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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-16

---Logopened Wed Mar 16 00:00:44 2016
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03:40<Wolf01>hi o/
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04:55<degasus>damn guys, just because of you, only 4 hours sleep per day isn't funny....
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05:33<degasus>by the way, is there a way to automatically replace trains with more train engines? eg I want to replace two Lev2 per train with a single Lev4
05:34<degasus>or a single Lev2 with two of the same kind :D
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06:39<Flygon>This has to be the most requested OTTD feature
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06:47<degasus>oh, haven't seen this one on the common requested features. Likely I've just missed it ...
06:55<V453000>using a train set which makes all trains equal length fixes it
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06:56<degasus>I'm more asking about supporting multi engine trains. eg with very long trains, I may want to use 3 instead of 2 engines
06:56<V453000>I understand, but from what I heard (I am not a programmer myself), the feature is a big pain to implement
06:56<V453000>so it is better to just use train sets which work properly as they are
06:57<V453000>for example if all of the engines are 1 tile long in total, you can have a variety of "normal" and dual headed trains easily
06:58<degasus>yeah, the separation of "engine" and carriages doesn't sound trivial
06:58<V453000>in general it leads to some solution like "train patterns"or whatnot
06:58<V453000>but it's tough
06:58<degasus>maybe go up the big way, don't replace the engine, replace the train. So train configuration A shall be replaced with configuration B
06:59<V453000>if you want a train set where you can autoreplace any engine without losing wagons/problems, use NUTS train set :)
06:59<V453000>yeah something like that
06:59<degasus>I guess there are usually only a few configurations :D
07:01<V453000>yeah but still :)
07:01<V453000>it would probably require rewriting of many things how the trains work
07:01<degasus>oh, is it a technical or design decision to not allow bridges to cross? At different high levels of course
07:01<degasus>hopefully "only" the train replacement logic. Else this could should be rewritten anyways :D
07:02<V453000>kind of both ... in original ttd it wasn't there, and adding it means you need to check if the bridge below is low enough to allow another bridge on top
07:02<degasus>for the GFX? Else I'd say a different level is fine ;)
07:02<V453000>I believe such feature was quite close to done, to let bridges go over other lower bridges and stations, but each of the things would have it's "Z value" which would tell how tall it is, and from it would come the possibilities
07:03<V453000>well yeah mainly for not breaking the visuals too much
07:04<degasus>hm, Z per type sounds nice, indeed. For GFX, I hope low to upper blits shall fix all kind of this issues? But I'm not familiar with the old school 2d blittings :/
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07:26<degasus>by the way, how common is the feature request for curves within tunnels and bridges? :D
07:28<degasus>I'm dreaming of a rollercoaster tycoon building system, but I see why this will never come :D
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07:39<V453000>0% chance to success
07:44<degasus>no epsilon?
08:08<Flygon>I like to think of it as "A chance of success if enough money is thrown at it"
08:08<Flygon>But I haven't become a multi-millionaire off stocks yet
08:09<Flygon>And even worse
08:09<Flygon>I can't draw this freaking thumb
08:11<Flygon>It just ocoured to me that I can use my own hand as a reference.
08:18<Flygon>Didn't wrk
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10:21<degasus>Flygon: is there a point in missing money on the openttd project? Or more about man power?
10:21<Flygon>Howdy supermop
10:21<degasus>good, it's easier to get my time than my money :D
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10:23<V453000>lol, to make full use of blender's command line rendering you have to write python scripts for it
10:23<V453000>just to make it a proper 3D software
10:23<V453000>cute as fuck
10:23<degasus>I wish more applications have such a python API :D
10:24<supermop>rhino does
10:24<V453000>well sure, scripting can be an advantage, but it shouldn't be required to render a couple passes
10:25<V453000>forcing command line rendering is shit by itself already ... but command line not having access to majority of the important render settings is pure wtf
10:26<V453000>what you end up with is that the gui has a couple features, command line has a couple features, but neither is enough :D
10:26<V453000>so the only way is to make a python script which actually controls blender for you
10:26<degasus>how are those GFX packs generated? Are there some structured 3D data available for all objects?
10:27<V453000>kind of
10:27<supermop>never bothered with blender V453000
10:27<degasus>I've just found , and it makes me feel like trying to write a 3d renderer. But I'm not able to design *anything*
10:28<V453000>it isn't a bad program in general, I actually like working with it. But there are points when you can't believe such primitive functions are missing
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10:28<V453000>admittedly the learning curve is total bullshit. Starting with blender is the hardest software I have ever seen
10:28<supermop>the promote it as useful to the a&d industrustry, but to be honest i've never met an architect, interior designer, nor furniture designer who has ever heard of it other than myself.
