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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-23

---Logopened Wed Mar 23 00:00:54 2016
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03:17<Wolf01>o/
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06:12<andythenorth>o/
06:13<Wolf01>o/
06:18<V453000>watup
06:18<andythenorth>is cat
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09:40<supermop>hi
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11:25<supermop>exciting channel
11:28<V453000>u wot m8
11:33<supermop>designing art nouveau towel hooks here
11:34<supermop>actually find the idea of designing bathroom hardware to be pretty great, just not art nouveau
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>what's nouveau about art nouveau?
11:36<supermop>nothing anymore
11:36<supermop>its about 120 years old
11:37<supermop>but every couple decades it comes back in fashion among people who are into frilly traditional styles
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>just make it Bauhaus style. pure, simple, minimalistic, designed for mass production
11:38<supermop>tbh if i was doing hooks from the late 19th -early 20th C I'd rather be doing vienna secessionist
11:39<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i went to a bauhaus model architecture school and worked for Dieter Rams' company for a few years - honest modernism and german functionalism are the ways of my heart
11:39<supermop>but that's not the assignment/design brief from the manufacturer in this case
11:40<supermop>unfortunately
11:40<supermop>i am starting by thinking of the tooling though
11:40<supermop>i want everything possible to be possible to be turned on a lathe, and not require complex shaped casting
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>so art nouveau is just loads of wiggly intertwined lines?
11:41<supermop>yes, but simplified organic
11:41<V453000>put slugs and turtles
11:41<V453000>can't go wrong
11:41<supermop>not as literally plant shaped as earlier 19th century styles
11:42<supermop>basically old paris metro stations, thonet chairs etc
11:44<supermop>http://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2015/9/23/7/c/4/7c4b5198-61f1-11e5-9a50-cd06c473c8db.jpg
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12:17<@Alberth>hi hi
12:17<Wolf01>V, I just noticed there's something disturbing in the rail research icon... let's see if you spot it too
12:17<Wolf01>hi Alberth, andy
12:18<andythenorth>so the FIRS 2 changelog was written 6 months ago, and a lot more has changed since then
12:18<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
12:19<@Alberth>nasty changelog not updating itself
12:19<andythenorth>is the ‘features’, ‘fixes’, ‘codechanges’ format required for a major version release?
12:19*andythenorth wonders about using a different heading structure
12:19<@Alberth>the author of a newgrf makes that decision :)
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12:20<Wolf01>so you released it finally?
12:20<andythenorth>not quite
12:20<@Alberth>but it avoids having to think about it :p
12:20<andythenorth>there are still 2 potential features to go in, but I think they’ll wait for 2.1
12:20*andythenorth got sick
12:20<Wolf01>we have to wait for 1st of april?
12:20<@Alberth>:(
12:20<andythenorth>I might do an RC this weekend
12:20<andythenorth>but I can’t put it on bananas
12:20<andythenorth>unless I change grfid
12:21<Wolf01>I really think that 1.x and 2.x should be 2 different grfs
12:21<andythenorth>I am considering it
12:21<andythenorth>what are the downsides?
12:21<Wolf01>I had a nasty problem with nurails which changed the position of lot of parameters
12:22<@Alberth>the list of newgrfs that you made gets longer?
12:22<Wolf01>nothing worked well until I reset the parameters to default
12:22<Wolf01>*nutracks or what it wsa
12:22<Wolf01>was
12:23<Wolf01>so, if you changed the parameters, and you did, or you find a way to update them too, or make a different version please :D
12:23<andythenorth>parameters have changed
12:24<andythenorth>if I release separate grfs, do I have to support v1 also?
12:24<@Alberth>sure "use v2 instead"
12:25<Wolf01>you can let it die, or just bugfix it every now and then
12:25<@Alberth>nah, it only has hidden features :)
12:26<andythenorth>hmm
12:26<andythenorth>there’s probably some reason it’s a bad idea
12:27<@Alberth>yeah, but not changing grfid is also a bad idea?
12:27<@Alberth>(don't know, tbh)
12:28<@Alberth>hmm, maybe people getting confused between versions?
12:28<Wolf01>I just reported a bad behavior about that, I'm not saying it's a bug, but it looks like a "my game don't work anymore because I removed a grf"
12:31<@Alberth>shouldn't the grf have reported "not compatible" ?
12:32<Wolf01>it was a parameters problem, the grf didn't have any problem by itself
12:33<andythenorth>planetmaker might have an opinion
12:33<Wolf01>and the problem showed on new game, as the old save used the old version
12:34<Wolf01>the new game used the new version with old parameters
12:34<Wolf01>because I updated the preset and it didn't warn about the misconfiguration
12:36<Wolf01>so I would do either: 1) clean parameters on grf update 2) if the new grf version doesn't have backwards compatibility use a different grfid
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12:37<@Alberth>hmm, tricky
12:38<Wolf01>1 is bad for players, 2 is bad for andy
12:44<argoneus>good morning train friends
12:44<Wolf01>"morning"
12:45<andythenorth>I don’t mind having 2 grfs in the wild
12:45<andythenorth>I just know that I was yelled at quite a lot about never changing grfids any more
12:46<Wolf01>mmmh, desura is dead, I still have like 30 payed games I'll never be able to play
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think i made a big mistake replying to Leanden...
