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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-03-25

---Logopened Fri Mar 25 00:00:57 2016
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02:26<andythenorth>o/
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04:27<@Alberth>hoi
04:29<frosch123>lo
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04:51<andythenorth>coffee cat
05:00<@Alberth>hi hi
05:00*andythenorth didn’t rage quit on the roads thing
05:00<andythenorth>yet
05:01<andythenorth>I have long had this idea about ‘trails’ or some other kind of off-highway road
05:01<andythenorth>how would it work though?
05:01<andythenorth>are roads and trails mutually exclusive?
05:01<andythenorth>and can only cross with bridges?
05:02<andythenorth>or do vehicles have some kind of compatibility table?
05:18<@Alberth>problems always arise when you start digging :p
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05:21<andythenorth>well, I am quite happy to forget this part of the idea :)
05:22<andythenorth>but not before considering if it’s good
05:22<Supercheese>Roadtypes eh
05:22<andythenorth>no
05:22<Supercheese>Roadtypes as railtypes O_o
05:22<Supercheese>?*
05:22<andythenorth>Roadtypes is a turkey
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05:28<andythenorth>trails might be TMWFTLB
05:29<andythenorth>basically, you’d get to use mining trucks or similar, but on totally self-contained routes
05:29<andythenorth>the novelty would be nice for a few games, but it’s a lot of code to touch for an inextensible novelty
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05:29<@Alberth>I'd suggest to keep things simple
05:30<@Alberth>to give it a chance of some use, I'd say you'd need to be able to connect to "normal" road too, however.
05:30<andythenorth>yeah
05:31<andythenorth>and then you just build normal road everywhere...
05:31<@Alberth>that is the visual aspect
05:31<andythenorth>or we have to have speed limits and power adjustments and axle loadings :P
05:31<Supercheese>I'd settle for diagonal roads
05:31<Supercheese>:P
05:31<andythenorth>or we have similar to canal / ocean speed fraction, and that doesn’t work either for gameplay
05:31<@Alberth>Supercheese: ever tried drawing them?
05:31<Supercheese>Sure haven't
05:32<andythenorth>can’t be done
05:32<@Alberth>I tried, it doesn't work
05:32<Supercheese>probably easier than diagonal bridges though
05:32<@Alberth>even at diagrammatic level, just a grid of lines
05:32<@Alberth>bridges is perhaps the same problem
05:33<andythenorth>roads would span 2 tile width in a way that rails don’t
05:33<@Alberth>andy, if you want speed stuff and axle stuff, I'd say the RV must be able to detect what road it is using, and from there, it's newgrf territory
05:33<andythenorth>yeah, and I dislike all of that
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05:34<@Alberth>some people will freak on it :)
05:34<andythenorth>it’s nice to have offered 16 railtypes and all the crazy stuff
05:34<andythenorth>and that some players love it
05:34<andythenorth>but it does nothing for the game I still enjoy playing
05:34<@Alberth>you're free to ignore road types :)
05:35<andythenorth>also ignoring hard-coding a separate type of road
05:35<andythenorth>that just leaves road/tram, with catenary on/off
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05:37<frosch123>if you add varaction2 stuff to draw the default roadtypes, you could use townzones and stuff to draw dirt roads outside of roads
05:37<frosch123>*outside of towns
05:37<andythenorth>yeah, I wondered about that
05:37<frosch123>it would remove "highways", but i do not like them anyway
05:37<andythenorth>iirc, there are some ‘missing’ things that would let roads be visually better with newgrf
05:37<andythenorth>there’s some thing with snow also?
05:39<andythenorth>frosch123: what’s your meaning of “highways” in this case? o_O
05:40<frosch123>http://icons.wxug.com/hurricane/chrisburt/yuki3.jpg <- if roads looked like that, in ottd perspective you would not have to worry about drawing actual sprites
05:40<frosch123>roadhog would be done
05:40<frosch123>http://i.imgur.com/Uwnw1.png <- that kind of highway
05:40<frosch123>modern intercity transport
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05:40<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1kaovj3XoQ
05:40<frosch123>in contrast to 1850 intercity transport
05:41<andythenorth>oh yeah, those 2 lane things are bollocks
05:41<andythenorth>occasionally I build them to segregate fast and slow vehicles, but that’s work
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05:48<andythenorth>I need to extend the road construction dropdown on global toolbar
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05:49<andythenorth>I considered fragmenting ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD everywhere, I think that sucks
05:49<andythenorth>I want to pass a bool flag instead for catenary
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05:50<andythenorth>is there some cb registered as the handler for the dropdown?
