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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-18

---Logopened Fri Mar 18 00:00:47 2016
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05:42<andythenorth>where is cat?
05:49*Wolf01 points in a random direction
06:23<Wolf01>meh, I hate positioning stations in factorio... track length, train length and inserter positions are inconsistent, if you move the station of 1 tile horizontally you end up with some offset
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06:26<monsted>Wolf01: yeah, it's a bit of a mess. also, horizontal and vertical trains are different lengths
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06:28<andythenorth>“/topic Factorio, cats, sometimes OpenTTD”
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06:36<monsted>i'd love to see a mix of openttd and factorio
06:36<monsted>build factorio bases, link them with openttd :)
06:36<monsted>(of course they could just massively improve factorio trains...)
06:47<V453000>trains will get many improvements in 0.13
06:49<andythenorth>those slackjaws, why are they sitting around not improving trains Right Now
06:50*andythenorth considers if port-type industries could actually communicate with Factorio over network
06:51<V453000>they actually are doing that Right Now :P
06:53<Wolf01>I'm waiting for that, the autorail finally :D
06:54<Wolf01>The blueprint book also it will be there?
06:54<V453000>shitload of stuff
06:54<V453000>also some unannounced yet :P
06:54<andythenorth>RoadTypes? o_O
06:54<andythenorth>Subways? o_O
06:55<Wolf01>the inserter spidertron
06:55<andythenorth>so is OpenTTD officially beaten then?
06:55<andythenorth>has Factorio won yet?
06:58<Wolf01>start doing FIRS for factorio
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08:44<Eddi|zuHause>seems legit.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>totally realistic
08:44<Wolf01>yes, why not
08:44<andythenorth>shunting is implemented already? :o
08:44<andythenorth>OpenTTD is definitely dead
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>openttd would have thrown a "disconnected train" and exited
08:46<Wolf01>I still can't understand how in OTTD a train could disconnect... I can figure it out in LoMo and in Factorio as you can place and drag them on the tracks
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>original TT happily did that if you loaded a game into scenario editor
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>the engine would drive off, leaving the wagons behind
08:48<Wolf01>\o/ shunting, just remove the assert
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>"disconnected train" usually comes up if you mess with movement code, like trying to implement bridgeheads
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>particularly when reversing the train
08:50<Wolf01>because trains shouldn't reverse, only change direction
08:51<Wolf01>the quantum engine always bothered me, that's why I often use dual headed engines
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>that still makes the train technically turn around :p
08:52<V453000>which doesn't happen in factorio :P
08:53<Wolf01>that's why I make dual headed trains in factorio
08:53<Wolf01>(reversing loops are too big)
08:53<V453000>I think both approaches are nice
08:53<V453000>reversing trains are awesome because yeah, no loops
08:54<V453000>but the reversed engines do not give any power, so you are carrying half of the engines as dead weight
08:54<Wolf01>the TT behavior mean you have an entire switching yard and a turntable somewhere in a 5th-dimension
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08:59<Eddi|zuHause>-+- <-- i love how that article starts with "wait hear me out. instead of <buzzword> we do <buzzword> <buzzword> <buzzwordbuzzword>"... i haven't read on after that :p
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09:16<frosch123>I see, i guess fff are a saturday thing for me
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Furby Free Fridays?
09:19<andythenorth>remind me again why I don’t make my newgrf compiles into a framework
09:20<andythenorth>I could offer something that allows you to “create a prototype newgrf in literally minutes"
09:20<frosch123>V's vriday vacts
09:20<V453000>yo andythenorth why the fuck don't you make your newgrfs compiles into -wtf is a framework-
09:20<V453000>sup frog
09:20<andythenorth>all these shitty frameworks seem to assume the problem is that writing code takes a long time
09:21<andythenorth>what takes a really long time is avoiding writing code
09:21<frosch123>Didn't you have a drawing framework as well?
09:21<V453000>yes because most people don't get to the point of optimizing andythenorth, and just write it down to make it work at least somehow
09:21<V453000>my approach when coding shit for openttd
09:22<andythenorth>frosch123: I have a drawing library
09:22<andythenorth>is that a framework?
