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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-13

---Logopened Sun Mar 13 00:00:40 2016
00:00<sim-al2>Also TRTA and other went for it, but there were also a number of aluminum cars
00:04<sim-al2>Budd style trucks too: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/T%C5%8Dky%C5%AB_7000_series_EMU_011.JPG
00:04<Flygon>Oh, that's why my 48 tile long trains are unprofitable
00:04<Flygon>They're taking over a year to reach their destination @ 66km/h
00:05<sim-al2>Damn
00:05*Flygon nod
00:05<sim-al2>What year?
00:05<Flygon>1927
00:05<Flygon>They're Quadruple headed, to boot
00:05<Flygon>The wagons only support 71km/h
00:06<sim-al2>Ouch
00:07<Flygon>If they were triple headed, they'd stall going up some of the hills =/
00:07<Flygon>I needthe AT&SF locos already...
00:08<Flygon>And I thought my 12 tile long Coal trains hauled by a single Consolidation Loco were insane
00:08<Flygon>But they only go downhill when full
00:09<Flygon>They max at 71km/h due to downhill assist... but lose speed when they lose it
00:09<Flygon>But by the time they hit their 'true' max speed, they're already braking at the station
00:09<Flygon>Relaced them with SNCF 140C's
00:10<Flygon>They don't fare much better, but it'll stop the game telling me my Consolidations are almost 60 years old
00:13<Flygon>Very tempted to rename these 48 tile trains "Landships"
00:14<Flygon>I'd use GWR 4900's if the Wagons had better speed limits
00:24<sim-al2>Hmm, how much do the 48 tile trains make on delivery?
00:24<Flygon>320k
00:24<Flygon>They'd make more if they weren't so slow
00:24<Flygon>But they ARE profitable
00:25<Flygon>Whel
00:25<Flygon>p
00:25<Flygon>Just shut down my first line
00:25<sim-al2>Not too bad, how far do they travel?
00:25<Flygon>Was run only by railbuses
00:25<Flygon>Now replacing it with Buses and Trucks (Railbuses were 60km/h, RVs now can do 40km/h)
00:25<Flygon>uuuh
00:25<sim-al2>Heh, I almost never shut-down lines, although I sometimes do complete makeovers
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00:26<Flygon>Approximately 800 tiles, sim-al2
00:26<Flygon>Want the .sav?
00:27<sim-al2>sure
00:27<sim-al2>Also, dammmmnnnnn
00:27<Flygon>I need to shut the line down to make way for a new line xP
00:28<Flygon>Where the eff does OTTD save it's stuff again...
00:28<Flygon>I remember when times were simple
00:28<Flygon>When games saved everything into /Program Data/
00:29<sim-al2>Documents\OpenTTD
00:29<Flygon>Yeah, just found it
00:29<Flygon>I never ever ever use My Documents xP
00:29<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/Flurrail42.sav
00:30<Flygon>It's, frankly
00:30<Flygon>Not as realisitc as I'd like it
00:30<Flygon>But operational costraints
00:30<sim-al2>What map? I like
00:30<Flygon>Iceland
00:31<Flygon>It's on BaNaNas
00:31<Flygon>Also, you can see where I removed the line xP
00:32<sim-al2>Yeah, I though you meant something longer, I can see why you removed that
00:32<Flygon>There's still one at Reykholt
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00:33<sim-al2>Oh wow, that's cool
00:34<Flygon>But... yeah
00:34<Flygon>A lot of people hate me for going for asesthetics over realism xP
00:34<sim-al2>Hmm, looks like you should get the WCG-1 soon
00:34<Flygon>WCG-1?
00:34<sim-al2>Oh right, electric
00:35<Flygon>I need to electricy the Garour lie
00:35<sim-al2>I would add a siding to the railbus thing, moving the coal transfer train over to the side of the mine
00:35<Flygon>line*
00:35<Flygon>And, frankly, redesign it
00:35<Flygon>It didn't become as useful as I thought it would be
00:40<Flygon>Still wish Level Crossings supported more than Single Track x.x
00:41<sim-al2>That belt of cities around Reykjavik looks really nice
00:42<Flygon>Mm
00:42<Flygon>I do want to let it sprawn further
00:42<Flygon>sprawl*
00:42<Flygon>But I'd want to 'add' additional towns in first
00:42<Flygon>That exist IRL
00:42<Flygon>But that's for North
00:42<Flygon>For South, only thing stopping me is procrastination
00:46<Flygon>Also, listening to the DMG Smurfs music while playing OTTD is ridiculously calming
00:49<Flygon>I'd release a 'remastered' version of the Iceland map with the towns missing added
00:49<Flygon>But I don't think the author'd like that
00:49<Flygon>I'd like to make a Victoria map
00:49<Flygon>Of Australia state
00:49<Flygon>But...
00:50<Flygon>There's no way to simultainiously support Desert, Arid Grass, Lush Grass, Arctic Grass, and Snow simultainiously
00:50<Flygon>Victoria's both a Desert climate, and Sub-Arctic Climate >_>
00:50<Flygon>...the Stork theme
00:51<Flygon>The guy was clearly paid too much, he did a bang-up job
00:51<sim-al2>Yeah, you can play around in the scenario editor to get some decent sub-tropical going, but I don't know about snow and different grass
00:51<Flygon>Yeah
00:51<Flygon>You can see the issue =/
00:52<Flygon>And there's no way to LOCALIZE snow
00:52<Flygon>If, say
00:52<Flygon>A 8192*8192 map was possible
00:52<Flygon>And I was feeling exeptionally unlazy
00:52<Flygon>It'd be impossible to capture the VIC/NSW/TAS Alpine Ranges without making it snow on Uluru, and Grassy in the Simpson
00:53<Flygon>But going by Desert climate, suddenly it's Dried up in Tasmania
00:53<Flygon>When I'd more compare the Tasmanian climate to... a slightly less oppressive Norway
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01:15<Flygon>Heheh...
