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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-06

---Logopened Wed Apr 06 00:00:15 2016
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02:59<andythenorth>o/
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05:01<Wolf01>o/
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07:04<Samu>hi
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07:06<Samu>is this feature in place? - drag a savegame file and drop it on openttd.exe to have it launch openttd and load that savegame?
07:06<Samu>it would be awesome
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08:25<argoneus>good morning train friends
08:25<V453000>noep
08:26<argoneus>yes
08:31<Samu>hey
08:31<Samu>are savegames compressed with lzma? lzma2? other?
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08:33<Samu>i found it
08:33<Samu>LZMA2:21 CRC-32
08:40<Samu>so, from my testings, savegames can be compressed even further
08:40<Samu>still using lzma2
08:44<Samu>i picked a 119.000 bytes .sav file, uncompressed it to 1.956.990 bytes, then compressed it to 103.918 bytes
08:44<Samu>and still using lzma2 method
08:45<Samu>oh wait, no... method was lzma, not lzma2 :(
08:45<Wolf01>what's your goal?
08:46<Wolf01>(just because I'm curious)
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08:48<MagiCrazy>o/
08:48<MagiCrazy>hi guys !
08:48<MagiCrazy>I'm trying to compile openttd on Alpine/ARM
08:48<MagiCrazy>for a dedicated light server
08:49<MagiCrazy>The compilation runs well
08:49<MagiCrazy>but I get an error about zlib when it's trying to link openttd
08:49<MagiCrazy>I can see there's a workaround for PSP in the Makefile
08:50<Wolf01>I usually disable zlib on windows too, I had the same errors
08:50<MagiCrazy>I wonder if it's the same, the explanation in comments is not that clear
08:50<MagiCrazy>hi Wolf01
08:51<MagiCrazy>disabling on Windows makes sense... but on linux...
08:51<Wolf01>eh, the libraries for the target platforms are available?
08:51<MagiCrazy>yep
08:52<Wolf01>then I have no clue
08:52<MagiCrazy>oh, I was running another test while talking, it seems I found a way !
08:53<MagiCrazy>in the Makefile.src.in file, I added "-lz" to the linking command
08:53<MagiCrazy>$(Q)+$(CXX_HOST) $(LDFLAGS) $(OBJS) $(LIBS) -o $@
08:53<MagiCrazy>becomes
08:53<MagiCrazy>$(Q)+$(CXX_HOST) -lz $(LDFLAGS) $(OBJS) $(LIBS) -o $@
08:53<MagiCrazy>line 273
08:54<Wolf01>hmmm, where's andy when you need him? @work I suppose
08:54<MagiCrazy>would it be a good idea to propose the workaround ?
08:54<MagiCrazy>in a less crappy way ;)
08:57<MagiCrazy>HO YEAH, work !
08:58<MagiCrazy>I'll stay here until day end, in case someone wants to talk to me ;)
08:59<Samu>im still running the whole lzma2 batches to find out the optimal parameters for strongest compression
08:59<Samu>but it looks like lzma will win
08:59<Samu>not lzma2
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09:03<Samu>ew... this is gonna take the whole day
09:03<Samu>running through all lzma parameter combinations
09:04<Samu>lzma2*
09:08<MagiCrazy>what do you want to compress ?
09:09<Samu>openttd savegames
09:09<MagiCrazy>About my issue, I don't get it. I'm trying to run again the build, as I want to automate it, but I can see that configure adds "-lz" in LDFLAGS...
09:09<Samu>currently, an uncompressed .sav
09:09<MagiCrazy>Samu: they're that massive?
09:10<Samu>.sav files are compressed with lzma2:method21
09:10<Samu>I'm now trying to figure out a stronger method
09:11<Samu>but i dont know if devs would change any lzma2 parameters for compressing savegames
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09:16<Wolf01>Samu, I suppose you know that stronger methods may require more cpu/ram or even time, so think about that, and if you only save 15KB I think it's too much work for to little benefit
09:17<Samu>what is the max allowed dictionary size you guys have?
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09:18<MagiCrazy>Samu: where can I find this information ?
09:18<Wolf01>1024MB
09:18<Wolf01>LZMA2
09:18<Wolf01>with 7zip
09:19<MagiCrazy>don't have
09:19<MagiCrazy>I'm on Arch
09:19<MagiCrazy>preset -9 : 64 MB
09:19<Samu>i dont mean your rig, i mean openttd, the 32 bits openttd
09:19<MagiCrazy>ow
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09:20<MagiCrazy>I'm at work, so it's not installed... sorry
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09:20<Wolf01>and where I'm supposed to check that?
