Flygon is playing on an ISLAND
00:14<Flygon>FML
00:14<Supercheese>refinery?
00:14<Flygon>There is ONE Refinery left on the map
00:14<Flygon>And while it will never die
00:15<Flygon>It's in a crap location
00:15<Supercheese>there should be a game setting for that
00:15<Supercheese>https://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Economy#Max_distance_from_edge_for_Oil_Refineries
00:16<Flygon>It's set to 48
00:16<Flygon>But the issue is
00:17<Flygon>There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 48 tiles between the Coast and the edge
00:17<Supercheese>I have no idea why there even is that limit
00:17<Supercheese>refineries should be wherever
00:17<Supercheese>map edge be damned
00:17<Flygon>It's suppose to create a challenge
00:17<Flygon>Time to Magic Bulldozer the last one, and see if that lets me relocate it
00:17<Flygon>Like an AoE Town Centre :U
00:18<Flygon>Nope
00:18*Flygon reloads from the .sav >_>
00:19<Flygon>Looks like I'll have to improv
00:19<Flygon>Playing the Iceland Map
00:19<Flygon>The Refinery is in the middle of NOWHERE
00:19<Flygon>Nowhere near ANYTHING
00:19<Flygon>So I'll prolly run 48-64 tile trains to get the most 'efficiency' (if this is actually efficient) from this >_>
00:20<Flygon>Basically, feed smaller loads into the really long load
00:20<Flygon>And then haul that long load to the refiery :U
00:22<Flygon>Refinery, rater
00:22<Flygon>Either way, I need to wait for the UP Big Boy to be invented
00:22<Flygon>Because if there's any use for that loco
00:23<Flygon>It's double heading them for 40+ tile loads >_>
00:23<Flygon>(yes, having JUST one stalls)
00:24<Flygon>The REAL problem is signalling
00:24<Flygon>And integration into the existing network
00:24<Flygon>Considering the things get so long, they will span 6 stations at a time (even if going through bypass tracks)... but building a separate exclusive network doesn't look cool >_>
00:27<Supercheese>Double-heading Big Boys, whew
00:27<Supercheese>must be one hell of a train
00:28<Supercheese>when in desperate need of high-throughput though, the end-all solution is ships
00:28<Supercheese>ships have effectively infinite capacity, just keep building more and more of them
00:28<Supercheese>they'll just noclip through each other
00:29<Flygon>Certainly
00:29<Flygon>But where's the cool factor in that? :3
00:29<Flygon>Hmm
00:29<Flygon>Building my first 'deposit' station's already hit problems
00:29<Flygon>20 tiles max length due to a mountain in the way
00:30<Flygon>I'd rather 24 to be easily 'divisable' into 48 <_>
00:32<Supercheese>If you want Cool Factor, transport it all by Zeppelin
00:32<Supercheese>build a dozen air stations
00:32<Flygon>...
00:32*Flygon headdesk xDxD
00:32<Flygon>Laughing pretty hard irl
00:32<Flygon>I like the idea, but I don't think it'd work in practice xP
00:32<Supercheese>Don't tempt me
00:33<Flygon>I might just go for a 12 tile station, that's fed into by 4-6 tile trains
00:33<Supercheese>Skytrains
00:33<Flygon>That then feeds into a 48 tile station
00:33<Flygon>In seriousness, Airship trains, I'm sure, could work IRL <_>
00:33<Flygon>They just wouldn't be compatible with Airports
00:38<Flygon>Now to create a 48 tile long station with a Gravity Assist Patented Launch Ramp :B
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00:54<Flygon>Real issue is
00:54<Flygon>I don't have Big Boys yet... or any real alts.
00:55<Flygon>But the Oil Wells will die if I don't use them
00:55<Flygon>Time to chain 6-8 steam locos together, and hope I hit at least 50km/h
00:56<Supercheese>you could use the Invisible Power Booster if you have that grf installed
00:56<Flygon>Yeeaaaah, true
00:56<Flygon>But it feels a bit like cheating
00:56<sim-al2>2cc trainset?
00:56<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=56672
00:56<Flygon>(says the guy using Magic Bulldozer)
00:56<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah
00:57<Flygon>1918
00:57<Flygon>Best option atm is the SBB C5/6
00:57<Supercheese>no Garratts or something?
00:57<Flygon>aka. the thing that goes slow as all hell, but WILL haul anything.... under 20 tiles long
00:57<sim-al2>Yeah, Big Boy arrives in 1941...
00:57<Flygon>Yeah
00:58<Flygon>I couldn't find a list for the current NML ver on Baanas
00:58<Flygon>Bananas*
00:58<sim-al2>Milwaukee EP2 arrives in 1919, has 4400hp
00:58<Flygon>When does the AT&SF one arrive?
00:58<Flygon>Yeah, but the Bipolar is Electric
00:58<sim-al2>ATSF 5000 is 1930
00:58<Flygon>Damn
00:58<Flygon>Looks like Switzerland better hold up
00:59<Flygon>(I WOULD use the Bipolar... if it wasn't going through raw wilderness. It looks too weird to have your longest line be electric in 1919)
00:59<sim-al2>Milwaukee Road was literally that though
00:59<Flygon>sim-al2: Got a link to the updated list?
00:59<Flygon>Haha, true
00:59<sim-al2>Rocky Mountain division
00:59<Flygon>I will prolly use the Bipolar for Passenger, tho
01:00<Supercheese>Flygon: Just save, use the date-cheat to skip ahead a few, and check which engines appear :P
01:00<sim-al2>Although the Coast Divsion wasn't exactly urban either
01:00<Flygon>Shorter distance, but still way long
01:00<Flygon>Supercheese: I... er... good point
01:01<sim-al2>If you want to wait until 1922 or so, the E-28 is pretty good, 2250hp, still electric though
01:01<Flygon>Yeah, I'm sticking with Steam/Diesel for this line until Electric feels more....
01:01<Flygon>Natural
01:01<Flygon>aka. when I've built up everything that IS along the route
01:01<sim-al2>1924 for the GWR 4900, 1750hp, steamer
01:02<sim-al2>Not much going on until 1930
01:02<Flygon>Yeah
01:02<Flygon>What's the kn rating on the GWR?
01:03<sim-al2>123
01:03<Flygon>Damn
01:03<Flygon>I think I'll stick with the SBB C5/6 xP
01:03<Flygon>Around 220kn per loco
01:03<sim-al2>Dat speed rating
01:03<Flygon>Yeah, but at least it can climb a hill
01:08<sim-al2>I have to wonder why there's gondolas and Self-discharging hoppers, since the latter weight a few tons more and don't seem to have a loading speed advantag
01:08*Flygon shrug
01:08<Flygon>btw, half the reason high kn is desired
01:08<Flygon>Is due to the strong possibility of stopping mid-line for other traffic mergig
01:08<Flygon>merging*
01:09<Flygon>Also the other reason Big Boys are wanted...
01:09<Flygon>That 128km/h is a godsend, with the right wagons
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03:26<andythenorth>o/
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03:29<V453000>yo
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03:36<andythenorth>what’s left for FIRS v2?
03:36<andythenorth>where is the trello?
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03:38<V453000>idk I am in full factorio mode atm
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03:42<Supercheese>aren't we all
03:43*andythenorth not so much
03:43<andythenorth>I played
03:43<andythenorth>the demo
03:44*andythenorth might try it again after V453000 fixes the terrain :P
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03:44<V453000>what wrong with the terrain?
