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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-19

---Logopened Tue Apr 19 00:00:34 2016
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04:20<@peter1138>hmm, i suppose i should get this new star trek film
04:20<@peter1138>but i don't have an hddvd player
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04:27<@peter1138>ooh, a bluray drive with an aerodynamic enclosure... wha?
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04:41<joepie91>irritating discovery: the openttd protocol is actually stateful
04:41<joepie91>at least for the content server...
04:45<@Rubidium>you mean the version number of OpenTTD?
04:52<joepie91>Rubidium: nah, looking at the content server protocol atm. PACKET_CONTENT_SERVER_CONTENT responses can be either metadata or file contents
04:52<joepie91>depending on whether a metadata packet was seen before and how many bytes are left to read for the file
04:53<joepie91>the packet itself doesn't indicate whether it's metadata or not
04:53<joepie91>that's expected to be inferred from what was seen before
04:53<joepie91>hence, stateful protocol
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04:54<joepie91>it's a little irritating since the protocol parser I'm writing has so far been based on the assumption of it being a stateless protocol, because most of it is
04:54<joepie91>and now I have to change it :P
04:58<@Rubidium>oh that, but then when you have to transfer more than MTU bytes you can't really circumvent that, right?
04:58<@Rubidium>you have some state of the file to write (or not)
05:00<@Rubidium>though effectively it's just data that keeps coming till an end-of-file marker (i.e. empty packet)
05:00<@Rubidium>unless the file could not be opened at the server side
05:00<@peter1138>is it not tcp?
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05:02<@Rubidium>yeah, but built on top of the generic UDP/TCP packet format of OpenTTD
05:09<@peter1138>if it's raw tcp then there are no packets, just a stream. but i dunno what ottd does on top.
05:09<@Rubidium>1 byte type, 2 bytes length, n bytes content; repeat
05:20<joepie91>Rubidium: it would've been easily solved by just having a separate packet type for file contents
05:20<joepie91>right now there's a "content info" and "content data" type
05:20<joepie91>and "content data" will have both file metadata and file contents
05:20<joepie91>if there were "content info", "content file metadata" and "content file contents" packet types, you'd be able to write a stateless parser
05:20<joepie91>even if you have to reassemble the chunks
05:21<joepie91>but you wouldn't need to know about previous packets to be able to parse subsequent ones, as is the case now
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05:21<joepie91>each packet could be parsed independently even if you don't necessarily know what to do with the result
05:22<joepie91>but right now the *format* of the "content data" packets will vary based on stream state :)
05:22<joepie91>Rubidium: btw, packet length comes before packet type
05:22<joepie91>not after
05:41<@Rubidium>you should've mentioned that when I wrote it ;)
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06:02<Samu>woah, Nvidia is on a roll, releasing crashing drivers one after another
06:03<Samu>good thing I use AMD
06:09<joepie91>Rubidium: hmm? you wrote the content protocol, or? :P
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06:52<darksecond>Playing openttd again, cargodist is very cool :D
07:08<@Rubidium>joepie91: most of it, I reckon
07:11<joepie91>Rubidium: on that note, I think there's a bug in it
07:11<joepie91>you have a size check that seems off
07:12<joepie91>in void ClientNetworkContentSocketHandler::RequestContentList(ContentVector *cv, bool send_md5sum)
07:12<joepie91>length assert is missing the uint8 that's being written
07:13<joepie91>so it's going to be one byte off for the estimated length of each item
07:13<joepie91>actual length of an item is 21 or 5, not 20 or 4 :)
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07:13<joepie91>posted this here yesterday as well but I guess it got lost in the conversation
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07:18<joepie91>also, void ClientNetworkContentSocketHandler::RequestContentList(uint count, const ContentID *content_ids) has comments and a size check claiming that it writes a byte for the content type but I'm not seeing any such byte being written
07:20<@Rubidium>probably the cause of refactoring during development; could you make a patch for those issues and make a bug report with the patch attached to that (i.e. a tracker issue of type bug with a patch, not of type patch because that's generally for features and less well read)
07:20<@Rubidium>in any case I won't be doing anything with it as I don't have the required tools with me right now
07:21<joepie91>Rubidium: I don't speak C++, so I'm not confident enough that I can write a correct patch :P
07:22<joepie91>I can file a bug though
07:29<Samu>question. I found a bug that only happens on 64-bit of openttd. Which category in flyspray is appropriate for this kind of bugs?
