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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-07

---Logopened Thu Apr 07 00:00:17 2016
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01:40<Eearslya>Eddi|zuHause: Probably means you caught it early enough that there's no chance of data loss, which is good
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03:00<andythenorth>o/
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05:42<Samu>hi, i got some results from the lzma testings yesterday
05:43<Samu>nice_len: a value of 273 here yields best compression
05:44<Samu>openttd lzma implementation is only single-threaded
05:44<Samu>openttd lzma implementation is also only using 2 MB for dictionary
05:45<Samu>dictionary size is one of the greatest contribution to the resulting compressed size
05:45<Samu>the size should be based on the uncompressed size of the stream
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05:47<Samu>on the example case I used a ~ 1.9MB uncompressed, a 2 MB dictionary resulted in the best compression ratio, any dictionary size higher than 2 MB was useless, it was always resulting in the same size
05:48<Samu>openttd could have some code to adapt the dictionary size to be a bit more dynamic, instead of just 2 MB for every case
05:49<Samu>and... pretty much that's it
05:52<peter1138>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmDb8ozcXc
05:54<Samu>lego?
06:09<Samu>wish i could understand what they're talking about here https://sourceforge.net/p/lzmautils/discussion/708858/thread/e40fbf99/
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06:09<Wolf01>o/
06:09<Samu>hi
06:12<Wolf01>how's going with the compression?
06:15<Samu>i got the results, I know what are the best parameters, i just don't know how to code this in openttd ( as usual)
06:16<Samu>openttd is using an easy encoding approach, it lacks customization on the important parameters I mentioned a few minutes ago
06:17<Samu>dict_size, nice_len - these are 2 of the most important ones
06:19<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a1MwrWP_460s.jpg wetrails
06:20<Samu>the easy encoding approach is using pre-defined presets, from 0 to 9. Each preset has their own set of parameters
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06:20<Samu>openttd devs explicitly decided to use preset 2 of lzma
06:23<Samu>http://tukaani.org/xz/xz-javadoc/org/tukaani/xz/LZMA2Options.html#LZMA2Options(int, int, int, int, int, int, int, int)
06:24<Samu>oops wrong link
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06:39<Samu>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/saveload/saveload.cpp;h=b1a21844f355fc18dfb1b80f7b01e8df33a2b202;hb=9a5db2063b513a606f9652d580f2a35dfbbba4d6#l2345
06:40<Samu>line 2370 sets the preset 2 for default_compression
06:41<Samu>and line 2426 retrieves default_compression which is 2
06:47<Samu>simply putting a 9 in there isn't enough, it doesn't necessarily lets me to chose the nice_len
06:47<Samu>nice_len for preset 9 is 128.
06:48<Samu>lacks customization :(
06:48<Wolf01>the problem is that I don't even understand why you need to compress more the savegames
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06:53<peter1138>this
06:54<peter1138>have you built yourself a lego particle accelerator yet andythenorth?
06:54<andythenorth>hasn’t everyone?
06:54<andythenorth>ha it’s pretty good
06:55<Samu>well, it started when i found out that openttd savegames was only using 12-13% cpu out of my 8-core cpu, decided to investigate
06:55<Samu>turns out, lzma implementation in openttd doesn't support multi-thread, so i went to find other options
06:58<Samu>i guess my research is pointless
07:03<Samu>the task of compressing the savegame could greatly benefit from multi-thread, especially on maps sized 4096x4096
07:04<Samu>but my research went into another direction... yeah, I lost focus
07:08<Wolf01>is the compression done on the "game" thread or the "save" thread?
07:11<Samu>Alberth said it starts a separate thread just for the compression task, not sure what that means
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07:11<Samu>game keeps running, while compression does its thing
07:12<Wolf01>ok, then time is not a problem here
07:12<Wolf01>I think the thing that should be improved is the memory-to-memory copying, maybe it could be possible to use more threads to read from the map with 256x256 chunks each one, so you should have the same time on each map size (it depends how many threads your CPU supports)
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07:22<Wolf01>V453000, lol, http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aBYo6ZA_460s_v2.jpg
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>only 200 hours :p
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07:35<Wolf01>heh, I still haven't beat that time, I have just 140 hours summing different savegames
07:49<Wolf01>I'm in that weird part of the internet again...