03:44<andythenorth>one word
03:44<andythenorth>“locomotion"
03:45<V453000>idk I think our terrain is way nicer
03:45<V453000>like levels nicer
03:45<V453000>I never played locomotion but from screenshots it looks very shitty
03:46<V453000>mostly cause it is done the same way as openttd
03:46<V453000>1 sprite per hill angl
03:46<V453000>e
03:46<V453000>we have quite awesome randomizer which makes it look much more natural
03:46<V453000>the terrain will get some love, but not for 0.13
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04:34<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
04:34<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 16 hours, 18 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <frosch123> the build station gui will tell you
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04:55<andythenorth>V453000: do I need to fix these buildings? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7684/vineyard_1.png
04:55<andythenorth>before v2 release?
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05:18*andythenorth needs a better name for “FIRS” economy
05:18<andythenorth>“FIRS Extreme”?
05:18<andythenorth>“Extreme”?
05:18<andythenorth>“FIRS Max”?
05:20<V453000>I'd say they look ultra shit yes
05:21<V453000>FIRS WTF
05:22<andythenorth>it’s not really WTF though :P
05:22<andythenorth>FIRS ultra-mega-realism-overkill
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05:24<andythenorth>WTF would be if I started inventing things, instead of making a newgrf by reading wikipedia
05:29<Flygon>"Can't build station here.... station too far spread out"
05:29<Flygon>Oh goodie
05:29<Flygon>64 tiles IS enough
05:30<Flygon>#megastationproblems
05:47<andythenorth>action 14 eh?
05:51<Flygon>Action 14?
05:52*andythenorth is talking aloud
05:52<andythenorth>newgrf problem
05:56<V453000>wikifirs?
05:58<andythenorth>nice suggestion
05:58<Flygon>Oh man
05:59<Flygon>I read that as Wikifur for a second there
05:59<Flygon>And oh boy that's completely different to #OpenTTD
05:59*andythenorth called it ‘Extreme'
05:59<andythenorth>will see what players think of that :P
05:59*andythenorth is shocked and appalled that daylength patch makes things go slower
05:59<andythenorth>also
06:03<andythenorth>“Each economy provides a different combination of cargos and industries.{}{}For players who want simple gameplay, 'Basic' economies contain fewer industries and cargos than other FIRS economies.{}{}The FIRS website provides much more information about each economy.”
06:04<Flygon>I wonder if 1,521hp is enough to haul 1,156 tonnes. <_>
06:05<andythenorth>how much hill?
06:05<Flygon>Too much
06:06<andythenorth>moar
06:06<Flygon>srsly tho
06:06<Flygon>Only one segment of slope... but
06:06<Flygon>It's tw 6% inclines consecutively
06:06<Flygon>>_>
06:07*andythenorth wishes action 14 had separators, or a progressive disclosure
06:07<andythenorth>‘advanced settings’
06:07<andythenorth>the only important FIRS parameter is ‘economy'
06:07<andythenorth>but there are 9 others that are irrelevant to most players
06:09*Flygon adds a second NZR X-Class. Absolutely HATES double heading Steam Locos. x.x
06:09<Flygon>1.8 tiles wasted to a Loco
06:10<Flygon>Then again, I'm triple heading a 48 tile train...
06:11<andythenorth>@seen alberth
06:11<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 15 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <Alberth> fair enough :)
06:11<andythenorth>clearly everyone has gone shopping :P
06:11*andythenorth too
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06:13<V453000>1156t must be a stupidly long train for just one engine
06:14<Flygon>Separate train hauling 145 carriages...
06:14<Flygon>4,930 tonnes
06:14<Flygon>Hopefully 4,200hp is good- no, it isn't
06:14<Flygon>PERELEE :D
06:15<Flygon>1910s Steam Locos aren't strong nuff
06:15<V453000>doesn't sound very realistic to carry that weight in 1910
06:15<V453000>ultimate argument fired
06:15<Flygon>You have a point
06:16<Flygon>But I'm balancing rule-of-cool and realism here :DD
06:16<V453000>well if your engine can't climb a hill it isn't so cool :)
06:16<Flygon>Got the 12 tile train with two NZR X-Classes
06:17<Flygon>And the 48 tile one with 4 SBB C5/6's
06:18<Flygon>Annnd the NZR locos hit max speed while still exiting depot
06:19<Flygon>It's lke
06:19<Flygon>Seeing the snake out of Snake
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07:01<Flygon>Well
07:01<Flygon>They don't dip below 51km/h across the one incline plane
07:01<Flygon>With just two NZR X's
07:29<Flygon>Alright
07:29<Flygon>Mister 48 Tile is now running
07:29<Flygon>Now to see how it runs
07:30<Flygon>Having 4 Steam Locos coupled looks so silly....
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07:32<Flygon>Still, they do lose some speed uphill...
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07:34<frosch123>Hoi
07:35<Flygon>Eyyy
07:37<frosch123>Ah, Andy already Left :p
07:38<frosch123>So, i am like danmack now
07:39<@Alberth>:)
07:39<@Alberth>hoi
07:41<frosch123>V453000: btw, too much cc is bad
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08:32<frosch123>Night
08:32<@Alberth>bye
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09:28<argoneus>good morning train friends
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10:17<drac_boy>hi
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10:55<drac_boy>hows the stopped-chasing-codes alberth?
10:55<drac_boy>heh :)
10:55<@Alberth>quite forgotten :)
10:56<drac_boy>:p
11:00*drac_boy is doing ok other than for sorting through endless non-english links
11:01<@Alberth>:)
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11:06<drac_boy>might not interest you too much but still I found this earlier on, http://www.eisenbahn-bilder.com/db/details.php?image_id=71157&sessionid=df95342e67336472832e19eb141ae37f talk about finding two different krokodils present together :)
11:06<drac_boy>(and yes, one is 1000mm while other is 4'8"
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11:17<andythenorth>o/
11:19<drac_boy>hi there o :)
11:20<drac_boy>heh
11:21<@Alberth>o/
11:26<drac_boy>anyway going off for now, have fun
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11:30<andythenorth>Alberth: have you seen the new parameters in recent FIRS, for production?
11:30<andythenorth>o_O
11:30*andythenorth thinks they might need more / better explaining
11:31<@Alberth>I attempted to translate, and failed
11:31<andythenorth>I attempted to play the game, and failed :)
11:31<@Alberth>haha :)
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11:32<andythenorth>I am not sure how to improve them
11:32<andythenorth>and frosch is not here to discuss :)
11:33<@Alberth>he was, but you were not :p
11:34<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7686/FIRS_production_params.png
11:34<@Alberth>http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1457786276#1457786276
11:35<@Alberth>:o looks very customizable-ish :)
11:35<andythenorth>oic :P
11:35<andythenorth>I missed him
11:36<@Alberth>hmm, devzone still doesn't get how to pack a newgrf :p
11:40<andythenorth>so yes, the production behaviour is very customisable
11:40<andythenorth>but that requires quite a detailed understanding of how it works
11:48<@Alberth>this is only about primary industries>
11:48<@Alberth>s/>/?/
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11:52<andythenorth>farms, mines, ports, forests
11:52<andythenorth>yes
11:53<@Alberth>ah, ok
11:53<@Alberth>seems to make sense
11:54<unleashy>hello, I have a problem with the android version of OpenTTD (version 1.5.3.47): basically, relative mouse movement doesn't work as in the cursor goes under my finger and follows it instead of staying wherever it is. volume button binding also doesn't work (i can bind them but they don't do anything in the actual game)
11:57<@Alberth>unleashy: not sure there is anyone that can help you here
11:57<@Alberth>you may want to post http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=49867&hilit=android&start=280
11:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: what is the percentage now?