07:29<Samu>build system'
07:30<Samu>it's the lzo bug i've been talking about, i figured as much i might fill a bug report about it
07:33<@Rubidium>who knows?
07:33<@Rubidium>but are you sure it is an OpenTTD bug and not an LZO bug?
07:33<@Rubidium>or maybe a bug in the LZO library you are using?
07:34<Samu>i tested the official trunk and 1.6.0, it happens there too
07:34<Samu>only on the 64-bit
07:34<Samu>32-bit is fine
07:34<Samu>win 9x also fine
07:35<Samu>Unexpected end of chunk when loading LZO compressed saves
07:37<Samu>i downloaded from and
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08:37<Samu>I found a bug in BusyBee
08:37<Samu>how do i report a bug for this?
08:38<ST2> - check 1st the issues already reported there
08:38<Samu>Number of years to wait to fullfill a new goal: 3, but when i click the arrow to diminish this value, it goes up to 4
08:39<Samu>4 is the minimum I can set if i change that value from default of 3
08:40<ST2>by default: GSInfo.AddSetting({name="wait_years", (...) min_value=4,
08:41<ST2>somewhat hard_value=3, maybe the cause of 3 appear xD
08:41<Samu>im not gonna register to that website :(
08:47<Darksecond>cargodist makes the game a lot more challengeing
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08:49<andythenorth>cargodist changes my play style a bit
08:50<Darksecond>how so?
08:51<andythenorth>the most obvious is the automation of transfers, especially pax
08:51<andythenorth>doing that without cargodist is blah
08:51<andythenorth>peter1138: yacd :P
08:51<Samu>cargo personality
08:52<andythenorth>for freight, cargodist tends to perform poorly with more than two routes per pickup station
08:52<@planetmaker>Samu, what's wrong with registering with the openttdcoop website?
08:53<andythenorth>if a third route is added, it takes a long time recalculate and rebalance the cargo
08:53<Darksecond>andythenorth: you wouldn't recommend cargodist for freight?
08:53<andythenorth>it’s better to add a new pickup station, and let station rating balance cargo allocation
08:54<andythenorth>I use it for freight, but I have found the edge cases, and fonso has explained to me how it works
08:54*andythenorth was going to update cargodist wiki page, but never did :P
08:54<andythenorth>also for pax, it looks obvious to connect all routes together
08:54<andythenorth>that is a very poor strategy
08:54<andythenorth>better to build quite isolated networks
08:55<Darksecond>really? seems more fun to build one big network
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08:56<Darksecond>so that's what I'm doing right now, cargodist pax with one big network :)
08:57<andythenorth>biggest misconception is that cargodist assigns cargo a specific destination, it doesn’t
08:57<Darksecond>how so? it even says 'from ... via ... to ...' in the little window thing
08:58<andythenorth>it’s based on ‘next hop’ rather than specific destination
08:59<andythenorth>it works out about the same, but it’s more like flow in pipes
08:59<Darksecond>so they will get on the first train that goes to the next hop? instead of a direct line?
09:01<andythenorth>not sure exactly
09:01<andythenorth>but it’s much easier to understand as a system of pipes, with stations as splitters
09:01<andythenorth>and it uses distance and link capacity like valves to control proportions
09:01<andythenorth>to people who can think algorithmically, I think that’s not a useful distinction
09:01<andythenorth>but to people who think cargodist is actually simulating, e.g. preferences of individual passengers, it matters
09:02<Darksecond>ah :)
09:02<Darksecond>makes sense
09:02<Darksecond>what I do like is how some stations slowly become 'hubs' of sorts :)
09:03<andythenorth>it makes playing with airports much more satisfying
09:03<andythenorth>airports can be fed from neighbouring towns
09:04*joepie91 finds airports to be a capacity nightmare
09:04<andythenorth>just don’t overfeed them
09:04<joepie91>turns out it's quite easy to do that
09:04<joepie91>much more success with long-distance trains
09:05<joepie91>bah, there's a bug in my parser...
09:05*joepie91 vanishes again
09:06<joepie91>whee, found another bug in OpenTTD source
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09:22<Wolf01>gah researched the electric furnace before plastic :|
09:22<@peter1138>no bugs, just features
09:23<joepie91>fine, fine, misfeatures then :D
09:26<joepie91>Rubidium: any chance I could pick your brain for a minute?