07:50<Wolf01>after Thomas the Tank... Murphy the Tank: http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a3Bn3Nm_460s.jpg
07:53<andythenorth>random
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09:18<nodownload>heya guys
09:18<nodownload>i tried downloading openttd today but i got a timeout on the downloads for all sets
09:18<nodownload>anyone have a mirror?
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>mirrors are linked on the main page
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>under "contact"
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no, it only lists them, not with links...
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>who thought that was a bright idea?
09:20<nodownload>^^
09:21<nodownload>someone?
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>usually <countrycode>.binaries.openttd.org
09:25<nodownload>nl did pop me the TU Twente site, but no download link, just a blank page
09:25<nodownload>but it works so thanks
09:28<@planetmaker>The mirrors don't necessarily have a browsable website
09:28<@planetmaker>nodownload, can you tell *which* mirror you were directed to, which one failed?
09:29<nodownload>france
09:29<nodownload>fr.binaries.openttd.org failed or timed out
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10:23<Samu>do you know of a file manager that can sort a list of files by the difference of date time of creation with date time of modification?
10:24<Samu>(to find out which compression method took more time)
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10:30<Samu>Alberth hi
10:30<@Alberth>o/
10:31<Samu>when i click save, what happens before compression starts? I noticed some big hiccup of about 4~5 seconds before compression actually takes place
10:32<@Alberth>copying the map
10:32<Samu>this part must be synced with the game
10:33<Samu>any way to speed this up?
10:33<Samu>Wolf01 spoke of memory copy, chunks and stuff I don't understand
10:37<Samu>after this big stall, it starts "* *saving game * *" = the compression itself
10:37<Samu>i used a 4096x4096 map, the stall is very noticeable here
10:39<@Alberth>@calc 4096 * 4096
10:39<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 16777216
10:39<@Alberth>that's a lot of tiles
10:39<@Alberth>Don't know the size of a single tile
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>used to be 9 bytes
10:41<@Alberth>it still is, according to landscape.html
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10:42<@Alberth>@calc 4096 * 4096 * 9
10:42<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 150994944
10:42<@Alberth>that many bytes must be copied.
10:46<Samu>167 MB (175.625.682 bytes)
10:47<Samu>what could be the other 25 mbs?
10:48<@Alberth>chunk headers, save game versions, newgrf lists, configuration data
10:49<@Alberth>lzma headers
10:49<@Alberth>and crc, probably
10:50<Samu>hmm interesting
10:51<Samu>ok, one thing I noticed, some compression methods are faster than this copying
10:52<Samu>memory copying
10:52<Samu>even faster if it could be multi-threaded
10:55<Samu>[12:12] <Wolf01> I think the thing that should be improved is the memory-to-memory copying, maybe it could be possible to use more threads to read from the map with 256x256 chunks each one, so you should have the same time on each map size (it depends how many threads your CPU supports)
11:06<@Alberth>you primed the cpu cache :p
11:07<@Alberth>but yeah, you could try throwing several threads at copying the map
11:08<@Alberth>not sure if it helps, since the slow part is the memory itself
11:08<Flygon_>Remember when 64k was enough?
11:08<Flygon_>:D
11:08-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
11:08<Flygon>I don't. I'm too young.
11:08<Flygon>But dammit! 16mbytes should be enough for any Windows computer!
11:08<@Alberth>64K?? woo, I used to have 32K including the screen
11:08<Flygon>Game Boy?