01:15<Flygon>One of Iceland's Highways is route 420
01:15<Flygon>Heheheheheheheh
01:15<Flygon>Still waiting for Route 621
01:16<sim-al2>I think Colorado stop replacing the Milepost 420 after it got stolen a few times
01:17<sim-al2>Looks like with 3rd gen tankers, your train will be "only" 33 tiles to have the same capacity
01:18<Flygon>Didn't they replace it with 419.99?
01:18<Flygon>sim-al2: I'll keep the same length
01:18<Flygon>But use less trains
01:18<sim-al2>Yeah, some fraction
01:19<sim-al2>I actually think you need more trains, because some oil is decaying because the station rating is low
01:20<Flygon>btw, with the scenario, note I can't type accents on my keyboard (US Settings)
01:20<Flygon>And a lot of 'area' names are just best guesses
01:22<Flygon>I'd love more trains
01:22<Flygon>But I lack the $$$
01:22<Flygon>It's around $1.5m per train
01:26<Flygon>I do say
01:26<Flygon>If I started in 1977 instead of 1877
01:26<Flygon>There'd be WAAAAAY more Road Vehicles
01:26<Flygon>Due to Iceland's... Icelandicness
01:32<Flygon>sim-al2: There's also other more pragmatic reasons
01:33<Flygon>Such as only wanting to manually rebuild a few small trains when I get access to the AT&SF
01:33<Flygon>Then the Big Boy
01:33<Flygon>The Big Boy likely sticking around until the 80s
01:33<sim-al2>Good point
01:33<Flygon>Which's an issue, because they expire before then
01:33<Flygon>But no other loco quite bes good enough
01:35<sim-al2>DDA40X?
01:36<Flygon>Forgot the 2CC set has that
01:36<Flygon>Still, it does require rejiggig the entire consist again
01:36<Flygon>The key issue being the lack of TE
01:37<sim-al2>It's still pretty high, around 500-600 kN
01:37*Flygon nod
01:37<Flygon>Running off memory here, I'll note
01:41<Flygon>I think Airships are bugged O_o
01:41<Flygon>They fly reeaaaallly low
01:43<Flygon>I just wish I had better Seaships
01:43<Flygon>And the ability to turn Mail off x.x
01:45<Flygon>Annd Vittuuuuu
01:45<Flygon>I gotta rebuild Kisubla Junction
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03:51<Flygon>Njarovik is a pain to rearrange... @_@
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03:54<sim-al2>Even in the save you gave me it's pretty tight
03:55<Flygon>It's been made even tighter
03:55<Flygon>Prepping for another two Pax. platforms
03:56<Flygon>Which means Njarovik town itself is... uhm
03:57<Flygon>Gonna be stuffed
03:57<Flygon>UNLESS
03:57<Flygon>I completely redo the freight bypass...
03:58<Flygon>No... there's not enough room
03:58<Flygon>It's one of those things where flexi-viaducts would be very very helpful
04:02<Flygon>But rearranging everything AGAIN will be a nightmare
04:02<Flygon>To separate 'express' passenger and freight
04:02<Flygon>I'm only prepping for the 'stopper' passenger line. For 15 years time.
04:02<Flygon>for in*
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04:05<Flygon>Oooooh, shit yeah. Got access to the AT&SF now
04:07<Flygon>Replacing 4x SSB C 5/6's (1,643hp, 215kN) w/1x AT&SF 5000 (5,779hp, 481kN) will save soooooooooooooooooooo much money
04:08<Flygon>Oh my god
04:08<Flygon>These 3rd Gen tankers
04:09<Flygon>This's 1.5m/ltrs to 4.3m/ltrs per train
04:10<Flygon>Still gonna replace with Big Boys, mind
04:10<Flygon>But for now
04:10<Flygon>It's the best
04:10<Flygon>Esp. with me struggling to print $$$
04:10<Flygon>The trains are cheaper, to boot
04:11<Flygon>It's no wonder these locos got invented IRL
04:12<Flygon>The real issue is
04:12<Flygon>The trains are so long
04:12<Flygon>They're a nightmare to get in and out of depots
04:15<Flygon>Alright
04:15<Flygon>First fully loaded about to take off
04:15<Flygon>Taking of with Gravity assist
04:16<Flygon>Aw yis
04:16<Flygon>80km/h
04:16<Flygon>But with downhill assist
04:17<Flygon>Oh der...
04:17<Flygon>It loses speed climing Hills
04:17<Flygon>But still faster than the C 5/6's
04:17<@Alberth>live comment on game progress :)
04:18<andythenorth>lo Alberth
04:18<Flygon>Bottomed out at 66km/h, thank christ @_@
04:18<@Alberth>lo andy
04:18<Flygon>Oh
04:18<Flygon>Read the wrong window
04:18<Flygon>It bottomed at 69km/h >_>
04:19<Flygon>62km/h...
04:20<@Alberth>nah, < 20 km/h is slow :)
04:20<Flygon>Oh, certainly. I'm just even more impatient for Big Boys now :D
04:22<Flygon>What's gonna really suck, is replacing the double headed trains with single headed trains >_>
04:22<Flygon>Kinda wishing OTTD had a replace consist with new consist feature... buuut... that's already been requested :D
04:24<andythenorth>many times
04:24<andythenorth>it’s one of the few worthwhile missing features imho
04:25<Flygon>I aint gonna jab too hard about it
04:25<Flygon>I've upset the coders too many times
04:25<Flygon>I'm grateful for what we got
04:27<andythenorth>Alberth: you’re slightly familiar with newgrf parameter window?
04:27<@Alberth>"slightly"? :) perhaps :)
04:27<sim-al2>There's a Template Replace patch, you can find it in JGR's patchpack
04:28<@Alberth>depends on the precise topic
04:28<andythenorth>wondering about parameter groups
04:28<@Alberth>:O
04:28<andythenorth>progressive disclosure on a ‘+’ ‘-‘ type thing, like settings
04:29<andythenorth>I think it’s lipstick on a pig really
04:29<andythenorth>newgrf _shouldn’t_ have so many parameters
04:29<@Alberth>do these exist eg in action 14?