09:22<V453000>then frosch writes something that stores values and loads them later with vehicles, and I don't have a clue what it does :>
09:22<andythenorth>so FIRS 2 is done
09:22<andythenorth>but I might change it
09:23<V453000>does it have easter eggs or april fools surprise for seasonal value?
09:24<frosch123>V throws my shit at sylf to turn it into something real
09:24<frosch123>V453000: durian is wtf of the week
09:25<V453000>yeah that is pretty much how yeti production mechanism is happening frosch123 :D
09:25<frosch123>Is a fruit
09:25<frosch123>I thought it was just some internet hype
09:26<V453000>no clue
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09:26<frosch123>But in this city it is in fact everywhere
09:26<andythenorth>spikey fruit :)
09:28<V453000>ah yes was in plants vs zombies 2 XD
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09:30<frosch123>Here you can get almost everything with durian flavour
09:31<frosch123>Chocolate, drinks, ... There is even a durian shaped opera house
09:33<andythenorth>is it nice?
09:33<andythenorth>seems to be quite varied opinions
09:38<frosch123>Haha, the chocolate has an additionalplastic wrapper around it
09:38<frosch123>I just removed it
09:38<frosch123>It smells terrible
09:39<frosch123>The taste is not as bad
09:40<frosch123>But not great either
09:40<frosch123>It must be a tourist joke or so
09:41<Wolf01>iirc, they discourage to eat that fruit in public because of the smell
09:42<frosch123>Yes, i made a photo of a sign: no smoking allowed, no durians allowed
09:44<_dp_>Hi, I'm setting town text with DoCommandP call, but how do I add some color to text?
09:44<_dp_>DoCommandP(0, town->index, 0, CMD_TOWN_SET_TEXT, nullptr, "some text");
09:44<_dp_>I think I even know the answer, but don't want to believe it.... %)
09:49<frosch123>You can try the scc_encoded
09:50<frosch123>If that is not allowed then colour codes are not allowed either
09:50<_dp_>scc_encoded needs a gs string id as far as I can tell
09:51<frosch123>I cannot remember
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09:52<frosch123>Anyway in command.cpp there are some flags, which define which control codes are allowed in the custom string of the individual commands
09:53<_dp_>yeah, it has CMD_STR_CTRL, but that only means it allows SCC_ENCODED, nothing else
09:53<frosch123>Not allowed codes are either removed or the command is rejected
09:53<_dp_>replaced with ? actually
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09:59<_dp_>basically, how I understand it, I need a gs with language file with smth like STR_JUST_STRING to be able to use SCC_ENCODED
09:59<_dp_>and all that just for simple color %)
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10:04<_dp_>oh, wait, can't use just_string it still won't allow control codes, need to have all colors in gs language
10:04<_dp_>which probably means I'll run into 20 params GS bullshit
10:10<_dp_>would be much better if you'll just allow more control codes with CMD_STR_CTRL
10:11<_dp_>it even says "Allow the special control codes." in comment, not "code" ;)
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10:30<_dp_>hm, I can add 2**smth strings to reduce number of parameters...
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11:17<V453000>sup human
11:19<Wolf01>So, I purchased a spaceship model to cut, build, glue, paint... the problem is that I don't want to ruin it. I already made a mecha but I didn't use glue/paint and I'll keep it so forever, but the spaceship really needs some more work :(
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11:23<andythenorth>Wolf01: buy another one to practice on? o_O
11:24<Wolf01>it would be cool, but it will cost twice or more now that I'm back at home :P
11:25<@Alberth>sounds like you already know your holiday destination for next year :p
11:25<@Alberth>hi hi
11:27<Wolf01>eheh, maybe
11:28<Wolf01> too bad I only found the static model (for about 55€, the tranbsformable one was like 890€)
11:31<Wolf01> unpainted is a bit... meh :(
11:32<@Alberth>painting it must also be worth it :)
11:35<Wolf01>I'm already satisfied with my lego moc:
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11:37<@Alberth>can also use a little paint :p
11:38<Wolf01>nah, I'm a lego purist, I don't paint or cut lego pieces.... but I must say that this one is wonderful
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12:24<_johannes>is it ok if my external railnet graph creator uses C++11 ?
