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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-15

---Logopened Tue Mar 15 00:00:43 2016
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00:29<Flygon>I do wish I could build Newobjects by dragging for long distance
00:32<Supercheese>So do I
00:32<Supercheese>I'm very surprised drag & drop for objects hasn't been implemented yet
00:55<Flygon>It makes building them 5 file wide Expressways annoying
00:58<Flygon>sim-al2: Sadly, now is the time to retire Reykholt's Railbus system
00:58<Flygon>The city's grown too big
00:59<Flygon>Soo... it's to be replaced with Buses...
00:59<Flygon>...and a proper suburban Metro :3
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01:08<Flygon>I'll take one last screeshot
01:08<Flygon>But, it is completely insufficient as it is
01:08<Flygon>The city and sprawl has 5,000 people now
01:08<Flygon>Compared to 1,000 when I built it
01:10<Flygon>Alright, 'before' screenshot taken
01:11<sim-al2>I started a Japan Set game in 1900, the first electric car to arrive effectively is a railbus:
01:37<Flygon>It is vaguely amusing that, come the Freeway age, when RVs start becoming very good
01:37<Flygon>That it becomes easier to expand RAIL
01:38<Flygon>Mofunking Feeder Buses
01:38<Flygon>And less dependance on tiny freight trains :B
01:38<Flygon>Free up the lines of the smallest (but still profitable) of Freight Trains with Trucks... better pax. service
01:40<Flygon>OTTD really is a multimodal simulator
01:40<Flygon>Even if the Trains are the most powerful
01:40<Flygon>And most annoying to wrangle
01:41<Flygon> Dunno why I'm listening to this in 1951 tho
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08:13<argoneus>good morning train friends
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11:40<@Alberth>hi hi
11:42<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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12:49<supermop>how's it going in the land of rendered sprites, V453000 ?
12:49<V453000>absolute mayhem going on
12:49<V453000>100% in factorio mode at the moment, but when next release of factorio is out, I will get back to some serious insanity on openttd stuff
12:49<V453000>humans will love it, I guarantee
12:50<V453000>how iz ye?
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12:56<supermop>3rd week at a new job, so better than when at last job
12:56<supermop>and better than the 2 months i spent doing nothing between
12:56<V453000>in NY?
12:58<supermop>better neighborhood
12:58<supermop>or rather a neighborhood that doen't require me taking the 6 train with 2 million other people every morning
12:59<supermop>sorry 1.3 million
12:59<V453000>:) I am actually at the start of the process of moving to Prague
13:00<supermop>now i can walk or ride my bike
13:01<supermop>or if i'm late and lazy, take the less crowded and faster Q train
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13:01<supermop>today i still took the 6 line anyway because i am a moron
13:01<supermop>Where were you living before V453000 ?
13:01<V453000>Liberec, 100km from Prague
13:01<V453000>north of Czech Republic
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13:01<supermop>bit far to ride a bike every day
13:02<supermop>but you could do it
13:02<V453000>ye, bit far even by car, with all the subways and shit it is 2 hours from home to work
13:02<V453000>so, moving :)
13:02<supermop>ok lunch time, brb
13:03<supermop>better food near new work too!
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13:32<Wolf01>V, Factorio: I can't understand if it's me or it's not possible for the game: I need to limit the stuff moved by a train (the train already has reserved slots for the stuff), do I need 16 different smart inserters?
13:36<V453000>just click the big red X at the wagon?