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05:52<@Alberth>I like that kind of layout, not sure if it's useful though
05:53<@Alberth>bbl
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05:54<frosch123>andythenorth: you can connect to the toolbar whatever you like
05:58*andythenorth explores
05:59<andythenorth>ok found the handler
06:03*_johannes just cheated to get more money and then was rewarded with chairman status :)
06:03<frosch123>too much realism?
06:04<_johannes>:D
06:08<andythenorth>well
06:08<andythenorth>we have ROADTYPE_TRAM and ROADTYPE_ROAD
06:09<frosch123>the toolbar does not need to follow that
06:09<andythenorth>that’s what I’m trying to figure out how to do
06:09<andythenorth>I’ve found ShowBuildRoadToolbar(Roadtype roadtype)
06:09<frosch123>you can just make different button pass those types to the contruction toolbar
06:09<andythenorth>but I can’t see how the toolbar calls it, so I can stick some conditional logic in
06:09<frosch123>MenuClickShowRoad
06:10<frosch123>ToolbarBuildRoadClick <- err, that on
06:10<frosch123>MenuClickBuildRoad <- together with that one
06:11<frosch123>ToolbarBuildRoadClick defines the entries in the menu
06:11<frosch123>MenuClickBuildRoad reacts to them
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06:11<andythenorth>but MenuClickBuildRoad uses _last_built_roadtype?
06:12<andythenorth>not the one from the selection widget?
06:12<frosch123>that is when you click the button instead of the dropdown menu
06:13<frosch123>MenuClickBuildRoad(int index) <- index is the entry in the dropdown menu
06:13<frosch123>you can just map it do the roadtype differently, and set your catenary flag as well
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06:17<andythenorth>ah, so I can just use the index knowing the list order
06:17<andythenorth>ok
06:17*andythenorth gets it now
06:18<andythenorth>where the DropDownListStringItem has ROADTYPE_TRAM as a parameter, is that returned to MenuClickBuildRoad also?
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06:18<frosch123>ah yes, that's actually the "index" :p
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06:25<andythenorth>ah
06:25*andythenorth baby steps in C++
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06:25<andythenorth>does (RoadType)index convert that to a RoadType class, using a constant?
06:25<andythenorth>and then pass the class around?
06:25<frosch123>it's an enum, no class
06:25<frosch123>just ignore it
06:25<andythenorth>oh :|
06:26<frosch123>it makes it compile, nothing more
06:26<andythenorth>learning C++ years after learning scripting scripting languages is _really_ hard :)
06:26<frosch123>it's still an integer
06:26<andythenorth>so much apparent boilerplate :)
06:26<andythenorth>nfo was easier, it’s completely not like a modern language
06:27<frosch123>the past was always easier :)
06:28<frosch123>"false memories" or something
06:29<andythenorth>perceived difficulty
06:29<andythenorth>nfo is perceived as ‘hard’, so any progress seems good
06:30<frosch123>you would still have built a python layer around it
06:30<frosch123>so what's the difference?
06:31<andythenorth>I’m not going to build a python layer around C++? o_O
06:33<andythenorth>can C++ functions have optional params?
06:33*andythenorth googles
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06:34<_dp_>some params can have default values
06:35<_dp_>also you can overload function
06:35<Wolf01>o/
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06:36<_johannes>If you've accidently overwritten a savegame, and all autosaves are also not useful, is there any way to get it back?
06:36<frosch123>check your daily backups :p
06:37<_johannes>hmm I have a file with binary "OTTX" recovered with extundelete
06:37<_johannes>however, the OTTX is in the middle of the file
06:38<frosch123>OTTX are the first 4 bytes of an ottd savegame :)
06:38<_johannes>ok, but what are the last bytes? :)
06:39<frosch123>the next four bytes are the savegame version
06:39<Wolf01>if you overwritten it there's really low chance you can recover a file like it was deleted and the memory addresses untouched
06:39<frosch123>after that there repeat: four bytes for chunk name, four bytes for chunk length, chunk data
06:39<frosch123>until 00 00 00 00 chunk
06:39<frosch123>actually, not true
06:40<frosch123>because OTTX is compressed
06:40<frosch123>so, after OTTX and savegame version, you get an xz compressed data stream
06:40*andythenorth has four menu items
06:40<frosch123>no idea whether you can derive the size from that easily
06:40<andythenorth>now I need to expose catenary_flag to the road building commands
06:40<_johannes>:-/
06:41<andythenorth>do I store the flag in the road construction toolbar somehow, or is it some global?