09:20<Samu>when openttd saves a game, it specifies a maximum dictionary size for lzma2
09:21<Samu>so as to limit amount of ram use
09:21<Samu>I really have no idea either
09:42<Wolf01>bah, "start developing with XYZ", the first thing I expect from a tutorial is which namespaces I need to import as it can't import them automagically and give meaningful names too
09:47<Samu>a few things are becoming common from these testings
09:47<Samu>multithreaded compression yields less compression
09:47<Samu>word size of 273 yields best compression
09:48<Samu>but it's also the slowest at compressing, of all word sizes options available
09:49<Samu>block size doesn't seem to matter, it's only compressing 1 single file
09:54<Samu>oh, block size it actually matters when the dictionary size is too small
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10:21<supermop>yo
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10:41<Samu>just found out the compression openttd uses is preset -2, this is the default lzma
10:41<Samu>0 would be fastest, 9 would be slowest
10:41<Samu>ottd uses default, and default is 2
10:46<Samu>default method of preset 2 is lzma2
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11:28<Compu>so why doesnt openttd have waterway tunnels?
11:31<MagiCrazy>it seems like a controversial topic =)
11:31<Samu>I see devs have already fiddled with lzma filters and came up with preset 2
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11:32<Compu>er
11:32<Compu>i think the correct term is canal tunnels
11:33<Compu>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_tunnel
11:33<@Alberth>chunnels
11:33<Compu>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standedge_Tunnels
11:33<Compu>just saying, those exist, and would make getting boats into cities a bit easier
11:35<@Alberth>they'd glitch like hell
11:35<Compu>they shouldnt any more than road tunnels should they?
11:36<@Alberth>ever compared size of ship with size of truck?
11:36<@Alberth>in pixels, that is
11:36<Compu>no >.>
11:37<Compu>oh u mean graphical glitches?
11:37<@Alberth>yep
11:37<Compu>as in the ship having part of it out of the tunnel?
11:37<Compu>dont the ships do that with canals anyways?
11:37<Compu>like when they turn
11:37<@Alberth>or next to the tunnel even
11:38<@Alberth>depending on how much raised land there is just next to it
11:38<Compu>i dont think people come to openttd for the graphics >.>
11:41<Samu>i just found out that saving games is not multithreaded :8
11:42<Samu>saving a 4096x4096 game and only using 12~13% of a 8-core cpu
11:44<@Alberth>it is multi-threaded!
11:44<Samu>it wasn't
11:44<@Alberth>map is copied, and playing continues, while a different thread saves the data to disk
11:44<Samu>ah, i mean the task of compressing
11:45<Samu>game was paused
11:45<@Alberth>don't call it "save" then :p
11:45<@Alberth>yes, copy must be done without making any change to the map
11:46<@Alberth>and at such sizes, you will notice a delay
11:47<@Alberth>throwing more cpus at it won't help you much, I think, as you're mostly blocked, waiting for main memory
11:47<Samu>erm, I paused the game, then saved and watched cpu usage
11:49<Compu>could get faster RAM
11:49<Compu>that might help
11:49<@Alberth>nah, CPUs are several 100s times faster
11:49<Compu>i mean
11:49<Compu>the faster RAM can handle faster data transfer
11:49<Compu>which means the copy should go faster
11:49<@Alberth>yes, but still, CPUs are 100s times faster
11:50<Compu>yes but the copy is do FROM ram
11:50<Compu>done*
11:50<@Alberth>and TO ram too
11:50<Compu>so the RAM speed is the bottleneck here
11:50<@Alberth>but CPUs are 100s times faster
11:50<Compu>yeah stop repeating that
11:51<@Alberth>double the memory speed, and you gain less than 1%
11:51<@Alberth>in cpu time
11:51<Samu>lol compu, it was only using 1 core for compressing the save
11:51<Compu>u do know the definition of bottleneck, right>
11:51<Samu>i got 8, it could use all them
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11:51<Samu>it would be at best 8 times faster
11:51<Compu>Samu: do u really need it to tho?