11:08<Flygon>:B
11:09<Wolf01>that was 8
11:09<Flygon>Oh
11:09<@Alberth>which could be 20K on its own, leaving me with a whopping 12K memory :)
11:09<Flygon>Well, I'm 90% sure the GBC had 64kb <_>
11:09<Wolf01>(iirc)
11:09<Flygon>As did the Nomad
11:09<Flygon>iunnolol
11:10<@Alberth>I had a BBC B micro computer
11:10<@Alberth>nice basic, and assembly language too
11:10<Samu>the copying was only using 12% cpu
11:10<@Alberth>Samu: yep 1 of 8 cores :p
11:11<Samu>the compression also, but that's another story
11:12<@Alberth>one thing to keep in mind is that some computers have only a single core
11:12<@Alberth>openttd should work there too
11:13<@Alberth>possibly less fast, but it should work
11:13<Samu>the only tests i could do were single-threaded
11:14<Samu>some compressors methods openttd have, like lzo and zlib, are faster than the 4096x4096 map copy thing
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11:14<Samu>that means, less than 4~5 seconds
11:15<Samu>(but the resulting save file is quite large)
11:15<@Alberth>bad if you want to send it over the network in MP :)
11:16<supermop>hi
11:16<@Alberth>hi ho
11:17<Samu>so i see
11:20<Samu>who has ubuntu? i dont feel like installing ubuntu for this
11:21<Samu>i see that ubuntu as a "ls" command that lists up to the milisecond date time of creation and date time of modification of files
11:21<Samu>has a*
11:22<Samu>windows only lists up to the minute :(
11:22<@Alberth>"ls" is a GNU program that all Linuces have
11:23<Wolf01>install the git console tools and you have a lot of unix commands in the windows' console too
11:23<Samu>git console tools
11:24<Samu>this? https://git-scm.com/downloads
11:24<Wolf01>just install git for windows and select console tools too
11:25<Wolf01>it even support coloring
11:25<Wolf01>too bad no mc :(
11:27<Samu>no idea what to donwload :(
11:27<@Alberth>"install git for windows" I think
11:28<Samu>portable?
11:28<Wolf01>"install"
11:28<Samu>:( install with ruin windows command prompt
11:28<Wolf01>no
11:29<@Alberth>Samu: it says "for windows", how can it be portable? :p
11:29<Samu>Git for Windows Portable ("thumbdrive edition")
11:29<Wolf01>the command prompt does not change at all
11:30<Wolf01>I think it will just add the path of the commands to %PATH%
11:30<supermop>guy on forum is right - not enough servers with newgrfs
11:35<Wolf01>btw, does somebody knows how to change the default switches to the ls command of the git command line tools? I would like "--color --full-time -h"
11:37<andythenorth>some kind of git config?
11:37<andythenorth>or alias it in your bash profile?
11:37*andythenorth obviously doesn’t know
11:39<@Alberth>afaik only by making a new command, like ln (ls nice) in an alias
11:40<Wolf01>ln is already for links
11:40<@Alberth>I mean git ln
11:41<Wolf01>I don't mean git, I mean "ls"
11:41<@Alberth>ah, right, I see
11:41<Wolf01>ls.exe in my case :)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i would imagine there'd be an environment variable for that
11:43<Samu>http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/2464/timestamp-modification-time-and-created-time-of-a-file
11:43<Samu>look at that last answer
11:43<Wolf01>only the bin folder in %PATH%
11:44<@Alberth>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/coreutils.html#Directory-listing <-- ls manual
11:44<Wolf01>not applicable, samu, I'm on windows and I know how to write the switches by hand, I'm just lazy :)
11:47<Samu>bah, it's the stat command?
11:50<@Alberth>looks like it supplies enough information :)
11:50<Wolf01>it seem that the only env variables are to format dates and locale for ordering
11:51<@Alberth>nah, dircolor definitely works too
11:52<Wolf01>yes, the switches do work, I just don't want to type them every time
11:52<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pf2yfu0dm <= stuff like this
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11:53<Wolf01>I'm used to "ls -la" not to "ls -lah --color --full-time"
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>"Time stamps are listed according to the time zone rules specified by the TZ environment variable, or by the system default rules if TZ is not set. See Specifying the Time Zone with TZ in The GNU C Library Reference Manual."?
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11:56<Wolf01>nah, I just want --color and --full-time automatically enabled
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>there is definitely a variable for colour
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>http://ss64.com/bash/lsenv.html
11:58<Wolf01>isn't that to change the colors used for the different entries?