06:41<_johannes>thanks frosch123
06:41<frosch123>andythenorth: add a variable next to _last_build_roadtype
06:42<frosch123>i.e. _last_build_roadcatenary
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06:42<andythenorth>currently I have ShowBuildRoadToolbar(_last_built_roadtype, catenary_flag);
06:42<andythenorth>which compiles
06:42<frosch123>that way it is restored when you just click the road toolbar, instead of the dropdown menu
06:43<andythenorth>I am not sure how to pass the flag on from *ShowBuildRoadToolbar
06:43<andythenorth>presumably I just pass it along the function chain?
06:44<frosch123>just follow the roadtype
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06:49<_johannes>frosch123: after the xz stream, does anything more follow?
06:49<frosch123>no
06:50<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/zpipe.c <- that is a simple tool to decompress a savegame
06:51<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/printhunk.c <- that is a simple tool to analyse a uncompressed savegame
06:58<_johannes>frosch123: does the tool somehow help me finding the end of this xz stream?
06:59<_johannes>ah, maybe just printing the file pointer position after the xz_... routine...
07:00<frosch123>well, try to decompress your file starting from the OTTX
07:00<frosch123>and see what comes out of it
07:00<frosch123>if you get an xz error, i have no idea how to proceed
07:01<frosch123>but you can likely check the uncompressed data up to the error
07:01<frosch123>and whether it is a valid savegame usin the printhunk tool
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07:08<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pkyiaogho/2jgh8f/raw
07:09<frosch123>you have two variables named _catenary_flag
07:09<frosch123>the parameter shadows the global variable
07:13<andythenorth>so when I declare bool _catenary_flag
07:13<andythenorth>that’s global?
07:13<andythenorth>because it’s outside a block?
07:15<andythenorth>ok I have it working
07:15<andythenorth>“but globals are bad, ok” :P
07:15<andythenorth>^ the only formal computer science I ever learnt
07:19<frosch123>yeah, ottd is pretty bad :)
07:20<andythenorth>now I just need to fix tunnels and bridges, then tramway is done
07:20<andythenorth>road doesn’t know how to draw catenary correctly, so that needs fixed
07:20<_johannes>frosch123: pkgconfig says -llzma should suffice (like you explained in the source), but I get undefined references to inflateEnd() and similar functions...
07:20<_johannes>any idea?
07:21<frosch123>it also contains the zlib compresseion for the OTTZ format
07:21<frosch123>also add -lz
07:21<frosch123>or remove the zlib functions
07:22<_johannes>ah, that worked
07:28<_johannes>zpipe tells my the data was corrupt...
07:28<frosch123>that's kind of expected, the question is how much it spit out before erroring out
07:29<_johannes>oh, indeed, quite a lot...
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07:30<_johannes>though I can not open the output file with openttd: unexpected end of chunk
07:30<frosch123>try it with the printhunk
07:30<frosch123>as long as the printed chunk names are readable letters the data is fine
07:31<frosch123>when they turn random, you know that you have reached invalid data
07:31<frosch123>then either your restored file is missing data, or data is shuffled in the restored file
07:33<_johannes>printhunk went up to MAP2, printed its bytes size, then returned with code 0
07:34<frosch123>i guess that means you are missing a lot
07:34<frosch123>iirc the MAP is at the start of the savegame
07:34<frosch123>so, at best you can receive the heightmap, but no tracks or vehicles or anything
07:35<_johannes>I have these: GLOG MAP2 MAPH MAPO MAPS MAPT
07:35<_johannes>so this means there's data missing?
07:35<frosch123>a lot
07:36<frosch123>you have no vehicles, no stations, no industries, no settings, no nothnig
07:36<frosch123>you barely have the heightmap data
07:36<_johannes>that's strange, the compressed file had exactly the size that similar savegames (from that map) had
07:36<frosch123>well, i am not sure what printhunk does when the data turns invalid
07:37<frosch123>and you said zpipe terminated as well
07:37<frosch123>so, apparently the data is invalid somewhere early
07:38<_johannes>so extundelete sometimes dumps data that might be overwritten?