12:25<_johannes>(the parts I'd change *inside* openttd would be C++03 conform, of course)
12:28<@Alberth>if it's a separate program, you can use any language you like, I think
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12:28<@Alberth>c++ wouldn't be my first choice :)
12:28<@Alberth>hi hi andy
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12:28<hewimp>Anyone here ?
12:28<@Alberth>/me gives andy a large fish bot
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12:28<@Alberth>just in case :)
12:29<hewimp>Anyone having problems Join game after it gets 4.25 MB ?
12:29<@Alberth>hewimp: not sure, why do you want to know?
12:29<hewimp>tryed new maps every time get above 4.25 MB can not seem tro Join
12:30<@Alberth>it's probably a lot bigger, such sizes are compressed data
12:30<_johannes>Alberth: cool, thanks
12:30<@Alberth>server doesn't stop while joining?
12:30<hewimp>tryed newr versions same problem
12:30<hewimp>then they cant join
12:31<hewimp>starts to join
12:31<hewimp>just dose not finsh
12:31<hewimp>Kick out with a message
12:31<@Alberth>connection dies ?
12:31<hewimp>Works fine till hits over 4.35 NB
12:32<@Alberth>and message says???
12:32<hewimp>did not write it down
12:32<@Alberth>4.3 MB looks a bit big, imho
12:32<hewimp>its 4K 4 K map
12:33<hewimp>big Huge
12:33<@Alberth>yeah, too big :p
12:33<hewimp>4.26 MB
12:33<@Alberth>no idea why you'd want that tbh
12:33<hewimp>took to long to Join
12:33<hewimp>kick you out
12:33<@Alberth>it's big enough that you can have 16 players, and everybody can have his own big field
12:33<hewimp>we wanted try a Huge map :)
12:34<@Alberth>without the need to ever meet each other
12:34<hewimp>just 2 of us we run out
12:34<hewimp>I see 4 K maps
12:35<@Alberth> well, this is the page with most information
12:35<hewimp>thanks i check it out
12:35<@Alberth>yeah, well, people just select MAX everything without thinking
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>just also MAX the timeouts :p
12:37<@Alberth>it may also be your ISP not wanting to download lots of data from a "weird" port
12:37<@Alberth>so they slow it down to a crawl at some point
12:38<@Alberth>perhaps read your ISP policy on hosting servers
12:39<hewimp>no idea how to change timeouts
12:39<hewimp>its on default i belive
12:39<@Alberth>stop server, edit openttd.cfg, start server
12:40<hewimp>hoe do you edit Openttd.cfg ?
12:40<hewimp>how ?
12:40<@Alberth>any ascii editor will do
12:40<@Alberth>notepad eg
12:40<@Alberth>word pad
12:41<@Alberth>/me is not very good at listing ascii editors at windows
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12:41<@Alberth>openttd.cfg is just plain text
12:41<hewimp>ok now i find it and look at what it says ?
12:42<@Alberth>variables are listed at the wiki
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13:03<_dp_>is it possible to use raw strings with GSText?
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13:03<_dp_>looks like it accepts string parameters, but don't see any way of actually using them
13:04<_dp_>RAW_STRING is not allowed in gamescript...
13:12<@Alberth>the strings are stored in savegames etc, which may be a bit difficult
13:15<_dp_>there is code to store raw_strings and it looks fine, just can't find any way to use it %)
13:16<@Alberth>in my experience, the save game stores string index number in the lang file
13:21<_dp_>it uses some encoding that can both reference strings by id and store raw strings
13:23<_dp_>didn't check, but I bet {RAW_STRING} will work just fine if it didn't come from gs
13:23<_dp_>there is just explicit check to skip it if string came from gs
13:23<_dp_>even though gs can encode raw strings
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13:29<@Alberth>it was probably considered and rejected for some reason
13:31<_dp_>looks more like a bug to me since there is bunch of unused code then
13:32<_dp_>oh, and it will probably break everything since it passes parameter but doesn't consume it...
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13:40<_dp_>limiting everything to gs scope is at least logical, not that I like it
13:40<_dp_>but disabling raw_string fixes nothing as far as I can tell
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13:42<_dp_>in fact, it does exactly the opposite as far as I can tell
13:43<_dp_>now it can lead to some invalid strings...