11:59<Samu> ls --full-time -u
11:59<Samu> ls --full-time
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>you can also probably do dos-style macros, like linux aliases
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12:03<Samu>ok i got what i wanted, now i just have to calculate this times manually
12:03<Samu>these*
12:04<Samu>and it will result the total time it took to compress
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12:06<Wolf01>mmmh, I don't get how to set the env vars, it does seem to ignore everything (yes I know how to set vars and that I need to open a new terminal after that)
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>i can't help you with that
12:11<Wolf01>bah, on linux is easy, I'll wait for the ubuntu subsystem :P
12:18<Wolf01>ok back to my brainfucking session of UWP
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12:22<Samu>so i was wrong about lzo and zlib about being faster than memory copy
12:22<Samu>they're about equal
12:22<Wolf01>they both work with memory, what do you expect?
12:22<Samu>still calculating the rest of zlib brb
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12:32<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/psytpxpjb - I put the total time to compress at the last column, in seconds.
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12:42<Samu>hmm how much time in seconds is a day in openttd game?
12:42<Samu>i always forget
12:42<Samu>if autosave is monthly
12:43<peter1138>2.something
12:43<peter1138>autosave has no bearing in it
12:44<Samu>some servers don't pause while saving
12:44<Samu>would a player that joins a server wait ~75 seconds for the server to prepare a savefile to send?
12:45<Samu>and then wait even more to download it?
12:45<Samu>download a 10 MB file
12:46<Samu>load it, play fastforward to catch up with the server which never paused
12:46<Samu>hmm :(
12:46<@planetmaker>that's what happens normally, yes
12:46<Samu>what if the client also have autosave enabled ?
12:47<@planetmaker>why would the server mind?
12:48<Samu>when fast forwarding to catch up with the server, would it trigger the autosave?
12:49<Samu>not sure how it works
12:49<peter1138>Sensible map sizes don't have these problems.
12:49<Samu>when i play single player fast-forwading games, i know autosave turns down the speed to normal
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12:50<peter1138>no it doesn't
12:55<Wolf01>uh oh, I've done a terrible mistake... I don't know in which order are the handlers of an event executed :/
12:55<Samu>gonna try something dumb
12:55<Samu>brb
13:00<Samu>hmm this error is misleading
13:00<Samu>"the last 8 seconds no data from the server bla bla"
13:00<Samu>this is the stalling
13:00<Samu>i mentioned
13:05<Samu>disabling the autosave from the server, removes this stalling
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13:06<Samu>strange
13:08<+glx>saving can take a long time
13:09<Samu>the stalling only happens with autosave
13:09<Samu>but not when a client joins
13:09<Samu>well, not really this
13:09<+glx>because pause on join maybe
13:09<Samu>ok, let me explain better
13:09<Samu>got 1 server, 2 clients
13:10<Samu>server is with disabled autosave, and with 1 client in it
13:10<Samu>now the other client joins the server
13:10<Samu>there is still a stall, but not as significant as the autosave stall
13:10<Samu>server doesn't pause on join
13:11<Samu>the first client does pause briefly, but won't trigger "the last xx seconds error"
13:12<Samu>with autosave enabled on the server, "last xx seconds" pops up on the client
13:13<Samu>what's different between the two save methods? autosave and a client entering the server?
13:18<Samu>Client #16 is dropped because it took longer than 500 ticks to join
13:18<Samu>500 ticks in real time seconds
13:18<Samu>is 500/72?
13:19<@Alberth>FAQ lists the number
13:19<+glx>74 I think
13:20<Samu>@faq
13:20<+glx>but wiki should know
13:20<Samu>ok, brb
13:21<+glx>hmm no a day is 74 ticks
13:21<+glx>ticks/s depends on cpu and game complexity
13:26<Samu>hmm, there should be a time calculator for this
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13:29<Samu>if my upload is 3 Mbps, the save i have to send is about 15 MB, how many seconds does it take to upload?