07:39<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pktjrjt79 <- that's from a random savegame i tried
07:40<frosch123>i have no idea what extundelete does
07:48*andythenorth lost in tunnels + bridges
07:49<andythenorth>I successfully turned catenary off :P
07:49<andythenorth>but can’t turn it back on
07:52<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/prvlugqkf/tkm5u0/raw
07:52<andythenorth>HasCatenary(ti->tile) seems to be false always
07:53<frosch123>well, you might need a different bit for bridges
07:53<frosch123>also there are many ways to build a bridge
07:53<frosch123>like first build the bridge, then add tram and so on
07:54<argoneus>good morning train friends
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08:09<_johannes>ok, the missing chunks are probably located in other files that extundelete dumped, but since the content is compressed, there is probably no possibility to find out in which one?
08:10<frosch123>trial and error :) but yeah
08:12<_johannes>if you save a game under a different name then where you loaded the file, there's no "do you really want to overwrite...?" dialogue
08:12<_johannes>shouldn't there be one?
08:12<frosch123>it does not know what game it loaded last
08:12<frosch123>but yes, there is no such check
08:13<_johannes>that could be easily implemented
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08:36<Wolf01>\o/ got the dynamic pivot view to work
08:38<Wolf01>and now, some relax
08:38<Wolf01>andythenorth, 42041: what should I build first? A or B model?
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09:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think trails should not be able to cross normal roads and be mutually incompatible.
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09:27<_johannes>wasn't there a function to tell if a TrackDir variable was a real direction?
09:27<_johannes>i.e. not TRACKDIR_BEGIN, TRACKDIR_INVALID or something else?
09:27<frosch123>_BEGIN is always an alias to a valid value
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09:28<andythenorth>Wolf01: build neither? o_O
09:28<frosch123>so unless there is a IsTrackDirValid function, you just compare with TRACKDIR_:INVALID
09:28<andythenorth>42041 has a bad rep for some reason :)
09:28<andythenorth>dunno why
09:28<Wolf01>too many stickers
09:28<_johannes>ah BEGIN = X_NE , ok, did not see this
09:28<_johannes>then it's clear
09:29<andythenorth>also low on functions?
09:29<andythenorth>but eh, it’s a racing truck, what’s to hate?
09:29<Wolf01>I'm building the B model now
09:29<Wolf01>yes, how many function do you expect for a car/truck?
09:29<Wolf01>steering, fake motor
09:30<Wolf01>the truck has tilting cabin
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09:31<Wolf01>it's a good source for parts, loads of 15 beams
09:31<Wolf01>o/
09:31<@Alberth>hi hi
09:31<Wolf01>also half beams and bent beams
09:36<_johannes>I get negative costs in yapf again, which lead to crashes
09:36<_johannes>is it possible that you can not start a search from some element of tile x trackdir ?
09:38<_johannes>IIRC there was some part of the code where the starting station got a negative value assigned, but I cannot find it anymore...
09:41*andythenorth managed to trigger an assert
09:41<andythenorth>progress
09:41<@Alberth>\o/ :)
09:41<andythenorth>I should probably learn how to debug
09:42<andythenorth>or at least print values to console or something
09:42<@Alberth>printf("blah %d\n", number);
09:43<andythenorth>ta
09:43<@Alberth>in case of real crashes, saving the core dump, and then using the debugger to get the stack-trace can be useful
09:43<Wolf01>"%c", char and "%s", string and so on
09:44<@Alberth>as long as your system knows how to dump a corefile :p (mine doesn't currently)
09:44<@Alberth>%s isn't terribly useful in c++ :)
09:44<@Alberth>almost everything is a number :D
09:44<Wolf01>or you use an IDE with a JIT debugger
09:45<@Alberth>run the program from a debugger also works :)
09:45<@Alberth>JIT? for C++?
09:45<frosch123>Alberth: since when are you using a kernel that cannot dump corefiles?
