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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-04

---Logopened Mon Apr 04 00:00:12 2016
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04:44<Wolf01>hi o/
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05:27<Eddi|zuHause>why does nothing ever work out of the box?
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>i installed graphics drivers, and all i got was this black screen.
05:31<Wolf01>with vs2015 I had to do a repair just after the installatio, because the installation does not install everything
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09:02<andythenorth>interesting :)
09:07<andythenorth>^ from reading that, it’s quite interesting mechanic
09:07*andythenorth mumbles
09:09*Wolf01 requires more experience on writing adaptive UIs :|
09:11<andythenorth>what are you building?
09:11<Wolf01>a feed reader
09:12<andythenorth>you need to scale to arbitrary screen size?
09:12<Wolf01>I have 3 breakpoints and need to find a good layout to fit all elements
09:12<andythenorth>or specific known ranges?
09:12<andythenorth>ok, well what’s the 3rd breakpoints?
09:12<andythenorth>I usually work with 3, but one of them is borderline useless
09:13<Wolf01>mobile, tablet and desktop
09:14<andythenorth>we focus on the mobile and desktop views
09:14<Wolf01>tablet and desktop are the same layout only with different sizes
09:14<andythenorth>there are a limited range of 7” or so tablets that need a specific view, mostly in portrait orientation
09:14<andythenorth>typically that’s the desktop view scaled, or with one column dropped
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the problem here? check resolution, dpi and aspect ratio?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>or relation of font size to screen size and aspect ratio?
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09:42<supermop>yo pikka
09:42<Wolf01>:O a pikka
09:44<supermop>how's the land of hot modernism?
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably not russia :p
09:46<andythenorth>hello bob
09:47<andythenorth>apparently you are making your own transport game? o_O
09:48<supermop>hopefully all monorails
09:52<Pikka>hello, apparently I am
09:52<Pikka>only one monorail, hence the name
09:52<Pikka>it's very hot, supermop. Summer isn't ending this year.
09:53<supermop>i wish i was in brisbane, wore a t shirt to work friday, but now it's back to dreary, rainy and 40 degrees
09:53<Wolf01>we didn't had winter both this year and last year :|
09:53<supermop>but not your 40, our 40
09:54<supermop>headache of wedding planning made somewhat better by knowing it will be in a hot modernist land at least
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>things start breaking around here above 42°C
10:00<supermop>how often does it reach that there?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>nowadays, maybe once per summer
10:03<supermop>sounds like an excuse for a day off!
10:03<supermop>pikka, when the time comes, lmk if you want any modelling help (will leave skinning and rendering to you)
10:04<supermop>happy to maybe untextured houses etc though
10:06<supermop>andythenorth: not too discouraged by difficult customers?
10:06<Pikka>for sure :) had an offer of some coding help today (which would be great)...
10:07<supermop>you don't want my coding help for sure
10:07<supermop>my fiance maybe
10:07<supermop>she's supposed to teach me python at some point though
10:07<Pikka>I can tinker with code, but setting up a large project is completely beyond my experience or knowledge. :)
10:09<supermop>knowing only the buzzwords that frustrate my partner, i say "use agile"
10:09<supermop>and get a "scrum master"
10:15<supermop>i feel like i should make more theoretically interesting digital assests out of the musings i've done on architecture and urbanism in various cities over the years
10:16<supermop>making neat little houses for a game would be a start
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10:21<andythenorth>Pikka “get a scrum master"
10:21<Pikka>sounds painful
10:21*andythenorth has multiple scrum masters
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm, where exactly is the crontab of a user stored?
10:23<Pikka>it sounds like a good idea, andythenorth and supermop. Probably need more scrum participants first.
10:23<supermop>honestly, i am not sure what value the scrum master adds to the team?
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>of course, the only way to make a successful game is to get a BIG project manager :p
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10:27<V453000>sup Pikka, how are you? :)
10:28<andythenorth>supermop have you worked in a team doing scrum-but- ?
10:28<supermop>i've only worked in construction/design industries where we don't have such advance PM techniques
10:29<Pikka>hi V, not bad. Job hunting and daydreaming as usual. :)
10:29<V453000>any openttd stuff progress/plans? :
10:30<andythenorth>Pikka: what are the Bad Features you had in mind? o_O
10:31<andythenorth>(the ones we don’t add to ottd)
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10:31<Pikka>Oh, plenty of bad features. Not doing a remake of TTD (like Train Fever) for a start... something different.