13:43<_dp_>gotta test that though...
13:44<@Alberth>what's the usecase for a raw string?
13:44<@Alberth>just a regular string also works, and it remains translatable
13:44<andythenorth>also, and completely unrelated
13:45<andythenorth>could we add smart quote detection? :P
13:45<_dp_>idk, show random password?
13:46<@Alberth>quotes are smart?
13:47<_dp_>and I'm just looking for a way to avoid that 20 params limit, so trying to understand how everything works)
13:48<andythenorth>if a quote mark ‘ or “ is the first of a pair, flip the sprite
13:49<@Alberth>more than 20 parameters means you have too much information to display
13:49<@Alberth>people are not going to read 20 numbers
13:49<_dp_>no, because parameters are used by every little thing
13:50<_dp_>if you add color to numbers can do only 10
13:53<_dp_>btw, I can show any amount of numbers if I don't color them, coz passing just one plain raw string also works ;)
13:53<@Alberth>I think 10 is already too much
13:53<_dp_>ah, and without line breaks... just one freaking line of numbers %)
13:53<@Alberth>people can't handle that many things at the same time
13:54<_dp_>it's possible to have 10 cargos in cb
13:54<_dp_>btw, you also need cargo name, makes it 6...
13:56<_dp_>some existing scripts even change message format when they hit 20 params, I thought it's a bug when I first saw it
13:59<supermop>hmm should i start hosting a game from my work computer?
13:59<supermop>or wait until 4th week of new job for that
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14:01<_dp_>also, it's quite hard to to stuff without using 1-2 more params per cargo for substring ids
14:01<_dp_>so that limit of 20 is being used up after 4-5 cargos
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14:02<_dp_>which, basically, means 5 numbers too
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14:08<_dp_>so if that really was 20 numbers limit that would be fine by me
14:08<_dp_>but as things are now you can hit it even if don't show any numbers at all
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14:12<_dp_>in fact, it's much easier to just show number then try to make it better for players
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14:13<_dp_>since number takes just one parameter and fancy formatting usually takes more :p
14:17<_dp_>oh snap, I think I found a way to do what I want, just need to generate about 500 strings %))
14:18<_dp_>basically, move information from parameters to string id xD
14:22<supermop>ship pathfinder guy on forum makes sense
14:23<supermop>or idk if what he is doing makes sense, but it makes sense to do something different with ships at least
14:25<supermop>andythenorth: could you have some kind of mask that does shoddy quick shading on sprites post- flip?
14:25<supermop>like every sprite is unshaded
14:25<supermop>and then a mask is dark on left half, clear on right?
14:25<andythenorth>you could right a PIL script that detects edge pixels, and shades them algorithmically
14:26<andythenorth>right / write /s
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14:38<supermop>i wonder, what, if anything, that would help or make more efficient
14:38<supermop>better to just start a convention of no shading
14:39*andythenorth has been shading less
14:44<supermop>i should give up on the game and just build little lego monorails encircling potted plants on my window sill
14:45<supermop>make a little metabolist arcology of cacti
14:45<supermop>andythenorth: have you seen videos of that alweg style straddle-beam lego monorail?
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14:48<supermop>probably have enough bit in my parents basement to cobble one of those together
14:49<supermop>how many bumps wide is lego train loading gauge? does it only seat guys one across?
14:52<andythenorth>6 stud baseplate
14:52<andythenorth>you can stagger seats and use windows with recesses
14:53<andythenorth>so you can fit 2 minifigs across, but no corridor
14:54<supermop>are cars tall enough for straphangers?
14:54<supermop>i never had the trains growing up
14:54<andythenorth>depends how you build them
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14:57<sim-al2>I don't recall the package sets being particularly tall, looking at the box pictures they were often just a bit taller than a minifigure (enough room to stand, but not much more)
14:59<supermop>there is some tram at the store near here that is tall enough for them to stand in
14:59<supermop>does not actually run on rails though
15:00<andythenorth>if it’s the orange one, it has tiny train wheels
15:00<supermop>i recall the planes were like the old space shuttle - could only sit down in
15:03<supermop>andythenorth: yeah the orange one - i couldn't see the wheels on the box and it didn't look like it came with track so i assumed it would have those smooth tires, like the old planes or race cars
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15:03<andythenorth>if it’s like the older blue one, it has flanged wheels, unpowered
15:03<andythenorth>some people have figured out how to power them
15:03<andythenorth>I have a blue one to sell :P
15:06<supermop>overhead lego trolley wire?