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he matured in the past few years?
12:50<Wolf01>at least you didn't insult him
12:50<V453000>Wolf01: rail research icon?
12:50<V453000>what there
12:52<@Alberth>leanden currently mostly seems to get lost in adding real-life considerations
12:52<Wolf01>the inserter is on the wrong side of the belt, how it's supposed to load the train? also the chests on the other side are used only by the bots
12:52<@Alberth>euhm, research? :p
12:52<V453000>wait rail research has inserter in it?
12:53<V453000>ah logistics icon
12:53<Wolf01>sorry, logistics
12:53<V453000>I don't think that is a problem at all
12:53<V453000>it is an icon to demonstrate what you get
12:53<V453000>the armor doesn't look very useful at that point either :P
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12:54<@Alberth>no amoured vans?
12:54<V453000>mods have some, base game not
12:54<V453000>no real point
12:55<andythenorth>firstorio
12:55<V453000>if enemies attack your trains, you probably have bigger problems :D
12:55<andythenorth>someone should port it
12:55<V453000>XD
12:55<V453000>andythenorth: the mods in factorio have like 3 times the amount of products and shit that FIRS has in all economies combined probably
12:55<V453000>it is really insane
12:56<andythenorth>FIRS is minimalist really
12:56<andythenorth>like barely anything in it
12:58<V453000>yeah no :P
12:58<V453000>YETI is minimalist!
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13:02<V453000>hm
13:02<V453000>I wonder how would the game work if you had 2 types of industries only
13:02<V453000>1 primary
13:02<V453000>1 producing goods
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13:10<Wolf01>what would use up the goods? cities?
13:13<V453000>yea
13:14<V453000>the trick would be, the secondary industry would only be able to produce X amount of resource per month
13:15<V453000>so you would have to create a kind of multipoint network, but totally up to you what do you connect with what
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14:25<andythenorth>Alberth: any good? http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
14:28<@Alberth>:O
14:29<@Alberth>1.4.4 had a vehicle factory?
14:30<andythenorth>not a good one
14:30<andythenorth>but yes
14:30<@Alberth>ah, fair enough
14:30<@Alberth>all the "new cargo type" seems a bit repetitive
14:30<andythenorth>yeah
14:30<@Alberth>but everything in one line isn't nice either
14:31<andythenorth>yeah
14:31<andythenorth>I picked the lesser of two evils
14:31*andythenorth has an idea
14:31<@Alberth>maybe drop "improved" for cargoes, industries, economies?
14:32<andythenorth>needs something to indicate that these are the changes, rather than the list of cargos / industries etc
14:32<@Alberth>I'd but the short one together I think
14:33<@Alberth>*put
14:33<andythenorth>short one?
14:33<@Alberth>now you have a mix, and with each entry I have to see how long it is :)
14:34<@Alberth>Dairies 1 line, Dredging 3 lines, Food processing 1 line
14:34*andythenorth pushes a change
14:35<@Alberth>Furniture Factory: 'crates' not 't' in extra text string for <-- doesn't sound like improved industry :)
14:35<andythenorth>waits for compile farm
14:35<andythenorth>‘improved by removal of bug’ :P
14:35<andythenorth>maybe some word other than improved
14:36<@Alberth>I'd move it to general improvements or so
14:36<@Alberth>First entry 'Extreme' economy looks wrong
14:36<@Alberth>it's not a nice economy
14:37<andythenorth>ha
14:37<andythenorth>better name?
14:37<@Alberth>added Fish chain, it's important for South West UK, which was the inspiration for this economy
14:37<@Alberth>reworded :)
14:38<@Alberth>I was thinking better place for the extreme economy, somewhere down the end of economies :)
14:38<andythenorth>yes
14:38<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/changelog.html
14:38<andythenorth>groups the new cargo types
14:39<@Alberth>I like the new descriptions of the economies, bit of background
14:39<@Alberth>I like the new cargo types like that
14:40<@Alberth>tempted to add wikipedia links :p
14:40<andythenorth>:P
14:40<andythenorth>I should group the new industries also?
14:41<@Alberth>I think so yeah
14:41<andythenorth>I kind of like the alphabetised list, but eh
14:41<@Alberth>one for new industries, and one for improved layout/graphics, imho
14:41<@Alberth>you can have alphabetized within the sub-list :D
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14:43<@Alberth>it seperates the entries you don't have to say much about from the ones with a longer story
14:43<@Alberth>which I think is nice for reading
14:44<@Alberth>"alphabetise the order of economies in parameter menu and docs" haha :)
14:44<@Alberth>hmm, can't change the order then :)
14:45<andythenorth>it’s incorrect
14:45<@Alberth>docs had some broken html, fixed <-- - ", fixed" ?
14:45<andythenorth>I read the wrong commit for changelog about economy order :P
14:45<andythenorth>fixed that
14:45<andythenorth>I’ve removed ‘, fixed’ from the html note
14:47<@Alberth>"speedup compile times" is not a code change :p but not a big problem, and it avoids another category
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14:48<@Alberth>hmm, if firs2 is going to be new, should 1.4.4 exist at the same page???