10:32<supermop>monorail fever
10:32<sim-al2>ALWEG or suspended?
10:33<peter1138>andythenorth, realism!
10:33<supermop>ALWEG ALL the Time
10:33<supermop>need that tattooed across my cheat
10:34<Pikka>hooray for realism, peter1138
10:35<supermop>"RUBBER TYRES : START FIRES"
10:35<peter1138>also you gotta sit in each vehicle and manually drive them
10:35<peter1138>in realtime
10:35<sim-al2>Soon: The only problem with realism in Monorail Fever(TM) is that everything tops out at 90 km/h
10:36-!-Ketsuban [~ketsuban@2a02:c7d:a34a:9000:fd97:38e9:8d32:7fa1] has joined #openttd
10:36<Wolf01>V453000, were you (your company) serious about the last friday news or it was an april fool?
10:38<supermop>monorail de D
10:38<V453000>guess? :D
10:38<Pikka>too many realisms, supermop
10:38<supermop>sim-al2: problem - straddle beam monorail inhibits drifting
10:40<sim-al2>Hmmm, yeah...
10:41<Wolf01>it's hard to guess sometimes, the spidertron was more suitable as a joke and instead it seem it will be added to a future update
10:43<V453000>that is just because we realized our functional vision of the spidertron wasnt as complete as we thought
10:45<Wolf01>about the mobile version, it would be really cool also if I prefer to pay for a game and not when playing a game, but I'm out because I'm on the Microsoft side :(
10:45<V453000>mobile will probably never happen :P
10:45<Wolf01>never say never, maybe a unity port someday
10:51<Wolf01> lolwhat? and the battery life? 3 minutes?
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10:56<andythenorth>Pikka: stay tuned for NotRoadTypes btw
10:56<andythenorth>I think it will take about a year
10:56<Pikka>oh dear
10:56<Samu> - do you see the image in the post, or a link to the image? I can't seem to get the image to display in the post
10:56<Pikka>let's just make a new game, it'll be faster ;)
10:57<Pikka>this is tram wires / not wires?
10:58<peter1138>step 1, no cc mapping
10:58<andythenorth>Pikka: more like actual types of tram or road
10:58<andythenorth>with all the compatibility shit you can imagine
10:58<andythenorth>that I won’t use in my NotRoadTypes grf
10:58<andythenorth>but some people can get busy on forums working out a label schema for
10:59<Samu>openttd credits say u made rivers, andythenorth
10:59<andythenorth>drew them
10:59<andythenorth>not coded
10:59<Samu>oh :/
10:59<Samu>describe my arrangement of pictures
11:00<Samu>draw more edges and corners
11:00<Samu>for me plz
11:02<Samu>the coding, however... no idea what to do at this point, I got stuck
11:02<Samu>can't figure out how to code
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11:10<Samu>sprite aligner
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11:14<Samu>crap, forgot to paste the 16 flat river tiles
11:14<Samu>they "exist"
11:14<Samu>or apparently they're copied 16 times from just the same 1
11:16<Samu>what are the 2 last columns for?
11:16<Samu>they're equal to the first column
11:20<Samu>the more I explore, the more I find out there's missing even more sprites
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11:23<Wolf01>4 shades of gray in a single app window are too much?
11:24<Wolf01>I would put some red too, just to catch the eye
11:29<@Alberth>you know this openttd program? those guys use 256 colours of the rainbow all at the same time. Worse, recently, they expanded to millions of colours!
11:30<Wolf01>ehe, it's a game, I have pictures too with millions of colours, but try to make the ottd gui with more colours
11:31<@Alberth>I think each of the colours of the gui has 7 or 8 colour shades, not sure if they are all used though
11:32<@Alberth>eg at the edges of the buttons
11:33<Wolf01>that's to achieve the fake 3d effect, I'm doing flat
11:36<Wolf01>I'm seeing that microsoft used a nice palette of colours on the default apps, maybe I'm not using too many colours
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11:38<Samu>where are the corners or small corners being drawed (drawned, drawd, drew?) from
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11:40<Samu>drawn? my english
11:42<@Alberth>drawn is correct afaik
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11:44<Samu>what is a .xcf file?
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11:44<supermop>andythenorth: drafting Iron Crane and Stag Beetle Schema
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11:49<Hagbard>So, I have this: Currently using version B, but constructing A is also possible. How can I use any of those to allow trains going paralell pass the crossing at the same time, without one of them having to stop?