15:06<hewimp>happen to know how to add new mods new game without making new game every time ?
15:07<hewimp>so if i find mod i like can add to existing map .
15:08<sim-al2>The safe way would be to save the heightmap
15:08<hewimp>so save the game as heightmap ?
15:13<hewimp>i do not see any heightmap save can i create one from game ?
15:14<sim-al2>I suppose you want to keep the cities and other stuff that already exist right?
15:15<hewimp>City do not matter
15:15<sim-al2>The reason why I say "Safe way" is that adding newGRFs to an already running game in the past caused so many problems that it was disabled
15:15<hewimp>its the senaro i made
15:15<hewimp>Drew a Map wanted to add Mods has 0 atm
15:16<sim-al2>With the scenario editor?
15:16<hewimp>can play it
15:16<hewimp>just wanted to add Mods
15:16<hewimp>Drew the Falcon so wanted to keep it
15:17<sim-al2>In the scenario editor, there's an option to save the map as a heightmap, and then you can reimport it
15:17<sim-al2>(after you change the newGRFS)
15:19<hewimp>so add Grf and Inport a Map ?
15:23<sim-al2>The dangerous way (as far as possibly causing all kinds of interesting things to happen) is to enable the scenario developer tools:
15:24<sim-al2>That will let you change newGRFS in an existing game, but of course that carries the risk of causing trouble
15:32<hewimp>Sweet thanks
15:33<hewimp>can even resize the map if i want
15:35<andythenorth>stuff _will_ break if you add/remove newgrs
15:35<andythenorth>newgrfs *
15:35*andythenorth does it all the time
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15:38<supermop>i should build a drinks trolley that is a trolley
15:38<supermop>i wonder if my landlord will be adverse to me installing a 1-foot gauge tramway in my apartment floor
15:39<supermop>or if i can install said tramway without arousing suspiscion
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15:54<V453000>Day9 playing factorio :0
16:00<V453000>shit is getting some attention :)
16:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: just 25 tiles distance, too close?
16:33<andythenorth>I need to write an algorithm that automotically sets these conflicting types per economy
16:33<andythenorth>‘algorithm’ :P
16:33*andythenorth has never written an algorithm in his life
16:34<andythenorth>what even is an algorithm?
16:34<@Alberth>it's just a receipe to solve a problem
16:35*andythenorth has been writing code for 30 years :P
16:35<andythenorth>does that count?
16:35<@Alberth>if it ever solved a problem, sure :)
16:36<@Alberth>in general though, people publish it as a stand-alone solution to a problem , and they derive properties like speed and scalability
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16:37<@Alberth>and usually the problem is well-defined and occurs often
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16:43<@Rubidium>andythenorth: have you ever made a flow chart of something?
16:43<andythenorth>often enough
16:44<@Rubidium>so, you've made algorithms. After all, a flow chart is a step-by-step "instruction" for doing something as is an algorithm.
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17:03<andythenorth>did V453000 make that?
17:03<supermop>other questions aside, why does this funicular have overhead electrification?
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17:17<supermop_>i seem to have quit?
17:20<sim-al2>I assume they are using the traction motors to move the car, but with the benefit of being more or less balanced
17:28<supermop_>seems like a lot of expense to hang wires just to power the lights
17:29<sim-al2>Dual pantographs too, I'm sure it's either for the track brakes or traction motors
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17:32<supermop_>yeah, saw that one - first funicular level crossing i've seen
17:33<supermop_>foreground line seems to missing its cable
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17:34<sim-al2>Yeah, I think the cables are tethered to the car though, check the near car, there's a cable on the far side but not on the camera side
17:34<sim-al2>Like this, cable doesn't appear behind the car:
17:37<sim-al2>Check this out, cable is definetly tethered to the car end:
17:37<sim-al2>The cable line is technically two different lines, it might have been out of service at the time of that photograph
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17:37<sim-al2>*one might have been
17:39<sim-al2>Hmm, 200V overhead though...
