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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-09

---Logopened Sat Apr 09 00:00:20 2016
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02:55<andythenorth>o/
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03:10<peter1138>no
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03:18<peter1138>grrr, waited ages for delivery, then it gets delivered on a saturday... to work address...
03:18<peter1138>(so rather, not delivered)
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03:54<V453000>btw, the shit with train stretching from openttd, on drugs https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-133
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04:13<peter1138>yikes
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>so your squares are not actually square, but you'd still like it to occupy exactly a "square"?
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05:14<Wolf01>o/
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05:30<V453000>yeah pretty much Eddi|zuHause
05:31<V453000>same as what it does in openttd, you want the train look like it takes half a tile on diagonals, basically
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05:37<Wolf01>V453000: https://eu3.factorio.com/assets//img/blog/fff-133-train-stop-vertical.jpg, why not just using a bounding box for the train base to know where inserters can load instead of making the top inserter load on the wagon roof? so you can use a longer graphic to fill the gap
05:38<V453000>well there will even be a helper GUI to clearly see which inserter loads from which
05:38<V453000>but the graphics are the actual issue
05:40<Wolf01>I think the graphics shouldn't be directly used as boundingbox for the functionality
05:41<V453000>but how do you think to fill the gap? stretched graphics, fillers, bigger gaps between wagons?
05:41<V453000>making it look nice with either or all of those things is the challenge
05:41<Wolf01>I'll make a picture
05:43-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@po-217-129-255-23.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
05:43<Samu>hi
05:47<Wolf01>V453000, https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=D5D7348BE1780505!23524&authkey=!ADwe-pyzZEwqRXU&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
05:48<V453000>yes
05:48<V453000>the issue is to make the transition from shorter to longer train look nice
05:48<V453000>I believe I will be able to solve it as I did similar tests in openttd, but it isn't easy
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05:56<Wolf01>I like the idea of the limit of 6 inserters and fixing the vertical length with the graphic stretching it could be a good option, the wagon looks like rubber on the gif, but you don't really see wagons rotating in that way on the game (or are you planning to add turntables?) and I think you won't even notice the stretching
06:09<V453000>lol at turntables
06:09<V453000>and yes
06:09<V453000>*no to turntables :P
06:09<Wolf01>it will break hard the station layouts, but who cares?
06:09<Wolf01>it's the target of the game to actually build and rebuild and rebuild and rebuild everything
06:13<V453000>well 0.13 has so many features that the idea of keeping compatibility is pretty overruled :D
06:13<V453000>it should be mostly compatible but...
06:17<Wolf01>it happened with the belts-unloading-on-the-ground too and the inserters loading point on 0.12
06:17<Wolf01>we lived with that :)
06:22<V453000>yes
06:36<Samu>hey guys, today i'm investigating openttd memory usage when saving a game
06:37<Samu>some interesting results
06:38<Samu>there's the whole raw game state + the memcopy + mem used by lzma
06:39<Samu>that's quite some overhead
06:41<Samu>on 32-bit copy of open ttd, the 4096x4096 map size is frightening
06:42<Samu>it borders up to 1.700k for openttd.exe process
06:42<andythenorth>power plant accepts coal eh?
06:42<andythenorth>I love these heisenbugs
06:42<andythenorth>they’re just great
06:43<andythenorth>perhaps my text editor is transposing this? accept_cargo_types: [cargotype("COAL")];
06:43<Samu>does openttd actually crash with out of memory? do u get such crash reports?
06:43<andythenorth>perhaps on disk, the bytes have actually been written for “BEER”
06:43<andythenorth>but my OS is lying to me?
06:44<@planetmaker>Samu, yes, that happens
06:44<Samu>i see :o
06:44<@planetmaker>Samu, if it tries to allocate memory it needs, but it can't get it, then it has no other option than to stop working
06:45<@planetmaker>the crash report will tell you that it failed because of OOM
06:46<@planetmaker>256M was too little for our server with 1k^2 maps
06:50<Samu>is there a limit for AI mem usage? some years ago, they could allocate whatever they wanted, was this changed?
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07:01<Samu>if i can figure out the memcopy size, i can isolate and calculate the mem used by lzma only
07:02<Samu>it appears to be ~18MB
07:02<Samu>memcopy is by my estimate, ~170+ MB
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07:07<Samu>ok memcopy was 174.924k
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07:09<Samu>888.832 + 174.924 + x = 1.079.204
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07:09<Samu>x = lzma mem usage
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07:10<Samu>x = 15.448
07:11<Samu>not bad :o
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08:12<Wolf01>V453000, do you know if it is in the air a change about the chests slot reservation/limit? It would be really cool to reservate quickly a bunch of slots for the same item (I usually fill the wagons with wooden crate and then change only the slots I need)
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08:41<Samu>16.432k
08:43<Samu>16.432k +/- 920k
08:44<Samu>i can pinpoint openttd lzma mem usage to about 16.432KB +/- 920KB
08:48<Samu>memcopy was 173.016KB +/- 920KB
08:49<Samu>and the rest of openttd process was 888.452KB +/- 920KB
08:52<Samu>888.452KB + 173.016KB + 16.432KB = 1.077.900KB +/- 920KB total peak mem usage for creating a savegame
08:53<Samu>of a map sized 4096x4096 without any transport services being run yet
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09:11<drac_boy>hi
09:21<Samu>hi
09:22<drac_boy>how doing?