09:26<joepie91>my parser is mis-parsing and I can't quite work out why
09:28<joepie91>oh, hold on, I think I found the problem
09:28<joepie91>yep, solved :D
09:28<joepie91>forgot to advance my pointer after encountering a nullbyte in a string
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10:28<_dp_>hi, did tropic landgen change in 1.6? doesn't seem to generate any hills whatsoever now
10:28<_dp_>and there is nothing about it in changelog
10:30<_dp_>I mean it does it on hilly, but there were plenty on "very flat" too previously
10:30<_dp_>now it's just desert
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10:38<_dp_>oh damn, that's what "tune down" meant, everything is more flat now
10:38<_dp_>how do I get back old settings then?
10:41<Samu>.time to work on version 3
10:41<_dp_>will it be enough if I just revert r27230?
10:42<andythenorth>_dp_: desert has been flat for some time
10:42<andythenorth>desert / tropic
10:42<andythenorth>it’s absolutely crap :)
10:43<andythenorth>you can patch it yourself trivially, just copy the temperate code in the switch, it works well
10:43<@Alberth>probably since MHL got added?
10:43<_dp_>well, what I'm talking about changed in 1.6.0, there are plenty of trees in 1.5.3
10:44<@Alberth>different tree algorithm?
10:44<_dp_>Alberth, nah, it's more flat now and trees only spawn on hills in tropic
10:45<@Alberth>ah, ok
10:45<_dp_>Alberth, it seems it was your change actually ;)
10:46<@Alberth>chill change actually
10:47<@Alberth>he tried to fix the long slopes in MHL added openttd, which worked, a bit too well, perhaps, even :)
10:48<@Alberth>some parts were later reverted iirc
10:48<@Alberth>maybe this one should have been reverted too
10:48<supermop>is it just me or is their no slide/page/board size in powerpoint
10:49<supermop>like i cant set the size or ratio of these things they are just always 4
10:50<supermop>why would anyone use this as a design tool
10:50<supermop>except for the situation i'm in now where my boss told me to
10:51<_dp_>ah, I dealt with mhl by setting max_heightlevel back to 15, so I guess that's why it's affecting me now xD
10:51<@Alberth>heights settings are not entirely correctly implemented any more, iirc
10:52<@Alberth>too many things are set in absolute values
10:52<_dp_>well, it seemed to do the job)
10:52<@Alberth>which breaks if you change max height
10:53<_dp_>yeah, also config settings are same as gui ones
10:54<_dp_>so if you change what "very flat" means it also breaks existing configs
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11:18<@Alberth>one could convert from number to percentage num*100/16 :)
11:20<joepie91>my protocol parser works :D
11:20<joepie91>content downloads and all!
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11:35<frosch123>_dp_: try with max height levels set to 16
11:35<frosch123>tropic does a height transformation, which tries to create mostly low land with a few peaks
11:35<frosch123>this is broken with mhgl
11:36<frosch123>vice versa, artic tries to generate high land with a few valleys
11:36<frosch123>this is broken with mhl, and thus people complain about no forests in arctic :p
11:36<_dp_>frosch123, already have it at 15 since mhl introduction)
11:36<frosch123>ok, i expected the mapgen would work then :)
11:37<tony>Hi, is anyone here familiar with Clueless plus AI, and the NoCarGoal game script?
11:37<frosch123>several people here played nocargoal several times
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11:38<tony>@frosch123 cool, I was looking to extending the cluesless AI that should work with it but from what I can tell, it doesn't?
11:39<frosch123>are you refering to the "script communication protocol"?
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11:41<tony>Yeah, the SCP.
11:42<frosch123> <- according to that you need at least cluelessplus version 35
11:44<Samu>what do you think?
11:45<andythenorth>bloody mapgen :D
11:45<Samu>the logic behind the choice of an encoding speed when a save request
11:45<Samu>... uh... is requested
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11:47<Samu>do you have other suggestions?
11:47<Samu>or do you agree?
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12:00<tony>I think it maybe because the Game Script is using 1.2 of SCP but the AI 1.3.
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12:20<frosch123>@calc (1460 - 2 - 1 - 1) / 5
12:20<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 291.2
12:20<frosch123>@calc (1460 - 2 - 1 - 1) / 21
12:20<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 69.3333333333
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12:28<Samu>hmm :(
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13:09<Samu>could openttd delete savegame function actually move the file to the recycle bin?