13:36<@Alberth>ha, doesn't matter if you just make pretty pictures, you work on the game, you know everything about it :)
13:36<V453000>and middle mouse button to set filters for cargo slots Wolf01
13:37<V453000>but yeah, different smart inserters are the best option to prevent clogging
13:37<V453000>Alberth: ? :d
13:37<V453000>this is relatively basic, the shit some people know is just insane
13:37<@Alberth>hi hi andy
13:38<Wolf01>that's what I've done, but I'm moving stuff to a really distant outpost and I'm using one train with one wagon to move 10-15 different types of things
13:39<V453000>having 1 smart inserter per cargo type is best there
13:39<@Alberth>V: yep, I know about those players, there is this coop club in openttd.... :)
13:40<V453000>Alberth: coop people are completely normal in compare
13:42<Wolf01>the map looks like a motherboard
13:42<V453000>that is one of the core concepts of factorio? :P
13:43<andythenorth>action 14 could gain a separator? o_O
13:43<V453000>btw if you use a mod with long handed smart inserters, you can put more cargoes in your trains more easily Wolf01
13:44<Wolf01>the bad part of factorio is that for really distant outposts you can't connect them with the circuit network, I'm also waiting for 0.13 and all the new train features
13:44<V453000>why couldn't you
13:44<V453000>just a lot of wires, yeah
13:45<V453000>can blueprint those and then drive around in a car for quick construction
13:45<V453000>not a huge issue
13:45<V453000>or you can do some unloading magic with the train and just detect if the cargo is required by wiring up the actual loading station at your main base
13:45<Wolf01>that was the idea
13:46<V453000>ah right
13:46<V453000>well, more wagons / smart long handed inserter mod :P
13:47<Wolf01>I did that with the "empty oil barrels" station, if the station has enough barrels, disable the factory which produces them in the main base
13:47*andythenorth broke FIRS
13:48<V453000>andythenorth: wasn't broken before? :P
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13:51<andythenorth>not like this
13:51<Wolf01>V, and I really miss slot reservation in chests, there is in the rail wagons and the toolbelt, I can't understand why it's not implemented everywhere
13:52<V453000>that I have no clue why either
13:52<V453000>maybe 0.13, but idk
13:52<V453000>I can ask
13:55<V453000>ok, it is "being thought about":D
13:55*andythenorth must stop ebaying
13:58<V453000>andythenorth: credit card -100 model trains and -50 lego currency units in debt?
13:58<andythenorth>“it’s a bargain, must buy it"
13:58<andythenorth>“all the bargains are gone, might as well pay full price"
13:58<andythenorth>“now I must win this"
13:58<Wolf01>I have that problem with game bundles
14:00<V453000>omg I am in gambler channel :D
14:00*V453000 must focus moar on modelz
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14:07*andythenorth checked bank balance
14:07<andythenorth>and ebay ‘bids I have made’ :(
14:07<+glx>bids are higher ?
14:07<andythenorth>not _that_ bad
14:07<andythenorth>but bank balance will be much smaller if I win these :(
14:08<andythenorth>OTOH, it’s quite fun to make bids and lose, it’s like saving money
14:09<@Alberth>playing the game "make the 2nd highest bid?" :p
14:11<andythenorth>“how much do I think the other guy will pay” :P
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14:28<supermop>andythenorth: try to make other people pay as much as possible for stuff the seller would have happily sold cheaply?
14:30<@Alberth>so other people have no money and andy can get goods for cheap price :p
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14:35<andythenorth>I considered that game :P
14:35<andythenorth>but I think all it does it drive up perception of market value in a niche
14:36<andythenorth>awesome, I just sold something :D
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16:09<Wolf01>!14789&authkey=!AMQT65w57jxF6EQ&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng I have a bit of pest problem
16:12<V453000>small bases eh
16:12<Wolf01>oh that's the solar power array for the new outpost
16:13<V453000>mean enemies
16:14<Wolf01>oh, those, they were larger when I started to develop in that area, about twice as they are now
16:16<V453000>hm damn I actually have twice as many hours on that save already :D
16:18<V453000>one thing I hate about factorio is how much pain it is to manage mods with different saves
16:19<Wolf01>it should autoload only the right mods, ottd is wonderful in this feature
16:20<V453000>yeah exactly
16:20<V453000>it might at some point though
16:20<V453000>a new factory appeared
