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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-20

---Logopened Wed Apr 20 00:00:36 2016
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02:17<@peter1138>min compression when fast forward is pressed? odd
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04:37<dvim>Hi all. Is there a way to run OpenTTD on linux in 144Hz refresh rate? I have noticed a configuration option for win32, but that did not work for linux, obviously. The biggest problem with lower refresh rate is the noticeable jitter when moving in-game windows around.
04:46<@planetmaker>dvim, the refresh rate of your video is a system thing. OpenTTD itself - independent of any OS it runs on, renders 30 fps, that's it.
04:47<dvim>planetmaker: ahh okay. Is there a way to make OpenTTD render in a higher framerate?
04:47<@planetmaker>no. But there isn't on windows either.
04:47<@planetmaker>well, of course there is. (re)write the video drivers
04:48<@planetmaker>and that means modifying the game up to its core, breaking up the game loop into smaller chunks
04:49<@planetmaker>what configuration option do you actually refer to?
04:49<dvim>This one:
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04:52<@planetmaker>I actually wonder whether that setting exists... as far as my memory goes, I've never seen it or heard about it in the last 10 years...
04:53<@planetmaker>and I don't find any evidence in the source either so far
04:53<@planetmaker>hm... there actually is
04:55<dvim>The wiki page also mentions full screen. So when the game goes full screen on windows, it probably is able to change screen refresh rate via drivers.
04:55<dvim>That is my best guess.
04:56<@planetmaker>it only has an effect for full-screen
04:56<@planetmaker>but I don't see any evidence in the code that it's a user-configurable setting
04:57<Samu> VERSUS
04:57<dvim>Yea. Anyway, you already clarified that this is not what I am looking for. :) I would like to have OpenTTD render at least 144 frames per second, because this is my monitors refresh rate.
04:58<dvim>But if the refresh rate is tied to the game update logic, then that is going to be hard to do.
04:58<dvim>refresh rate == frames per second...
04:58<@planetmaker>dvim, rendering the same thing 4x in a row and then changing to another thing rendered 4x in a row won't cut it. The 30fps is kinda hard-coded in the foundations
04:58<@planetmaker>or rather 30 milliseconds between frames. So... 33fps
04:59<@planetmaker>The main loop is not faster, thus any change to anything in the game is not calculated faster anyway. So refreshing the display faster won't help
05:00<@planetmaker>it would need separating out drawing the view from the game loop while ensuring that no inconsistent data are drawn
05:00<@planetmaker>which is probably as much work as rewriting large portions of the game
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05:01<dvim>Yea. I understand. I had a hobby project game which had logic refresh rate tightly coupled to the fps. And then I wanted to decouple it which was quite hard.
05:02<dvim>I can imagine it gets quite complicated for a complex game such as OpenTTD.
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05:12<Samu>lines 87, 88, 89 and 96, 97, 98 will decide on the compression level, while line 124 will decide on the encoder choice. I wonder if what code retuns follows this guideline
05:12<Samu>typoes... grrr
05:13<Samu>lines 87, 88, 89 and 96, 97, 98 will decide on the compression level, while line 124 will decide on the encoder choice. I wonder if what the code returs follows this guideline
05:14<Samu>I'm reusing the existant savegame_format for the manual saves
05:20<@peter1138>There's no point rendering faster than the game loop as things don't change.
05:21<@peter1138>The only exception is when scrolling a viewport. I had a patch for that...
05:22<@peter1138>I also had a patch for skipping frames when using fast forward.
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05:52<Samu>these checks seem to be sufficient
05:55<@Rubidium>dvim: just enable fast forward
05:56<@Rubidium>although, on Linux there might also be limitations in SDL for certain things limiting the amount of updates that can be done
05:57<@Rubidium>as in: I seem to remember not doing one last step for pushing data to the video made fast forward in a light game with lots of movement significantly faster. But that's long ago and SDL might have changed since
06:10<Samu>sort my encoding speed
06:10<Samu>tell me, how much time would u be waiting
06:10<Samu>before getting fed up of waiting
06:11<dvim>Rubidium: aha. Fast forward makes everything, including moving in-game windows smooth. It probably removes that 30ms delay that planetmaker mentioned, right?
06:11<Samu>actually, sort by total time, it also includes memcopy
06:11<@Rubidium>dvim: yup
06:11<dvim>The only problem is that now a couple of years are going to pass in between my train builds. :)
06:13<Samu>my problem right now, is finding an acceptable "slow" value
06:14<Samu>imagine there's 10 clients waiting in queue
06:14<Samu>each client takes "insert total time" to get the map, the 10th client would have to wait "insert total time"*9 to start receiving his map
06:15<@Rubidium>dvim: maybe there are some ways to make it better by changing some code, but I'm not sure whether it's going to make it actually better when the game gets busier as it's spending the whole 30 ms or more in just the game loop and not doing other screen updates
06:16<Samu>hmm... distributing the map as a torrent wouldn't be that bad of an idea
06:16<Samu>but meh... let's not get into that
06:16<@Rubidium>Samu: you're sure?