04:29<V453000>pigpigpig
04:29<@Alberth>hi hi V
04:30<@Alberth>do you know your nuts have a gap in early multi-engine setup?
04:30<V453000>hy
04:30<V453000>?
04:31<@Alberth>I'll take that as a "no", let me make a picture
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04:33<andythenorth>I think it would be quite easy to add group in action 14
04:33<andythenorth>just add a group keyword, anything declaring that string goes in the group
04:34<andythenorth>order within the group is derived from order of items when declared, as currently
04:34<@Alberth>V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/sideview.png http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/downhill.png
04:34<andythenorth>“group = advanced_settings” or so on
04:35<andythenorth>and also a declaration for a name string for the group
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04:35<V453000>Alberth: consistency and 8/8 vehicles with small sprites :P
04:35<@Alberth>I don't remember having consistent gaps :D
04:36<@Alberth>but fair enough :)
04:36<V453000>was there since version 0.0.1
04:37<andythenorth>hmm
04:39*andythenorth scratching head
04:40<V453000>Alberth: today I would probably solve it by articulating a short wagon for 8/8
04:41<V453000>might still do it one day
04:41<@Alberth>sounds like magic :)
04:41<@Alberth>was just letting you know I found it, nothing else
04:42<V453000>wat magic? :D that it is visually shorter than logically?
04:44<@Alberth>no, "articulating a short wagon for 8/8" sounds like magic :)
04:44<@Alberth>no doubt it's trivial if you know it
04:46<V453000>eh it would be 4/8 engine + 4/8 wagon = 8/8 total
04:46<V453000>all NUTS vehicles are 16/8 in total so it would just be 4/8 engine + 3x 4/8 wagons
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04:54<andythenorth>newgrf parameters should have a console option :P
04:55<andythenorth>console is the antidote to all over-loaded GUIs
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05:04<Wolf01>o/
05:06*Wolf01 returned to everyday life :(
05:09<@Alberth>the plane wouldn't leave without you?
05:09<@Alberth>fwiw, we're glad to have you back
05:11<@Alberth>andy: yep, people are too fond of 1000 words images where 1 word would suffice :)
05:15<Wolf01>oh, the return plane was awful and I would have been really happy if it left without me
05:15<Wolf01>I still have some back pain
05:18*Wolf01 is logging into the bank account to check if the Kobe beef payment has been processed successfully
05:18<@Alberth>:(
05:18<Wolf01>500€ one dinner for 4 people :P
05:19*Wolf01 would do it again
05:20<V453000>gg
05:20<Wolf01>mmh, I think the web will be off limits for the entire day... steam, battle.net and windows 10 all updating
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05:22<Wolf01>quak
05:23<frosch123>Hoi
05:23<V453000>too many factorio saves on steam cloud? :P
05:23<frosch123>Already?
05:26<andythenorth>lo frosch123
05:27<Wolf01>oh, I got kidnapped by the security at Schiphol, when the police station prepared my passport, they made a mistake with the plastification and it feels strange at touch...
05:27<frosch123>andythenorth: we decidsd against Setting Trees för Ai/gs/newgrf before
05:28<Wolf01>the funny part is "we made a mistake, but you shouldn't have any problem"
05:28<andythenorth>no newgrf should ever need a settings tree....
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05:36<V453000>xd
05:36<V453000>how many parameters andythenorth
05:37<frosch123>andythenorth: originally i also wanted to display the current production level as bonus
05:37<frosch123>But it looked weird, soi changed it to an absolute percentage
05:38<andythenorth>V453000: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7689/FIRS_2_params.png
05:38<V453000>'s fine
05:38<andythenorth>station rating should be deleted
05:38<andythenorth>prevent industry opening, I don’t even know why I have that there
05:38<V453000>yeah the station rating improving is just a cheat for no reason
05:39<V453000>except andy likes to play with RVs :P
05:39<@Alberth>disabling breakdowns is also a cheat :p
05:39<andythenorth>it was to enable using one long train per industry
05:39<andythenorth>‘realistic'
05:39<andythenorth>now I just always have a train waiting, 5 tiles :P
05:39*andythenorth has smoked coop crack
05:40<andythenorth>station ratings should be a separate grf tbh
05:41<andythenorth>so +1 to deleting that?
05:49<frosch123>Separate grf sounds fine
05:51*andythenorth might not _make_ the separate grf :P
05:51<andythenorth>more of a theoretical solution
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06:02<andythenorth>“Prevent industries opening during gameplay"
06:02<andythenorth>that is not trivial for another newgrf to do
06:02<andythenorth>do I have to keep that?
06:06<frosch123>I guess so
06:07<frosch123>Don't remove stuff for removal's sake?
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06:11<andythenorth>overwhelming number of parameters currently :)
06:13<andythenorth>hah
06:13<andythenorth>custom station ratings _can’t_ be a separate grf
06:13<@Alberth>ever looked at a basecost mod grf? :p
06:13<andythenorth>it’s cargo-specific, and FIRS provides the cargos
06:13<andythenorth>yes, basecost grf is terrifying
06:15<V453000>it isn't that overwhelming when compared to the shitload of content firs has
06:15<V453000>don't worry about too many parameters
06:15<V453000>being able to see the behavior of industries is very good to have
06:15<frosch123>What is cargo specific about it?
06:15<andythenorth>it’s a callback from the cargo
06:15<andythenorth>there is nothing specific to the cargos though
06:15<frosch123>Isn't it the same for all cargos?
06:15<andythenorth>yup
06:16<andythenorth>another grf could override that for every cargo?
06:16<andythenorth>brute force?