09:46<Wolf01>Visual Studio? It seem to be able to attach a debugger even to the real world
09:47<@Alberth>frosch123: since they added 'smart' error reporting, where the repot system hijacks core dumps, and then the permission system refuses to let it make a copy for me, as it has no context of the crashed process anymore, or so
09:48<frosch123>ok :)
09:48<@Alberth>I should probably upgrade to the next release :)
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09:50<Wolf01>whatsapp today is goinf full retard :|
09:50<Wolf01>*going
09:50<Wolf01>I need to keep the smartphone on with the app running foreground, because the web client looses the connection otherwise
09:51<@Alberth>seriously, your world doesn't need to be bigger than whatsapp
09:52<@Alberth>it's bad enough that you leave without notice for food, shopping, and sleeping
09:52<supermop>yo
09:53<@Alberth>hi hi
09:54<Wolf01>o/
09:55<andythenorth>are most of the messages here? “-> shops” ?
09:56<andythenorth>also, newgrf landscape generator plugin? o_O :P
09:59<Wolf01>a what?
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10:19<@Alberth>squirrel landscape generator might be doable
10:20<@Alberth>although the better solution is likely an open file format, and an external program
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11:09<KouDy>exit
11:09<@Alberth>almost :)
11:19<andythenorth>do I need to set the catenary bit on the tile for every case (plain road, station, tunnel, etc)?
11:19*andythenorth tried sticking it after all the cases, but might not work
11:27<andythenorth>oh, tunnelbridge is a different tile type to road? o_O
11:31<@Alberth>every tile type that must have a catenary, must have a bit
11:32<andythenorth>ok so I need to extend *_map.h for all those types
11:32<@Alberth>and yeah, tunnelbridges != normal road, since bridges don't exist :)
11:33<@Alberth>you may have to find a place for the bit for each tile type separately
11:33<@Alberth>don't know how much of that is aligned between different tile types
11:35<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/raw-file/a5407c556114/docs/landscape_grid.html
11:35<andythenorth>I picked m1 7 because it looked clear for the cases I need
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12:02<supermop>is there a practical reason to buy a font in ttf vs otf?
12:05<@Alberth>http://superuser.com/questions/96390/difference-between-otf-open-type-or-ttf-true-type-font-formats ?
12:05<@Alberth>ha, even the site matches with your nick :p
12:09*andythenorth -> food, shopping, sleeping
12:09<andythenorth>bye
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12:23<_johannes>can someone please help me with YAPF?
12:23<_johannes>I have really no clue where the negative costs come from
12:24<_johannes>Where are the costs initialized to the nodes?
12:26<@Alberth>add assert(cost >= 0); somewhere, wait for the crash, then analyze the stack trace
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12:28<_johannes>the question is: where :P
12:29<@Alberth>I'd say as soon as you compute cost
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12:30<@Alberth>maybe even do that for both the running total and the estimate too
12:31<_johannes>ah maybe I could set a watchpoint...
12:31<@Alberth>that might work too
12:31<@Alberth>I don't use debuggers very much :p
12:35<@Alberth>not sure how much that helps though, A* code generally doesn't make much sense without pretty 2d-ish picture
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13:36<supermop>not sure how to think about a place near the office with a lunch special that involves a pint of anything on draft
13:36<supermop>i mean i of course had the beer, but seems a half pint would be more appropriate for a lunch break
13:39<@Alberth>ask V :)
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13:50<supermop>still need an iconographic, monochromatic base set that can run in the background at work without looking too obvious
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14:21<V453000>so who read friday farts yet?
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15:49<argoneus>V453000: I did
15:49<argoneus>can I get a cookie
15:50<V453000>is train cookie enough?
15:50<argoneus>how much horsepower
15:56<Wolf01>"Redo of the train graphics and fixing the train distances, so they are whole tiles and vertical and horizontal distances are the same." this looks a lot of work for V
15:56<Wolf01>*+like somewhere
15:57<Wolf01>nooo the spidertron has been postponed :(
15:58<Wolf01>also... jobs... too bad I'm focused on PHP and C# now
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16:39<sim-al2>^Netsplit city here
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16:56<supermop>would a vehicle with 0hp still accelerate on slopes?
16:57<sim-al2>I think there's a minimum speed vehicles will do, like 2km/h
16:57<@Alberth>1km/h, but yeah, not 0 :)
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16:58<supermop>but if it started at 2kmh, then went down 4 slopes, would it gain speed?