11:51<@Alberth>use path signals
11:51<supermop>contrast to pony: rail slower but high capacity / "metro" shares trackage. high speed cannot share trackage
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11:52<supermop>smaller freight capacities, passenger either slow and capacious or fast and limited
11:55<andythenorth>supermop: any particular realism? Or made up?
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11:55<supermop>but less hardcore than 2cc or Jpan set
11:55<Samu>hey supermop :o
11:56<supermop>still more emu focused than pony roster, but not to the rivet counting degree of japan set
11:56<andythenorth>Wolf01: in grey (or desaturated colour): main colour, shadow colour, highlight colour, alternative colour (for boxouts etc)
11:56<supermop>just a trade off selection between 2-3 types per age
11:56<andythenorth>+ two shades of key colour (red, blue, pink etc)
11:58<supermop>slight focus of urban transit
11:58<Wolf01>thank you
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12:00<supermop>maybe starts with slow, cheap comprehensive freight and passenger network, but evolves toward separate freight, local, and express networks over time
12:01<Wolf01>I used kuler (now adobe color) when I worked on the cms interface at work
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12:02<supermop>crane is ih roster, stag beetle is termite roster
12:09<supermop>how many steam engines does a typical ih roster have?
12:09<supermop>i find it really hard to care about steam trains
12:10<andythenorth>there’s no fixed number
12:11<supermop>like 4 or or like 10?
12:11<andythenorth>it’s better to think in terms of express, freight, small, mixed trafffic, jokers
12:11<supermop>1860s to 1950s is a long time
12:11<andythenorth>express and freight you get an engine every 20-30 years
12:11<andythenorth>branch line, mixed traffic, every 30-60 years
12:11<supermop>but 20 seems like way too many for IH
12:12<supermop>but i guess pre-war need to be interesting too
12:12<andythenorth>supermop: Dan recently asked about number of engines too, so I adjusted the docs:
12:12<@Alberth>in some games I don't even get to post-war eras :)
12:13*andythenorth finds 70 years is about enough in most games
12:13<supermop>i always play with a few shitty tank engines then, never start early enough to afford shiny fast steam trains before diesel and electrics arrive
12:14<supermop>10 steams should be fine for pre-war asian games
12:15<supermop>nothing new from 1860-1900?
12:15<supermop>that makes it easy
12:18<Samu>supermop: what am i suposed to be doing?
12:18<Samu>I'm stopped, but I want to do something
12:19<supermop>man i have no idea
12:19<supermop>i can draw stuff
12:19<supermop>thats about it
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12:20<Samu>what are the tools to work with opengfx-v5935-source
12:27<@Alberth>make, c pre-processor, nml, perhaps gimp
12:27<@Alberth>it may also need a version control system, not sure
12:28<@Alberth>you know, the usual stuff that you have at a linux system
12:29<Samu>installing gimp, i suppose i nee this
12:29<@Alberth>if "work with" includes changing graphics, you need a graphics editor too (gimp is one, but not the easiest one)
12:30<@Alberth>if you add images, you need a text editor
12:30<Samu>i need to add images, that for sure
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>"nothing new from 1860-1900"? that was like the most innovative time in the history of the steam engine...
12:31<@Alberth>you might just want to download the source, and try to build it. The system will complain about missing things :p
12:31<supermop>Samu: what graphics do you need beyond whats in ogfx+ and what i drew?
12:31<Samu>uhm... make the code use them
12:32<Samu>add them to the code
12:32<@Alberth>not sure how editing opengfx does that, tbh
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12:45<Samu>what's the difference between ogfx+ and opengfx?
12:46<@Alberth>afaik first is a set of newgrfs, second is a baseset
12:46<Samu>it's the baseset that needs editing
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12:47<@Alberth>you may want to double check what each thing is
12:49<Samu>truth is... i'm completely lost, what do i have to do first, the project seems too complex after all
12:49<supermop>andythenorth: any gameplace use for a diesel that is introduced before the last steam?
12:52<Samu>the newgrf works on top of baseset? the baseset is the "skeleton", the infrastructure, where the newgrfs may build upon?
12:53<Samu>what's the relation baseset and openttd have?