11:58<unleashy>ok
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12:03<andythenorth>Alberth: prior to the patch, the boosts were 100% and 300% (giving 2x and 4x total production, if that makes sense)
12:03<andythenorth>and the ‘gung ho’ 4x delivery requirement is ~4x the delivery requirement for 2x
12:04<@Alberth>yes production increase makes sense
12:04<@Alberth>but number of crates to deliver doesn't
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12:05<@Alberth>I'd talk in absolute production levels instead of bonus percentages
12:05<@Alberth>200% production
12:06<@Alberth>otherwise you are always off by 100%, which doesn't add anything, and is only confusing
12:06<andythenorth>yeah, I think so
12:06<andythenorth>that confused me
12:07<@Alberth>you can set a lower limit on the parameter :)
12:07<@Alberth>although a gung ho < enhanced could be fun :p
12:07<andythenorth>:P
12:07<andythenorth>penalty
12:08<andythenorth>precise delivery requirement
12:09<@Alberth>but how do you derive number of crates?
12:10<andythenorth>it’s a constant
12:10<andythenorth>per class of industry (farm, mine, port)
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12:13<@Alberth>right, any reason not to use absolute number of crates?
12:15<@Alberth>assuming you don't do fractions of crates :p
12:16<andythenorth>it varies by industry :|
12:16<andythenorth>otherwise I would
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12:18<@Alberth>ah, makes sense
12:18<@Alberth>how many industries are we talking about?
12:18<@Alberth>alternatively, mention the number in the description?
12:20<@Alberth>ie less than 5? 10?
12:20<@Alberth>beyond that it too much anyway :)
12:20<@Alberth>+is
12:23<@Alberth>"Adjust" throws me off onto the wrong track in the option name
12:24<@Alberth>Also, the option says "cargo requirement", while the explanation says "amount of supplies required", which is not clear to be the same thing to me
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12:29<@Alberth>andythenorth: Required supplies deliveries for 'enhanced level' (% of base amount) ?
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12:48<andythenorth>Alberth: I’ll try that shortly, than,s
12:48<andythenorth>thanks *
12:48*andythenorth cooking
12:48<@Alberth>me too :)
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14:36*andythenorth -> bed
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16:18<Nakilon>hi guys
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16:19<Nakilon>I wanna create a bot that would play via LAN
16:19<Nakilon>I'm looking into https://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol and see PACKET_CLIENT_GAME_INFO
16:20<Nakilon>but grep shows nothing about that constant in the 1.5.3 source code that I've just checked out of svn
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16:20<peter1138>you should use the AI system i guess
16:21<Nakilon>I don't want to
16:22<Nakilon>I want to write in another programming language than squirrel
16:23<Nakilon>oh http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1156879068#1156879068
16:24<peter1138>well you have to build it into openttd at least
16:26<Nakilon>is anywhere network protocol descrbed better than ion that wiki page?
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16:40<Eddi|zuHause>in the code.
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>but really, if you just want a different language, you should patch the script interface, not abuse the network protocol
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17:22<Nakilon>then I'll try to reverse
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17:38<peter1138>you'll figure it out :)
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20:10<drac_boy>hi
20:11<drac_boy>any of you indeed think that stub turnouts were generally only found on 4ft/smaller gauge railroads that had low operational speeds? I'm kinda thinking so but just wonder what others thought too
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20:31<Flygon>Stub turnouts?
20:32<Flygon>(okay, so, 48 tiles of Oil = 2,860 Crates of Goods)
20:34<drac_boy>http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Thorn%20Creek%20and%20Western/200811184552_PCRR_3-way%20stub-cropped.jpg heres a three-way one for you :)
20:34<drac_boy>and heh flygon, you trying to get massive transport? :)
20:34<Flygon>Three-way?
20:34<Flygon>Needs more gauges
20:35<Flygon>Needs to be an or- er- collaorative party
20:35<Flygon>drac_boy: Island map with just one Oil Refinery in the middle of nowhere
20:35<Flygon>These trains are the most efficient I got
20:36<drac_boy>flygon well I think dual gauge usually were only 2 because the frogs were complex enough to make in the first place
20:36<drac_boy>although if you got a lot of time with your model train I don't see why you couldn't had tried make one that hopefully might work :)
20:37<Flygon>South Australia had triple gauge points :D
20:38<drac_boy>although I know theres one spot in russia where their (5+ft)track crosses a standard gauge tram line and a 'children railroad' narrow gauge ... three different gauges of diamonds
20:39<Flygon>Ouc
20:39<Flygon>Ouch
20:42<drac_boy>this is a different one from the one I mentioned but it still shows how three gauges are living next to each others. the steam locomotive is on 750mm and crossing broad gauge .. while that tram on other side of road is on 4'8" gauge
20:42<drac_boy>http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/pics09/russia09166.jpg
20:49<drac_boy>flygon just asking but what you think of this locomotive? http://www.x-rail.ch/MOB/Lokomotiven/Elektr.Lok/Bilder/DZe-6-6-2002_G004.jpg (and optionally maybe the train too)
20:50<Flygon>I am a bit surprised they never regauged to more standardized gauges
20:50<Flygon>ie. 1067mm and 1524mm for Russia
20:50<Flygon>IT'S A BLUEBIRD
20:50<Flygon>https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3470/3816924761_91011e4118_b.jpg
20:52<Flygon>http://vicsig.net/passenger/photos/19980800-811-801-spencer-st-ig.jpg V/Line imported a set for use as an Interurban DMU. Transmission seized on the first revenue run. With the Press and State Premier (equiv. to Prime Minister) onboard.
20:52<Flygon>It handled the start-stop pattern on the mountainous terrain very badly. It was designed to cruise at high speed on long distance lines >_>
20:52<Flygon>(I forgot if it was Diesel-Mechancial or Diesel-Hydralic)
20:55<drac_boy>heh well the locomotive is basically a Dze 6/6, and the only non-krokodil articulated locomotive as far as I know (aside to steam in form of 0-4-4-0T but it didn't go far)
20:56<drac_boy>and btw I believe they used 750mm as it was rather supposed to be a low cost 'schooling' thing rather than as a everyday commercial railway to put it in words
20:57*Flygon nod
20:57<Flygon>Still, I'd be a bit worried about the increase in costs
20:57<drac_boy>heh that sounds like australia didn't exactly have good luck with these specific dmu's
20:57<Flygon>On the other hand, this makes for very cheap to import heratage stock for some Victorian railways :P
20:57<drac_boy>considering they have many old railmotors and emu's still running around
20:58<drac_boy>I still like the red slamdoor ones mind you
20:58<Flygon>(we built a lot of 762mm lines... 750mm is within gauge variance tolerance at the speeds the lines ran)
20:58<Flygon>Ehh
20:58<Flygon>The Bluebirds ran well for what they were designed for
20:58<Flygon>Barren plains
20:58<Flygon>Victora is made up of mountains, moutains, and more mountains
20:59<Flygon>You wouldn't think V/Line had a hand in the climax of Thunderdome xP
20:59<Flygon>(our North-West IS Desert)
20:59<drac_boy>http://www.victorianrailways.net/photogallery/gall03/03-03.jpg :)
20:59<Flygon>This's also half the reason the VLos are so overpowered >_>
20:59<Flygon>That's a Sliding Door, not a Slam Door :3
21:00<Flygon>And I still think they should get the highest unload/reload rating possible for the 2CC set, given they're almost as much door as they are wall >_>
21:00<drac_boy>oh well...one reason I like them is that from a side view .. if you blocked the pantograph from view it would almost look like a standard coach instead ... thats how generic they look like :)
21:00<Flygon>Note that the doors slide BEHIND the Windows. The windows get blocked by the doors when they're ope!