16:20<Wolf01>Error (404)
16:21<V453000>upload slow, F5
16:22<V453000>PS, in this game I was using bobs modules, the bonuses you get from them are pure retardation. :D And I even disabled the god modules, those would be just that much worse
16:22<Wolf01>I too need to rearrange all the first base stuff, I'm moving every product to a different place now
16:23<V453000>generally I have the main base as a place where everything is automated
16:23<V453000>and other places are for improving throughput which doesn't fit into main base
16:23<V453000>like circuits or smelting
16:27<Wolf01>!14790&authkey=!AGLRaAhxHUQW38Y&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng this is my first base
16:29<Wolf01>and this is the smelter!14791&authkey=!AHJZLbYRrAEzERc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cpng
16:29<V453000>that is infinitely organized compared to my first base
16:29<Wolf01>I rebuild every piece multiple times, then when I need more space, I move an entire block to a different place
16:30<V453000>yeah I keep things as they were as long as I can
16:30<V453000>I did that in openttd as well :)
16:31<V453000>btw best offensive tactic: get autofill mod, gun turrets immediatelly become the strongest thing in the game
16:31<V453000>you just run in and plant turrets in front of yourself :D
16:32<V453000>their dps is insane with upgrades, you place a lot of them as you run so they dont even manage to die, and you are safe cause you place them in front of you so biters detect turrets first and aggro to them
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16:33<Wolf01>for example, in the first base you can see the old smelter, now used only for batteries, the circuit boards were produced in just one factory near the smelter, then I needed a lot of circuits and moved them above and in the freed space I built the sulphur factory for the batteries :)
16:37<Wolf01>playing with mods seems nice, but I don't want to overkill the game just for some bits I want to change, I welcome new additions if they don't really change the gameplay, but some mods look like adding rollercoasters to a flight simulator
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16:52<Wolf01>yes, really
16:58<V453000>I don't mind rollercoasters
16:59<V453000>but the fact that a big mod usually adds shitload of recipes and ingredients, to the point where building a belt-based factory is pure masochism later on
16:59<V453000>and since it also boosts bots to retarded levels, you can just easily make an all-bots factory
16:59<V453000>which is kind of ...
17:00<@Alberth>a different game?
17:00<V453000>yeah, well ... I like to build the factories with belt clutter, the belt clutter reminds me of openttd and tracks
17:02<@Alberth>so some mods are not for you :)
17:02<@Alberth>just like some newgrfs are not for you in openttd
17:03<V453000>well openttd doesn't really have that much depth in this regard, vehicle newgrfs can't change the game that much
17:03<V453000>or other newgrfs
17:31<andythenorth>another sale :)
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18:10<Supercheese>andythenorth: Bug report in FIRS base English strings
18:10<Supercheese>3 vehicles per 8 crates metal delivered
18:10<Supercheese>Metal should be tons, not crates
18:10<andythenorth>so it should :)
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19:46<drac_boy>hi mr.parttime-trainnut?
19:46<drac_boy>heh sorry I dunno why I'm liking to say that
19:53<drac_boy>hmm *bonks a harmless tumbleweed off flygon's head for some reason* :->
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20:04<drac_boy>btw flygon and sim-a12 about big gauges I almost forgot about it but even if it never got to exist in real scale (that is as a commercial route you know what I mean) its still interesting to see what hilter's people had been thinking
20:05<drac_boy>basically a super-broad gauge yep 0_0 .. not sure how ineffective the massively large-sized steam boilers would had been tho (but at least diesel or electric makes reasonable sense)
20:06<drac_boy>(for anyone here: the black steam locomotive is normal gauge for comparison sake)
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20:12<sim-al2>Like many other plans of the time, I don't think they were particularly well thought out
20:13<sim-al2>It feels a lot like the 50's/60's future gazing, but with even more propaganda aspects
20:13<drac_boy>yeah I think the problem of metal stress would also had probably came into play if not the issue with production of such large metal pieces during wartime
20:14<Flygon>drac_boy: Wasn't that 3m gauge?