14:48<@Alberth>want to mention what the new default economy is now?
14:50<andythenorth>we need a bigger faster compile farm :(
14:50<@Alberth>I would put the basic economies first, then the hot country, and finally the extreme economy
14:50<andythenorth>yes
14:50<@Alberth>nah, have some tea while you wait :)
14:50<andythenorth>that is the order in game
14:51<andythenorth>btw, the compile time speed up was due to refactoring multiple bits of inefficient code
14:51<andythenorth>so I need to decide on grfid
14:51*andythenorth considers a poll
14:52<@Alberth>doesn't the new enhanced/gung ho mechanism need a few lines?
14:52<andythenorth>in the “General Improvements” section
14:52<andythenorth>but easily missed I think
14:52<@Alberth>how are you going to do a bugfix for firs1 ever if you keep the same grfid?
14:53<andythenorth>not possible
14:53<andythenorth>due to bananas
14:53<@Alberth>added parameters for adjusting 'Enhanced' and 'Gung-Ho' production behaviour at industries <-- that just mentions it, not that you can tweak it entirely :)
14:54<andythenorth>maybe it needs a heading and sub-list
14:54<@Alberth>thus same grfid == death of firs1
14:54<@Alberth>right?
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14:54<andythenorth>yes
14:54<andythenorth>that was my original intention
14:55<andythenorth>but it breaks availability of FIRS for those who can’t or don’t update to OpenTTD 1.6.0
14:55<@Alberth>ok, not judging, just making consequences clear
14:55<andythenorth>I can’t remember the reasons why changing grfid became a ‘no no no'
14:55<@Alberth>that happened before with firs didn't it?
14:55<andythenorth>it did
14:56<andythenorth>there was definitely hostility to changing grfid, but I don’t recall from whom or why :)
14:56<@Alberth>as I know it, it was standard practice as you could not express compatibility
14:56<@Alberth>obviously, it would break save games
14:57<andythenorth>maybe the hostility was against the _general_ practice
14:57<@Alberth>at least, it probably predates that change
14:57<andythenorth>and not the specific valid cases
14:58<@Alberth>but now you have action 14 iirc to say what the requirements are
14:58<@Alberth>so less need to change newgrfid
14:58<@Alberth>less chance to cause conflicts, perhaps
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14:59<@Alberth>but idk, tbh
15:00<@Alberth>what happens with all the derived firses?
15:01<@Alberth>not sure how relevant that is though
15:02<@Alberth>but generally, lots of new goodies :)
15:04<andythenorth>in the absence of any wiser counsel than your me, I will just change grfid now :D
15:16<andythenorth>you or me *
15:16*andythenorth can’t type
15:19<@Alberth>that gives good chances on changing the grfid :D
15:20<@Alberth>and it does look like the most future proof solution to me
15:20<@Alberth>except now you have to add "old" firs as a conflicting newgrf :p
15:20<@Alberth>and technically, you have yo update the "old" firs too, the other way around :D
15:25<andythenorth>yeah :(
15:25<andythenorth>I wonder if I created a v1 branch
15:25<@Alberth>latter isn't really needed, depending on how 'dead' you consider firs 1
15:26<@Alberth>in the end it might be easier to fork to a new firs2 repo?
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15:32<andythenorth>or make a FIRS 1 repo if maintenance is needed
15:32<andythenorth>hmm
15:32<andythenorth>I only need a one-way conflict check against FIRS 1 from FIRS 2
15:38<@Alberth>good point
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15:50<andythenorth>dunno how these checks work :)
15:50*andythenorth learns by doing
15:52<andythenorth>bah
15:52<andythenorth>crashed OpenTTD
15:53<andythenorth>and my check doesn’t work
16:03<andythenorth>FIRS 1 grfid is “\F1%\00\05”
16:04<andythenorth>check needs to be something like
16:04<andythenorth>INCOMPATIBLE_GRF("F1\00\05", "FIRS v1")
16:11<@Alberth>\f1\25\00\05 ?
16:12<@Alberth>'%' -> 37 -> 0x25
16:16<andythenorth>let’s see
16:22<andythenorth>seems to work :D
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16:26<@Alberth>readability fails a bit :)
16:27<andythenorth>it’s not a beautiful error message
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16:37<andythenorth>eh well maybe I should tag an RC1
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16:58<andythenorth>hmm
16:58<andythenorth>bananas needs a nightly version specific
16:58<andythenorth>specified *
16:58<andythenorth>no idea how to find that
17:10<@Alberth>:(
17:10<andythenorth>must be an OpenTTD version string of some kind
17:14<andythenorth>oops, I gave FIRS 2 a stupid name on bananas
17:14<andythenorth>and that will be there forever now :)
17:19<andythenorth>done though
17:20<@Alberth>\o/
17:21<andythenorth>6 months later than intended :D
17:27<@Alberth>it's more important that you got there in away you can live with peacefully :)
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17:50*andythenorth must to bed
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19:23<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 24 00:00:56 2016