13:30<+glx>less than 5s I think
13:31<@Alberth>Mbps is Mega bits / s, ie 0.3 MB/s
13:31<+glx>oh 40s
13:31<@planetmaker>glx, OpenTTD should run at 30ticks/s
13:31<+glx>my math was wrong
13:31<@planetmaker>hm, no 0.03 seconds per tick rather
13:31<@planetmaker>@calc 1/0.03
13:31<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 33.3333333333
13:32<+glx>ideally yes
13:32<+glx>but add some boats or many vehicles, on a big map ;)
13:32<Samu>40 * 72
13:32<Samu>oh, 74
13:32<@planetmaker>it will only slow down, if the cpu is insufficient for the map. Or rather the map size and vehicle count for the cpu
13:32<Samu>ok, let's put 3000 ticks for download time
13:33<+glx>enable pause on join can help
13:33<Samu>pause on join is meh
13:34<@planetmaker>pause on join is required, if your server has a slow connection
13:34<@planetmaker>thus if the map cannot be transferred to the clients in a timely fashion
13:34<@planetmaker>large maps and a server run from home likely won't do the trick without a decent join time and a pause on join
13:34<Samu>i need a volunteer with big download rate to join my server, see if it's enough for him to get in
13:35<Samu>https://www.openttd.org/en/server/98619
13:35<Samu>can only join as spectator, too many AIs in it
13:35<@planetmaker>well, you should know your *upload* speed and you can do some math, can you?
13:36<Samu>network.max_download_time = 3000 currently
13:36<@planetmaker>that map is HUGE. 3 seconds for upload? Can your line handle to upload 100MB in 3 seconds?
13:36<+glx>and 3Mbps upload is better than usual adsl
13:37<Samu>i'm trying to figure out
13:38<+glx>but still slower than usual adsl download
13:39<Samu>https://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_multiplayer it isn't too clear
13:40<Samu>max_join_time vs max_lag_time
13:40<Samu>on a server that doesnt pause on join
13:40<+glx>lag is during game
13:41<Samu>is the stalling lag accounted?
13:41<+glx>join is to do all actions other clients have done after save and during download
13:41<+glx>stalling is the server only
13:42<Samu>ok, let's try some number
13:42<@planetmaker>Samu, my client could receive 6 MByte from you before the connection was closed
13:42<Samu>ty
13:42<@planetmaker>thus the download of that map would take FAAAAAAAAAAAR longer
13:43<@planetmaker>and would take a time, no client ever could catch up with
13:43<Samu>the save is about 12 MB, so, 3000 ticks isnt enough
13:43<Samu>gonna put 6500 ticks
13:43<Samu>brb
13:44<Samu>ok 6500 now, the catch up time is counted as max_lag_time, right?
13:45<+glx>catch up time is join time
13:45<+glx>lag time is for after catch up
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27536 /trunk/src/lang (belarusian.txt malay.txt) (2016-04-07 19:45:37 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian: 1 change by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay: 1 change by rionix88
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13:46<Samu>oh 6500 + catch up time
13:46<Samu>9500 maybe?
13:46<+glx>that's why pause on join is highly recommended
13:46<Samu>gonna try 9500
13:47<Samu>planetmaker: volunteer wanted!
13:47<Samu>keks
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13:52<Birko>Hello, can somebody help me with RailPathFinder? Is it possible to have source tile or goal tile on tile, where already is rail? I am trying to build rail crossing, but railpathfinder build nothing if source tile or goal tile is on tile with some rail
13:53<Samu>arf, can't simulate a 3 mbps connection
13:58<supermop>yo
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14:06<Birko>Here si picture of my problem with RailPathFinder https://www.dropbox.com/s/kjfvf0keq4durlb/railpathfinder.jpg?dl=0 .. I need to build both railways. It builds only one according to which is the first in code. What should I do pls? thanks
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14:12<Birko>RailPathFinder expects a tile without any rail transport type?
