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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-22

---Logopened Fri Apr 22 00:00:39 2016
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05:58<Wolf01>o/
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09:00<Wolf01>I think V453000 already knows that forum is broken down...
09:05<@peter1138>who what
09:17<V453000>because it was useless?
09:26<@peter1138>what who
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>doctor?
09:40-!-supermop [~supermop@static-71-249-209-97.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
09:43<supermop>good morning
09:49<@Rubidium>good evening
09:51<supermop>asia megacity weather today
09:51<supermop>70 now with high of 79, but hazy and very humid
09:51<supermop>makes me wish i was in Sai Gon
09:52<@Rubidium>oh, then it's really cool here... only 40
09:53<supermop>ha
09:53<supermop>thankfully not 40 yet here
09:53<@Rubidium>but then, I am in asia megacity (I'd guess)
09:54<supermop>just a week and a half ago it was still as cold as 40 here and i was wishing it would be as hot as 40
09:54<supermop>which one?
09:55<@Rubidium>the 8th Asian one by size
09:55<supermop>ha by what sizing criteria?
09:55<supermop>counting surrounding provincial population, or city proper only?
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's barely even 10 here
09:56<supermop>should have worn shorts to the office here
09:56<@Rubidium>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megacity <- that definition
09:56<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: at least it's not 10
09:56<supermop>im in the 8th overall by that chart then
09:58<@Rubidium>when I go to home I'll get in the "other", less sweaty 40 degrees
09:59<supermop>surprised berlin didn't crack that list
09:59<supermop>seems like it would have a wide enough outlying area
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>berlin has only like 4.5 million
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>(i think it peaked in the 1920s with 6 million)
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>turns out, massive war destruction and divided isolation isn't good for city growth
10:00*Rubidium wonders what belongs to a city and what doesn't belong to a city
10:01<@Rubidium>e.g. Enschede is said to be in the outskirts of Amsterdam, but that would imply it is relatively close, right?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, just that there's hardly any non-urban area inbetween
10:01<supermop>Rubidium: opinions differ on that
10:02<@Rubidium>well, there's a bit of about 30 kilometer with effectively nothing but forest between Amsterdam and Enschede
10:02<supermop>a lot of people count New York in a way that gives it only like 9 million instead of the 23 or so on that list
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: germany was never as centralized as england or france, so berlin was never that much of an attention center to attract 10 million people on its own. the only german mega-city is the ruhr-area, where many smaller cities basically merged into one metropolitan area
10:03<supermop>Rubidium: i'd say 30 km of forest definitely is the border of the urban area
10:04<@Rubidium>also, Enschede is at the German border at the opposite side of the country as Amsterdam
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there's also a counting which includes Boston, New York and Washington areas into "Bosnywash"
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that just means your country is tiny :p
10:05<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i'd say any city that takes 8 hours by fastest train to traverse on one axis and 20 minutes on the other axis is stretching the definition a bit
10:05<supermop>by car more like 12 hours
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: but how much of the area that you cross from washington to boston is "rural"?
10:06<supermop>and spans 3-4 different climates
10:06<supermop>there are a lot of less developed pockets in central NJ
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10:06<supermop>around princeton
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10:07<supermop>the overall density of NJ is high and homogeneous at a large scale, but on the town or neighborhood scale it is like swiss cheese
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10:07<supermop>same with parts of maryland on the drive between here and DC
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: anyway, the point was that this definition of "megacity" doesn't stop at political city borders, but includes neighbouring cities
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>so if the city of new york has 9 million, the other 12 million come from other cities, like across the river
10:10<supermop>and on long island, etc
10:11<@Rubidium>it's apparantly determined by commuting patterns
10:11<supermop>just stating that the bos-wash concept is a bit extreme as it counts areas that dont commute with each other, and contains many pockets of undeveloped land
10:12<supermop>a few people do commute between washington and NYC by shuttle flights, but that is a tiny percentage, and usually not every day all year
10:12<supermop>just for certain projects or court cases
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>that kinda stretches the definition of "commute"
10:13<supermop>yeah, so i wouldnt count it
10:13<supermop>b that definition a lot of New Yorkers
10:13<supermop>"commute" to LA
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>a german court recently ruled that a commute must end at one single working place, so when you work at different places, the travel to those places is considered work time
10:14<supermop>also some people "commute" from Osaka to Tokyo by Shinkansen
10:14<@Rubidium>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiheiy%C5%8D_Belt
10:14<@Rubidium>is similar to your BosWash
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, very
10:15<@Rubidium>but nevertheless, it's about the average commute not the extremes
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>but by that definition, you'd also merge Amsterdam and the Rhein-Ruhr area
10:16<supermop>i guess it does get fuzzy in Princeton NJ, where maybe 35% of people commute to NYC, and 35% commute to Philadelphia, and the rest work locally
10:17<supermop>in Connecticut no one commutes to Boston,
10:17<supermop>but in Rhode Island, some Commute to Boston and some commute to Conecticut
10:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's even worse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
10:18<supermop>Rubidium: commute over the Alps?