09:50<Samu>I'm doing stuff no one cares about
09:53<drac_boy>heh?
09:54<drac_boy>anyway going for a bit..may be bakc later
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10:05<Samu>is the raw uncompressed data from a savegame a hash chain or a binary tree? or does this question make no sense?
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10:22<Samu>anyone knows?
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10:38<@peter1138>it's raw data
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10:41<andythenorth>is cat
10:41<andythenorth>almost certainly
10:41<andythenorth>most things is
10:42<@Alberth>o/
10:42<@Alberth>solved the alcohol mystery?
10:43<andythenorth>nah
10:43<andythenorth>not a clue
10:46<andythenorth>can’t even repro it by changing grfs (or parameters) on a running game
10:46<@Alberth>works for me too
10:46<andythenorth>it’s a bug in openttd, or a bug in the bug report
10:47<andythenorth>or a bug in nmlc
10:47<andythenorth>but only affecting certain users
10:47<andythenorth>:P
10:47<andythenorth>or FIRS compile is non-deterministic
10:47<andythenorth>if I had to put €5000 on this, it wouldn’t be on the FIRS compile or nmlc :P
10:48<@Alberth>fair enough :)
10:48<@Alberth>https://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/busy.png extreme @ 128x128, perhaps a bit too busy? :D
10:49<andythenorth>looks about right to me
10:49<andythenorth>did you get 1 of each industry?
10:53<@Alberth>almost, 1950, no recycling (2 industries), no oilrig, no biorefinery, and no smithy forge
10:53<@Alberth>looks right to me
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11:14<supermop>hello
11:14<supermop>need to get some pogs printed
11:15<andythenorth>enum CatTypes {CAT_FAT = 0, CAT_THIN = 1, CAT_SAT_ON_HOT_TUB_LID = 0, CAT_AT_WINDOW_MIAOWING_ANNOYINGLY = 1, CAT_BELONGS_TO_NEIGHBOUR = CATS_ALL};
11:18*andythenorth considers ‘build a cat’ feature for OpenTTD
11:18<andythenorth>srsly, grow the user base
11:21<supermop>hot tub in england?
11:21<andythenorth>inflatable
11:22<supermop>inflatable hot tub?
11:22<@Alberth>owning a hot tub, and using it are two different things :p
11:22<andythenorth>cat is on it, can’t use it
11:22<supermop>also: slowly turn openttd into neko atsume
11:22<supermop>or whatever that game is called
11:23*andythenorth bbl
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11:29<supermop>ok going to do more suit shopping
11:30<supermop>might get a very german hugo boss one
11:30<supermop>navy with multicolored flecks like a VW harlequin polo
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12:17<frosch123>@seen terkhen
12:17<@DorpsGek>frosch123: terkhen was last seen in #openttd 9 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Terkhen> Hello
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13:07<Samu>give me your first impressions: http://i.imgur.com/3zq1fKW.png
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13:08<@Alberth>OMG, a link
13:08<@Alberth> :)
13:08<@Alberth>first AI is a human player?
13:09<Samu>no, it's a real human player, my company
13:10<@Alberth>what's the colors about?
13:10<Samu>red indicates an AI that started, but IsDead()
13:11<Samu>green indicates an AI that started, still living
13:11<Samu>orange means... AIs that didn't start, but the slots are configurable
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13:12<Samu>red slot is also configurable
13:12<Samu>green is not
13:12<Samu>silver is not
13:12<@Alberth>how is this configuration? I would expect a configuration to be separate from the actual companies
13:13<@Alberth>if I specify an AI, I don't specify "living" or "dead"
13:14<@Alberth>I wonder if "AIs" should really be companies
13:16<Samu>sorry i dont understand the question
13:17<andythenorth>is the FIRS bug fixed yet?
13:18<Samu>when clicking a red or orange slot from the list, the "Select" and "Configure" buttons can be clicked
13:18<Samu>you can switch to another AI script, define the new script parameters
13:19<@Alberth>the point is that in this window, you are now mixing game play progress and pre-game configuration
13:19<Samu>but to start it, you have to do to AI debug window and click "Reload AI" - it re-rolls the slot with the new script you've set
13:19<frosch123>andythenorth: the plural thing will be fixed in eints
13:20<andythenorth>good :)
13:20<andythenorth>I was referring to this power plant that accepts alcohol
13:20<andythenorth>which I can see right now in game
13:20<Samu>go to* typo
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>started a new game?
13:21<Samu>hmm, what do you suggest me to do?
13:21*andythenorth is confused
13:22<@Alberth>Samu: I am wondering about that
13:22*Eddi|zuHause is annoyed
13:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ? o_O
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>i upgraded my OS
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>and there are a million tiny problems
13:22<Samu>so it's a bad idea?