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14:20<andythenorth>o/
14:20<@Alberth>hi hi
14:21<andythenorth>so FIRS should check for vehicles that can arry cargos? o_O
14:21<andythenorth>not sure that’s feasible eh
14:21<@Alberth>I tried that once in openttd c++, and failed on "not pax" like vehicles :p
14:22*andythenorth won’t be trying it
14:22<andythenorth>in principle it just means running the refits for all vehicles in all newgrfs, and checking each cargo is transportable somehow
14:22<andythenorth>but ‘meh'
14:22<@Alberth>at best you can detect not a known vehicle set, and warn about it
14:23<@Alberth>"you are not using road hog or iron horse, we recommend you use one of those" :p
14:23<andythenorth>harsh
14:23<andythenorth>but
14:23<andythenorth>:P
14:24<andythenorth>fair
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14:24<supermop>hi andythenorth
14:25<andythenorth>lo supermop
14:25<supermop>include a wheelbarrow in firs
14:26<supermop>refits to one unit of any cargo, moves at 3 mph
14:26<supermop>problem solved
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14:27<supermop>one pax can sit in the barrow
14:27<andythenorth>hmm
14:27<andythenorth>_could_ refit all the default vehicles
14:27<andythenorth>but meh
14:27<andythenorth>bugger that
14:29<supermop>nah
14:30<supermop>just the bus, a factory worker can buy a ticket and carry a sack of grain onboard as luggage
14:31<supermop>there arent any japanese road vehicles, huh
14:31<andythenorth>dekatora
14:32<andythenorth>supermop: but where do the dog and the goose sit?
14:32<supermop>other than some trams in 2cc tram set
14:32<supermop>ha
14:34<supermop>bright and lit up japanese trucks in road hog?
14:34<supermop>what was your previous truck endeavor andythenorth ?
14:35<andythenorth>Bandit
14:35<andythenorth>full of bad ideas
14:37<supermop>Bad Ideas Renewal Set
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14:51<@Alberth>baddit :p
14:51<supermop>any thoughts on crane roster?
14:53<andythenorth>supermop: first thought is, I need to reinstall open office?
14:54<andythenorth>nah I’ve found a text editor that can read it
14:54<supermop>hah should i have saved it as xls? i didnt know if you'd have office
14:54<andythenorth>nah it’s fine
14:55<andythenorth>I’d delete 50% of it :)
14:55<+glx>just use csv ;)
14:55<Wolf01>o/ andy
14:55<supermop>i'd like to cull most of the locomotives
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14:55<andythenorth>23 EMUs is about 19 too many imho :)
14:56<supermop>because i find differentiation in locomotives super boring esp. in this context
14:56<supermop>andythenorth: japan is EMU land?
14:56<andythenorth>I know, but still
14:56<supermop>what do you think abt having the different categories of MUs?
14:57<supermop>and having HSR as an EMU
14:59<supermop>but yeah cutting half sems reasonable any ideas as to which half?
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15:07<andythenorth>supermop: try giving the commuter EMUs meaningfully different stats between 1970 and 2015, that will give you part of the answer ;)
15:08<supermop>have yet to think about hp/speed/capacity yet
15:08<andythenorth>it starts to become obvious if you only do meaningful upgrades
15:08<andythenorth>what’s the highest plausible speed for standard EMUs?
15:09<supermop>just rough qualities, category A is slower than B, category B is slower loading etc
15:09<supermop>hmm
15:09<supermop>in japan idk but for gameplay in general i'd say around 100mph
15:09<andythenorth>I’d guess anything up to 125, you can always cheat
15:09<supermop>urban ones maybe 60
15:10<supermop>hmm
15:10<supermop>ok
15:10<supermop>200 kmh is nice round number
15:10<supermop>urban emus should have similar speed but improve in capacity
15:11<supermop>otherwise you have to rework very tight scheduling every decade
15:11<andythenorth>lowest plausible speed is 25mph, and that’s pushing it, in 1860
15:11<andythenorth>I’d say 45mph is better
15:11<supermop>yeah
15:11<supermop>80kmh is the slowest i ever tolerate in a game
15:15<andythenorth>smallest worthwhile increment is 10mph, 15mph is better
15:15<andythenorth>0mph is also ok, anything less than 10mph messes your network up for no gain
15:15<supermop>yeah
15:16<andythenorth>capacity increases of less than 15px are tedious
15:16<andythenorth>pax *
15:17<supermop>idea: shinkansen emu 1 door per car, express emu 2, commuter 3, metro 5
15:18<andythenorth>for Iron Horse, for MUs, I can’t imagine adding anything other than single unit railcars (preferably 8/8), or twin-unit (1 tile)
15:18<andythenorth>shinkansen might be another story
15:18<supermop>ok
15:18<andythenorth>or shinkansen could work like cargo sprinter, magically grows
15:18<supermop>ha
15:18<andythenorth>cargo sprinter always has just two cabs
15:18<supermop>there is a cargo sprinter in IH?