21:00<Flygon>Well, they were built the 1880s
21:01<Flygon>in the*
21:01<Flygon>They were refitted for EMU operation
21:01<Flygon>And ran as both carriages and EMUs combined for over 100 years.
21:02<drac_boy>the funny thing is there was actually this one britian oo scale layout I saw at a show once .. I asked about two coaches left on the line ... umm guess what happened? yep soon these two suddenly moved away on their own ... I had not realized they were actually power units :P
21:02<drac_boy>compared to more modern dmu/emu units being too obvious even from a far distance
21:03<Flygon>:D
21:03<Flygon>Well, think of it this way
21:03<Flygon>It dooooes make economical sense to refit existig units
21:04<Flygon>Just replace the bogies, add pantographs, add control stand... done!!
21:05<Flygon>Keeeeeeping in mind
21:05<Flygon>They ALREADY had cabs, with windows, for the guards to use
21:05<Flygon>iirc, sometimes they'd run the trains with the locomotive pushing on the rear, and the guard reading the signals
21:05<drac_boy>these are a similar usa example I like ... remove the pantograph and suddenly it looks just like another coach :p http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/9/4/1/2941.1076862780.jpg
21:06<Flygon>I don't know if the guard had much control beyond using the bells and brakes, though
21:06<drac_boy>mind you the funny thing is that later on GG1's sometimes did haul these (with the non-GG1 pantographs tied down)
21:06*Flygon nod
21:08<drac_boy>the slight sad thing is the timing tho .. just when budd was trying to sell a newer version (lightweight chassis with weight-saving aluminum shell for example) very few of them were ever purchased in the first place due to the spiral the company soon went into
21:08<Flygon>Damn
21:08<drac_boy>at least the amfleet coaches were more or less an unpowered copy of the design tho
21:09<Flygon>This's half the reason VR built a lot of stuff inhouse until the 50s-60s...
21:09<drac_boy>these would-be fleet of emu had inside bearing as well (yep no truck frame in view)
21:09<Flygon>VR's unlikely to collapse suddenly xP
21:09<Flygon>Hum o.o
21:11<drac_boy>btw these are what could-had-been for prr .. save for no inside bearings (as noted by the truck frames) http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C5233%5C2887.jpg
21:12<Flygon>Huh, well... I do gotta say
21:12<Flygon>They look American as hell
21:12<drac_boy>only 6 built and all were designed as single-unit motors (so yeah 2 cabs in every each of them)
21:12<drac_boy>assuming wiki got the quality right
21:14<drac_boy>oh and flygon heres a weird history tidbit on the budd metroliner initially built for PC (then later amtrak) .. they were supposed to have lightweight trucks but PC got a bit worried and demanded older more reliable heavyweight trucks instead ... guess what happened? they caused more harsh ride at higher speeds but the designers only could migrate a bit of it without having to send the whole thing back to drawing board :-s
21:16<drac_boy>at least even with the semi-lasthour truck switch these trainsets still did 100+mph in service
21:20<Flygon>Didn't the fact they were so overweight cause huge structural problems?
21:21<drac_boy>maybe, I don't recall the magazine article talking about that tho
21:21*Flygon nod
21:22<drac_boy>I do know for sure that till amtrak cured the issue with the belly-mounted electronics (surprise surprise) some winters sometimes saw the metroliner trainset not moving by itself but instead being hauled by a GG1 (which a number of had already received winterize kits for their air intake covers)
21:24<drac_boy>heres one with the pantographs still up (probably separate electric heating transformer was still functional) https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f8/64/88/f864883195bbbafb7bf1b43bceb679f8.jpg
21:24<drac_boy>even with the snow "smoke" you still can tell its a metroliner due to the tapered sides ;)
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21:26<Flygon>O_o
21:26<drac_boy>aha flygon I found how amtrak eventually fixed their snow problem: they stuffed more of the electronics to the roof instead of in the belly, and heres an example of this http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/0/9/1209.1130331600.jpg
21:27<Flygon>Well, that'd work @_@
21:27<Flygon>Ahh, USA, having massive gauge :D
21:27<Flygon>Australia? Limited loading gauge. DD Trains all over Sydney :D
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21:27<Flygon>Some of the world's most cramped underfloor electronics
21:27<Flygon>To the point where Japanese utterly baffled :3
21:28<drac_boy>actually 'massive gauge' was not always so .. theres still some lines where amtrak could not even run their bilevel wagons at all (that was why a few old pre-amtrak diner coaches kept existing for so long due to being assigned together with amtrak-funded coaches on these routes)
21:29<drac_boy>oh and to a more common degree if you're wondering why a doublestack train is *all* single containers ... check your map you might see why :)
21:29<Flygon>Hum?
21:30<Flygon>(we do have lots of Double Stack here... bar certain lines with 1800s era tunnels)
21:31<drac_boy>well its a bit funny sight sometimes .. seeing a very long train of nothing but just ttx doublestack wagons .. and yet guess what? its loaded to only single container height from the front to the back end :)
21:31<Flygon>O_o
21:32<drac_boy>oh and flygon if you want talk about pushing gauge to the limit .. try THIS http://www.railarchive.net/rlsteam/images/nyc3137.jpg
21:33<Flygon>That's not pushed to the limit :3
21:33<Flygon>It's not cramped enough
21:33<drac_boy>nyc made it as big as their railroad would even take it .. heck the bell couldn't sit on top anymore so umm guess where they had to put it? right behind the pilot ... think that caused a lot of snow-out problems tho
21:33<Flygon>https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5175/5497441683_b364b5cdc0_b.jpg THIS is pushing the gauge as far as possible :3
21:34<Flygon>It's not as biiiig, but it's cramped af :D
21:34<Flygon>Even the Chimeny is noticably even stumpier
21:35<Flygon>But, again, I still think lots of US railroads had waaay large loading gauges :D
21:35<drac_boy>your problem is your boiler isn't exactly round at the top :)
21:35<Flygon>Well, we had to fit it into the loading gauge somehow :P
21:36<Flygon>http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/harry/h220late.jpg The dome on the top actually becomes very thin on the top
21:37<sim-al2>Too large????? How do you plan to do this elsewhere? http://trn.trains.com/~/media/images/railroad-news/news-wire/2013/02/boeing-middleton.jpg
21:37<drac_boy>btw a noticeable number of tunnels in east usa actually had to be relaid to single track (instead of prior double) as to be able to clear the newer GE Dash units ... sometimes even the wagons as well (but even then some could accept the new locomotives but were still too shallow for a doublestack)
21:38<sim-al2>Most of the time they cut the tunnel floor though, or notched the ceiling
21:38<drac_boy>a few of these tunnels that were still doubletrack had noticeable notches in the portal ends ... adding a few inches more of clearance
21:38<sim-al2>If it can't clear a Dash 8 it's not going to clear high-cube boxcars
21:39<Flygon>drac_boy: Same thing happened here with older tunnels as we got larger gauges happening
21:39<Flygon>sim-al2: People do tend to forget the wings are designed to deattach :P
21:40<sim-al2>Although there is a GE cab variation with slight notching, supposedly because a coal loader on a AT&SF/BNSF line in Arizona was a bit too small to clear the regular version
21:40<sim-al2>Well, in this case the wings haven't been put on yet :p
21:41<drac_boy>btw flygon there is also a few rare instances of where the tunnel was built through a small hill instead of an actual mountain and so 50+ years later the then-current railroad decides its worth the cost to basically "remove" the offending hill in first place
21:41<drac_boy>eg http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/sites/model-railroad-hobbyist.com/files/users/dfandrews/Cajon%205.JPG
21:41<drac_boy>and yes these are old tunnel portals that are about to have no purpose for existing anymore soon
21:41<sim-al2>For whatever reason, it's been cheaper to build the fuselages in the Mid-West or even east coast, and then ship them all the way to Seattle
21:41<Flygon>Sounds like some of my OTTD games
21:42<sim-al2>Yeah, BNSF has been doing that a lot, especially in the case of older tunnels
21:42<Flygon>sim-al2: Same reason we send food to China for processing then reimport it >_>
21:43<sim-al2>The best part is, when they arrive at Everett, a pair of GP38's shove the cars up hill to the plant
21:44<Flygon>Let's take a moment to appreciate that, when we get the Bering Strait link
21:44<Flygon>They'll prolly outsource fusilages to China >_>
21:44<Flygon>Or Russia. Whatever's cheaper and less likely to crash
21:45<sim-al2>No way that would be allowed, Boeing gets all kinds of concessions just to stay in Seattle
21:45<Flygon>Ooh
21:45<Flygon>That explais a lot
21:45<Flygon>explains*
21:46<sim-al2>Besides, shipping all the way across the ocean would be too expensive, and Chinese wages aren't rock bottom anymore
21:46<Flygon>Yeah
21:46<Flygon>China's gonna rise...