20:14<sim-al2>Also, that crew door is like 10+ feet off the ground. I think this was an engineer-free zone
20:14<drac_boy>btw have you seen the scanlets for old Popular Science magazines and the like? they always have these silly spaceship-styled trains (and often on some fictional one-rail setup that might not work in real life either)
20:15<sim-al2>Yeah, there's no way they could have afforded to build that massive infrastructure
20:16<Flygon>iirc, the idea behind 3m gauge was so they could drive military equipment between the rails
20:16<Flygon>The engineers involved wanted two 1435mm tracks instead, due to being more servicable
20:16<Flygon>I think they were going for two bogies side-by-side
20:16<sim-al2>I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
20:17<sim-al2>Building tunnels and bridges to fit those massive things would have been a nightmare
20:19<drac_boy>btw I do recall there was one real case of rather-broad gauges ... it was some sort of funicular-like system for lifting a boat sideway between two extreme elevation differences
20:20<drac_boy>not sure I recall what the gauge were or how these few special wagons were eventually made
20:21<drac_boy>maybe if I could recall more details I'll be able to find it (not these stupid cheap "home system" little rails to lift their 20hp boats out of the lake with)
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20:25<drac_boy>(it made sense after all..considering that having the hull (or body of water as wide as the hull itself either way) held by a wide gauge probably kept it easily stable the entire time
20:27<sim-al2>They certainly help save money over, say, massive lock complexes
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20:27<drac_boy>yeah locks probably are reasonable for if its only 2-3 doors ... or spread out over a rather long distance ... but lifts is best if you have a lot of rise in short distance
20:28<drac_boy>thats what I think anyway, you? ^
20:29<sim-al2>Yeah, I don't know of too many systems that don't cover a signifcant elevation change, a funicular of that scale is a pretty significant investment
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20:35<drac_boy>oh I finally found something, apparently its 'canal plane' not 'boat lift' I should had keyworded the first time around ... the first photo looks for sure like a very wide gauge .. the second photo's page link quotes 3.27m gauge and it looks like the gauge was made to align with the side supports on the cradles themself which makes sense
20:35<drac_boy>so there we go .. its wider than russia's railroad gauge .. even if its not exactly a "train kind of railroad" itself in this sense
20:37<Flygon><sim-al2> I wonder how much damage those future train visions actually did, since the ones that did get built tended to not work very well. Meanwhile, the European countries and others spent less time on design fads
20:37<Flygon>Australia never had the time to go for any such stuff
20:38<Flygon>The closest we got was some kickass Streamliners
20:38<Flygon>Like New South Wales's 38xx actually resembling a Shinkansen
20:39<drac_boy>flygon heh .. streamliner and you being aussie .. guess what one of my favorite steam locomotive somehow is? :P (hint: it was close to where you live heh)
20:39<Flygon> They regulary punched over 160km/h, to boot
20:40<Flygon>xP I know of the Spirit of Progress, drac_boy
20:40<Flygon>Sooo many Americans think it's a Diesel when they first see it
20:40<Flygon>So... erm, VR certainly did their job well xP
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20:40<Flygon>Anyway, I gotta brb, dishes time
20:41<sim-al2>Russian gauge isn't really all that much wider, 1520 mm vs 1435 mm (or 5 ft vs 4 ft 8.5 in )
20:42<sim-al2>But yeah, heavy duty rails, like those for cranes and other industrial facilities had vastly wider spacing
20:42<drac_boy>flygon let me give you a better hint: it had a slight inward slanted nose (alike to that Baldwin Sharknose diesel in usa not surprisingly) ... and was quoted as "has power under the belt" regarding working on express routes with some grades
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20:52<drac_boy>sorry have to go for now but see you another time flygon :)
20:52<drac_boy>and bye sim-train :p hehe
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20:54<sim-al2>Hmmm, another Australian slant-nose, albiet a very different era:
21:05<Flygon>Ahh, yes
21:05<Flygon>The AN-Class loco :3
21:05<Flygon>A shame AN company got dismantled
21:05<Flygon>The AN-Class loco could've been nice for express pax
21:05<Flygon>They're grunty af
21:11<sim-al2>Geared decently high, I wonder why, since they were mostly freight
21:13<sim-al2>150 km/h, vs the 115 km/h or so of most modern freight types in Oz
21:18<Flygon>I suspect they miiiight've wanted to use them on pax
21:18<Flygon>But I truly don't know
21:18<Flygon>With the high gearing tho, they'd be useful for MODERN V/Line pax >_>
21:18<Flygon>But, they're too old now
21:18<Flygon>V/Line really would benefit from extra locos as an interum until they get more VLocities
21:19<sim-al2>Yeah, I was just reading, apparently the high gearing of the EL class was because they were intended for express working, perhaps they felt the AN had enough TE even with the high gearing
21:20<sim-al2>You can see the limits of the lightweight traction motors like the GE 761 in the EL Class though, compared to the 752 that was dominant in North America
21:23<sim-al2>Even regeared now, it's 232 kN continuous for an EL, compared to 485 kN continuous for the Aussie Dash 8 locomotives (
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21:40<Flygon>sim-al2: Australian, in general, either way
21:40<Flygon>Tends to have locos capping out @ 115km/h
21:40<Flygon>Most of our tracks never worked well for High Speed working
21:41<Flygon>Even if, especially in the steam era, the machines were way more than capble of blowing the speed limit
21:41<Flygon>Like, with VR's Spirit of Progress/S-Class express passengers
21:41<Flygon>They were only meant to cap out at 115km/h, and enforced by paper recorder
21:41<Flygon>Cue the rare occassions where the recorder ran out of paper...