13:13<@Rubidium>not reliably across all platforms I guess
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13:17<Samu>oh right
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13:32<Samu>i actually like the idea of user defined variables
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14:01<Samu>Clamp(2, 0, 9) this checks if 2 is inside a range that goes from 0 to 9?
14:02<Samu>but it doesn't return a true, it returns 2
14:02<@Alberth>read the documentation of the function?
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14:07<Samu>oh, i see, makes sense, sorry
14:13<Samu>this is all starting to make sense
14:13<Samu>at last
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14:26<Samu>i have a dilema, need your input
14:26<Samu>do you mind if i set min.compression for ZLIB to 1?
14:26<Samu>because 0 doesn't even compress
14:26<Samu>it stores uncompressed
14:27<Samu>and there's already a "none" for that
14:32<Samu>:(, i'm setting the min to 1, hope it's okay
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14:36<Samu>as for lzma, 7, 8 and 9 are actually doing worse than lzma:6
14:36<Samu>but require more memory
14:37<Samu>and slightly slower
14:38<Samu>lzma:9 is especially bad for 32-bits
14:38<Samu>game might runs out of memory if the map is large
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14:59<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:10*andythenorth builds the world’s worst 4 way junction
15:12<andythenorth>screenshot, or not true:
15:13<Wolf01>nice one
15:18<frosch123>do you have 90° turns enabled?
15:19<Wolf01>I think he overbuilt
15:19<andythenorth>yeah I have 90º turns enabled
15:20<andythenorth>I used to disable it, but balls to that realism crap
15:20<andythenorth>90º is needed for ships to work on rivers
15:20<andythenorth>and it makes it more fun also
15:24<andythenorth>oops, that 4 way distracted me, forgot to do my BB goals :)
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15:55<@peter1138>Not realism, it just looks shit when trains do it.
15:55<@peter1138>Also º is still not a degrees symbol :p
15:59<frosch123>apparently it is some spanish character
15:59<frosch123>"masculine ordinal indicator"
15:59<frosch123>no idea what that means
15:59<@Alberth>it counts men :p
16:01<andythenorth>one day I’ll find the degree symbol :D
16:01<andythenorth>if I try enough key combos
16:01<sim-al2>It's fun to how almost all special characters fail in my IRC client
16:02<frosch123>switch it to utf-8
16:03<sim-al2>I can't, as far as I can tell
16:04<frosch123>you are missing out on all the ö, œ and ø
16:04<andythenorth>also the magic quotes
16:05<+glx>« and » ?
16:05*andythenorth wonders about fixing station construction window
16:07<sim-al2>Yeah, I see lot's of this: “no”
16:08<sim-al2>"you are missing out on all the ö, œ and ø"
16:09<sim-al2>It works on Chatzilla of course, but I do like this interface more
16:09<frosch123>andythenorth: i never understood quotes "'«»‘’‚‛“”„‟‹›⍘⍞❛❜❝❞��❮❯〝〞〟"
16:10<andythenorth>fun aren’t they?
16:11<andythenorth>sim-al2: “lots”
16:11<frosch123>i mean how many rotations are positions can a ' possibly have?
16:11<andythenorth>are there quote emojis?
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16:11*andythenorth looks
16:11<@Alberth>/me wonders about emoji cargo
16:11<andythenorth>oh they’re just unicode points or something I guess
16:12<@Alberth>or quote cargo, for that matter
16:12<frosch123>andythenorth: ☹☺☻〠 <- those?
16:12<andythenorth>really, there’s an emoji for the Wuppertal suspension monorail? :o
16:12<andythenorth>that seems overkill
16:12<@Alberth>not all, I think, just the ones in the official unicode tables
16:17<Samu>i had an idea
16:18<Samu>could the minimap information run on a separate thread?
16:18<frosch123>i had a dream
16:18<Samu>just wondering
16:19<frosch123>i discussed with eddi, what kind of synchronisation objects it woudl require to run a computer with countable infinite cores
16:19<frosch123>i blame it on samu for waiting indefinitely for infinity
16:23<andythenorth>there is a godwin law equivalent that applies to countable and non-countable infinity
16:24<andythenorth>converting to electrified track has explosion sound effect
16:24*andythenorth normally plays with sound off, because crossing bells
16:25<frosch123>sounds like everyone does who uses convert-track :p
16:26<frosch123>CcPlaySound10 plays SND_12_EXPLOSION
16:26<frosch123>makes sense :p
16:27<frosch123>all CcPlaySound are off by two
16:28<@Alberth>Samu: of course it can, deciding beforehand whether it will have the effect you want is the tricky part
16:29<frosch123>andythenorth: <- does that sound better?