13:23<@Alberth>Samu: I didn't say that, I am just not sure how to go further
13:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: switch to OS X , and have just a few really big problems? o_O
13:23<andythenorth>and someone to blame for them?
13:23<andythenorth>and no way to fix them
13:23<@Alberth>Samu: you want a more company number oriented allocation, I guess?
13:24<andythenorth>wtf, how did he get power plants onto this map?
13:24<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1166821#p1166821
13:24<andythenorth>it’s in Temperate Basic economy, there are no power plants
13:24<andythenorth>and it’s not a newgrf industry, there’s no debug icon
13:25<Samu>in my opinion, yeah, since the slot is also tied with the ai debug window
13:25<Samu>the positioning
13:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: alcohol slot matches with original coal?
13:25<Samu>slot 1 = company 1 = ai debug 1
13:25<Samu>slot 2 = company 2 = ai debug 2
13:26<andythenorth>Alberth: yes
13:26<@Alberth>Samu: right. Here you are doing configuration, so I'd only show whether or not you can configure a slot
13:26<supermop>andythenorth: if high enough proof, maybe the power plant is burning spirits?
13:27<@Alberth>or sprites?
13:27<andythenorth>maybe, but also something is broken :(
13:27<supermop>not a bug, it's a feature
13:27*andythenorth is annoyed
13:27<supermop>environmentally friendly ethanol burning power plant
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13:28<supermop>the plant is a default industry?
13:28<Samu>i am currently only allowing slot configuration for AI which IsDead() = true.
13:28<@Alberth>and all beyond the max competitors?
13:28<frosch123>supermop: i would rather suspect the employees dringking it
13:29<andythenorth>this player has managed to get 5 power plants onto this map
13:29<@Alberth>pure alcohol? not a good idea :)
13:29<andythenorth>they do not show in the minimap
13:29<@Alberth>:O
13:29<andythenorth>but they are in the industry list as <invalid industry>
13:29<@Alberth>game log clean?
13:30<andythenorth>how do I check?
13:30<Samu>yesterday I tried configuration for AIs which were still alive, but that caused some issues with the script that was running
13:30<@Alberth>type gamelog in console check for not having modified newgrfs ater time = 0
13:30<+glx>usually <invalid> stuff comes when grf are changed in a running game
13:31<@Alberth>Samu: yeah, that sounds like a bad idea :)
13:31<andythenorth>I miss loads of the grfs
13:31<andythenorth>and my internet connection is currently about 5KB/s :x
13:31<Samu>I am unsure if it can be done for dead AIs, i don't suppose they would come to life once they die, or do they?
13:31<frosch123>that save has no weird powerplants?
13:31<andythenorth>that save has 5
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>missing grfs will certainly cause <invalid> stuff :p
13:32<andythenorth>but I miss so many grfs here that all bets are off
13:32<frosch123>yes, but they are grf provided
13:32<frosch123>and not called <invalid industry>?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>why even bother us when you have missing grfs?
13:33<andythenorth>because I can’t fricking download them :(
13:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: only weirdos have the separator grfs
13:33<frosch123>not even i do
13:33<Samu>ok let me upload this patch
13:33<Samu>brb
13:33<@Alberth>andythenorth: gamelog looks clean
13:33<andythenorth>debugging other people’s crap with a failed internet connection and a broadband provider status page showing only green lights
13:33<@Alberth>but maybe one of the newgrfs enables industry?
13:33<frosch123>andythenorth: to me it looks like the power station is just provided by firs
13:34<frosch123>you can even fund new ones
13:34<andythenorth>how do FIRS version numbers work? They make no sense to me
13:34<frosch123>you mean the 5935?
13:34<andythenorth>I have to find the right version of FIRS, and o/c I have thousands to choose from
13:34<andythenorth>yes
13:35<frosch123>it's the date of the commit
13:35<andythenorth>days since...?
13:35<frosch123>in days since 2000-01-01
13:35<@Alberth>loaded compatible newgrfs after a game load though
13:36<@Alberth>nvm, that was me :p
13:37<frosch123>andythenorth: i still don't get it... i used the bananas version to load the save
13:37<andythenorth>the bananas version isn’t 2.0.0?
13:37*andythenorth doesn’t understand the versions tbh
13:37<frosch123>it is
13:38<@Alberth>hmm, I have "coal" :p
13:38<andythenorth>the filename isn’t 2.0.0
13:38<andythenorth>I have just built the 2.0.0 tag
13:39<andythenorth>I get v5943
13:39<andythenorth>the one in the save is 5935
13:39<frosch123>andythenorth: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/post1166821.png
13:39<frosch123>andythenorth: just download firs from bananas?
13:40<andythenorth>apparently I did already
13:40<andythenorth>bananas refuses to download it
13:40<frosch123>do you have multiple firs_2-2.0.tar on your disk?
13:40<andythenorth>yup
13:40<andythenorth>I just built one
13:40<frosch123>ok, delete them :)
13:40<frosch123>ottd cannot distinguish tars with same name
13:44<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, the industry is named "power station", not "power plant"
13:45<andythenorth>I just have <invalid name>
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27537 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2016-04-09 19:45:38 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 2 changes by telk5093
13:47<Samu>Alberth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74694&p=1166831#p1166831
13:48<frosch123>andythenorth: land info tool says "pre-industrial era houses"
13:48<frosch123>so, another grf defines industries
13:49<andythenorth>I’ll need to add a compaibility check for that :)
13:49<andythenorth>thanks
13:49<@Alberth>samu: this is about 15 competitors?