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>crossing the north sea and the alps is really stretching it :p
10:18<@Rubidium>it's on Wikipedia, so it must be true
10:21<supermop>It always strikes me, when I fly from my parents city in Ohio back to NYC at night,
10:21<@Rubidium>though Greater Copenhagen also contains Malmo
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>but on this map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Population_density.png you can clearly see how differently structured decentralized germany is from centralized france
10:22<supermop>that almost as soon as you take off you can start to see the glowing core of NY
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10:22<Eddi|zuHause>in france you have a giant red blob, and then yellow, and in germany you have loads of tiny red blobs
10:22<supermop>even though its more than 500 miles away and over a mountain range
10:23<supermop>poor showing by central VN on that one
10:23<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I think a major thing in there is the size of the area that is used
10:23<@Rubidium>e.g. Moscow and St Petersburg I would expect as red dots, but they are nowhere to be see
10:23<supermop>Mekong and red river delta show up redder than I expected though
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>possibly
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>i guess data resolution varies by country
10:24<@Rubidium>also in France you see much larger areas with the same shade, so they probably used departements instead of counties that seem to be used in Germany
10:24<@Rubidium>in the Netherlands provinces seem to be used
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10:26<supermop>damnit
10:26<@Rubidium>interestingly enough the Dutch metropolitan area is more or less donut shaped
10:27<supermop>other night our fancy bottle of tobala mezcal we brought back from oaxaca fell off of fridge and broke
10:27<@Rubidium>a ring of large towns around a rural area (which is now effectively protected from urbanisation)
10:28<supermop>then last night, fiance's office was broken into and computers stolen along with the other fancy bottle for mezcal, that she kept at her desk to share with team mates
10:28<supermop>now we need to go back to mexico
10:28<Wolf01>the curse of the mezcal bottle
10:28<supermop>im sure by boss will accept all that as grounds for personal emergency trip to Mexico Ciy
10:28<supermop>city
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>you know you can order stuff on the internet now?
10:29<supermop>not that
10:29<supermop>mezcal is very expensive here
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably hire mexicans over the internet, too :p
10:30<supermop>these bottles were about 30 usd in mexico,
10:30<supermop>and the bottles that were 20 usd there are 150 here
10:30<supermop>and the small distillers dont have any us distribution
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>you probably have to deal with loads of customs stuff to export/import alcohol
10:31<supermop>i didnt want to ask for any wedding gifts, but i think i will put "go to mexico and get me mezcal" on the gift registry
10:31<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: yes, NAFTA doesn't do us individuals any favors
10:31<@Rubidium>so, a round trip seems to be about 500 USD
10:32<@Rubidium>I reckon you may import two bottles, since it's distilled... so the price difference needs to be 250 USD
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: but "over the internet" i meant something like: hire someone in mexico to go to the store and send you a package
10:33<supermop>Rubidium: we get 2L
10:33<@Rubidium>in other words, getting it yourself is about 120 USD more expensive per bottle (assuming you can get it for cheap at the airport)
10:33<supermop>so two 750ml bottles and one 500
10:34<supermop>but you must account for the good cheap food one eats in Mexico
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: make sure to include a letter in the package stating this is a gift for the long friendship you built
10:34<supermop>haha
10:34<supermop>and i will just happen to send a gift for the price of the bottles and shipping plus a little extra
10:35<@Rubidium>if you can't get it for cheap at the airport, you also need to include transport
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's no point in sending a 20$ bottle if you have to pay 100$ customs fees
10:35<@Rubidium>so Eddi|zuHause's idea is better
10:35<supermop>metro is about 0.05 USD
10:36<@Rubidium>no extortion rates for airport links like in the UK and Delhi
10:36<@Rubidium>although India's way better with extortion rates at other places
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>and do absolutely make sure there's no receit for the actual bottle in the package :p
10:36<supermop>but the best mezcal is in Oaxaca, and flights from Mexico DF to OAX are more expensive than flights from JFK to MEX
10:37<supermop>so i guess i should email the Zapotec tour guide we had in Oaxaca
10:37<@Rubidium>I think, in general, a foreigner pays 15 to 25 times more than a local for musea/tourist attractions
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10:39<supermop>of course
10:40<supermop>our tour guide regaled us of the time he accidentally bought a garbage bag full of weed for around 100 usd
10:40<supermop>he having grown up in California assumed that would be a normal price to pay when he moved back
10:49<supermop>sound like most of her work was saved though
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10:53<andythenorth>Alberth: o/
10:53<@Alberth>hi hi :)
10:53<andythenorth>I am playing a BB game on a 256x256 map
10:54<@Alberth>:)
10:54<andythenorth>I am 30 years in, and I would kind of like it to build some new industries
10:54<andythenorth>I wonder if that’s a good idea
10:54<andythenorth>I could just build them myself :P
10:54<@Alberth>would make more sense as an industrial bee :)
10:54<andythenorth>worker bee
10:55<andythenorth>modular bee :P
10:55<andythenorth>GS has libraries?