06:16<frosch123>So, not firs specific
06:16<frosch123>Ithinkso
06:16<andythenorth>yay
06:16<andythenorth>win
06:17<andythenorth>V453000: so what values are you going to set? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7689/FIRS_2_params.png
06:17<andythenorth>and why?
06:17<V453000>would probably give more gung ho bonus
06:17<V453000>but really, I would have to play and see
06:18<V453000>if the defaults are working, then many parameters don't hurt at all
06:19*andythenorth gives up starting quite often because it takes so long to set all the parameters, game settings, map options
06:19<andythenorth>gamescript, town names, drive side, lang
06:19<andythenorth>currency
06:21<V453000>yes
06:21<V453000>because the newgrfs you are using have not great defaults?
06:22<andythenorth>nah
06:22<@Alberth>too many settings
06:23<andythenorth>mostly I made them, mostly they don’t have params
06:23<andythenorth>or few
06:23<andythenorth>if I want different behaviour, I recompile them
06:23<andythenorth>frosch123: if mines and farms had same supply requirement, we could express it in actual cargo value?
06:24<andythenorth>ports can just be 2x that as a special case, or whatever, player doesn’t really need to worry about ports
06:25<andythenorth>parameter description could mention that ports need more
06:25<@Alberth>andy: do you want more "this industry can practically throw its production to the receiving industry" reports?
06:25<andythenorth>yes
06:25<frosch123>Yes, ports are the only weird thing
06:25<andythenorth>the lower threshhold for farms could be historical
06:26<andythenorth>now the clustering is wider, and the base production is higher
06:26<frosch123>I guess displaying the farm amount is good
06:26<andythenorth>I’ll unify farm and mine requirements
06:26<frosch123>Don't talk about ports :p
06:27<andythenorth>just a thing you have to learn?
06:33<frosch123>I never bothered how much i delivered to a port
06:33<andythenorth>so base requirements are 14 for farms and 21 for ports
06:33<andythenorth>oops
06:33<andythenorth>21 for mines
06:33<frosch123>Primary Industries are the important ones
06:33<andythenorth>and gung ho is just 4x the base
06:34<andythenorth>I am wondering about making them multiples of 8 or so
06:34<frosch123>Weren't ports like 10x requirements?
06:34<andythenorth>yes
06:34<andythenorth>or so
06:34<andythenorth>160 base
06:35<andythenorth>24 / 48 / 96 / 192 / 384 / 768 and so on
06:35<andythenorth>does that work?
06:35<frosch123>I don't get your gungho comment then
06:35<andythenorth>yeah, sorry
06:35<andythenorth>I will paste
06:35<frosch123>Just make it a integer setting
06:35<frosch123>Easier for everyone
06:36<frosch123>A combobox is quite complex to code
06:36<frosch123>Minimum 1, maximum 10k
06:36<andythenorth>so absolute values?
06:37<frosch123>Yes
06:37<andythenorth>rather than a multiplier (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x) etc?
06:37<andythenorth>I find the arrows weird to use on the integer inputs
06:37<frosch123>Wasn't that the point?
06:37<andythenorth>click, click, click, click, incrementing one at a time
06:38<frosch123>Extend the description with a hint that you can doubleclick the row?
06:39<frosch123>Anyway, those who want to change stuff in the first place also want to control all details?
06:39<frosch123>Who would use presets?
06:42*andythenorth :P
06:42*andythenorth often thinks that those who most want to control stuff should also learn to code :P
06:43<andythenorth>so this is the first change I’ll make https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdgfk4i4j
06:45<@Alberth>a lot simpler to wrap your head around
06:45<frosch123>In my game i lowered enhanced, and increased gungho reqs
06:46<frosch123>I would also recomment that for defaults
06:47<andythenorth>what did you lower enhanced to?
06:48<@Alberth>"1" :p
06:48<frosch123>Like 5 or so
06:49<frosch123>Basically 'any'
06:49<@Alberth>hmm, micro-managing distributors go wild :)
06:49<andythenorth>you had vehicles that small? o_O
06:49<frosch123>While gungho required a lot of focus
06:49<andythenorth>sounds like the older ‘deliver any’ behaviour that seemed to be hated :D
06:50<frosch123>It was some heqs railmotor with cap 4 or so
06:50<@Alberth>andy: those who hated it can adjust it now :)
06:50<andythenorth>ah heqs :)
06:50*andythenorth hasn’t used heqs for…some time
06:51<andythenorth>weird grf
06:51<@Alberth>:)
06:51<@Alberth>bbl
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06:51*andythenorth wonders if 16 and 128 are good thresholds
06:52<frosch123>Also sounds fine
06:53<andythenorth>8x the required cargo for 2x the production :)
06:53<andythenorth>but I might change the default production also
06:53<andythenorth>150% for enhanced
06:53<andythenorth>dunno what for gung ho
06:58*andythenorth wonders what the upper limits are for requirements express in crates
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07:08<frosch123>Night
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07:10*andythenorth wonders what timezone frosch is on
07:47<Wolf01>night?
07:49<Wolf01>mmh, I would like multi storey stations
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, given his usual nighttime of 23:00 (+0100), it would mean he's now either +14 or -10 :p
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>plus a bit of variation in night time, could be california or hawaii
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm, it's probably not california, too late there
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>could also be new zealand
08:18<Wolf01>or japan, maybe I even met him
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>japan is probably too early
08:19<andythenorth>does FIRS _need_ to show how much extra production you get for develiering delivering supplies?
08:19<andythenorth>delivering *
08:20<andythenorth>“…to increase production 360%…” is ugly
08:20<Wolf01>its 21:20
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but he probably doesn't go to bed at 20:00 :p
08:20<Wolf01>I did :P
08:21<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Australia IIRC
08:22<andythenorth>it’s 22:22 in brisvegas
08:22<andythenorth>maybe he’s gone to see Pikka
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>that could be also, but my brain cannot handle daylight shifts in the southern hemisphere :p
08:23<andythenorth>I have a phone app for it :P
08:23*andythenorth calls australia about 4 times a week
08:24<andythenorth>hmm
08:24<andythenorth>does FIRS industry window need to show *any* information at all about production level / supplies requirement?