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17:43<sim-al2>The cars have full electric lights including headlights, and it does have a grade crossing, so I guess that's why it's an overhead collector. Some have automated announcments and other modern stuff too
17:44<sim-al2>Apparently, there was a seperate "communication line", and so the electric overhead is actually offset
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17:51<supermop_>well i've certainly wasted plenty of time at work today reading about odd bits of transit infrastructure around osaka
17:52<sim-al2>Did you read about the Kobe Portliner?
17:54<sim-al2>Rubber-tire transit systems seem more popular in Japan as "real" transit, while outside of East/Southeast Asia they are basically just airport people movers (I'm excluding the French rubber tire metros here, because of major differences)
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17:56<supermop_>mexico df metro is all rubber tired
17:56<supermop_>and pretty much a "real" metro
17:56<sim-al2>Yeah, Montreal too
17:56<sim-al2>And a bunch of French cities
17:57<supermop_>got stuck on these after reading about some linear motor metro lines in osaka
17:57<sim-al2>For the most part, they have rails for guidance and protection against blowouts, while the transit stuff are more bus like
17:57<sim-al2>Wait, they've got linear motor stuff too?
17:58<supermop_>which i got to by wodering if it would be easier to make a tiny toy monorail with a linear motor
17:58<supermop_>similar to bombardier art systems
17:59<sim-al2>Here's the portliner gear:
18:00<sim-al2>I mean, there's certainly advantages, like better traction and braking, and easier to have good riding characteristics, but those tires can't be cheap (and have much more friction)
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18:04<sim-al2>I know the Paris system was developed to reduce noise on the above-ground lines, but they have higher running costs than the regular system
18:04<supermop_>in mexico i don't know the reason,
18:05<supermop_>but they don't have much ice there ever despite the high elevation
18:05<sim-al2>Wow, the Portliner has a three-phase third rail system
18:05<sim-al2>*well, 5th rail
18:05<supermop_>i think it is a function of the time it was built
18:06<supermop_>hmm hour to kill until dinner reservation,
18:06<supermop_>last one in the office
18:06<supermop_>but too hungry for beer
18:06<sim-al2>You can see the rails on the right here:
18:07<sim-al2>Apparently it's only 600 volts, but still, I've never read about a three-phase system that doesn't use overhead
18:07<supermop_>interesting center shunt there
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18:08<sim-al2>The coupler, or the track?
18:09<supermop_>lay-up track
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18:12<sim-al2>Yeah, I assume it's for storage, as the line isn't really long enough for turn-back schedules
18:14<supermop_>ok enough reading about trains for now, going to go get a beer and snack
18:14<supermop_>still need to build a tramway in my apartment
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20:28<drac_boy>noone else here getting wet this week?? heh :)
20:29<Supercheese>it snowed here two days ago, and we had a wicked lightning storm a few before that
20:29<Supercheese>although it's snowed here in May before sooo
20:29<Supercheese>not immensely surprising
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20:32<drac_boy>heh yeah weather can do weird thing once in a rare awhile..
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20:32<drac_boy>supercheese actually there was one photo from cheyenne in usa .. it was of a Big Boy restarting its train while the snow was coming down hard almost horizontally .. the caption actually said that this "was an april fools blizzard that had shut down the highways but merely slowed down rail operations" ...!
20:33<drac_boy>talk about roads not moving to anywhere at all :)
20:33<Supercheese>Snow? Sure, whatever:
20:34<drac_boy>heh these poor engineers seem to be almost blind :)
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20:42<drac_boy>so anyhow how you doing supercheese
20:43<Supercheese>very happy, especially now that I've ordered take out for dinner from my favorite restaurant in town
20:43<Supercheese>best BBQ ribs ever
20:51<Supercheese>ribs and beer, dinner of champions
20:52<drac_boy>anyway going read a bit then going to sleep...see you another time? :)
20:53<Supercheese>sounds like a plan
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 19 00:00:39 2016