21:46<Flygon>I wonder what'll be the next manufacturing base
21:46<sim-al2>China has different minimum wages by region, the area around Shianghai is around the same level as Mexico
21:46<Flygon>I'm placing bets on Africa... if they can get their collective proverbial sorted
21:47<sim-al2>The northern interior is still quite low, but shipping from their is even more expensive, because you have to travel so far by land
21:47<drac_boy>flygon btw if you want an instance of rail gauge gone crazy, take ten pills and go look at england :)
21:48<sim-al2>I suppose, but I see Europe and south/southeast Asia as a more important destination for African industry than the US
21:48<drac_boy>as I recall one example from mind, a small group of emu had stiffened suspensions as to be able to use a rather tight vintage-steam-era tunnel .. and just once none were around so someone tried borrow the same emu from another railway instead and umm guess what happened? it made some major dints both to the tunnel lining and itself :->
21:49<drac_boy>talk about suspension plays!
21:49<sim-al2>Sounds like England, where there was one railway line that constrained all the southern region diesel stock
21:50<sim-al2>Including requiring a batch of Class 33s there were a few inches narrower, but ended costing the manufacturer a lot in retooling to build
21:51<sim-al2>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I64WvM8yxc
21:51<drac_boy>oh and btw even during the steam era there were an obvious reason some classes were banned on certain routes .. I know a magazine had one photo of an express 4-6-0 with some noticeable platform-strike damage to its piston coverings ... turns out that the story was that an engine swap was supposed to happen earlier on but it wasn't available for some reason so the crew decided to just continue on with their existing locomotive
21:52<Flygon>Doesn't the UK have a 372mm commercial line or something?
21:52<drac_boy>after a shed inspection the locomotive was sent back to where it should had been at on a special routing with 40kph restriction :-)
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21:53<sim-al2>372mm is hideously small, there are 1372mm railways, aka Soctch gauge, 4 foot 6 inches
21:53<sim-al2>So-called minimum gauge is 381 mm, or 15 in
21:53<drac_boy>372mm sounds like some hand-pushed or 10hp tractor powered 10kph freight cart railway tbh
21:54<sim-al2>Yeah, that's not really equipment that can go very far or fast
21:54<drac_boy>2ft/600mm was really probably the smallest independent transport gauge you could use tbh
21:55<Flygon>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romney,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway
21:55<drac_boy>and not surprisingly even 60cm (aka 600mm) used to be a big thing around france area (neverminding non-france areas during WWII as well)
21:56<sim-al2>Yeah, 600mm seems to be the smallest to have "real" equipment, and even then there's some problems: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/SAR_Class_91-000_91-006.JPG
21:56<Flygon>381mm
21:57<drac_boy>heres one of these non-wartime 60cm line http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/stories/railways/ashover/01_ashovermixed.jpg
21:57<drac_boy>and yeah that coach is a bit big .. talk about needing to keep a 6ft headspace inside among other things :)
21:58<sim-al2>It seems that many industrial railways disappeared as trucks improved, those that remain being tourist railways, specialized, or converted to larger gauge
21:58<Flygon>I'd be worrying about the passengers tipping the carriage over
21:59<sim-al2>Usually the center of gravity is kept low by the frame, but these railways certianly had low speed limits
21:59<drac_boy>well sim-a12 the real problem was that politics never really understood things .. they were basically asking to trade one relatively quiet train with low-cost property maintenance for basically loud black-smoking trucks that didn't really pay for their roads (at the time)
22:00<sim-al2>That Class 91 has a maximum speed of 50km/h for example
22:00<drac_boy>thats what some vine farm newseditors basically quoted the event as
22:01<drac_boy>heh hmm yeah these class 91 seem oversized for their gauge just as much as these almost seem too big http://users.eastlink.ca/~othen/Newfoundland/CN946%20St%20John's%20station%2019SE76small.jpg
22:01<sim-al2>Perception is the key thing though, decent roads being regarded as new and liberating, and old slow railways as things of the past
22:01<drac_boy>some people called these "mutant geeps" because they did really resemble a full gauge geep chopped down to the smaller gauge
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22:03<sim-al2>Narrow gauges didn't help too much either, as cargo would need to be transferred, unless of course it was something like a railway internal to a steel mill or logging operation
22:03<drac_boy>actually many of the 60cm lines were self-serving ... transloading was rather rare
22:03<drac_boy>eg the vines would had end up right at the brewery or so .. and even timer lines went all the way to the sawmill as was at the time
22:03<drac_boy>timer=timber*
22:04<drac_boy>quarry did sometimes have transloading but that was only as it was easier to send the truck or train to a single stockpile point whereas the 60cm lines spread out like a spider web to haul the initial raw supplies
22:06<sim-al2>Those Class 91-000s worked on a network of narrow gauge that servered a quarry among other things, but since that quarry is now closed the utility of the narrow gauge lines is decreasing, and most of the locomotives have been sold
22:06<drac_boy>oh and sim-a12 some of the logging railroads might had shared same gauge but they were treated as isolated non-connect lines as to avoid the "mainline" regulations/etc for example
22:06<Flygon>I know the 762mm tourist lines here (namely, Puffing Billy) actually manage to haul some Freight
22:07<Flygon>But it's mostly token (eg. some extra money on the side)
22:07<drac_boy>you should had seen these crazy tracks they sometimes built (even a 4-4-0 would had derailed on them!)
22:07<Flygon>And I'm 90% sure just local goods
22:08<sim-al2>True about the regulations, but there's ways to overcome that, i.e. transit systems that remove rails at their recieving sidings except when needed
22:10<Flygon>(Noting that Puffing Billy itself's kind of lucky it didn't go 762mm>1600mm... in fact, part of the line WAS! VR hated running NG lines. They only did so because Parliamet forced them to.)