10:28<V453000>mainly because there are almost no buttons for modelling tools, you need to remember hotkeys or die dumb dropdown menus
10:29<V453000>hehe yeah, well blender isn't a great fit for archviz
10:29<V453000>especially due to the cad imports etc, max wins 100%
10:29<V453000>also max is able to render anything you want easily ._.
10:30<V453000>I just don't get how can a 3D suite omit a feature like "being able to render shit"
10:30<V453000> /rant over
10:32<supermop>very few architects use max either tho - we just render directly in rhino/cad/revit while we work, then we pay someone like V453000 $$$ to render the nice presentation images in max for us
10:32<supermop>and bill the client
10:32<supermop>if we cant bill the client, just show them crappy screen grabs from some bullshit like sketchup
10:32<V453000>well yeah, that trend is of course going to be only better as architect-friendly programs are able to render better outputs
10:32<V453000>part of the reason why I wanted to leave the archviz industry
10:39<supermop>oops autocad caps lock
10:46<V453000>heh yeah $1000
10:46<V453000>blender cycles is a great render engine to be honest
10:46<V453000>just hard to output something from blender XD
11:01<supermop>ive seen some cool stuff out of it
11:04<supermop>does pikka use blender?
11:05<supermop>man so bummed, got last company to buy a rhino and flamingo license no problem, now this place only uses sketchup and taiwan
11:10<V453000>pikka used some old max version
11:11<V453000>I am assuming he still does
11:12<supermop>we don't even use currect sketch up - like a 5 yo version
11:12<supermop>so i cant use the free version of maxwell for sketch up with it
11:22<supermop>dont think 5 seats of revit are in the budget though
11:31<supermop>esp as i am the only one who even sort of knows how to use it
11:32<supermop>so workflow benefits would be lost
11:33<V453000>did you hear about the BIM database workflow?
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11:39<supermop>but we need better workflow tools here
11:39<supermop>like version control
11:39<supermop>actually we are small enough that it's just a nuisance, not a problem
11:41<V453000>hm :)
11:41<V453000>yeah vcs is a great thing
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11:43<V453000>idk how in the us but in europe it is getting more and more common that construction/architecture jobs require to be compatible with BIM system - it is a thing where during modelling you set materials, and these materials carry many values like prices per cubature, and many other things, so other professions than projectants can make use of it to determine price estimates and other shit ... basically all professions work in one database
11:45<V453000>but yeah it is a workflow oriented on bigger companies probably
11:45<V453000>though I read about some smaller architect studios using it
11:45<V453000>one of the huge downsides is that it takes like a year to start working efficiently in it, and of course the software price
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11:55<supermop>yeah, most big projects here are like that now, can revit really plugs into that workflow easily
11:55<supermop>but small firms doing small projects are kind of on the outside
11:56<supermop>the entry costs in time and money are too big to be worth it for them
11:56<supermop>if you are doing something small with a small team, you could say " we can manage ok without it"
11:59<supermop>and at a small firm, most of the decisions are driven by the principals, and if they are old guys - it was hard enough to get them to use cad. no way are they going to learn something different now, even if it is technically easier in the long run
11:59<V453000>yeah that was exactly the problem we were facing, the jump from drawing boards to cad was already enough for them :D
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12:01<supermop>they still think of cad as a fancy version of a drawing board with drafting film - they only consider it a medium for 2d abstractions of 3d forms - not something where 3d is possible or desirable
12:01<V453000>XD yes
12:03<supermop>then there are the guys like 10-15 years older than me, who are fast at cad and understand 3d, but their workflow is still to have 2d and 3d completely separate
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12:04<supermop>they think 3d is only for fancy presentations and concepts, and that all development of the building is actually done in cad in 2d
12:04<supermop>better when you work on a big project for a government agency, and the government says - if you want to build our building, you have to use BIM
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12:08<V453000>exactly what I was refering to
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12:19<supermop>frustratingly not cheap to 3d print large quantities of miniature breakwater tetrapods
12:24<@Alberth>a few years back, 3d printing didn't even exist :)
12:25<@Alberth>unless you had a few zillions, that is
12:30<supermop>i did it once in architecture school - took like 16 hours
12:30<supermop>and the resolution was pretty bad
12:31<supermop>i even had to pay the school for the printer time
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12:36<@Alberth>you were the sole owner of a 3d printer for a whole 16 hours thus :)
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13:19<Wolf01>meh, 90€ of vip points on the lego shop and I don't even need a single set :(
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13:37<@Rubidium>Wolf01: that really sounds like
13:44<Wolf01>Nah, it's me, I'm too fast on buying new stuff as soon it is available
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14:32<andythenorth>is cat?
14:33<degasus>why is "creating industries" so slow on big maps?
14:34<degasus>perf says eg 4.5% for DistanceManhattan, shouldn't this be inlined?
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14:35<@Alberth>cat is! :)
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16:14<Julien12150>that's a lot of users
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 17 00:00:45 2016