16:58<@Alberth>up to speed limit, afaik
16:58<supermop>ok
16:59<@Alberth>point is mostly that you must be able to bring any engine into a depot at all times
16:59<@Alberth>and since you can't tow, it must run on its own :)
16:59<supermop>could it be made impossible for vehicle to travel uphil?
16:59<sim-al2>Of course, if the vehicle is going 1km/h, it can take a while :)
17:00<sim-al2>(especially if a train stalls out going up hill)
17:00<@Alberth>yep, I have had that even with normal engines
17:00<supermop>ok so s/vehicle/log
17:00<@Alberth>too long train, and too heavy, breakdown in the middle of the hill :)
17:01<supermop>can hp change on load %
17:01<@Alberth>I don't think you can prevent it going up, other than by powerless or so
17:02<supermop>so unloaded 'log' has 10,000 hp and log with load >0% has 0 hp
17:02<@Alberth>don't know, but I wouldn't expect it
17:02<@Alberth>isn't that what xussrset caused desync with?
17:03<supermop>so log can slide down a flume but return invisibly to top of flume to pick up another "log"
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17:24<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_park
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18:47<drac_boy>hi
18:47<sim-al2>hi
18:47<drac_boy>heh how doing?
18:47<sim-al2>I'm good
18:47<drac_boy>doing ok here..just sorting a lot of images tho :-s
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18:53<drac_boy>btw if you don't mind the earlier subject heres something else I found while looking up a little more ... that strange BR 10100 multi-engines locomotive actually ran well for a while but eventually some major mechanical blowouts failed it for good
18:54<drac_boy>I still think that big flat exposed radiator gives it a bit of an odd look :)
18:54<drac_boy>http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/erm-10100-millers-dale.jpg this a good photo of that
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18:57<drac_boy>at least it was a 'good' one-off .. compared to eg the NH 'train-x' lightweight set having a major fire problem on its press run (why is that never a good sign anyway?) and apparently didn't even last much normal service at all
18:59<drac_boy>oh or there of course is that previous mention of santa fe 'BEEP' rebuild locomotive that was an one-off too but lasted a very long time
19:01<drac_boy>anyway never mind all of that. what you doing beside irc? :)
19:04<sim-al2>Just little household things, feed the dog, etc
19:05<sim-al2>Yeah, apparently the radiator on those things was do to the very high heat output of the transmission
19:08<drac_boy>if you want a nice example of big cores just look up the GT3
19:08<drac_boy>most of its front was radiator .. and even had to sport some side vents of some sort too
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19:09<drac_boy>tbh it almost looks like a coach carriage vestibule pointing forward if you get me
19:13<sim-al2>Yeah I see what you mean. Those trays along the side are for the starting batteries, complete with vents to allow gases to escape
19:15<sim-al2>The detail drawings say that the large grilles actually house the air intake filters, and not radiators
19:15<sim-al2>Turbines don't really need large radiators, except for oil cooling
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19:17<sim-al2>The center of the locomotive housed a large heat exchanger from the exhaust gases to the intake
19:17<drac_boy>oh while we're at uk's short period of unusual locomotives, can I point you to http://www.bulleidboard.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/misc/36001_stn_w4.jpg .. looks like a diesel locomotive but has extra-thick chassis umm aside to that it smokes a lot anyway :)
19:18<sim-al2>Apparently they fit through regular carriage washers. Rather bad conditions for the fireman though
19:18<drac_boy>it was one of these "attempt to be easy for a basic engineer to handle" steam power .. but of course BR wanted nothing to do with steam still
19:18<sim-al2>Not much room for fuel either
19:20<sim-al2>The cab reminds me of a Southern Pacific cab-forward
19:21<drac_boy>well, it would seem one end had nothing but fuel bunker tho .. the actual locomotive was almost only half length
19:21<sim-al2>Except those had the advantage of being oil-fired, so the fireman wasn't in a poor position like earlier cab-forward attempts
19:22<sim-al2>I think these had an offset firebox and boiler too, so that there could be a walkway through
19:22<drac_boy>heh well some uk locomotives did run backward on slower lines but the issue was if the tender was a large one re restricted visibility .. and if it was coal (as usual at the time) talk about coaldust getting into your face too
19:23<drac_boy>best to leave these kind of pulls to a tank locomotive
19:27<drac_boy>ah and about non-steam looking steam .. its not quite uk but ireland had this http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/_oth/cc1_itb.aspx always actually found that one interesting