22:10<sim-al2>There were some narrow gauge railways in Colorado that were very important freight haulers in the local area, but of course that traffic declined over time, and died off as roads improved
22:11<sim-al2>Yeah, I have to wonder how much money was really saved with narrow gauge railways when tunnelling wasn't needed
22:11<drac_boy>sim-a12 heres something that I don't think would had been allowed as a standard railroad! heh http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/OPERATIONS/ERCLOps/3b._Shay_In_River_11.24.61_Steve_Patterson_CORR_Darker.jpg
22:11<Flygon>(Parliament wanted EVERY town possible connected by Railway... VR did not want to build through dense rocky mountain range using 1600mm... cue the Government basically going "Fine, here's some $$$, build it as cheap as possible". VR still kinda all :| )
22:11<drac_boy>and that was for 10+ years just like THAT
22:12<sim-al2>Yeah, the biggest problem with that is that the trackbed WILL washout with time, and make a big mess
22:12<drac_boy>if you look you can see the actual tracks submerged under
22:13<drac_boy>sim-a12 .. actually the tracks were nailed to fresh-from-nearby timbers .. and they only had to periodically move the mud out of the way
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22:13<sim-al2>Also, I'm sure the running gear doesn't like that either
22:13<drac_boy>even the boiler water is taken directly from creeks from time to time
22:13<Flygon>If you pre-fabbed Concrete and drilled it into the ground, with the rails bolted in
22:13<Flygon>I don't think it'd wash out
22:13<Flygon>But it's too expensive of a solution
22:14<drac_boy>flygon yeah this is a $5 maintenance railroad :P
22:14<drac_boy>they only finally got a diesel locomotive....and kept it restrained to simply doing sawmill tracks shunting
22:15<sim-al2>I've read about the log thing actually, the earliest railways were built that way, but the normal trackbed was superior for the way most railways operated
22:15<sim-al2>Modern slab track designs are a bit like that, but include vibration-dampening elements
22:16<drac_boy>btw if you want worser: just drop the track right onto ground with zero ballast ... and just hope your suspensions are all extra-soft :)
22:16<sim-al2>Heh, I think log railways tended to be that, as the track was temporary anyway
22:16<sim-al2>At least, compared to any other railway
22:17<drac_boy>well some lowly weekly-freight-only lines actually had little or no ballast .. cue a GP7 crawling at notch 1 ... bobbling like weird :)
22:17<drac_boy>of course by now FRA would had classed such lines as exempted and no traffic allowed
22:17<sim-al2>Quite a few branch lines were run into the ground that way, just stopped doing mainteance and hoping that the ICC would allow abandonment
22:18<sim-al2>Hmm, that's actually an Unclassified track rating, freight only with a maximum of 10mph
22:18<drac_boy>actually you remind me..some of the open quarry railways in britian actually basically just drop the track wherever it was required and used nothing but 0-4-0T's to shunt these tippers/flatcars around
22:19<sim-al2>I don't think the FRA actually blocks traffic unless it's putting people in danger, but unclassified track is usually in extremely poor condition
22:19<drac_boy>in one instance it was actually a dumping ground so the tippers ran to end of line and dump there..then when it got too full they simply moved the track a few hundred meters west (or east whatever) from current position .. then continue tipping more there
22:20<drac_boy>btw FRA does have a class 1 (or was it 10? I forgot how the sliding scale worked) condition where the line is just ok for 15-20kph freight but absolutely no passenger service of any kind allowed
22:21<sim-al2>Exceptd track is freight only, 10mph, Class 1 is 10mph freight, 15mph passenger
22:22*Flygon rubs forehead...
22:22<Flygon>FRA regulations are too schitzophrenic for me to trust
22:22<Flygon>Such as The Acela Express locomotives being required to be weighed down with so much concrete that it's actually a safety hazard
22:22<drac_boy>flygon, I hate north america politics anyway (and yes . politic=law period)
22:22<sim-al2>There's geometry requirements that have to be met, nothing more than that
22:22<Flygon>As a safety feature
22:22<Flygon>Nevermind the complete logic failure
22:23<drac_boy>flygon heh yeah the acela was a dumb mess .. not to mention not even being able to run push-pull so cue two overpowered locomotives on a short train
22:23<sim-al2>There's no concrete that I know of, it's just that Tier 2 collision standards are rather high
22:23<drac_boy>I think it was only recently that the acela train had more coaches inserted
22:24<sim-al2>Having two locomotives made acceleration better, allowing the train to actually take advantage of its higher speed rating
22:24<drac_boy>sim-a12 not really
22:24<sim-al2>Also, I think more coaches were intended in the first place
22:24<drac_boy>one single aclea had more than enough power even in winter .. and beside .. 4 coaches weights almost nothing (comically a single FT could had hauled it if it wasn't for the newer track speed limits)
22:24<Flygon>drac_boy: In my rather frank opinion
22:25<sim-al2>Lots of the line between Philadelphia and New York is very curvy, and widening the curves will be expensive
22:25<Flygon>The Acela route would be better served by, say, VLos, or something equivilant
22:25<Flygon>They're crashproof enough >_>
22:25<Flygon>ie. blowing past LX @ 200km/h
22:25<sim-al2>So better acceleration means actually getting up to speed on the straight parts
22:25<Flygon>Of course, you'd want to reengineer them for EMU operation
22:26<sim-al2>Also, the Tier 2 regulations at the time didn't really allow for cab cars (I think this will change, if it hasn't already)
22:26<Flygon>But even the DMU versions probably accelerate better... and I'm sure modern Hydralic Transmission can do 220km/h...
22:26<drac_boy>oh and as a dumb footnote: many of the japan emus are only like 40-70% powered axles yet many of these are used in every-seconds-counts tight highspeed services eh?
22:26<sim-al2>Umm, New York Pennsylvania Station
22:26<sim-al2>No diesels allowed
22:27<sim-al2>(without dual-mode capability)
22:27<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah, but I was making an observation xP
22:27<sim-al2>Also, the whole line from Boston to DC is electrified
22:27<Flygon>That an Australian DMU would probably handle the Acela service better than the current Acela stock does atm, ignoring all FRA regulaton
22:28<Flygon>In reality, yes, you'd want EMUs with similar crashproofing standards
22:28<sim-al2>Shinkansens have more powered-axles though
22:28<drac_boy>btw sorry about this but getting a bit late here and I'm not sure about the clocks tomorrow either ... have fun anyway
22:28<sim-al2>Ok, night
22:28<Flygon>Night drac
22:28<Flygon>sim-al2: To be clear, I mean locomotive-less, no locomotive :3
22:29<Flygon>But FRA regulation mandates locomotives
22:29<sim-al2>The N700s returned to having powered axles on all but the end cars for bettter performance and braking regeneration
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22:29*Flygon nod
22:30<sim-al2>Flygon, those units better have tilt on them too, or they won't
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22:30<Flygon>The VLos aren't designed for Tilt
22:30<sim-al2>Also, the speed limits are going up to 165mph
22:30<Flygon>Which, imho, is a complete design flaw
22:30<Flygon>Ahh, I thought they topped at 240km/h (140mph iirc)
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22:31<Flygon>VLo bodies and suspension can handle 220-230km/h well enough... but the Transmission and Motors didn't >_>
22:32<sim-al2>Unfortunatly the average speed is much lower, but the new section through Rhode Island has long streches of 150mph (currently)
22:32<Flygon>The only reason I'd suggest a modification of the VLocity design, is due to the Shinkansen EMUs not being designed to crash into a truck
22:32<Flygon>If there was no level crossings
22:32<Flygon>I'd just punch the "Import a Shinkansen N700 button"
22:32<sim-al2>I think making a crash-rated Shinkansen would be easier
22:33<Flygon>Easier than reengineering the DMU design for EMU?