15:18<andythenorth>in the brit roster
15:19<andythenorth>you want to do the japanese electric version?
15:19<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M250_series
15:19<supermop>yeah sure
15:19<supermop>or a fictionalized version
15:20<Wolf01>http://rebrickable.com/mocs/aimee.a.wright/industrial-maglev-engine
15:21<andythenorth>what is gameplay difference between express / commuter / metro EMUs?
15:22<frosch123>Alberth: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pth640lq6 <- there are a bunch of projects which lack plural/case/gender information
15:22<frosch123>do you agree that it should be fine to just add the default setup, when there is no information?
15:23<frosch123>i.e. no custom plural/gender/case -> eints adds default plural/gender/case for language
15:23<supermop>speed+comfort vs capacity+load speed
15:24<andythenorth>I’d merge at least two of those together
15:24<andythenorth>as classes
15:24<supermop>hmm
15:25<@Alberth>frosch123: seems fine to me
15:25<supermop>what if first emu is "commuter" and at some point commuter forks into express vs metro
15:26<andythenorth>supermop: another way to look at it….you want to get the main roster (narrow gauge) into 25 or less (preferably less)
15:26<andythenorth>there are easy choices to cut: remove all the diesels
15:26<supermop>yeah fuck those guys
15:26<andythenorth>and don’t have express electrics if this roster prefers EMUs
15:27<supermop>do players need slow cheap non-electric freight?
15:27<andythenorth>how early can you electrify?
15:27<supermop>1930s earliest reasonable
15:27<andythenorth>I’d go earlier
15:28<andythenorth>if the roster is all-electric after a certain date, it’s annoying to convert a large already-built netwotk
15:28<andythenorth>netwotk :P
15:29<supermop>they still were pretty heavy into steam for 5-10 years after the war
15:29<supermop>diesels mostly for hokkaido and kyushu
15:31<andythenorth>I’d steal from this and go for about 1905 for electrics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hankyu
15:31<andythenorth>or can off the electric locos and keep the diesels
15:31<supermop>yeah im fine with that
15:33<andythenorth>for freight, from 1950-2010, you can get away with 3 large (2000HP+) and 1 small diesel (1000hp or so)
15:33<andythenorth>or equivalent electrics
15:33<Samu>8 bits = 1 byte
15:33<andythenorth>possibly just 2 large ones
15:33<supermop>i just worry about someone starting a game in 1960 and they need a short little cheap train to pick up a small amt of cargo from a non-gungho farm
15:34<andythenorth>1000hp diesel
15:34<supermop>andythenorth: japan effectively only had 3 diesels in that era
15:34<andythenorth>or trucks
15:34<andythenorth>is freight fast, slow, or middling?
15:35<supermop>slow
15:35<andythenorth>fast is like Iron Pony, 85mph+
15:35<andythenorth>slow is 55mph
15:35<supermop>slow
15:35<andythenorth>it’s narrow gauge, I’d keep it slow
15:35<andythenorth>so you only really need 2 diesels for that, a big one and a small one
15:37<supermop>slow light road switcher in 1950
15:37<supermop>bigger carbody or switcher in 1960
15:38<supermop>then maybe a more efficient small general hybrid in 2010+
15:38<supermop>no DMUs?
15:38<andythenorth>do a bi-mode loco in 1980s+
15:38<Wolf01>guru question: does a service locator makes sense with named services? or I could just rely on the service class type?
15:38<andythenorth>there’s code for locos to switch power by railtype
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15:39<supermop>andythenorth: switch running cost?