08:24<andythenorth>can I just delete that?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes/no
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>games which have no indication as to their mechanics are terrible
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08:45<andythenorth>is it also terrible to have ‘increase by 360%'
08:45<andythenorth>?
08:45<andythenorth>360% of what?
08:45<andythenorth>base production?
08:45<andythenorth>current production?
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09:15<Eddi|zuHause>but that's just a matter of HOW to display it
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>not about not displaying it at all
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>"production level: medium; next production level: 12/50 supplies per month"
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>also, gtg
09:19<andythenorth>bye
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's election day. the current government might be voted out. and no new government in sight.
09:20<andythenorth>larks
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>and the fun part is, the "current government" is already both the labour and the conservative party together
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>if they both combined get <50%, you know something is not right :p
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09:45<Wolf01>"Running biters over with a car or tank will make them aggressive in peaceful mode" meh... :D
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10:11<V453000>:)
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10:56<andythenorth>lo Alberth
10:57<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:11<andythenorth>ugh, the text stack
11:16<@Alberth>nml doesn't do magic there?
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11:25<andythenorth>seems it does
11:26<andythenorth>if I didn’t have example from frosch, I’d never have figured it out though :)
11:26<andythenorth>needs OR and shift
11:32<@Alberth>sounds tricky for some text
11:32<@Alberth>:O 896 ton of metal from a steel mill :)
11:34<@Alberth>some idiot built it on a mountain, which is clear a bad place for such a thing :p
11:35<andythenorth>ha ha
11:45<andythenorth>1000% production for gung ho is ridiculous :P
11:46<andythenorth>35000 items of livestock per month
11:46<andythenorth>or it’s a bug eh?
11:46<@Alberth>hmm, must do supplies to the mill :p
11:47<@Alberth>but yeah, sounds a bit much-ish :p
11:47<andythenorth>it’s a bug :P
11:47<andythenorth>the supplies code is brain-numbing
11:48<@Alberth>3500 does sound like a lot already as input
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11:51*andythenorth fixes that
11:52<andythenorth>I don’t think the % boost is needed in industry window
11:53<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7691/industry_window_new_production_params.png
11:53<andythenorth>^ I don’t think more than that is needed
11:54<andythenorth>if player wants to know what boost, just watch the window for a month
11:54<andythenorth>or check the parameter value they set :P
11:54<andythenorth>or trust the defaults :P
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11:58<@Alberth>people like numbers :p
11:58<@Alberth>ever seen those city builder scripts? they just dump a silly amount of numbers in the window :p
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11:59<andythenorth>don’t they just
11:59<andythenorth>then the players ask what it all means
11:59<andythenorth>I should put a note in the window: “It’s not about industry numbers, go and build some more trains"
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12:05<@Alberth>:)
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12:33<andythenorth>dunno, I do prefer it with fewer numbers
12:34<andythenorth>enough numbers in that window already
12:34<andythenorth>not sure frosch will agree :|
12:36<@Alberth>yep, less numbers is better
12:37<V453000>:(
12:37<V453000>numbers are ok
12:37<_dp_>moar numbers!
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12:44*andythenorth invents evil FIRS
12:44<andythenorth>‘Enhanced’ production: 50%
12:44<andythenorth>‘Gung ho’ production: 25%
12:44<andythenorth>:P
12:44<_dp_>bad firs, won't get any supplies :p
12:45<andythenorth>what’s the minimum sensible value for enhanced, as % of production?
12:46<andythenorth>100? 101?
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12:52*andythenorth leaving a code mess :P
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12:55<_dp_>0? ^^
12:55<_dp_>would make for a nice way of screwing up competitors xD
12:56<andythenorth>yup
13:03<peter1138>hi
13:07<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
13:07<andythenorth>err
13:07*andythenorth will now leave in embarassment, auto-complete fail
13:07<andythenorth>hi peter1138
13:09<andythenorth>in what kind of lexical sort ir ‘pl’ before ‘pe’ ? :P
13:13<andythenorth>Alberth: ? o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7692/FIRS_2_prod_parameters_2.png
13:15<@Alberth>sneakily hiding a few parameters :p
13:15<@Alberth>looks easy to understand to me
13:15<@Alberth>you mention the "three months" period in the supply crate counts?
13:16<andythenorth>yeah
13:16<andythenorth>I’m not even sure that quite works
13:17<@Alberth>maybe we should have a "numbers" cargo :)
13:17<andythenorth>ha
13:17<andythenorth>required: 50 numbers
13:17<andythenorth>I think this bit is done, but I’m not sure what to do about the ports
13:18<@Alberth>would make great cargo graphics :p
13:18<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXfvAjZjFk
13:22<@Alberth>+1
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13:23<V453000>nice
13:23<andythenorth>currently the ‘amount required’ parameter doesn’t affect ports
13:24<andythenorth>but the ‘amount produced’ parameter doe
13:24<andythenorth>does *
13:24<andythenorth>:P
13:24*andythenorth might ship it that way and see what happens
13:25*andythenorth wonders if this could have been two parameters instead
13:25<andythenorth>1) ‘Supply requirements: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
13:25<andythenorth>2) ‘Effect of supplies: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
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13:31<@Alberth>none :p
13:32<@Alberth>trouble is a bit what the base of gung ho is
13:32<@Alberth>is "low" relative to enhanced or to standard production?
13:32<@Alberth>but I like names :)
13:37*andythenorth can see no good solution :D
13:41<andythenorth>maybe I split ports production template, for starters :P
13:41<andythenorth>and take ports out of this
13:44<@Alberth>haven't played with ports yet, still working on the steel mill tracks :p
13:44<@Alberth>what is the problem with them?