13:49<Samu>yes, that too
13:49<Samu>it's also included
13:54<@Alberth>can you just for the total number of valid industries instead?
13:54<@Alberth>you know how many to expect, so any deviation means broken sutff
13:55<@Alberth>+check
13:58<andythenorth>interesting idea
13:59<andythenorth>not sure that can be done in the action where the checks are handled
13:59<@Alberth>you can skip your own :)
14:01<andythenorth>there should be some kind of online global grf registry :P
14:01<andythenorth>which maintains a compatibility matrix
14:01<andythenorth>ugh
14:02<Sylf>I don't think not even the newgrf authors know the full compatibility issues
14:03<andythenorth>thanks for replying in the thread btw Sylf
14:03<Sylf>that was one of the weirdest issue I've seen in recent days
14:06<andythenorth>I forget why the FIRS version isn’t just the commit hash
14:06<andythenorth>there is a reason
14:08<@Alberth>deciding which one is newer
14:08<andythenorth>of course :)
14:09<@Alberth>I can't understand how git devs expect us to handle that
14:10<@Alberth>but they might believe everybody wants to be a git wizard
14:10<andythenorth>look at current tree, see where hash is
14:10<supermop>Sylf: did you used to live in tokyo?
14:11<andythenorth>date-based versioning against specific commits is weird if you’re merging a lot of feature branches
14:11*andythenorth is guessing, doesn’t know
14:12<@Alberth>a few days ago I needed "something newer than where I was"
14:12<Sylf>Never lived in Tokyo.
14:12<Sylf>Grew up near Nagoya
14:12<@Alberth>which would be trivial in svn and hg :)
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>i always found the date-based versioning odd
14:16<Samu>I'm editing the first post of that topic, to better explain everything what this patch do.
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14:25*andythenorth wonders if FIRS can just do x.y.z for compatible versions
14:25<sim-al2>.lastseen drac_boy
14:25<sim-al2>.seen drac_boy
14:25<andythenorth>I care not about breaking nightlies
14:25<@Alberth>@seen drac_boy
14:25<@DorpsGek>Alberth: drac_boy was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 30 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <drac_boy> anyway going for a bit..may be bakc later
14:25<sim-al2>Oh thanks
14:26<andythenorth>x.y.z might be problematic with RCs
14:26<@Alberth>x.y.z-RCn
14:28<andythenorth>how does openttd actually check? just x > y ?
14:28<andythenorth>where x is current grf version and y is min. version
14:31<frosch123>>=, but yes
14:31<frosch123>matching md5 goes first
14:31<frosch123>then largest version number with version-in-save >= min-compatible
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14:42<supermop>ah, ok. I cant find any pictures of what the first couple generations of tokyo monorail looked like in the 60s and 70s
14:42<andythenorth>make it up
14:42<andythenorth>use the osaka one
14:43<andythenorth>supermop: http://www.monorails.org/webpix/1964.jpg
14:44<supermop>oldest osaka one is 1990 and i already have that one standing in for 2nd or 3rd generation
14:44<Sylf>supermop: like these? https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E3%83%A2%E3%83%8E%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB100%E5%BD%A2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq9PGUm4LMAhVKtYMKHUgmBWoQ_AUIBygB&biw=1858&bih=987
14:45<supermop>so looks like a normal 60s JR EMU i guess?
14:45<andythenorth>http://d13uygpm1enfng.cloudfront.net/article-imgs/en/2015/05/08/AJ201505080090/AJ201505080099.jpg
14:45<andythenorth>they’re just boxes at TTD scale
14:45<andythenorth>just use the same one, and change the livery
14:45<andythenorth>add / remove white
14:46<andythenorth>or 2CC
14:46<Sylf>yeah, it looks like it. Maybe a bit shorter.
14:46<supermop>this livery would look good and 60s ish
14:46<supermop>http://web.fc2.com/jump/?url=http://sdkai2.web.fc2.com/other-q-always-mono100-3.jpg
14:49<supermop>andythenorth: 1 tile long train made up of 5/6/5 kosher for IH, or must be 8/8?
14:50<andythenorth>5/6/5 is fine
14:50<supermop>5/8 in the / | views is a pain
14:51<supermop>non-integer pixel length
14:51<andythenorth>all / views are a pain :)
14:51<V453000>5/8 sounds like a terrible idea
14:51<V453000>no real benefit over 4/8
14:51<supermop>V453000: 5+6+5 adds up to 16
14:52<supermop>4+4+4+4 too fiddly?