16:29<Samu>it is extremely slow when i zoom out the minimap :\
16:29<Wolf01>don't play large maps
16:29<Wolf01>where large >256
16:30<Samu>are these draw calls or something like that?
16:30<frosch123>i still have not found a passive-agressive insult to display when someone selects a mapsize with more than 1M tiles
16:31<@Alberth>"Help, I am lost!"
16:31<Wolf01>something like "oh noes, here we go again with this absurd map size"
16:32<Samu>i had a dream that one day i'd be able to run openttd with 15 AIs + GS on a giant map
16:32<@Alberth>Samu: pixels blitted directly into the displayed memory
16:32<Samu>from 1950 to 2050
16:32*andythenorth has not found a way to educate people about the meaning of passive-aggressive :(
16:33<frosch123>ottd could just generate a smaller map, noone would notice
16:33<Wolf01>"shit I forgot to see how much I took to get electricity in this game"
16:34<Samu>i hope 16 GB of RAM is enough
16:34<Samu>openttd is currently close to 5.9 GB RAM usage
16:34<Samu>for this test
16:34<Wolf01>meanwhile people are hosting on ras.pi
16:35<Samu>only 16 game years have passed though
16:36<@Alberth>you can simply run each AI separately, at that map size, they won't bother each other
16:36<Samu>frames are passing by so slowly
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16:36<andythenorth>frosch123: that sound effect seems better
16:36<Samu>takes about half a second to update mouse cursor
16:37<andythenorth>also withholding the requested map size is genuinely passive aggressive :)
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16:38<sim-al2_2>I've turned off most of the sounds because of the subtropical climate
16:38-!-Hiddenfunstuff [] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)]
16:38<sim-al2_2>(and the damn sawmills in temperate)
16:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27547 trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp (2016-04-19 22:39:08 +0200 )
16:39<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Use a more appropiate sound effect for convert-rail. (andythenorth)
16:39<Wolf01>yeah, that one
16:39<Wolf01>forgot a "R"
16:39<andythenorth>frosch123: I didn’t write the patch :)
16:40<frosch123>well, i didn't even start ottd :p
16:40<andythenorth>he he
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17:02<Samu>yes, i finally figured this
17:02<Samu>const SaveLoadFormat *fmt = GetSavegameFormat(((_savegame_format != NULL) ? _savegame_format : _sendmap_format), &compression);
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17:03<Samu>i have 3 user defined settings for this
17:04<Samu>the already existant _savegame_format
17:04<Samu>1 more i am creating _sendmap_format
17:04<Samu>and another _autosave_format
17:04<Samu>these are user defined in openttd.cfg
17:05<Samu>now I got to work on bools
17:06<Samu>but if there's a better approach for this, plz tell me
17:08<frosch123>the fastest compression is not necessarily the most suitable one
17:09<frosch123>you have to balance it with the network transmission speed
17:09<frosch123>ideally you compress just as fast as you can send data
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17:13<Samu>(_savegame_format != NULL) ? is to be replaced with an ugly mess of bools that will be put in there, i make the bools before passing them into GetSavegameFormat
17:13<Samu>k lets see what I can do, brb
17:14<Samu>ideally, the bools will follow this guidelines:
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19:48<Samu>hmm i have a problem... this clamping feature is annoying
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19:52<Samu>I am coding openttd in a way to use a max_compression for sending maps to clients joining a server, a min_compression for fast forward games, and a default for any other kind of savegame
19:53<Samu>if openttd.cfg has nothing set in "sendmap_format = ", it will use the defaults
19:54<Samu>in the case of lzma, that would be compression level 6
19:54<Samu>however, if someone sets something in there, like "sendmap_format = lzma:9", the clamp function gets in the way
19:55<Samu>it says an error about compression level
19:55<Samu>and sets it to 6
19:56<Samu>it's wrong. level 9 is possible, lzma can work with this level
19:56<Samu>how can I solve this so that when nothing is set, it uses the max default of 6, but if a user sets something up to 9, it uses what the user wants?
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23:44<@Rubidium>why do you want to use levels 7-9?
23:45<@Rubidium>aren't they larger files?
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 20 00:00:36 2016