10:55<@Alberth>worker bee sounds good :)
10:55<@Alberth>there are GS libraries
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10:55<andythenorth>eh, I don’t want to over-engineer, just wondering if there is a case for a library of simple goals
10:55<@Alberth>BB doesn't use them
10:56<@Alberth>I don't know what the GS library does in terms of goals
10:56<@Alberth>maybe it already supports them
10:56<supermop>complete a primary goal and it builds a secondary industry?
10:56<@Alberth>stuff like that, I would say
10:57<andythenorth>the idea I have is not for industries as rewards
10:57<andythenorth>I was thinking that the script might try and watch the number of industries, possibly dividing the map into quadrants
10:58<andythenorth>and build more when it’s getting harder to assign goals
10:58<andythenorth>we already do a portion of that in BB
10:58<supermop>sounds good
10:58<andythenorth>we track the available industry-cargo pairs iirc?
10:58<@Alberth>not really, we have a set of suppliers and a set of accpeting industries
10:58<supermop>i was thinking the industry wouldn't be a reward, but just not crowd the map with dormant tertiary industries before their supply chains are established
10:59<@Alberth>but you could track how good connections can be made
10:59<@Alberth>or what the player prefers
11:00<@Alberth>supermop: those don't really exist in eg firs
11:00<andythenorth>my map is running out of some industry types, BB will struggle to assign goals
11:00<@Alberth>it's trying to tell you to like other industries :p
11:01<@Alberth>but yeah, could be
11:01<@Alberth>I could see that as an extension
11:03<andythenorth>it doesn’t need to be perfect
11:03<andythenorth>hmm
11:03<andythenorth>I often found with flash games that some pseudo-random was as effective as a carefully figured out detailed deterministic algorithm
11:04*andythenorth wonders if BB could just roll a dice every n years for founding an industry
11:04<andythenorth>the only nice detail I think is essential is then assigning a goal to that industry
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11:16<V453000>https://eu1.factorio.com/assets//img/blog/fff-135-flamethrower-turret.jpg :>
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>yay for sites that just display empty pages...
11:19<@Alberth>looking good V! :)
11:19<V453000>:D it's that direct I see
11:19<V453000><3 thanks, was a lot of work
11:20<@Alberth>lots of metal bits, looks used :)
11:20<andythenorth>page not worky :(
11:21<ST2>send the full one: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-135
11:21<ST2>xD
11:21<V453000>yeah
11:21<Alkel_U3>it worky, but it took me like 2 minutes to get just the html, now for the imges and css
11:22<@Alberth>"thrower" is a bit off, perhaps, though :p
11:22<V453000>something might be borken
11:22<andythenorth>V453000: the lighting element is awesome
11:23<Alkel_U3>everyone got so excited about the turret they totally overwhelmed the servers? :-)
11:23<V453000>metal bits are factorio style Alberth :P
11:24<V453000>andythenorth: yeah ... but the biggest hell was to get the thing work in sprites in factorio projection system. :) all done now
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11:25<V453000>Apparently, Alkel_U3 :D
11:25<V453000>idk what is going on
11:25<V453000>but something is
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11:57<supermop>andythenorth: any reason to not carry livestock in this modern silvery box car?