14:52<V453000>ok at least that XD
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i think i used 4/8/4 for 1 tile
14:53<supermop>6+4+6 maybe better - then cab cars are a tad longer
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>also, why would 5/8 be non-integer? each 1/8 is 1px up and 2px over
14:54<supermop>the template im working from has 8/8 as 20px long, 10px up in / view
14:54<andythenorth>if you draw enough, you’ll end up favouring 8/8
14:55<andythenorth>because that’s less drawing :P
14:55<andythenorth>only one sprite needed, not two
14:55<supermop>unless thats totally wrong?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>that just needs the right templates :p
14:56<supermop>andythenorth: how long is IH pony 3rd gen coach?
14:56<supermop>not 8/8?
14:56<andythenorth>probably 10/8
14:56<andythenorth>measure the pixels in – view
14:56<supermop>fuuuuuuuuuuuck
14:56<supermop>40 in _ view
14:56<andythenorth>these things happen
14:57<supermop>ok
14:57<supermop>soo new feature: my place holder sprites now allow for 10/8 railcars
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14:58<supermop>so i already have a 5/8 sprite at least then
14:58<supermop>and a 7.5/8
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>be aware that 10/8 can't be dual headed
14:59<andythenorth>nothing in IH can be dual-headed :)
14:59<supermop>never drew vehicles before so didn't notice 40 was too long
15:00<supermop>andythenorth: what was your shinkansen/cargo sprinter idea?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: always draw vehicles into existing templates
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: because nobody is going to bother figuring out offsets for each sprite over and over
15:00<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: was, didn't realize was a template for 10/8 because i am a moron
15:01<andythenorth>supermop: the cargo sprinter has a stupid magical template that uses different sprites for first/last vehicle and middle vehicles
15:01<andythenorth>it also handles cargo-specific graphics, with random variants :P
15:02<andythenorth>I never ever ever want to see it again
15:02<andythenorth>real show-pony stuff, total overkill
15:02<andythenorth> but it could be used for EMUs also
15:03<supermop>ok
15:04<supermop>i'll figure out a way to bribe you into using that for shinkansen
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds ridiculously overcomplicated over just making something dual head
15:05<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: idk how the CS works, but ideally every car adds power, not just the heads
15:05<Samu>Alberth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1166603#p1166603 - just edited the first post of that topic to better describe the patch
15:05<Samu>now it should be all clear
15:05<@Alberth>ok :)
15:06<supermop>fiance vetoed the multi-colored suit
15:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you might be right, but then double-head engines are restricted to 8/8 and it’s a janky schema with special cases
15:08<supermop>now that i've accidentally drawn a 5/8 emu part, the 5+6+5 monorail does seem more attractive
15:08*andythenorth wonders what the best way to build a shinkansen is for player
15:08<supermop>easiest is you buy a 4-car set
15:08<supermop>as many as you need
15:09<andythenorth>it’s not very flexible for capacity
15:09<andythenorth>does that matter?
15:09<supermop>2nd easiest is just keep buying single shinkansen cars
15:09<andythenorth>are they pax only?
15:09<supermop>yes
15:09<supermop>in real life and in concept
15:10<sim-al2>In game terms it might be good to have mail as an option
15:10<andythenorth>recently I have been playing with 5 tile train lengths
15:10<andythenorth>by accident
15:10<supermop>in real life the end cars should be lower capacity and more expensive, due to cabs, long aerodynamic area, couplers etc
15:11<Samu>my english is so horrible :o
15:11<supermop>i always use 5 tile
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15:11<supermop>but i dont mind a center car costing the same as an end car
15:11<sim-al2>Of course, in reality, after the 0 series the end cars don't have traction motor either...
15:11<supermop>nor do i mind it having same capacity
15:13<supermop>sim-al2: in real life japanese emus are too complicated in their set layouts, between where powered cars and trailers go
15:13<supermop>in game should be homogenized
15:13<sim-al2>Well, exluding those 4 car 100 series trains. But yeah, that's way far out for a game to replicate
15:14<andythenorth>supermop: I think high-speed MUs like that are best treated similar to planes
15:14<andythenorth>consists are 3 (maybe 4) tile long
15:14<andythenorth>several hundred pax
15:14<andythenorth>if you want bigger, add another whole consist
15:14<andythenorth>no magic
15:15<Sylf>shinkansen normally have very fixed consists
15:15<Sylf>8, 12 or 16 cars for 0 series
15:15<sim-al2>Most of them have what's referred to as the MM' setup, where there's two types of equipment, one car with pantograph, transformer, and motor controller, and the other car might have the air compressor, but both motored
15:15<sim-al2>There were 4 and 6 car trains for the West Kodoma near the end
15:15<supermop>sim-al2: too complex for iron horse
15:15<Sylf>but for the game, I prefer I can create my own consists
15:16<sim-al2>I know, just for reference
15:16<sim-al2>Nevermind the bilevel cars that appeared at one point
15:18<andythenorth>8 cars at 8/8 is 4 tiles
15:18<Samu>CRAP, i forgot to describe the best feature of this all... restarting the slot with another AI script
15:18<andythenorth>which is about right
15:18<Samu>brb
15:19<supermop>sim-al2: no MAX in this roster, throws off balance between shinkanse and regular EMU
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15:19<sim-al2>No, the 100 and 200 had bilevel green and dining cars, because they had such long trips
15:20<sim-al2>Especially 100 series, Toyko to the end of the Sanyo Shnkansen takes a long time at 220 km/h
15:20<supermop>sim-al2: ah those were gone by my first trip to japan i think
15:20<sim-al2>It was only two cars in a 16 car formation
15:20<sim-al2>I think they were cut up by the late 80's, definetly by the 90's
15:21<supermop>when i was there the first time it was mostly 300s and 500s, few 0s and few 700s\
15:21<sim-al2>Yeah, they would have been gone, having trains at 270 km/h really speeded everything up
15:21<supermop>havet seen a 500 since then tho
15:22<sim-al2>They're around, but on the Sanyo Shinkansen
15:22<sim-al2>Too expensive for mass production. The 700 series have almost the same performance at much lower price to build
15:23<sim-al2>100 series bilevel: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/100_ns_mark.JPG
15:23<supermop>sim-al2: yeah but 500s scream 90s industrial design
15:23<supermop>wish i could have gone last year to see the 500/evangelion 20th aniversary set
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15:25<supermop>the guy at the bottom is 5/8: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7735/Cranes.png
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15:25<Samu>done :) damn i feel so proud i made something decent
15:25<Samu>:p
15:26<sim-al2>C bogie?