13:45<andythenorth>they use the same code for boosting production as mines, farms etc
13:45<@Alberth>it's a pity you cannot have some values be represented by a name :)
13:46<andythenorth>? o_O
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13:47<@Alberth>then you could have numbers, but have some nice name for some of them, indicating a sort of recommended value :)
13:48<@Alberth>how is using the same code a problem?
13:48<@Alberth>that's an internal issue right?
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13:49<@Alberth>ie I don't care if you have completely separate code for each industry or not :p
13:49<andythenorth>it’s more that the behaviour is connected
13:49<andythenorth>but not in a way that is easy to represent to player
13:49<andythenorth>so farm needs 16 units for ‘Enhanced’, port needs 160
13:50<andythenorth>farm needs 128 units for ‘Gung ho’, port needs 480
13:50<andythenorth>they seem quite different to me
13:50<@Alberth>why the difference?
13:50<@Alberth>oh, you have only one enhanced setting
13:50<andythenorth>ports have 3 input cargos, all of them tend to be quite widely available
13:51<andythenorth>ports are ridiculously easy with lower requirements
13:51<@Alberth>make enhanced + gungho settings for ports?
13:51<andythenorth>moar parameters
13:51<andythenorth>maybe that’s the only answer :)
13:52<@Alberth>you have less than 10 or so, doesn't look like a problem to me
13:52<@Alberth>as long as they have a clear meaning
13:53<@Alberth>you ever looked at the number of parameters of BB? :p
13:53<andythenorth>yes
13:53<@Alberth>it's ridiculous for such a script :)
13:53<andythenorth>I often find I have set them wrong :)
13:54<andythenorth>the town cargoes goal params I always leave at default :)
13:54<@Alberth>defaults are fixable :p
13:55<@Alberth>the duration is too long perhaps, we didn't change it after modifying how it reacts to deliveries
13:56<andythenorth>for BB?
13:57<@Alberth>but imho, ports parameters are clear in meaning. It also makes more clear that ports are different from normal industries
13:57*andythenorth wonders if ‘Gung ho’ can always just be 2x ‘Enhanced'
13:57<andythenorth>does anyone really need to change that?
13:58<@Alberth>yes for BB, first the duration was for total delivery, now it's time to the next delivery, always
13:58<@Alberth>likely they will need
13:58<andythenorth>hmm
13:58<andythenorth>probably
13:59<@Alberth>you could reduce to one, as a multiplier from enhanced
13:59<@Alberth>but that saves you only one settings
13:59<andythenorth>yeah
13:59<@Alberth>not worth the additional limits that you add, imho
14:00*andythenorth wonders if this can be one parameter total
14:01<andythenorth>“Grim and mean” | “Harsh but fair” | “Reasonable” | “Generous” | “Gushing over"
14:01<@Alberth>make a list with every combination :p
14:01<andythenorth>I was too embarassed to post that suggestion
14:01<andythenorth>but I seriously considered it
14:01<andythenorth>one parameter, compound options :P
14:02<@Alberth>would be nice to have it, for people that don't like tweaking numbers
14:02<andythenorth>people who can tweak the numbers could also recompile :P
14:03<@Alberth>you could do suggestions for numbers in the description
14:04<@Alberth>nah, tweaking a number in a newgrf parameter window is not quite the same as compiling a newgrf, in particular for MP :)
14:04<@Alberth>release a firs for every setting combination :p
14:05<andythenorth>ha ha
14:05<andythenorth>I think I have to leave it alone for a bit
14:05<andythenorth>the I have no (good) idea what to do with it, and the code is becoming spiders
14:05<andythenorth>I should put in this steel mill instead http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7693/SteelMillAssembled.png
14:05<@Alberth>:O much better than default
14:06<andythenorth>it’s from Oz (not OzTrans), years old
14:06<@Alberth>mostly because I have seen that one for a lot of years already :)
14:06<andythenorth>never made it into game though
14:06<andythenorth>Dan repainted it some
14:06<@Alberth>lots of details in the chimneys
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14:09<andythenorth>ho
14:09<andythenorth>maybe supplies behaviour shouldn’t be configurable at all? o_O
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14:10<@Alberth>why?
14:10<andythenorth>simpler ;)
14:10<andythenorth>simple wins?
14:11<@Alberth>then just skip opening the parameter window :p
14:11<andythenorth>but even then...
14:11<V453000>that is quite a nice steel mill indeed
14:11<andythenorth>when I play NoCarGoal I want aggressive production from supply deliveries
14:11<andythenorth>when I play Busy Bee, I want smaller amounts, Gung ho ruins my nice random networks
14:11<@Alberth>I think it's great you open up that mechanism, it makes people be able to tune the industry set
14:12*andythenorth wonders how many people open the parameters
14:12<andythenorth>and whether they ever discover economies
14:13<@Alberth>V can do a yeti advertisement for settung up firs parameters :p
14:13<@Alberth>you changed the default to "basic" in the climate they play, I hope?
14:14<@Alberth>but yeah, so many people are stuck in temperate, even in standard openttd :)
14:16<@Alberth>I wouldn't be surprised if some people don't know there are more climates :)
14:16<V453000>yeti advertisement? :d
14:17<andythenorth>I changed the default to Temperate Basic :D
14:18*andythenorth awaits bug reports “I like the new sprites, but why did you delete all the industries"
14:18<@Alberth>close enough :p
14:18<@Alberth>haha :)
14:18<andythenorth>‘parameters’ is not a _great_ word for that button in newgrf gui
14:18<@Alberth>point to website: see? not deleted
14:19<@Alberth>customize?
14:19<@Alberth>difficult word :p
14:19<@Alberth>enhance?
14:19<andythenorth>‘Settings'
14:19<@Alberth>tweak? tune?