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19:32<sim-al2>Looks almost like a Garrett but with a tender front-end
19:34<drac_boy>if it was a garratt that would had been a 2-4-0+0-4-2, maybe not a well known type anyhow (compared to 0-4-0+0-4-0)
19:34<drac_boy>:)
19:38<sim-al2>I know, just the cab-shape and unusual front end
19:38<sim-al2>But a Garrett would look longer, while this looks more like a brick
19:39<sim-al2>Hmm, peat as fuel too... that must have an interesting smell
19:40<drac_boy>well there is one garratt that had a strange attempt at being streamlined http://www.wegmuller.org/gallery/var/resizes/Large-Scale-Models/Streamlined-Garratt/L%20rear%201.jpg?m=1421337862
19:40<drac_boy>note the use of double elephant ears, one is on the water tender body instead while other one is in a more normal position by the stack
19:40<sim-al2>I think the designer spent a lot of time looking at this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/MILW_Bi-Polar.jpg
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19:44<drac_boy>btw if you want "interesting smell" .. take a guess which amtrak trainset had a smokey kind of french fries smell coming from the roof at both motor ends? :)
19:45<sim-al2>Did they run the turbines on biodiesel at some point?
19:45<drac_boy>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/3/7/5037.1185339600.jpg some people at crossing said these smell like fries apparently
19:47<sim-al2>I suppose they were desperate to reduce fuel costs...
19:47<Wolf01>https://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/03/25/2017200/wrecking-crew-demolishes-wrong-housing-duplex-following-google-maps-error heh... they misclicked on the tile with the dynamite tool?
19:48<sim-al2>^Yeah, apparently the contractor was rather dismissive of the owner too, just telling her that insurance would help and to prepare for a long legal battle
19:48<drac_boy>well if they didn't like the fuel cost, why not just gut the locomotive shell and either put in diesel power or rather turn the body into baggage/HEP ends to haul with a conventional locomotive instead
19:48<drac_boy>but no apparently they simply sidelined them till they rusted quite a bit
19:48<sim-al2>These designs had some issues
19:49<sim-al2>I think they were already starting to rust by the time they were suppsoed to be replaced
19:49<Wolf01>btw, night all
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19:49<sim-al2>And their replacements were far more unreliable, with air conditioning problems and all kinds of build-quality issues
19:49<drac_boy>heck even the Talgo trainset in west usa (I forgot which state they run in) used to be a design that didn't have any FRA-sane pushpull mode but now they already have a "cabbage" kind of cab car at one end to make an effective pushpull set
19:50<sim-al2>So much so that Amtrak effectively refused to operate them, and starting using regular locomotive-hauled sets instead
19:50<drac_boy>heres one of these http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/5/4/7854.1394927271.jpg
19:50<sim-al2>New York state has been mad at Amtrak for years because of that, but apparently the state didn't want to pay for the fixes either
19:50<drac_boy>as I recall the large cab/windshield was due to mockup testings for trackside visibility among other things
19:51<sim-al2>I think that might be needed because of the size of the nose and the raised position
19:51<sim-al2>*driver's position
19:52<sim-al2>The top is probably part of the collision structure too, in case of overturning
19:52<sim-al2>It's pretty ugly tbh, but it replaces the large ex-locomotive that had to be dragged around
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19:53<sim-al2>Painting the nose a bit differently would help
19:53<drac_boy>and about NY .. well I imagine its one of these "if you don't like it then pay to get it out" catch-22 .. and amtrak not getting any payment from NY gives us a simple answer to that? :)
19:55<drac_boy>btw the cabbage units amtrak used on other trains weren't that heavy at all when compared to the coach behind them...especially if you had sealed up the fuel tank empty in first place
19:56<sim-al2>It's an ex-F40PH, dragging around a 260,000 lb unit for collision purposes only
19:56<sim-al2>Soley because the first generation Talgos weren't collision-rated here
19:56<drac_boy>one of their issue naturally was the high floor for baggage loading ... but to change that meant spending money modifying things (rather than just simply gut it and stop the budget at that)
19:57<sim-al2>Well, the frame makes it hard too, because the floor of the engine room is right on the top of the frame, and the engine's crankcase has a small well in the middle
19:58<sim-al2>The coaches are pretty light, not more than 110,000 lbs
19:59<sim-al2>The new coaches that Amtrak and others are ordering will also be around that weight, but with full collision rating, even the cabcars
19:59<sim-al2>Dragging around a weight like that for no reason definetly hurts fuel economy
20:00<sim-al2>Oh, you know how the Turboliners entered New York Penn Station?