15:39<andythenorth>can’t remember
15:40<andythenorth>I would ignore DMUs
15:40<Samu>3 Mbps = 375 KB/s
15:40<andythenorth>maybe something like single-unit electric railcars, slow, 8/8 long, refittable to express cargos
15:41<andythenorth>and 2 unit high capacity + high speed
15:41<andythenorth>it might be interesting to make capcity and speed a tradeoff but dunno
15:41<andythenorth>often it’s nice to just have a train that is clearly boss
15:41<supermop>https://www.flickr.com/photos/07mst5c/9710288980
15:42<andythenorth>yeah
15:42<andythenorth>Iron Horse has some tradeoffs, between railtypes
15:42<supermop>do people ever need single diesel railcars in late game?
15:42<andythenorth>‘need’ :P
15:42<Samu>darn, i was never good at math
15:43<andythenorth>otherwise IH works on the ‘one obvious engine choice’ idea
15:43<supermop>need a "japanese" house set with both dense cities and tiny villages
15:43<supermop>otherwise just metro everywhere
15:43<supermop>ok no dmu for now
15:44<supermop>i need to come up with cute names?
15:44<andythenorth>not yet
15:44<andythenorth>sprites :P
15:45<supermop>class numbers?
15:45<andythenorth>and much less roster
15:45<andythenorth>also figure out wagon generations
15:45<andythenorth>we tried 2 for Iron Pony, and it wasn’t enough
15:46<supermop>trade offs in wagon stats?
15:48<andythenorth>no
15:48<andythenorth>just choose the one you like most for this cargo
15:48<andythenorth>there are a few oddiities, like metal cars are slow, and intermodal is fast
15:48<andythenorth>some types have ‘express’ speeds
15:49<andythenorth>otherwise similar capacity per tile, and uniform speeds per generation
15:51<andythenorth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_DF200#/media/File:%E4%B9%9D%E5%B7%9EDF200-7000.JPG
15:52<supermop>yep
15:52<supermop>thats "diesel 4" on concept list
15:52<supermop>cutting it
15:53<supermop>1000 hp too low for the "big" diesel
15:54<andythenorth>2400hp
15:54<andythenorth>or so
15:55<supermop>both switchers or more interesting to have one as carbody?
15:59<supermop>small one 700 or 1000 hp?
16:00<andythenorth>at least 700
16:04*andythenorth must to bed
16:04<andythenorth>bye supermop ;)
16:04<supermop>ok
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17:00<Samu>after some maths, lzma at preset 2, outputs an average of 989159 bytes per second for my cpu. this is ideal for connections of about 8 Mbps
17:01<Samu>my connection is 3 Mbps for upload, and that means... preset 4
17:01<Samu>is it possible to allow moar server customization?
17:02<Samu>in this case, the lzma
17:02<Samu>preset 5 compresses slower than my upload is capable of
17:03<Samu>preset 2 is too fast
17:03<Samu>do you understand my request?
17:06<Samu>preset 4 compressed at an average of 511836 bytes per sec. 3 Mbps upload is equal to 384000 bytes per sec
17:06<Samu>if talking about servers, it's a bit redundant to compress too fast if the upload rate can't keep up
17:07<Samu>that in turn could be used to use a stronger compression preset
17:07<Samu>ends up in a smaller file to upload
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17:24<Wolf01>Samu, Mbps is in bits not bytes, I'm connected at ~4Mbps and I download at 420-460KBps (bytes)
17:26<Wolf01>np, I read one 0 too much, I'm tired
17:30<Wolf01>I finally got rid of a stupid null reference error... it was because of self referencing code in the service instantiation :|
17:31<Wolf01>because it's natural to ask for a service while you are instantiating it (it was more subtle)... I can't even understand how it didn't end in infinite recursion
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18:22<Wolf01>'night
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19:52<Samu> here it is https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwsi6f6d1
19:53<Samu>this is the result of my research
19:57<Samu>With a FX-8150 CPU and an upload speed on 3000 Kbps I'd like to set up my servers with the compression method that closely matches the encoding capability of my system
19:57<Samu>that's how I interpret it
19:59<Samu>the map used in this research was 4096x4096
20:05<Samu>With a FX-8150 CPU and an upload speed on 3000 Kbps I'd like to set up my servers with the compression method that closely matches the upload rate of my internet.
20:05<Samu>fixed explanation, sorry, lol, I'm sleepy
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 08 00:00:18 2016