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11:58<supermop>and does milk travel better in the refridgerator car or the tanker?
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12:05<andythenorth>supermop: does the box car refit livestock? :o :)
12:06<supermop>yep!
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12:06<andythenorth>ha ha
12:06<andythenorth>edibles tanker and reefer have same payment curve, pick the one you like the look of
12:07<andythenorth>the mantra of Iron Horse is ‘one obvious choice’
12:07<andythenorth>and when there is more than once choice ‘pick the one you like the look of'
12:07<supermop>all but passengers, clay, coal, ore, sand, scrap
12:07<andythenorth>piece goods
12:07<supermop>for the 160kmh boxcar
12:08<supermop>might put milk in the container carrier or the gondola
12:09<supermop>to carry supplies to clay pit on return trip
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12:11<supermop>boxcar is 160kmh whereas livestock car is 136
12:12<supermop>not planning on running this train with vulcans though
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12:41<supermop>Still cant bring myself to map out japanese cars
12:42<supermop>maybe ill start drawing sprites for the trains
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12:56<andythenorth>supermop: eh, well maybe I’ll poke at the wagons tonight
12:56<supermop>not trying to be lazy
12:56<supermop>just, they dont seem particularly exottic or different from other wagons
12:57<supermop>i guess one could take the 2nd or so gen wagons from pony to use as the "big" wagons
12:57<andythenorth>antelope would be better
12:57<supermop>yeah
12:58<supermop>brb sushi time
12:58<andythenorth>for antelope I’m mostly using South African, because there is info about that available easily
12:58<andythenorth>even though it’s “wrong"
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13:23<@Alberth>nah, it's only wrong if you let it :)
13:40<Samu>Alberth: it says you're a GUI expert
13:40<Samu>openttd credits
13:44<Samu>i have a request, i'd like a summary of all companies in 1 window
13:44<Samu>something similar to console command "companies"
13:45<Samu>but always refreshing, to keep it updated
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13:48<Samu>yesterday I tried to put this info in the Company League Table, but can't even start
13:48<Samu>i also don't know if that's the best place to display that info
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13:53<@Alberth>nice command, didn't know it existed :p
13:54<@Alberth>company league looks as good as any other window, I think
13:55<+glx>always refreshing is the easy part ;)
13:56<+glx>just dirtify the window in the game loop
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14:01<@Alberth>hola
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14:09<frosch123>V453000: stop shooting your coworkers
14:09<andythenorth>so how about ships that don’t have stopped / moving states (no wake sprites)? o_O
14:11<V453000>hehe
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14:23<Wolf01>bye
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14:25<supermop>ended up getting udon instead
14:35<supermop>idk why i wore sambas today feet are way too hot
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14:52<andythenorth>supermop I’ll look at japanese wagons
14:53<supermop>well, whats the first order of business? drawing, research, or making a spreadsheet?
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14:53<supermop>i feel like we can use gut feeling in place of most of the research
14:54<andythenorth>don’t need a spreadsheet, just general style per generation
14:55<andythenorth>style is composed of: 2 axle / 4 axle; long / short; squat / tall
14:55<V453000>._.
14:55<V453000>I just write down gameplay specifics
14:56<andythenorth>why?
14:56<andythenorth>:P
14:56<V453000>"ok" :D
14:56<andythenorth>3 generations, 20 / 30 / 50 units cargo
14:56<andythenorth>what’s to write down?
14:56<andythenorth>:P
14:56<V453000>ok if it's just wagons XD
14:58<andythenorth>you are right, gameplay first
14:58<andythenorth>I just did that bit already a few times
14:58<supermop>4 axle on bogies?
14:58<V453000>did, and how did it turn out LO
14:58<V453000>:P
14:58<supermop>3 axle for NG? i recall they had some of those
14:59<andythenorth>I had to reset Horse wagons maybe twice
14:59<andythenorth>fix speeds, stop pissing about with too many different capacities
14:59<andythenorth>worked
14:59<supermop>load speeds?
14:59<andythenorth>some types have faster load speed
14:59<andythenorth>it’s all automated
15:00<andythenorth>some have cargo payment bonus
15:00<andythenorth>again, automated
15:00<supermop>i dont use the 3rd gen passenger cars as take too long to load
15:00<andythenorth>interesting
15:00<andythenorth>might be a bug
15:00<andythenorth>I thought I fixed that?