21:42<Flygon>Going by drivers reading from their own speedometer, and this is largely a 'reportedly' thing, because, obviously, the recorder wasn't exactly recording, they would regulary blow 150km/h in revenue service if they could get away with it >_>
21:42<Flygon>And, apperantly, didn't push faster, because they didn't want to be seen as arriving conspicuously early at stations...
21:47<Flygon>It's a shame we'll never find out if they could beat the 38xx
21:47<Flygon>They all got scrapped, and the closest relatives are... not really close enough
21:51<Flygon>(basically, the H-Class aka. Heavy Harry would need both heavy restoration, and, even then, it's driving wheels are actually smaller. It would never give a true representation of top speed)
21:52<Flygon>(the R-Class has the driving wheel size, and is a newer design, but it's not really as powerful... but it is certainly the most available class to actually try a speed trial on)
21:55<Flygon> The final say in Victorian Steam, even if not intentionally
21:55<sim-al2>Almost a let-down
21:56<sim-al2>Compared to the streamliners appearing before
21:56<Flygon>Still, there is a few things I want to note
21:56<Flygon>In the 90s, and early 00s
21:56<Flygon>It actually got used for mainline services, in place of Diesel locos
21:56<Flygon>40 years after it was build
21:56<Flygon>Mainly because
21:56<Flygon>1. It's cool
21:57<Flygon>2. They're actually quite powerful, and can hold an N-Class locomotive's schedule
22:00<Flygon>3. When WCR added modifications to several R-Classes in the late 90s, the output from the chimeny was powerful enough to actually blast holes in 1850s brickwork when they went through some Bendigo line tunnels... @_______@
22:01<sim-al2>That sounds expensive...
22:01<Flygon>Yeah, that's why the modifications got removed later on
22:02<Flygon>They were mantainence intensive
22:02<Flygon> A fair few of the R-Classes got fitted with DMU controls, too
22:02<Flygon>Sadly, due to the fact that they need a human shoveler, they can't actually act as a Slave to another Steam or Diesel loco
22:03<Flygon>Would have been very interesting to see the H-Class fitted with DMU controls, that can also send vital Steam related information to the other locos... the damn thing is powerful enough to outclass every other Australian loco until the 1990s >_>
22:05<sim-al2>Wow, averaging 51mph with six stops over 166mi. Not bad...
22:06<Flygon>Spirit of Progress?
22:06<Flygon>It'd be higher if there wasn't a speed limit :3
22:07<sim-al2>No, the WCR R-class schedule
22:08<Flygon>Yeah, it's the same as the Diesel schedule
22:08<Flygon>They would sometimes run with a Diesel behind the Steam Loco for low end acceleration, though
22:08<sim-al2>Would the services always be double-headed?