15:26<Samu>no, this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74694
15:26<sim-al2>Also you have a single black pixel at 7x7
15:27<Samu>oh, you're not talking to me
15:27<sim-al2>Sorry Samu, I was talking to supermop
15:27<sim-al2>But the AI patch is looking cool
15:28<Samu>i'm unsure if game scripts could do the same, only if i test it
15:30<supermop>andythenorth: Japan set is gpl so could steal their shinkansens,
15:31<Samu>thx
15:33<supermop>sim-al2: not enough space to show separate bogies
15:34<supermop>bogies will be painted over with a monorail side skirt anyway, as i dont have any rail vehicle planned for 5/8
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16:03<sim-al2>Side skirt you say? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/OER_3263.jpg
16:04<@planetmaker>o/
16:04<sim-al2>Yeah, I think they took them off because it made inspections too hard
16:05<frosch123>hoi planetmaker :)
16:09<supermop>andy, should sprite sheets for each vehicle be posted as issues?
16:12<andythenorth>yeah that’s fine
16:12<andythenorth>no plan survives the first test game btw ;)
16:13<supermop>yeah, i am trying to think as little as possible about hp, speed, and capacity
16:15<supermop>for monorails, i am guessing regardless of whether I do 5 6 5 or 6 4 6, it is best that all generations use the same?
16:16<sim-al2>Yeah, people will get confused if they change like that
16:22<Snail>hey guys, I have a question about var61
16:22<Snail>it currently works with a limited number of callbacks… such as recoloring
16:23<Snail>I understand it’s like this to prevent circular references. However, my question is, can we extend it to the “wagon length” callback as well?
16:24<frosch123>no, it cannot be extended to anything that affects gameplay
16:25<Snail>why is that?
16:25<frosch123>because that's where the circular references cause trouble
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16:31<supermop>ok ive cut the vehicle into 1/8 slices
16:31<supermop>so i can just stack as many as i need
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17:11<supermop>is 19 m abnormally long for a diesel locomotive?
17:13<supermop>seems normal
17:16<Wolf01>yes, seems normal
17:16<Wolf01>the centennial is 30m
17:16<Wolf01>that's abnormal :D
17:19<@peter1138>firmware update for watch... ;s
17:19<Supercheese>Who watches the watches?
17:20<Samu>do u know of a game script that dies on game start? Need one to test something
17:20<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNR_Class_DE10
17:21<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_DF200
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17:21<supermop>would you say that considering those two locomotives together, if red is 1CC, would 2CC be white, or grey?
17:23<supermop>so, would the light grey paint change color with 2cc while the white accent stays white? or would the white accent change color while the grey stays grey?
17:23<supermop>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR_Freight_Class_HD300#/media/File:HD300-501_Kita-Fuchu_20141104.jpg
17:25<supermop>Sylf: would you say that JR Freight's colors are red and white, or red and grey, for diesels?
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17:29<sim-al2>Newer ones seem to be red and grey
17:30<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Freight_DF200_105.JPG
17:31<supermop>that still has white logo and stripe though
17:31<sim-al2>Although the HD300 does look like it's red and white
17:34<sim-al2>I don't think there's any set rules for painting, it's JRF that keeps the logo like that. JR Kyushu has its own ideas: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Seven_Stars_in_Kyushu_at_Aso_Station_20131103.jpg
17:35<Sylf>supermop: red and white
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17:37<Sylf>If you're talking about likes of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNR_Class_DE10, It's red and white to me, even though the grey part is bigger than white
17:37<sim-al2>Oh, looks like JRF does keep the white accent and logo even with different paint: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/EH200-901_Hachioji_20030913.JPG
17:38<sim-al2>With old locomotives like the DE10 and DD51, there's tons of paint variations
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17:40<Sylf>I don't know of that many different paints for freight locos
17:40<sim-al2>When you look at the wikipedia pages, I suggest you switch to Japanese language (left sidebar), you get tons more pictures
17:41<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/JRF_DE10-1164.jpg
17:41<Sylf>Japanese is my first language, so that's where I automatically go to when reading up on japanese trains
17:41<sim-al2>Oh sorry
17:41<Sylf>Many color variations are normally for pax
17:42<sim-al2>Yeah, but their are small variations in scheme over the years
17:42<Sylf>but vast majority stay with one design, one color scheme
17:43<sim-al2>I assume different depots are responsible for the variations
17:45<Sylf>I guess DF200 is more red-and-grey, not much white.