20:03<sim-al2>They were modified with a traction motor connected to the transmission, that would use third-rail power in the tunnels
20:06<drac_boy>btw just had to look and found one gov-owned pfd, the F40PH is officially quoted as at least 70000lbs total engine/compressor/etc aside to that the trucks (with traction motor still on, not sure if that was so for cabbages too?) were close to 45000lbs
20:06<drac_boy>strangely theres no body or total weight listed
20:07<sim-al2>The engine block weighes around 40000 lbs (V16), so a few thousand more for engine components seems reasonable
20:09<drac_boy>well looks like that leaves about 170000-180000lbs for the cabbage units unless the traction was perhaps also scrapped as well
20:09<sim-al2>I'm pretty sure the weight was replaced with ballast when the mechanical componenets were removed
20:10<drac_boy>the fuel tank being retained seem a bit funny but perhaps had another reason for that ... theres a separate box closer to rear truck for batteries (probably as to keep a flat baggage floor)
20:10<sim-al2>I think they put concrete in the fuel tank
20:11<sim-al2>The battery box was already down there, it needs to be retained for the controls to work
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20:14<sim-al2>At the very least, there are weights in the floor that replace the weight that was in the engine compartment
20:15<drac_boy>hm why does that remind me of a somewhat silly story on a rail preservation site ... hired a special mover to move an old ex-commuter coach onto truck for new home ... mover shows up with a single span beam to pick it up and the to-be owner asked about that skinny looking beam to be told to not worry he had done countless moves like this...
20:15<drac_boy>but cue that as soon as the cable took up slack the coach just sat there while the beam literally deformed ... sure scared the mover there :)
20:16<drac_boy>hint: some commuter coach often had lot of weight poured into the floor back then!
20:17<sim-al2>The 6-axles heavyweights were pretty ridiculous, but the 4-axles commuter cars should have been more reasonable
20:17<sim-al2>Of course, still enough to make moving them off-the-rails a challenge
20:19<sim-al2>I still can't find official numbers for the NPCU, but some forum posts say close to 200,000 lbs
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20:23<drac_boy>still looking for that thread (I know I'm on the right forum...go figure with that!) one moment :)
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20:28<drac_boy>ah, guess they must have dumped it to some archive. oh well, was a funny story
20:32<drac_boy>oh wait, I found the other one that may not be related but is as funny...
20:32<drac_boy>http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=152922&sid=8fdf2842df6fae9fe80d51e270acc573#p152922 have fun reading that and the immediate post below it and don't scratch your head too much ;)
20:36<drac_boy>I always love it when mr.thinksheknowsitall is never 100% right anyway
20:38<sim-al2>Oh man, they had to do it to a Lackawanna MU car too
20:45<drac_boy>how about THESE kind of rail-to-nonrail uses? http://www.mickeysdiningcar.com/DinerExteriorCurrent2.jpg
20:46<drac_boy>funny thing is their layout were well suited to old fashioned diners due to all the booth/bar seats on one side and the windows-boarded-up kitchen on other side .. no wonder it was so popular in some cities
20:46<sim-al2>Looks like a tram?
20:48<drac_boy>mind you I think I have seen one that used to be a PCC tram .. figured
20:53<drac_boy>hm *wants to shoot either the web or the useless translator* ... geeze, sometimes its so hard to try find specific stations/railways in foreign languages >_<
20:53*drac_boy at least knows that viaduct is spelled viadukt in switzerland
20:59<Supercheese>Viaduck, quack quack
21:02*drac_boy smacks supercheese with a proper viadukt https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/RhB_Ge_4-4_II_Wiesener_Viadukt.jpg/1280px-RhB_Ge_4-4_II_Wiesener_Viadukt.jpg
21:02<drac_boy>:P
21:02<drac_boy>either way supercheese and sim-a12 I'm going off for tonight so have fun :)
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 26 00:00:59 2016