22:33<sim-al2>It's not like the modern Japanese trains aren't already being designed very carefully for passenger protection
22:33<Flygon>Yeah, but they're designed to NOT crash
22:33<Flygon>Not TO crash gracefully
22:34<sim-al2>I don't see the advantage, and the JR East Shinkansens already operate in cold snowy conditions
22:35<Flygon>Ooooh yeah, I forgot the USA gets far colder
22:35<Flygon>The VLos only sometimes operate in Snow
22:36<Flygon>http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/28/svTRAIN_wideweb__470x299,0.jpg And any xMU hitting a truck carrying rocks is going to have a bad day, regardless
22:36<sim-al2>Bombardier is also not very popular with Amtrak, mainly because the HHP-8 locomotives were always trouble, and the Acela had all kinds of wheel and tilt problems early on
22:36<Flygon>(most of the passengers came out alright... the 4 drivers didn't. Long story)
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22:36<Flygon>Ooh
22:36<Flygon>Yeah, I see the issue =/
22:37<Flygon>Bombardier's been nothing but fantastic for us
22:37<Flygon>I guess different regional divisions have different standards
22:37<sim-al2>Yeah, the collision ratings aren't really based on passenger forces, but more like buff strength and corner-post strength
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22:38<sim-al2>Unfortunatly, the buff strength rating is much higher than elsewhere, and scares manufacturers off because they can't reuse the body from their existing designs
22:38<Flygon>With FRA standards?
22:39<sim-al2>Yeah, I think the justification is that the car not be trashed if moved on the head-end of a freight train
22:39<Flygon>Yeah, existing VLo designs (a branch of the design is used for commuter EMUs in Adelaide) aren't exactly designed to crash in the way the FRA wants
22:39<sim-al2>There's been all kinds of official proposal for new standards, but it's taking a long time to happen
22:40<Flygon>Whenever a VLo hits a car, it tends to result in the car being dragged by the DMU going from 160km/h to 0 >_>
22:40<Flygon>The rock truck incident actually happened @ 120-130km/h
22:41<sim-al2>Unfortunatly we have lots of railroad crossings still, so trucks have to be factored in safety concerns
22:42<Flygon>Yeah. We do too.
22:42<Flygon>Ideally.... we don't hit a truck. But if we do... well, as we found out, at least the passengers survived okay
22:42<Flygon>http://www.rtbuvicloco.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/LocoLines-Edition-62.pdf Page 3...
22:43<Flygon>The train-on-train crashes seem to actually be safer >_>
22:43<Flygon>(VLo had a head-on with a Comeng due to speeding... and, probably, the Comeg's lights being broken. That last bit's still flamebait in the local rail community)
22:44<Flygon>"For anyone who hasn’t driven a V/Locity, they
22:44<Flygon>roll very well—probably better than any
22:44<Flygon>rolling stock in Victoria—and can easily creep
22:44<Flygon>up over the speed limit if you’re not watching
22:44<Flygon>closely. "
22:44<Flygon>Oh... that didn't copypasta well. Sorry.
22:45<Flygon>But... yeah. I'm actually more worried about a train-on-truck incident locally than train-on-train
22:45<Flygon>...unless both're powering toward eachother headon, the train being hit will give way >_>
22:48<sim-al2>Some of the recent crossing accidents have been rather ugly, and some concerns about new rolling stock design
22:48*Flygon nod x:
22:48<Flygon>There is only one real true solution, of course
22:51<sim-al2>Expensive to get rid of level crossings in most places, as bridges or tunnels don't necessairly fit well
22:52<sim-al2>Elevating the rail line would work, but that's beyond the funding level of most commuter agencies
22:53<Flygon>Yeaah, elevating is the most sensible solution
22:53<Flygon>With proper maintainence
22:53<Flygon>The USA isn't good at the maintainence bit :(
22:54<sim-al2>Noise would be a problem too, as the locomotives will be above people on the ground
22:55<sim-al2>Also NIMBY-ism would be a barrier
23:00<Flygon>...
23:00<Flygon>The noise is MORE easily mitigated with viaducts than at-ground
23:00<Flygon>Noise barriers + Projecting all the noise UPWARDS, rather than horizontally
23:01<sim-al2>Taking suburbs for example, people really hate structures being built
23:02<sim-al2>Yeah, but without good track design, the concrete structures will radiate more noise outward. Also, consider that most commuter lines have at least a small amount of freight traffic too
23:02<Flygon>Mm...
23:02<Flygon>Ehh..
23:02<Flygon>Scuse my language
23:02<Flygon>But fuck the NIMBYs
23:03<sim-al2>Yeah, but they have money, and there's widespread disapproval of government projects at any level right now
23:06<sim-al2>The projects that are getting done are the usual continuous improvements, i.e. track, station, etc
23:07<sim-al2>A lot of systems here are also replacing older equipment, especially with promise of new lighter passenger coaches, as well as more powerful locomotives
23:11*Flygon nod
23:11<Flygon>Of course, my critique with that, specifically
23:11<Flygon>Is the total focus on the loco+carriage arrangement
23:11<Flygon>V/Line's been trying to obsolete it hard, due to it's operational restrictios
23:11<Flygon>restrictions*
23:12<sim-al2>Yeah, but often the commuter systems have to be flexible since they run a variety of lines, like Metra for example has these 8+ car rush-hour trains
23:13<sim-al2>GO Transit, the Toronto commuter rail system, has done a lot of research into alternatives
23:14*Flygon nod
23:14<Flygon>What happens here is
23:14<Flygon>Is we just tape VLos together
23:14<Flygon>We're moving to 3 car sets, so the likely end result for, say, Geelong crush load, is 3+3+3
23:14<Flygon>I'm expecting 12 car VLos in future, with a 3+3+3+3 arrangement
23:14<Flygon>Which will also likely create a hole in the Ozone layer above Victoria
23:15<sim-al2>They put out a study a year or so ago, that DMUs would be cost-effective only up to regular use as 4-6 car formations, compared to using diesel locomotives or going electric
23:15<Flygon>9000 horsepower for a single DMU can't be wrong
23:15<Flygon>...it needs 13 cars, to go over 9000 >_>
23:16<sim-al2>Lol, DMUs would be rather useful if it weren't for the lack of infrastruture in many cities
23:16<sim-al2>Amtrak already has a lot invested in their fleet of cars, and DMUs wouldn't do much for them
23:17<Flygon>Lack of infrastructure? O_o
23:17<sim-al2>There are a few DMU systems now
23:17<Flygon>Half the reason we use the VLos so hard, is because they don't need much infrastructure :D
23:17<Flygon>Just load fuel in, and they'll go anywhere, no turnarounds or anything :D
23:18<sim-al2>I mean, cities in places like Ohio were they desperatly need transit systems but there's not real possibility of just building some stations and buying a few DMUs
23:19<Flygon>Well...
23:19<sim-al2>There's not really the long regional lines here anymore, it's either existing commuter systems, or new start
23:19<Flygon>I wouldn't recommend DMUs for urban transit
23:19<Flygon>They cost way too much to run
23:20<Flygon>I bet you, VLo would rather run Electric versions of VLos if they could
23:20<Flygon>But the Government doesn't want to stump up the cost for 200km/h capable 1500vDC, or adding 25kvAC to our existing electrical system, then making dual-voltage DMUs
23:21<Flygon>The VLos are like Klingons
23:21<sim-al2>In the sense of just starting something up, they would be nice. For example, there's a system being built in Sonoma and Marin counties in California (north of San Francisco)
23:21<Flygon>They have a lot of redundant parts that render them nigh unkillable
23:21<Flygon>But if something DOES break, it's a nightmare to do surgery on them
23:21<Flygon>Because there's so many redundancy inside them...
23:21<Flygon>And they're so mechanically comple
23:21<sim-al2>They will be using this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/SMART_Rail_Rolling_Stock_%28Nippon_Sharyo_DMU%29.jpg
23:22<Flygon>Ooh
23:22<Flygon>I think I've seen those run about Africa
23:22<Flygon>They're designed for 200km/h, iirc?