17:47<sim-al2>It seems earlier batches have red-painted plows
17:47<sim-al2>Or rather, the end plate above the plow
17:48<Sylf>I caught a photo of one of those earlier this year in sapporo :)
17:49<sim-al2>So I understand that they haul agricultural products from Hokkiado, but do they work south of Hakodate at all?
17:51<Sylf>DE10 etc?
17:51<sim-al2>The EH800s have another varation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/EH800-1_%28No_1_end%29_Kita-Fuchu_20140620.JPG
17:51<Sylf>or some other locos?
17:52<sim-al2>Sorry, I just don't have a grasp of where diesels in Hokkiado are actually used, except that the lines away from Sapporo are not electrified
17:52<Sylf>DF200 can be used outside of Hokkaido, but they aren't used - no need.
17:53<Sylf>DF200 special version is used in Kyushu, pulling the Nanatsuboshi train
17:53<Sylf>that's the only exception (the brown scheme)
17:53<sim-al2>Yeah, the exterior design of the Kyushi unit is... interesting...
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18:00<supermop>cant decide what will look best in IH style, colorful stripe and big grey areas,
18:00<supermop>or large areas of color with a white stripe
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18:12<Samu>Unhandled exception at 0x00007FF6066270AB in openttd.exe: An invalid parameter was passed to a function that considers invalid parameters fatal.
18:12<Samu>what does this mean'
18:14<Samu>visual studio express 2015 does that sometimes when I exit openttd
18:22<@peter1138>get a backtrace
18:35<Samu>how do I pause an AI? I see that there's some code related to IsPaused
18:36<Samu>but in the game I don't see how I can pause AIs
18:36<Samu>i can only stop it completely
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19:07<drac_boy>hi
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19:12<sim-al2>hi
19:16<drac_boy>hows you?
19:19<drac_boy>also http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/6/4/2/9642.1280200083.jpg you probably can tell which one it is from the unusual trucks .. but either way that operation was just a "keep things as-is for now since later we're going eject any passenger services" kind of thing
19:19<drac_boy>the yellow splash is...tbh...a little funny looking
19:20<sim-al2>Early Conrail paint schemes are rather interesting
19:20<drac_boy>(also...not sure why that looks like an electronic megaphone for a horn? heh, never seen one like that afaik)
19:20<sim-al2>Paired up FL9s too
19:21<sim-al2>There were some experiments with warning devices at that time, Union Pacific tried sirens and stuff
19:21<drac_boy>well conrail did have one single GG1 that was painted all blue (everything else just got the black 'CR' basic treatment) ... the real reason why tho was to cover up the bicentennial paintjob tho
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>tho tho
19:23<drac_boy>http://www.vistadome.com/postcards/trains/electric/gg1_cr4800.jpg becomes http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/1/1/6311.1105214460.jpg
19:23<drac_boy>not too surprised that they choosed the 'Rivet' one for the special paintjob
19:23<drac_boy>ofc even with the new blue paint you still can see all these dotted lines :)
19:28<drac_boy>about early paints, how about this? http://www.tourisme-monteregie.qc.ca/images/news/detail/CP4237_BR.jpg the red color stayed but the white strips didn't last for a long time (sometimes one strip was still present but eventually it just disappeared)
19:30<drac_boy>that also had one other thing that I can't recall seeing active in any photos I've seen (probably need to find earlier ones) ... rather than using old fashioned flags on pole they had electronic 'flags' (the 3+3 lamps above windshields yeah)
19:32<drac_boy>heh hm that reminds me of an unusual photo in one of the canadian rail magazine that I don't have anymore .. an early wide-hood locomotive flying white flags even although the practice officially was already gone by that date
19:33<sim-al2>Yeah, I suspect that the requirement for using flags disappeared while these were being built
19:35<drac_boy>theres only the blue flag .. and even then later these became hard plates instead (the kind you keep by shed instead of rolling up and throw into cab stow)
19:36<drac_boy>huh, while looking for any interesting conrail passenger photo I found this instead http://www.railpixs.com/amt4/Commuter%20trains%20at%20Chicago_Sept77.jpg
19:37<drac_boy>old F units, a F40PH (I think), PC (or at least ex-PC) alco leading a F unit on local train . AND the amtrak rohr train
19:41<sim-al2>Yeah, no Metra at that time
19:45<drac_boy>as I recall a few of the commuter networks were from the "shutting down services? we'll take it into our own hands instead" era during 1970-1980s period
19:54<drac_boy>also interestingly enough the South Shore was technically classified as interurban which meant it could had become amtrak's but didn't happen. later it basically became a city owned commuter
19:58<drac_boy>ah sim I almost forgot, did you know that the George railroad actually kept a caboose or heavyweight coach on all of its freight trains for a long time and even refused to join amtrak because they were afraid of losing a tax subsidiary. when SAL bought them out these rarely-used rides suddenly disappeared :)
19:59<drac_boy>must had been an old steam era tax structure me think. no idea tbh
20:00<sim-al2>Possibly, also, the ICC had some interesting rules about common carrier services
20:03<drac_boy>also ICC got involved in the "interurban" wording .. as I recall there was one railroad that asked a merger plan to be processed under interurban laws but later ICC came back saying that as they had diesel locomotives nope they must use steam road merger rules .. and on cue the merger was denied under strong opposition from a would-had-been-parallel railroad
20:04<drac_boy>apparently interurbans had much less regulations for a merger
20:06<drac_boy>mind you there is one other side of the ICC ... Southern Pacific's long fight with them for these super-sized (back then, now they probably look small? heh) freight wagons with equally lower tonnage prices to match
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>why is there a guy walking on the rails into the oncoming train at that photo?