14:20<@Alberth>settings in newgrf settings??? :o
14:20<andythenorth>even settings need settings :P
14:20<andythenorth>yeah not good
14:20<andythenorth>brb
14:20<@Alberth>byue
14:20<@Alberth>-u
14:21<V453000>instead of Parameters I would use Fuck Your Game Up
14:22<@Alberth>*beep* your game up :p
14:24<_johannes>Hello
14:24<_johannes>does someone know how to build headquarters?
14:31<andythenorth>company window
14:34<_johannes>ah thanks!
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27523 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2016-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 )
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
14:45<@DorpsGek>latvian: 1 change by Jancs
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15:52<drac_boy>hi
16:12<andythenorth>Alberth, V453000 o_O http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7694/steel_mill.png
16:12<@Alberth>looks great
16:13*andythenorth has a few tweaks to make
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16:13<V453000>yeah something about the black furnaces doesn't fit FIRS
16:13<V453000>but in general it is a great direction
16:13<V453000>I think random bright pixels are the thing
16:14<V453000>there are too many same-shade areas
16:14<andythenorth>compare to http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=190009
16:15<andythenorth>it’s obviously not same style I guess
16:15<andythenorth>the brick building is a very old, crap sprite of mine
16:15<andythenorth>and the chimneys need work
16:15<drac_boy>actually I like the chimneys on that one :)
16:15<V453000>both are great
16:15<drac_boy>heh ^
16:16<V453000>the black one just needs some improvements
16:16*andythenorth will cook, eat and improve
16:16<andythenorth>I have ~1hr before sleeping is needed
16:17<drac_boy>:)
16:19*andythenorth drinks Czech wheat-free beer
16:19<andythenorth>and thinks of V453000
16:19<V453000>aren't you mixing up wheat and alcohol?
16:20<V453000>would explain some problems in FIRS chains :P
16:20*andythenorth couldn’t drink beer for 2 years, it was sad
16:20<andythenorth>then I found wheat free beer, which is mostly crap
16:20<andythenorth>but this Czech one is good
16:20<andythenorth>RL story :P
16:22<V453000>ah
16:22<V453000>gluten thing?
16:22<V453000>btw what is the beer called?
16:22<andythenorth>CELIA
16:23<andythenorth>not exactly gluten, but I eat the same stuff as people with gluten thing
16:23<andythenorth>from Zatec
16:23<V453000>right :d
16:24<V453000>dont know that
16:24<andythenorth>probably quite niche :P
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16:54<frosch123>andythenorth: the 'recompile' argument is not valid for multiplayer:)
16:54<andythenorth>ho ho
16:54<andythenorth>frosch123: where are you anyway? :)
16:54<andythenorth>weird timezone
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16:55<frosch123>It's 7:55
16:55<frosch123>Sydney
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16:58<drac_boy>16:59 here if that even matters ;)
17:01<andythenorth>frosch123: so I’m currently ‘stuck’ on the production params, although it is shippable as it stands :)
17:01<andythenorth>dunno if it’s good yet though
17:01<andythenorth>but you probably need breakfast, not FIRS
17:02<@Alberth>it needs a breakfast industry too :p
17:02*drac_boy throws some pixelated pancakes around?
17:02<drac_boy>:P
17:09<Supercheese>Syrup farms
17:09<Supercheese>sounds perfect for Toyland
17:09<Supercheese>Transport giant hotcakes on flatcars
17:09<Supercheese>Syrup in tankers
17:10<Supercheese>each refrigerated car has a single enormous stick of butter
17:12<andythenorth>all too realistic
17:12<andythenorth>these things exist
17:14<Supercheese>giant hotcakes on flatcars?
17:19<frosch123>andythenorth: without the numbers in the industry gui: does some random guy joining a aerver know what's going on?
17:20<andythenorth>not sure :)
17:20<andythenorth>another parameter? o_O
17:20<andythenorth>More Numbers | Fewer Numbers?
17:20<frosch123>Taking a look at the newgrf settings for that seems weird, though it is probably also the case for other settings
17:20<@Alberth>the "easy for random guy at random server" setting :p
17:22*andythenorth wonders about that :P
17:22<andythenorth>seriously
17:23<frosch123>Nah, then firs also needs to disable town rating :p
17:23<frosch123>I think numbers are fine
17:23<frosch123>Kids should stay in school
17:24<andythenorth>I am overwhelmed by the numbers tbh
17:25<andythenorth>I just want to close the window :)
17:25<andythenorth>maybe there’s some way to solve that though
17:25<andythenorth>remove ‘Gung Ho’ and ‘Enhanced'
17:29<frosch123>They need names for talking
17:30<frosch123>But ok, skip the numbers
17:30<frosch123>People also need to look up other settings
17:33<andythenorth>something is unsatisfactory about all of it :)
17:33<andythenorth>and I don’t just mean your patch :)
17:33<andythenorth>maybe I should swap supplies for Yetis
17:39<andythenorth>maybe it’s the ports :P
17:40<andythenorth>should ports be just processing industries?
17:40<andythenorth>output amount = delivered amount
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17:55<andythenorth>primary industries just produce in direct proportion to supplies delivered?
17:55<frosch123>Nah, ports are an easy early way to supplies
17:55<andythenorth>and player can set multiplier?
17:55<andythenorth>supplies in = primary cargos out?