12:54<Samu>I ask too many questions, :(
12:55<supermop>base set is like a recreation of the graphic files that came on the original TTD cd
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12:55<andythenorth>supermop: diesel versus steam is irrelevant :)
12:55<andythenorth>they have no gameplay difference
12:56<@Alberth>/me considers steam engine much more attractive
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>steam is usually longer than diesel
12:56<supermop>stylistically though, is there a niche somewhere in the 30s for something smaller/lighter/ etc
12:56<andythenorth>eddi is right, there is sometimes a marginal capacity per tile advantage to diesels
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: OpenTTD doesn't do niches very well
12:57<Samu>i don't recall original TTD having rivers
12:59<andythenorth>it doesn’t
12:59<andythenorth>hence ottd.grf or whatever it’s called
13:00<Samu>sorry supermop, I can't do this. I have an idea of what's missing, but I don't quite get the whole picture, how openttd interacts with basesets with their extras
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13:00<supermop>Samu: doesnt matter to me, no need to apologize
13:01<Samu>it was even my idea to start, i find myself stupid now that I can't push forward
13:01<supermop>i just saw an opportunity to contribute some simple sprites, i'm not particularly invested in the feature
13:02<andythenorth>Samu: give it a break for a bit
13:02<andythenorth>sometimes I stop, turn irc off etc
13:02<andythenorth>otherwise I’d rage quit when coding
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13:07<Samu>supermop, what you have drawn were riverbanks. there's also river_water, as the game calls it, another row of tiles without stones on it. I just don't get how they would animate if only providing a static image
13:07<Samu>i have too many questions and no certainty of anything
13:09<Samu>then there's this mysteryous .xcf file, that I have no idea what it does
13:10<@Alberth>the Internet knows everything :)
13:13<supermop>4-5 diesels, 8 electrics, feels like way too many....
13:14<supermop>is only one new locomotive per decade too boring?
13:15<Samu>how is water animated?
13:15<Samu>different sprites in a row cycling?
13:15<supermop>pallete animation
13:16<supermop>the blue colors cycle
13:16<supermop>in one sprite
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>new engine every 10 years is fine
13:17<Samu>hm so it only needs 1 static image
13:19<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: what about 15-20?
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13:22<Samu>the game doesn't make use of these river_water, except for the flat one, and even then... I'm not sure... this is the bigger problem I have. I'm never sure of anything, grr :(
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13:34<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on what audience you're trying to reach
13:34<Wolf01>I like 12, it's divisible by 2, 3 and 4, really useful for colspan and it's a fair number of items for a grid layout which can be 1, 2, 3 or 4 columns...
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>probably works, too
13:35<supermop>more electrics and MUs than default game, much fewer than in "realistic" sets
13:35<supermop>Wolf01: 12 locomotives?
13:36<Wolf01>12 everything
13:36<supermop>as is have 22 locomotives
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>don't look at 10cc then :p
13:37<Wolf01>and I still can't get the right display size :E
13:37<supermop>which means adding enough MUs to make it slightly more MU focused than pony roster is way too many MUs
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13:38<supermop>3 types of EMU, few generations each
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13:39<supermop>maybe 18 emus
13:39<supermop>lunch time
13:44<Wolf01>what's better background colour theme: dark title and slighty lighter content or the inverse?
13:48<@Alberth>what should be more visible?
13:49<Wolf01>title, the content is just an excerpt and to read it all you must click on the item
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14:07<@Alberth>I'd make that lighter then
14:17<Samu>line 650
14:18<Samu>does it really need to beMAX_COMPANIES -1?
14:18<Samu>i'm currently working on max_no_competitors = 15 patch
14:18<Samu>and came across that
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14:40<frosch123>still looking for a new oil source?
14:41<andythenorth>just don’t want to get into a forums nitpick about reality
14:43<supermop>andythenorth: IH philosophically opposed to MUs longer than 2 segments per vehicle?
14:43<andythenorth>metros are 1 tile
14:44<andythenorth>railcars are single units that can be combined to arbitrary length
14:44<frosch123>too bad, i though "whaling base" would be just the right industry for your norwegian fan :p
14:44<andythenorth>back channel irc bitching instead of just talking in forums
14:44<andythenorth>bad andythenorth
14:45<frosch123>oh, i thought that's what all this channel is about
14:46<supermop>i want a different approach to interesting MUs than 2cc set does
14:46<supermop>the MU wagons are way too cheap relative to MU heads in that
14:47<frosch123>irc bitching about forums, simuscape bitching about irc, forums bitching about simuscape
14:47<frosch123>i thought that was ottd's rock-paper-scissors
14:47<supermop>but building a train entirely of MUs is prohibitively expensive and provides no value
14:49*andythenorth is sad
14:51<andythenorth>it seems that wikipedia is wrong
14:53<@Alberth>"inspired" is different from "copied"
14:54<frosch123> <- that lists fish
14:57<supermop>andy, what about a 2 car unit, with only one cab?