06:17<@Rubidium>because then you need to add even more overhead to tell the clients to save at a particular time. If they were saving, then that client will have to wait until the data becomes available
06:17<@Rubidium>if that client is already barely keeping up and needs to provide the last chunk of data, then you have to wait really long (tm) to join and you gain nothing
06:18<@Rubidium>also, what makes you think other's upload speeds are reasonable?
06:18<Samu>it's a bad idea
06:19<Samu>yea i remember when i had a limited connection, i was always complaining about blizzard downloads being torrents
06:22<@peter1138>Rubidium, yeah, that was one of the issues with my patch. once the game got heavy it would start delaying frames
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06:27<@Rubidium>but I guess the best to ensure fastest join time is to determine the server's upload speed, the server's compression speeds and the client's download speed and based on those three variables (and the available savegame formats) determine the best compression settings
06:28<@peter1138>simple solution. don't play stupid 4096x4096 maps
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06:29<@Rubidium>hmm... actually, server upload/client download speed needs to be determined in one go, after all... if the server and client have a 1 GB connection to a speedtest server, but only a 14k4 line between the server and the client, then the calculations will go totally wrong
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06:49<Samu>well, suppose I'm a client with an horrible download speed
06:49<Samu>i'd prefer the server to send me the most compressed possible format
06:50<Samu>but this is bad for some other client with a GODLY connection, that format is gonna take a long time to finish encoding
06:50<Samu>there has to be an acceptable balance :(
06:54<Samu>what is the max download time ? brb gonna check
06:55<Samu>32000 - this value is ticks?
06:56<Samu>how much is this in seconds
06:57<@Rubidium>rule of thumb... tick is 30ms
06:58<Samu>max_download_time = 1000 as default
07:05<Samu>960 seconds, or 30 seconds
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07:24<_dp_>client can request specific compression when connecting
07:24<_dp_>that's one option at least, people with slow connections can set high compression in options
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07:36<@Rubidium>_dp_: looks like the perfect DOS attack
07:37<@Rubidium>either pass none or lzma:9 to have maximum bandwidth or maximum CPU usage
07:37<@Rubidium>even then, how many clients are going to change that? And how much does it help in the end?
07:39<@Rubidium>currently it's LZMA:2 by default, now lets assume you have a slow connection and assume Samu's calculations
07:40<@Rubidium>LZMA:2 takes 12 seconds to save, LZMA:9 takes 72 for 12.3 vs 10.8 MiB
07:41<@Rubidium>so, for the 60 seconds to make sense that should mean downloading the 11 MB should take more than 66 seconds (5 seconds for just preparing game state)
07:42<@Rubidium>which would mean a speed of ~170 kBps (~1400 kBps) or lower
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07:44<@Rubidium>and that in it's own means that either you are delaying the game of others by over a minute (pause-on-join) or you have to somehow figure out to get up to speed quickly
07:45<@Rubidium>since this game is huge, I do not think that one minute can be made good within the default alotted time, actually the 66 seconds is way over the default download time limit
07:51<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> i discussed with eddi, what kind of synchronisation objects it woudl require to run a computer with countable infinite cores <- that's easy, you just have to daisy-chain the cores :p
07:57<@Rubidium>just run a SP Linux kernel; problems solved
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, the main problem you will face is that each core can only communicate with a finite number of cores ahead/behind itself
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>so you need a method for indirect communication
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>but basically, there should be no difference between an infinite number of cores, and an unknown and variable number of cores (say, the internet)
08:03<Wolf01>a common stack? the first core which finishes its current process can pop the next one from the stack
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>programs like BOINC usually send out the same process to multiple targets
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>and then compare/discard results
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08:12<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: except that with the internet you, in theory, have some sort of known upper limit of connected machines/cores
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08:12<@Rubidium>like 2**128
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: except you have NAT and stuff
08:12<@Rubidium>as the rest is not connected, or you are talking to a number of NAT-ed nodes that you cannot reach
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>so behind each of the 2**128 cores you could have a 2**128 private network
08:13<@Rubidium>though in that case you're just daisy-chaining the 2**128 "cores" together
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>but that's what i meant with "you can only communicate with a finite subset"
08:13<@Rubidium>in the grand scheme of things, it's still O(1) connected cores
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08:14<Wolf01>this pc BSODs too much
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>of course, no real physical object can ever be infinite
08:14<Wolf01>maybe a fractal one
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>but a fractal one would mean each layer is less powerful than the previous
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>which means you have some dimension where you get a finite limit
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08:21<Wolf01>from the "size" point of view?