15:00<supermop>dont care if the passengers are uncomfortable
15:00*andythenorth looks
15:00<supermop>i think you did
15:01<supermop>but i am spoiled by other sets and want my trains off the platform in 5 days or less
15:01<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/revisions/aa0c5281996b
15:01<andythenorth>meh, loading speed :P
15:02<supermop>maybe these do load faster
15:02<supermop>i only have one passenger train in this little at work game
15:03<supermop>and it has a rake of 2nd gen stock
15:03<supermop>may replace for a rake of slammers
15:05<andythenorth>I think I’ll turn rivers off in my next game
15:05<andythenorth>they’re such a gameplay non-event :)
15:05<andythenorth>absolutely useless :)
15:06<@Alberth>I dropped those a while back already, too annoying :)
15:06<supermop>have a bit of actually work designing to do this afternoon so minimal ottd
15:06<@Alberth>bad for ships however :)
15:06<andythenorth>nah
15:06<andythenorth>you never route a ship up a river, unless you have a flat map
15:06<andythenorth>locks are too hard to build
15:06<@Alberth>true
15:06<andythenorth>3 tiles is stupid
15:07<@Alberth>lots of space required indeed
15:07<andythenorth>and you can’t build them under bridges (I assume map has not enough bits)
15:07<andythenorth>and river corners look ugly
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think nobody actually bothered with bridges over locks
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>should be no shortage of bits
15:08<andythenorth>I start building locks on a river, I have to build so many canal parts to join them, there’s no river left :P
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15:16<Wolf01>o/
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, locks are terribly unwieldy
15:26<andythenorth>state machine? o_O
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't want to bring it up :p
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16:19<Samu>one day i will be back to locks, docks, rivers and all that :o
16:19<Samu>wanted to continue he work i started a year ago
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16:23<Samu_>a
16:23<Samu_>€logs
16:23<Samu_>@logs
16:23<@DorpsGek>Samu_: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
16:23<Samu_>weird errors i get
16:25<Samu_>the ai debug window has a button that is also shared by the ai config window
16:26<Samu_>can i reuse a string from another window into the window i am editing?
16:27-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@po-217-129-255-23.netvisao.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:27<Samu_>I want the AI config window to toggle between STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE and STR_AI_DEBUG_SETTINGS
16:27<Samu_>just the string
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16:30<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UUz1zTZFfU
16:32<Wolf01>seen yesterday, really impressive
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16:37<andythenorth>bed
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17:00<Samu_>what's a template command?
17:02<Samu_>why's that something apparently so simple to edit becomes so hard to do in code :(
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17:37<Samu_>how do i create an empty string that isn't empty
17:37<Samu_>erm... how to explain this
17:39<Samu_>STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE :{BLACK}Select {STRING}
17:39<Samu_>the {STRING} part is replaced with
17:39<Samu_>STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_AI :AI
17:39<Samu_>or STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_GAMESCRIPT :Game Script
17:40<Samu_>and it becomes either Select AI or Select Game Script
17:40<Samu_>I want to create some other similar thing, for the Configure button
17:40<Samu_>but I don't want {BLACK} Configure
17:41<Samu_>I want {STRING}
17:41<Samu_>then it writes in it either Configure or Select
17:41<Samu_>but it is not accepting emtpy strings
17:42<Samu_>STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE : {STRING}
17:42<Samu_>STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_CONFIGURE : {BLACK}Configure
17:43<Samu_>STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_SETTINGS : {BLACK}Settings
17:43<Samu_>it says STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE : {STRING} is an empty string
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18:05<Samu_>looks like i figured it out
18:13<Samu_>bah i didn't
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18:18<Samu_>how do i change the tooltip?
18:19<Samu_> NWidget(WWT_PUSHTXTBTN, COLOUR_YELLOW, WID_AIC_CONFIGURE), SetFill(1, 0), SetMinimalSize(93, 12), SetDataTip(STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE, STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_TOOLTIP),
18:19<Samu_>want to change the last STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_TOOLTIP, to point to the right tooltip
18:20<Samu_>it can be either STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_SETTINGS_TOOLTIP or STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_CONFIGURE_TOOLTIP
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18:53<Samu_>i can't change tooltip :(
18:54<Wolf01>'night
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19:10<Samu_>what am i doing wrong https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pmbdhv4ft
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19:12<Samu_>String 0xB670 is invalid. You are probably using an old version of the .lng file
19:12<Samu_>how do I fix the tooltip?
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 23 00:00:40 2016