22:09<Flygon>But I think that only happened if they either needed to transfer the Diesel locomotive (and cbf doing it light loco), or if the consist was particulary long
22:09<Flygon>A lot were just the 'Super' R-Class alone
22:15<Flygon>Ooh, yeah, they were Oil Burning... I suppose they could have operated as DMU slaves if properly modified
22:15<Flygon>Though, by that point, it's more of an SMU+DMU :U
22:15<sim-al2>Really needs someone to watch the boiler though, just to make sure the water, etc. are in limits
22:15<Flygon>Yeah, hence the modifications
22:15<Flygon>You'd need that data relayed to the lead Diesel or Steam loco somehow
22:15<Flygon>With computers, nowadays, you can...
22:16<Flygon>But in the 50s? I wouldn't want to try
22:16<Flygon>...why is one of these passenger runs in the video triple headed
22:16<Flygon>(An R-Class, and two T-Class Diesels...)
22:17<sim-al2>The AAR MU system used on tons and tons of locomotives worldwide has an engine alarm bell, but nothing to really transmit other data
22:17<Flygon>(T-Class, aka. the most unkillable Diesel locomotive in Australian history)
22:17<Flygon>Yeah, exactly
22:19<Flygon>Huh, a few of the Diesels in the video are either running in idle, or turned off completely
22:19<sim-al2>Hmmm, isn't the max speed on the T-class only 100 km/h? The second train seems to be going at least that fast
22:20<Flygon>If the T-Classes are turned on, they might just be on idle
22:21<Flygon>However, as with everything VR related... the top speeds are merely a suggestion
22:21<Flygon> ...this is the perfect metaphor for how low budget our current railways are. Except it's not even a metaphor.
22:23<sim-al2>Judging by how many old locomotives are running around even now, it seems to be more of a supply problem
22:23<Flygon>It is
22:23<Flygon>They're 60 years old
22:23<sim-al2>Also, almost no wheelslip control
22:24<sim-al2>No sand does complicate things too
22:24<Flygon>It would have almost been easier to ring up V/Line and ask them to send over an N-Class locomotive... but they'd never have the budget for that
22:25<Flygon>It's literally cheaper to ditch the current trip, and reverse all the way back to somewhere for repairs
22:25<sim-al2>THe variety of locomotives running for the various groups is cool, but it doesn't seem terribly efficient at times
22:25<Flygon>Oooh, that's humiliating. It got overtaken by a VLo going 160...
22:26<Flygon>Hell, even a 3-Class VLo with transition couplers could've saved the train
22:26<sim-al2>Well, it is a freight train
22:26<sim-al2>It's really bad when passenger trains are being overtaken by freight trains
22:27<Flygon>Well, actually
22:27<Flygon>Suburban trains get overtaken by freight easily here
22:27<Flygon>Lots of stops
22:28<sim-al2>Fair enough, Amtrak had problems with various railroad's dispatch screwing them over
22:29<Flygon>Oh man, the comments...
22:29<Flygon>They have a point. Heavy Harry could very well have likely hauled the entire load lonesome @_@
22:29<sim-al2>If it could start the train...
22:30<Flygon>I mean, you have multiple consecutive normal punches with the 1000hp Diesel locos...
22:30<Flygon>And then you have the One Punch
22:30<Flygon>But, yeah. The situation here really hasn't improved.
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22:46<Supercheese> looks pretty neat
22:46<Supercheese>some clearly-TTD inspired stuff
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23:01<sim-al2>I mean even in just terms of weight on drivers, that consist should have much greater starting TE, and it still can't do it
23:05<Flygon>Yeah, the state of freght here's a mess
23:06<sim-al2>Stealing some of those new GE and EMD -based types from the north might help :p
23:07<Flygon>Wrong gauge
23:07<Flygon>Victoria needs to SGize already
23:07<Flygon>Then we can properly share shit with NSW
23:07<sim-al2>I imagine getting some bogies suitable to BG would be much cheaper in the short-term
23:08<Flygon>It is
23:08<Flygon>But there's still masive beaurocratic issues
23:08<Flygon>Main issue being that nobody has $$$
23:09<Flygon>And the Government's hopelessly ineffectual
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 16 00:00:44 2016