08:24<Samu>well, for "compatibility" purposes, I'm setting slow equal to default
08:25<Samu>both zlib and lzma
08:26<Samu>i rather not ruin any existant configuration
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09:32<Samu>posted it
09:32<Samu>still have to edit main post, or it becomes a mess
09:33<Samu>I don't know why I still call it faster server autosaves.... it's more than that now
09:35<V453000>heyo there
09:36<supermop>what s up
09:36<V453000>busy as hell but it is awesome
09:39<@Rubidium>what is that, productivity?
09:44<V453000>random word I saw on the internet
09:44<V453000>because internet is the seed of productivity
09:45<V453000>major wisdom to be gathered in cat pictures
09:49<V453000>explains why andy is searching for cat
09:49<V453000>in fact he seeks enlightenment
09:49<supermop>i am beat from 3 weeks of fast product development cycle
09:50*Rubidium didn't see enlightenment under Buddha's tree and darkness already fell
09:50<supermop>3 weeks may be kind of short for a software product but its insane for a product made out of cast and forged steel
09:51<supermop>including trying to coordinate with factory 12 hours different
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10:25<Wolf01>I can't find productivity, every kind of try I made didn't output a successfull result :(
10:26<V453000>well you at least learnt how not to do it I believe?
10:26<V453000>that is also progress
10:26<V453000>in the latest thing I have been doing, I have learned many things the hard way
10:26<Wolf01>I learnt that factorio is more productive, not for me thought
10:27<V453000>? XD
10:28<@Alberth>maybe you can find enlightenment about productivity in factorio? :)
10:29<Wolf01>I found bleeding eyes until now, I installed it on my tablet and I play with it until late night
10:30<V453000>factorio works on tablet?
10:30<Wolf01>with windows 10 yes
10:30<V453000>oh christ
10:30<V453000>how do you control it? :D
10:30<V453000>do you plug keyboard/mouse to your tablet?
10:30<Wolf01>bluetooth mouse and keyboard, I tried with touch but it's a pain in the ass
10:30<V453000>then that makes perfect sense :D
10:32<V453000>I am looking for 0.13, then I might play a bit of factorio myself :)
10:32<V453000>until then probably not :d
10:32<Wolf01>also since my pc broke up I can't test things in the right way (this one seem that can't run emulators) and it seem to bsod every now and then... some whings I'm trying to learn doesn't seem to work the way I expect and this is depressing, so I lose most of my time playing
10:33<Wolf01>because "w" is just right of the "t", I can't even know how I can make some typos...
10:35<V453000>well playing factorio is time well spent :P
10:38<Wolf01>if I want to become a factory planner, yes
10:50<V453000>eh, #logicalthinking
10:50<V453000> #grindingshitloadofresources
10:50<V453000> #knowledgefromkillingaliens
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11:00<Wolf01>mmmh, I might need to do a transparent trees mod for factorio too
11:01<Wolf01>which allows to remove what is behind trees without touching them
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11:01<V453000>wrecking nature is the top priority in factorio
11:04<Wolf01>Mary had a little tree near a rock, I put a crate there with useless stuff, too bad I also put a wooden pole behind the tree and after some time I needed to remove it because a belt was more likely to stay there... but trying to do that I chopped the tree and Mary is now sad
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11:04<Wolf01>mmmh all the trees around the 15 power plants are dying
11:05<Wolf01>I don't like dead trees
11:05<V453000>kill them further
11:05<Wolf01>time to chop them down
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11:19<Wolf01>mmh, now I only need the personal roboport
11:20<Wolf01>which mean I need to do the other research branch to be able to make the power armor, the blue science kits and all that stuff :(
11:21<Wolf01>also I can't produce enough steel for all that stuff
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12:42<Samu>im doing something wrong with this check
12:42<Samu>fastforward saves aren't working correctly
12:42<Samu>not picking the correct format :(
12:44<Samu>or rather... the correct compression level :(
12:44<Samu>format is correct, not the level
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13:11<Samu>there's something wrong with this check _pause_mode = PM_UNPAUSED)
13:11<Samu>if (_pause_mode = PM_UNPAUSED)
13:12<Samu>how do i check if it's true that the game is unpaused? :p
13:14<Samu>if (_pause_mode & PM_UNPAUSED)
13:16<@Alberth>try == instead of =
13:18<+glx>else the test is equivalent to if (PM_UNPAUSED) ;)
13:20<Samu>ahm that fixed Alberth
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13:40<Samu>alright, posting new patch, brb
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14:03<Samu>need to test dedicated server
14:03<Samu>how do i launch openttd from visual studio as a dedicated server?