11:51<@Alberth>sure, but with an order of magnitude difference, faster memory makes no difference
11:52<Compu>it depends on whats needed
11:52<Compu>for most things unless ur using the main RAM as graphics RAM too the RAM speed doesnt matter
11:53<Compu>because most things wont benefit from the RAM being able to transfer data quicker
11:53<Compu>but ur saying its copying from ram and back to ram
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11:53<Compu>that is one of the rare cases where faster ram would make a difference
11:54<Compu>the RAM speed is the bottleneck there
11:56<@Alberth>using a 2048x4096 map goes much faster in speed up
11:56<@Alberth>1/2 the data -> 200% gain
11:56<@Alberth>or rather 100% gain
11:56<Compu>thats true as well
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11:57<Compu>Alberth: 200% the speed
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12:00<Wolf01>we should save in the CPU, maybe one day CPUs will come with 16GB cache, so no more RAM required
12:02<Wolf01>mmmmh, I'm stuck again with this adaptive layout :|
12:02<frosch123>just copy the stuff to /dev/null
12:02<Wolf01>quak
12:02<frosch123>it's quite fast and big
12:02<supermop>Wolf01: by that time people will be playing 17GB maps
12:02<Compu>by the time CPUs have 16 GB caches we'll have 4 TB RAM size as basic minimum
12:02<Wolf01>eh, but you have to copy from ram first, which is the bottleneck as we stated
12:02<Compu>and 10 petabyte SSDs
12:03<Compu>we have, what 16 MB caches now?
12:04<Wolf01>sort of, yes
12:04<Compu>back in the DOS days u could run DOS and games and even windows 3.11 with just that amount as RAM
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12:04<Wolf01>even 2MB
12:04<Compu>back then CPUs had 1 KB caches
12:05<Wolf01>my 386 had 8MB of ram, expanded to 16 after some years
12:05<Compu>woo im tycoon of the century on this server
12:05<Compu>coming up on $300,000,000
12:05<Compu>with 5 trains and a boat
12:05<Compu>making $10,000,000 each year
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12:06<Wolf01>sometimes when I need to boost I'll borrow the entire amount and purchase one plane, build 2 airports and fast forward 2 years
12:07<Wolf01>then I return the money and start playing :P
12:07<Compu>:P
12:08<Compu>i start with 1 train, pay off my bank loan, and then go from there
12:08<Wolf01>too slow
12:08<Compu>slowly making super complicated tracks :D
12:09<Compu>https://www.dropbox.com/s/9i566zel24glk2o/combined256.png?dl=0 this was 50 years ago in game
12:09<Wolf01>I usually start with ships ^^
12:10<Wolf01>if I find the perfect place, I can have a fleet of ships before the 5th year
12:10<Compu>i've since expanded and everything is maglev now
12:10<Compu>i moved the depots back
12:11<Compu>put to 1 way lines (1 going in and 1 going out) to the depots
12:11<Compu>s/to/2
12:11<Compu>that way the trains going into the depots dont slow down trains on the main line so much
12:12<Compu>since the depot speed limit is 38 MPH and i have trains going at 400 MPH
12:15<Wolf01>yes, that's the standard solution, dedicated acceleration/deceleration lanes
12:24<Compu>i also do 1 way lines for the entire route
12:24<Compu>like everywhere
12:24<Compu>everything is 1 way tracks
12:24<Compu>makes things easier to manage
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12:31<@Alberth>also standard, as one way track increases through put a lot
12:31<Wolf01>meh, null reference error :|
12:31<Wolf01>*null pointer
12:33<MagiCrazy>haha
12:33<MagiCrazy>thx guys =)
12:33<MagiCrazy>cya !
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12:34<Wolf01>I have a great desire to define 11 breakpoints, one for each screen size instead of just 3 for different devices :|
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12:35<Wolf01>and I'm lucky there isn't andy here because he would have slapped the shit out of me
12:43<@Alberth>just let everything call a void silly_function() {} :p
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27535 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2016-04-06 19:45:35 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian (bokmal): 16 changes by Leifbk
13:48<Samu>ok, so...
13:48<Samu>2^21 = 2 MB dictionary size
13:49<Samu>openttd saves with a dictionary size of 2 MB
13:50<Samu>but it's only using lzma2 in single-thread
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13:54<Samu>options->nice_len = level <= 1 ? 128 : 273;
13:55<Samu>level in the case of openttd is = 2
13:55<Samu>nice_len = 2 <= 1 ? 128 : 273 - what the hell is the result?
13:56<+glx>the result is nice_len = 273
13:56<Samu>really? that's weird
13:56<+glx>it's just the ?: operator
13:57<+glx>test ? true : false
13:57<Samu>preset 2 using a word size of 273? 273 is slow, i must be looking at this wrong
14:00<Samu>it should be 32, according to 7-zip
14:00<Samu>not 273
14:00<Samu>but 7-zip is a different program
14:09<Samu>http://gsp.com/cgi-bin/man.cgi?topic=lzma#3 - scrolling down to the table
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14:21<Samu>what is the liblzma version you use on openttd?