17:55<frosch123>Thats bad :p
17:56<andythenorth>I think I have to add the parameters for ports also maybe
17:56*andythenorth trying to avoid that
17:56<frosch123>The levels make it interesting to supply multiple industries
17:57*drac_boy pokes flygon with a hot bone
17:57<frosch123>Anything continuous would either send everything to one, or it would be way too hard to balance
17:58<frosch123>Ports are imho not worth the params
17:58<frosch123>Just give them 10x requirements
17:59<andythenorth>10x works for enhanced
17:59<andythenorth>gung ho, not so much :)
17:59<frosch123>Hmm
18:00<andythenorth>ports were always a hack :)
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, if you think it's going to be bad, it's actually even worse
18:01<andythenorth>think I’ve found the limits of this particular hack, resp. code _and_ gameplay both
18:02<drac_boy>:)
18:03<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> ugh, the text stack <-- the problem with the text stack is that it's not actually a stack. it has no "push" function
18:04<andythenorth>is that why it never makes any sense to me :)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>but it mostly makes it annoying for me
18:05<andythenorth>it’s a long time since I used it, but iirc it’s built as dwords, and (usually) read as words, so it has to be packed two values per register also
18:05*andythenorth can’t remember, but saw some code for that today
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you also have to manually count the registers
18:06<drac_boy>anyway going make some supper for now
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18:08<frosch123>Bye
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>election results kinda scare me. i should stop looking
18:10<andythenorth>never read news before bedtime :P
18:10<andythenorth>or first thing in the morning either
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's like 4 hours away
18:10<andythenorth>exactly
18:10<andythenorth>'before'
18:18*andythenorth bed now
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18:50<Wolf01>'night
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19:46<drac_boy>hi
19:48<drac_boy>just wondering as I'm not sure how common they are but..any of you ever seen these turntables that basically look like a cd placed flat to ground .. rather than the other type where theres a pit in the ground and a bridge-like trestle sitting in center instead?
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19:53*drac_boy also wonder if flygon is still asleep too :)
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20:19<Flygon>Derp
20:23<drac_boy>flygon :p I got something for you re gauge gone wonky ;)
20:24<Flygon>Hum?
20:25<drac_boy>http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/russ/russrefr.htm read about the first locomotive especially the part that says "wrecked every" too :)
20:25<Flygon>Ahh, the 2-14-2?
20:25<Flygon>Oh, 2-14-4
20:25<Flygon>Was going by memory
20:26<drac_boy>you were close :)
20:26<drac_boy>it actually came out as a 4-14-4 revision as the photo shows..and even a man standing next to it for size idea too
20:26<Flygon>In some ways, having this in 2CC set would be nice
20:26<drac_boy>crazy big thing tho :)
20:27<Flygon>But in others, we haven't implemeneted preventing turns for shorter than 2 tiles :B
20:28<drac_boy>btw on the other hand there is one steam locomotive that looks big for its gauge but it actually runs pretty well (still around today too) one moment I'll find it for you :)
20:29<Flygon>Just a note, that I do gotta do the dishes in a few minutes x.x
20:31<drac_boy>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kBmwGTBBWgY/maxresdefault.jpg thats a Harz 99.23 ... 2-10-2T tank that overshadows the usual wagons for this 1000mm railway :)
20:31<drac_boy>as I recall that chunky big thing was designed as a mallet replacement (the 0-4-4-0T's yeah)
20:32<drac_boy>either way have fun with your kitchen dishes
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21:09*drac_boy throws a drying towel at flygon in case that would be of any help
21:09<Flygon>Actually, I JUST finished
21:09<drac_boy>;)
21:10<Flygon>Still kind of odd to see such large loading gauges on Meter or Cape Gauges
21:10<Flygon>Queensland, the 1067mm capital here
21:10<drac_boy>mm
21:10<Flygon>Not only has the world's largest 1067mm network, but one of the world's smallest loading gauges >_>
21:10<Flygon>For a network at or above 1000mm >_>
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21:13<drac_boy>well flygon whats up with these africa diesel locomotives that look like a pug with a squashed up nose? :)
21:13<drac_boy>(yep 1067mm too)
21:14<Flygon>Better loading gauge
21:14<Flygon>(and yet, most bafflingly, Queensland holds the NG speed record (STILL!!), and, officially, the Australian speed record. 210km/h)
21:14<Flygon>(unofficially, and contestedly, VLocity DMUs have hit 230km/h during stress testing)
21:14<drac_boy>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/SAR_Class_34-400_34-401.JPG this is not the most squashed one I have seen but you get the idea
21:15<Flygon>Looks like a T to me :3
21:21<drac_boy>btw 210kph...I sure hope the ballast crew were on their best that day too ;)
21:31<drac_boy>either way going now so have fun flygon
21:32<Flygon>'ave fun mang
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22:03<Flygon>sim-al2: These flyovers are getting more and more nightmarish
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22:57<Eddi|zuHause><Flygon> Still kind of odd to see such large loading gauges on Meter or Cape Gauges <-- the loading gauge is actually much larger on most of that network, as they often carried standard gauge wagons on carriers
22:58<Flygon>Eddi: Ding :D
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>and later they regauged standard diesel engines to run on that track
22:58<Flygon>Bloody hell :D
22:58<Flygon>You guys have your shit sorted
22:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is more of a local knowledge
23:00*Flygon nod
23:00<Flygon>I gotta brb, either way
23:00<Flygon>Picking family member up from train station
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-Baureihe_V_100#Baureihe_199.8_.28heute_HSB_199.8.29
23:00<Flygon>We're halfway between Europe and USA >_>
23:00<Flygon>PT consious enough to use the Train
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>on the regauged engines
23:00<Flygon>But automobile dependant enough to be a 35 minute walk from the station
23:00<Flygon>And she has a borked foot
23:01<Eddi|zuHause>you see how it's much larger than the wagon
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>35 minutes is like 4km
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you're actually travelling at "we need to get somewhere" speed
23:03<Eddi|zuHause>tbh, sometimes inner-city car trips take almost as long, with detours and finding a parking spot :p
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>comparison gets even worse if you consider bikes
23:37<Flygon>Eddi: This took 20 minutes longer than it should have, sorry
23:37<Flygon>Said passenger got stuck into a conversation with her friend >_>
23:38<Flygon>I WISH I had a bike
23:38<Flygon>A Recumbant would be nice, but parking them is difficult
23:38<Flygon>If you park it in a motorcycle spot, it'd get stolen too easily
23:38<Flygon>But they don't fit bike racks
---Logclosed Mon Mar 14 00:00:41 2016