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14:38<Xaroth|Work>add commandline arguments?
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14:41<supermop>you andythenorth
14:42<supermop>statement is still valid; you are andythenorth
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14:43<andythenorth>quak also
14:47*andythenorth lets Civil AI build roads everywhere
14:47<andythenorth>no need for any more trains in this map, just use RVs :P
14:48*andythenorth has escape depots in this game, hope I get points for that
14:51<andythenorth>300t train, 2800hp
14:51<andythenorth>accelerates to top speed instantly :o
14:51<andythenorth>(top speed is 40mph, it’s a metro train)
14:54<supermop>i feel like the subway here accellerates to top speed instantly if the driver doesn't give a shit
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15:04<andythenorth>is forums today?
15:05<V453000>cat only
15:05<V453000>also, hello good sir
15:06<andythenorth>not so forums eh
15:06<V453000>wat there?
15:06<andythenorth>nothing interestin
15:07<andythenorth>this haz drawn loads
15:08<V453000>I find it strongly offputting how the cargo is flat at the top
15:09<andythenorth>lazy drawing?
15:09<V453000>I guess
15:09<andythenorth>artist probably in a hurry
15:10<supermop>chute seems to be scraping it off flat
15:11<andythenorth>this author has not read the ‘no war themes’ guideline :(
15:11<andythenorth>can’t put that on bananas
15:11<V453000>obviously supermop
15:11<V453000>I just hate it
15:12<supermop>lazy chute engineer
15:12<andythenorth>only used 1CC, boring
15:12<andythenorth>and then some silly realisms liveries
15:13<supermop>maybe that howitzer is to be used for avalanche control
15:14<andythenorth>fair point
15:16<supermop>patch to allow building houses over rail
15:17<supermop>5 years ago that was entirely an open yard
15:18*andythenorth wonders if that’s Trump
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15:20<supermop>actually he doesnt have any stake in the hudson yards development
15:20<supermop>cant think of any significant successful development he's done in the city they last 15 years off hand
15:24<andythenorth>polar bear is a marine mammal
15:24*andythenorth looking at names for a ship set
15:24<andythenorth>ha, Sea Otter is nice
15:33<supermop>SQUID 2: Otter?
15:34<supermop>Otter 2: sponge
15:45<supermop>somebody write a "train tips over" patch
15:46<andythenorth>I don’t fathom that one
15:46<andythenorth>unless those are pushers / DPUs, or they were reversing
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15:47<andythenorth>maybe the rail turned under the second loco, or it picked the switch
15:48*andythenorth train nerd
15:50<andythenorth>I could just call this ship set FISH,
15:51<V453000>omg XD
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15:52<sim-al2>That wouldn't cause any confusion what-so-ever
15:52<V453000>ANUS New Ultimate Ships
15:53<andythenorth>they won’t be Ultimate
15:53<andythenorth>also no more recursive acronyms :P
15:53<V453000>then why new set
15:53<V453000>recursive for lyfe
15:53<andythenorth>because don’t like the current one
15:53<andythenorth>but iz players and contributors
15:54<andythenorth>also cries of “why andythenorth, why” if I change it
15:54<andythenorth>fucking FIRS 2 situation all over again
15:54<V453000>well then you probably have plans for the next one to be better, possibly the best in your mind, so ultimate :>
15:54<V453000>yeah I get your problem
15:54<V453000>just give less shit about opinions and follow your objective reasoning
15:55<andythenorth>objective reasoning is ‘make new set let players keep using old set, care not'
15:55<V453000>I made changes to nuts that people didn't like, but when I explained it to them, they agreed in the end
15:55<V453000>fair enough :)
15:55<andythenorth>just needs name :P
15:55<andythenorth>‘but why andythenorth is bananas full of unfinished ship sets'
15:55<andythenorth>also servers with multiple ship sets ha ha ha
15:56<andythenorth>all same ships, different names
15:56<V453000>banned for spamming incomplete things
15:56<V453000>I go
15:56<andythenorth>basically more CC
15:57<ST2>oh crap, we're using Iron Horse for a tournament next May 1st - probably players will notice: DAMN, bought an engine and no motor on it?!