23:22<sim-al2>2 and 3 car trains, not particuarly low headways
23:22<sim-al2>No, these are different, I think you've seen the Gautrain stuff in SA
23:22*Flygon nod
23:22<Flygon>Lemme check
23:23<sim-al2>These are Nippon Sharyo, Japanese manufacturer that's a big deal in the US now
23:23<Flygon>Ahh, no
23:23<Flygon>Not the Gautrain
23:23<Flygon>The ones I'm thinking of are SG
23:23*Flygon nod
23:23<sim-al2>These are good for 90mph, about 145 km/h
23:24<Flygon>We don't have a huge much in the way of Japanese rollingstock here... there's a few historical reasons for this
23:24<Flygon>tl;dr: The Japanese are stubburn, we're picky about how our stuff is built
23:24<sim-al2>They have the same engines as the Vlocity btw, so I'm sure they could be run faster
23:24<Flygon>They asked for our help with building DDEMUs in the 80s... then got into arguments with us about how to build DDEMUs. Nobody came out of it happy.
23:25*Flygon nod*
23:25<sim-al2>These are really meant for commuter/regional ops though, they don't have the facilties for more than a few hours runs
23:25<Flygon>I understand it's a popular engine
23:25<Flygon>The only DMUs I've seen that are really used for long distance are NSW's Xplorers
23:25<Flygon>Such as the 11ish hour Broken Hill runs
23:26<sim-al2>Yeah, seems to be all over the newer DMUs, worldwide
23:26<Flygon>...which are, incidentally, are the direct descendants of VLocities :D
23:26<sim-al2>There's the WA Transwa DMUs too
23:26<Flygon>Refit the transmission and engine, add a software update, and it's a VLocity for all intents and purposes :3
23:26<Flygon>The TransWA DMUs are just VLocities with a different name :3
23:27<Flygon>They came out about a year after, based on the same design
23:27<sim-al2>In Hokkiado, the northern most Japanese islands there's long distance runs with tilting DMUs
23:27<Flygon>Ooh, yeah
23:27<Flygon>The ones that look like worms?
23:27<Flygon>Out of TRON?
23:27<sim-al2>lol
23:27<Flygon>As in
23:27<Flygon>If TRON had Worms
23:27<sim-al2>Technically, the UK has some too, as the Voyagers often run across both electrified and non-electrified lines
23:27<Flygon>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JR_Hokkaido_Kiha_283_series_002.JPG These
23:28<Flygon>Ahh, the Voyagers...
23:28<Flygon>I do like the Voyagers :#
23:28<Flygon>:3*
23:28<sim-al2>Yeah, those. Unfortunatly, there was an accident where a driveshaft broke and caused a fire in a tunnel, that burned out the whole train
23:28<Flygon>Fuck. Wow. x.x
23:29<sim-al2>*JR Hokkiado
23:30<sim-al2>No one got hurt, but the tilting was disabled and speed reduced from 130 km/h to 120 km/h. I'm not sure if the speeds and tilting will return, but the newest generation of equipment was canceled and will be more like the Kiha 261, which has air suspension tilting
23:31<Flygon>Damn. :(
23:33<sim-al2>The company was heavily criticized. It seems that in an attempt to get profitibility (despite being privatized, they are being funded by the Hokkiado government), they got rid of older experienced workers in favor of new-hires, and so the maintenace department was less experienced
23:34<Flygon>Of course
23:34<Flygon>The ONLY
23:34<Flygon>ONLYYY reason JK Hokkaido is being bailed out by the Gov't
23:34<Flygon>Is because, for all intents and purposes
23:34<Flygon>They're bankrupt.
23:35<Flygon>My friends and I suspect they'll get absorbed by JR East
23:35<sim-al2>Some of the equipment is getting a bit older, the first Kiha 281's being from 1994, and they are heavily used
23:35<Flygon>1994 doesn't see that old... but
23:35<Flygon>Japan has shorter lifecycles than Gaijin equipment >_>
23:36<sim-al2>I don't know, if anything they will spin-off as much of the local lines as possible, keeping the Sapporo commuter traffic and the new Shinkansen
23:36<sim-al2>Yeah, in this case it seems justified, as the conditions are harsh
23:36<Flygon>Mm
23:37<Flygon>The Shinkansen was suppose to save JR Hokkaido
23:37<Flygon>But it's too little, too late, methinks
23:37<sim-al2>I don't think 281s will be retired anytime soon, as long as the connection to the Shinkansen at Hakodate is needed
23:38<sim-al2>Which could be like 2030
23:38<Flygon>Dang
23:40<sim-al2>Hmm, even weirder, the Shinkansen station is 18km away, so a shuttle train will be used (I think the diesel services will be extended there too, as the whole point of the new Shinkansen section right now is to make it a 2 seat ride to Tokyo, instead of 3 as current)
23:41<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Tokyosapporotrainchart.png
23:44<sim-al2>Currently the system is like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Map_of_Hokkaido_Shinkansen.png On the 26th, the section through the tunnel to Hakodate will open
23:45<sim-al2>But, the section to Sapporo will take much longer, basically because of mountains making the job difficult
23:47<sim-al2>The sleeper services will also be obsolete, at least in their current form, after the 26th
23:48*Flygon nod
23:48*Flygon scratches head
23:48<Flygon>It's a shame we lack such ambition here
23:49<Flygon>We can't even build a simple HSR line across one of the world's busiest air corridores
23:49<sim-al2>This has been proposed since like the 70's, but financial difficulties put it off
23:51<sim-al2>It took boring the world's longest undersea tunnel too, 53.9 km in total, 23.3 km undersea, but it was served with narrow gauge trains until now
23:51<sim-al2>Now it is dual-gauge, since freight traffic is pretty big between Hokkiado and the rest of Japan
23:52*Flygon nod
23:53<Flygon>(I wouldn't really call it finacial difficulties, btw, so much as our Government lacks ambition)
23:53<sim-al2>The initial speed for the Shinkansen will only be 140km/h, since freight trains will be run around the clock
23:53<sim-al2>*through the tunnel
23:53<Flygon>(We've had the capability to come up to building it since the 1950s... but we were too Roads focused)
23:54<Flygon>(up to then, 160km/h services with NSWGR was regular, and VR had similar capabilities)
23:54<Flygon>(it's really not hard for me to imagine either railway developing for 200-220km/h speeds by the 60s... if anyone had the foresight to)
23:54<sim-al2>I think the privatized JRs, especially East and West, are still servicing debit from the JNR Shinkansen projects...
23:55<Flygon>They are
23:55<Flygon>I mean, they were privatized BECAUSE of the Shinkansen debt
23:55<sim-al2>Yeah, lots of interesting things happened in the 80's as JNR played around with saving energy and money
23:56<sim-al2>Including making basically all commuter/suburban trains stainless steel
23:56<Flygon>O_o
23:56<Flygon>What did they use before that?
23:57<sim-al2>Lighter weight, when combined with improvments to old resistor-based traction control, like regenerative braking, helped a lot
23:57<sim-al2>Just regular steel
23:58<sim-al2>The old trains only used dynamic braking, so the modern ones have half the energy consumption of the old ones
23:58*Flygon nod
23:58<Flygon>I assumed they went fully stainless by the 70s
23:58<sim-al2>Rather nice for the underground trains too, as it saves on air-conditioning and stuff
23:59<sim-al2>Tokyu built a lot of stainless steel cars, since they became a licensor of Budd in the 60's
23:59<Flygon>...then again, VR somehow managed to have Stainless Steel trains rust just 7-10 years after they were built (the 'Hitachi' sets. Noting that Hitachi only supplied the builders, the bodies were built by someone else
23:59<Flygon>VR were pissssssed >_>
23:59*Flygon nod
---Logclosed Sun Mar 13 00:00:40 2016