20:08<drac_boy>tbh I think the F40PH may be simply parked 'hot' (although its headlight maybe shouldn't had been left staying on compared to that amtrak F unit)
20:09<drac_boy>it seem like only the alco/F pair are actually moving at all
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the engine with the smilie face on the right?
20:09<drac_boy>yep I see an arm in the alco cab window .. and looks like a bit of hot exhaust smoke too
20:10<drac_boy>yeah that smile face .. its roadnumber lights are on but the headlight are off tho
20:10<sim-al2>The switch is lined for the local, I suppose the guy is going to line the other switch closer to the Amtrak train
20:10<drac_boy>sim...ah does look like a manual switch, maybe
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>for the shunting unit on the left to cross?
20:11<sim-al2>Alternatively, he's going to set that switch so that the Amtrak can pass through
20:11<drac_boy>little footnote: theres probably a conductor waiting to do something (in the very lower-left corner)
20:11<drac_boy>not sure, no blue hat or anything
20:11<drac_boy>navy hat*
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>i find the engine shed funny where they cut the rails leading into it
20:14<drac_boy>heres another chicago photo. and I never could quite get why conrail kept a lot of SW1's around (the original ones yeah!) http://www.railpixs.com/conrail/AMT365_363_Conrail8429_atChicago_June82.jpg
20:14<sim-al2>I'd guess cheap and reliable
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>on the whole, this yard seems to have a long downward slope ahead of it
20:14<sim-al2>Chicago is pretty flat
20:14<drac_boy>well the SW1200 and 1500 were sold in a large number and still used the similar powerplants to the geeps
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>i meant in time, not in geography :p
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>the shady weather is probably not helping the look either :p
20:16<drac_boy>pretty flat? you're going to want to try a different railroad :p .. I recall one that had a super-flat super-straight line but of course they were besieged with occassional but huge pileups due to hot bearings (because a very straight line makes it hard to look back on train)
20:17<drac_boy>can't recall the railroad's name now sorry
20:19<sim-al2>The railyard seems to have become Metra's main yard: https://www.google.com/maps/place/41%C2%B051'54.0%22N+87%C2%B038'16.8%22W/@41.8646716,-87.6369369,874m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en
20:20<drac_boy>for grades you probably can't beat this tho as it suddenly went from level to almost 5% instantly but at least it wasn't for a long distance ... http://www.american-rails.com/images/NSDoubleSalD.jpg
20:21<sim-al2>Turns out the RTA F40PHs arrived in time for pulling some of the heavyweights: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=303145&nseq=7
20:21<drac_boy>used to be (as an editor quoted) that downhill on a two-coach train a passenger standing on the rear vestibule would find his shoes higher than the horns on the leading F unit!
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a TTD slope :p
20:25<drac_boy>and of course steep grades means this can happen, thankgod for runaway tracks http://www.polkcounty.org/saludagrade/trains_mag/engine-5.jpg
20:25<drac_boy>(yep a heavy train so it buried itself hard.... :-s )
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20:36<supermop>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7736/kumatan.png
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20:37<sim-al2>Very nice
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20:40<drac_boy>supermop that looks like a typical hydraulic-or-electric 3 axle shunter?
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20:57<drac_boy>ah sim no clue how to find a photo but there were always these few rather odd locomotives during the early mergers-happy years. nothing like finding a single diesel with a mix of different panels and everything (csx cab, up engine door, southern roof, etc? probably already been done!)
21:06<drac_boy>anyway sorry if you wanted say something later but I'm going sleep soon now so bye :)
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned already that sometimes i do not understand a single word you say?
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21:06<Eddi|zuHause>dangit
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21:14<sim-al2>Eddi, I assume he means like a colorful version of this: http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/unusual/5771m.jpg
21:15<sim-al2>The top line should read "Seaboard"
21:16<Eddi|zuHause>copy-paste error :p
21:17<sim-al2>Or this, railroad name is just "CSX": http://www.trainweb.org/csxphotos/photos/unusual/0136m.jpg
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22:05<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 10 00:00:21 2016