14:23<Samu>version 5.2.0 supports multithreaded, though not recomended for production use, whatever that means
14:23<Wolf01>that means you should not use it on ottd
14:23<Samu>:)
14:24<Samu>5.2.0 and up
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14:25<Samu>liblzma 5.2.1
14:26<Samu>so openttd uses 5.2.1
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14:26<Samu>5.2.2 is the latest version
14:26<Samu>that means.... cool stuff
14:27<Wolf01>bah, I don't get how to work with this stuff, it throws errors everywhere or it just doesn't work
14:28<Samu>a crash report however reports LZMA: 5.0.4
14:28<Samu>which one is correct?
14:28<Samu>5.2.1 or 5.0.4?
14:35<@Alberth>just what is available at build time, probably
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15:00<Samu>extern LZMA_API(uint32_t) lzma_cputhreads(void) lzma_nothrow;
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15:11<andythenorth>o/
15:17<@Alberth>o/
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15:34<supermop>yo andythenorth
15:35<andythenorth>hi
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15:39<Wolf01>o/
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16:09<@Alberth>good night
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16:21<Samu>released a patch: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74694 - I'd like to hear some suggestions on it.
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18:50<drac_boy>hi
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19:04<drac_boy>quat...roking? heh?
19:04<sim-al2>wat
19:07<drac_boy>dunno what kind of nick that is
19:08<drac_boy>but either way how're you? and do you have snow too?? weird that its like winter all over again here :-|
19:08<sim-al2>I'm good, and lol no, 70 degrees and thunderstorms
19:08<sim-al2>Crazy crazy lighting earlier, but now it's sunny again...
19:08<Wolf01>quatro king maybe... but we used to misread it as quack rotting
19:09<drac_boy>well its snowing nonstop for more than six hours here .. already causing weird car problems (mainly out of idiotic drivers...nothing new meh)
19:10<drac_boy>and tomorrow will creep to just a little bit over 0C .. which means rain all day long too :-/
19:10<Wolf01>20°C here
19:12<sim-al2>Well it did drop a bit here, now it's 15°C
19:12<drac_boy>anyway anything new trains-wise?
19:13<sim-al2>Found a fun pair of lines in Tokyo, Tokyu Ikegami Line and Tamagawa Line: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Tokyu_7600_classic.JPG
19:14<sim-al2>The old stock is pretty cool, new type is a bit aestheically questionable: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/T%C5%8Dky%C5%AB_7000_series_%28II%29_EMU_7101f.jpg
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19:18<sim-al2>Short trains, but it connects important transfer stations and provides local transit: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Tokyu_Electric_Railway_7600-7653.jpg
19:18<drac_boy>heh actually thats something I always never understood privately...why replace easy-to-make smooth metal front with a more complex use-more-materials front that doesn't ahve much purpose outside modifying the paint lines?
19:18<drac_boy>to our own anyway
19:19<sim-al2>New technology makes it cheaper, and that nose is a covering for enhanced crash protection anyway
19:20<drac_boy>cheap != eco .. thats all I can say
19:21<drac_boy>and I've found some photos of rather bad sideswipe crash that hadn't done much damage to the budd rdc's interior
19:21<drac_boy>like I said: to our own thoughts
19:21<Wolf01>'night
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19:22<drac_boy>come to think about it hi-beam or container wagons have caused a small but sizeable number of injuried engineers on adjacent tracks (incoming swipes at the cab window corner yep, funny how the cargo load more than often misses the entire bleeping nose anyway!)
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19:30<sim-al2>Tokyu has another train design (very very similar except for the exterior btw) with a interesting design: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Tokyu6000%282%29.jpg
19:30<sim-al2>Well, it is built to a longer length and 4 doors like most other Toyku lines
19:32<drac_boy>http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k162/wheeler1963/CSXT4511LouisvilleKYosbornydFeb1019.jpg not easy to find non-derailed crashes but here you go, look at that perfectly preserved nose!
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19:50<drac_boy>gone a little quiet here
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20:08<drac_boy>ah *pokes the silly guest-sim*
20:08<sim-al2>Yeah, going to nap
20:09<sim-al2>Computer decided to go to sleep because I walked away for a few minutes
20:11<drac_boy>have fun? ;)
20:12<sim-al2>Yeah, low fever again :/
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>better than high fever...
20:13<sim-al2>True, not fun though
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22:51<Eddi|zuHause>Device: /dev/sdd [SAT], 648 Currently unreadable (pending) sectors ... uh-oh
23:09<Eddi|zuHause>weird, it reports 0 reallocated sectors
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 07 00:00:17 2016