16:06<frosch123>andythenorth: what's wrong with the sea monsters? :p
16:08<andythenorth>scary :)
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16:12<andythenorth>Moby Dick? o_O
16:12<andythenorth>Jaws :)
16:12<andythenorth>but then Speilberg will sue me :P
16:12<andythenorth>and James Bond
16:14<frosch123>isn't moby dick by jules verne? i.e. copyright-free?
16:14<+glx>not jules verne
16:15<andythenorth>Herman Melvile?
16:15<andythenorth>I started reading it recently somewhere
16:18<supermop>certainly melvile not verne
16:19<supermop>the "great american novel" and whatnot
16:19<supermop>andythenorth: we all have to read it in high school here
16:20<andythenorth>Great White Whale
16:21<supermop>what more is needed for ships?
16:22<supermop>squid seems both sufficient and "done"
16:25<andythenorth>Squid is crap
16:25<andythenorth>it’s ugly
16:27<frosch123>upgrade to lobster maybe
16:27<supermop>boats look likes boats
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16:27<supermop>im a satisfied customer
16:28<frosch123>he, andythenorth: you could punish the forum people by naming ships after them :p
16:28<supermop>but certainly i don't recall there being anything "unfinished" in it
16:30<andythenorth>this is why I want to do a new one :)
16:30<andythenorth>the things that irritate me about it are probably not obvious when playing the game :
16:31<andythenorth>no point breaking one that people like ;)
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16:47<Samu>i read a bit of lzo documentation, it supports multilevels
16:47<Samu>it's not properly implemented in openttd though :(
16:48<Samu>same range as the others, 0 to 9
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16:49<Samu>the coding style is so darn different from the examples i see
16:50<supermop>i wonder if i can put surfboard on wedding registry
16:51<Samu>it says it's C
16:51<Samu>C is a language, right?
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>you'll get something about mid-life-crisis as a reply :p
16:52<supermop>i should hope i'm not old enough for mid life crisis yet
16:53<supermop>although if so i don't need to worry about my non-existent retirement savings...
16:53<Samu>OpenTTD is C++, lzo is C, how are they even compatible?
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17:02<Samu>there's a asm build of lzo
17:02<Samu>build or code, whatever this is
17:05<Samu>ok, my next goal is trying to make lzo work how it should
17:05<Samu>with levels 0 to 9
17:05<Samu>will you help?
17:05<Samu>im dealing with code outside openttd, lzo code
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17:09<sim-al2_2>I think C++ is an extension of C with more features
17:10<sim-al2_2>Apparently it was orginally named "C with classes"
17:11<Samu>what have you guys done with lzma and zlib? the technique you use? i must find where to read in lzo docs to do something similat to that of lzma and zlib
17:11<_dp_>aha, but now there are so many features it almost completely changed twice language... twice...
17:12<Samu>reading LZO.FAQ atm, "Can you give a cookbook for using pre-compressed data ?"
17:12<_dp_>*one twice too much
17:12<Samu>is that it?
17:12<Samu>pre-compressed data?
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17:20<Samu>overlap.c ?
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18:16<Samu>t.t no help
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>oh, KSP update
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18:28*Supercheese really should play KSP some time
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>i had some good fun, but i kinda got distracted by the "which mods to try" metagame
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>and starting the game with mods took forever
18:30<Samu>((128 * 1024L) + (128 * 1024L) / 16 + 64 + 3)
18:30<Samu>how much is this?
18:30<Samu>i dont know how to calculate this thing
18:31<Samu>128 * 1024L
18:39<Samu>great :(
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18:41<Samu>ok i give up, this is too much for my head
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18:59<Samu>what do u think of auto-loan?
19:00<Samu>performing an action that costs money, raises loan to maximum, performs the action, reduces loan to minimum
19:00<Samu>:( i'm bored
19:18<supermop_>apparently i left work later than i hoped
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>is that not the normal way these things go?
19:19<supermop_>better than yesterday, when i left at 8:45 and the polls closed at 9:00
19:19<supermop_>and my poling place was 15 minutes away
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause>serves you right for living in a place that has polls on weekdays
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21:39<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: ideally the goal is to make it a public holiday, but that faces opposition from the people who stand to lose if the people who cannot afford to take off from hourly work to go vote were able to vote in larger numbers
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>just make it on a sunday, like a civilized country
21:41<supermop_>the same people oppose that for the same reasons
21:43<supermop_>current electoral laws in this country mean that the electorate skews older, more affluent, suburban, and whiter than the adult population as a whole
21:44<supermop_>and new york is fairly liberal in having its polls stay open from 7 am to 9pm
21:45<supermop_>more conservative states have polls close much earlier, or even require that you show a driver's license or similar to vote
21:47<supermop_>although those laws are fairly new and being challenged in the courts now
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 21 00:00:37 2016