14:57<andythenorth>supermop: for railcar or metro?
14:58<supermop>high density emu
14:58<supermop>idea for Iron crane is that higher density emus run on regular rail
14:58<supermop>high speed is segregated instead of metro
14:59<andythenorth>if there’s a good gameplay rationale
15:00<andythenorth>metro represent maximum (ok I made up the actual number) capacity per tile
15:00<andythenorth>if it’s on regular rail, it would be a railcar, single unit
15:00<andythenorth>build more units if you want a longer one
15:01<andythenorth>high speed is unsolved, I wanted to do maglev, but the track sprites are ugly
15:01<andythenorth>monorail is daft
15:01<andythenorth>segregated normal rail....maybe
15:01<supermop>well the idea is japanese narrow gauge
15:02<andythenorth>I suspect that Dan might have half a roster in his head for Japan :)
15:02<andythenorth>you should DM him
15:03<supermop>so it has all the regular freight, and various types of passenger trains on the narrow gauge
15:03<supermop>and then shinkansen is on SG
15:05<andythenorth>might work
15:05<andythenorth>Antelope is similar but standard gauge is heavy freight
15:06<supermop>ideas for balanced monorail based on osaka
15:06<supermop>introduced in 60s/70s
15:06<supermop>trade offs in infrastructure costs etc
15:08<supermop>maglev idk
15:08<supermop>monorail not fast though
15:10<andythenorth>monorail ~= metro in that case
15:12<V453000>I se andythenorth pondering
15:16<supermop>andythenorth: yeah
15:17<supermop>the "metro" is just a higher density emu, as higher density and lower density share trackage
15:17<supermop>monorail is exclusively high density and urban
15:27<supermop>and no monorail locomotives
15:28<supermop>just like 100-200 hp per car
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16:28<supermop>apparently google can't find me a single photo of a pre-1980s tokyo monorail
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17:05<supermop>draft scheme is 61 rail vehicles
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17:20<supermop>up late andythenorth ?
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17:30<Wolf01>\o/ I got the grid items resize to window width when in one column... now I need to set the right sizes for the breakpoints
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17:34<supermop>61 trains over 160 years is ok maybe?
17:36<supermop>almost 4 per decade
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>anyone using KDE's "effects"? i have this annoying thing where when i switch a youtube video to full screen, it slowly fades to black and then back in, which is annoying. but i can't change this anywhere
18:24<Ketsuban>I don't think that's KDE.
18:24<Ketsuban>I think that's Youtube's HTML5 player.
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, it wasn't there in my previous KDE (but there i had "effects" disabled completely)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, is there a way to disable that?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause> this might look useful
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm, not good. that resulted in a completely black screen
18:49<Samu>i found a bug in the ai/game script config window
18:50<Samu>start multiplayer game
18:50<Samu>move yourself to spectator
18:50<Samu>on console resetcompany 1
18:50<Samu>now open the AI window, set max no competitors to 0
18:51<Samu>now the bug happens here: raise the max no competitors to 1
18:51<Samu>the < arrow is still grayed out
18:51<Samu>cannot decrease to 0
18:51<Samu>it fixes itself when the no copetitors is raised to 2
18:54<Samu>tested it on 1.6.0
18:54<Samu>not one of my patched crap
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18:58<Samu>oh, found another bug, still about raising and decreasing max no competitors setting
18:59<Samu>decreasing from 2 to 0, the < arrow won't gray out, meaning i could click it to decrease below 0
18:59<Samu>by clicking it, it grays out
19:00<Samu>this bug doesn't happen when setting it from the main menu
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>well, so it sort of works, but there's still a short black period inbetween
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19:28<Samu>in fact, the reset company step isn't even needed
19:28<Samu>just being in a multiplayer game
19:28<Samu>i'm creating a bug report, brb
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20:05<Samu>bug reported ->
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20:26<sim-al2>>Please help test the release candidate for yet undocumented features
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>is that still "lol"-funny? i heard that term like 20 years ago
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21:27<Absay>Hi. I'd like to know if it would be possible to add a new translation of the game.
21:28<Absay>The language is Mexican Spanish (es_MX), based on the existing Spanish es_ES translation.
21:29<Absay>I already have created my account and emailed the transaltions manager a week ago
21:29<Absay>but he hasn't answered my message yet.
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>that is unlikely to happen at this time of day
21:30<Absay>Well, maybe other day?
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 05 00:00:14 2016