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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-26

---Logopened Tue Apr 26 00:00:33 2016
---Daychanged Tue Apr 26 2016
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01:40<V453000>@seen Rubidium
01:40<V453000>!seen Rubidium
01:40<V453000>._.
01:40<V453000>bot lazy?
01:41<@DorpsGek>V453000: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 13 hours, 19 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Rubidium> .cfg instead of .ini?
01:41<V453000>mhm
01:50<V453000>well, different problem today :D it actually wrote an error https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/musa-evil4.png
01:51<V453000>similar to https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/musa-evil2.png but different and at different time
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03:25<Wolf01>o/
03:28<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a1Mnvj8_460s_v1.jpg the math ph.d. one
04:07<@peter1138>text too small
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04:14<Wolf01>you can click on the image to zoom
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04:20<@peter1138>yes but it's been scaled down badly
04:21<Wolf01>:/
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05:56<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm using a 19th century building style that hurts my head but I downloaded some NewGRF's to force it
05:56<Ethereal_Whisper>http://i.imgur.com/66QsBQo.png why did I do this to myself
05:58<Alkel_U3>well, that is suboptimal
05:59<Wolf01>uhm, too many signals in wrong safe waiting areas
06:00<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm copying this scenario's building style I was playing earlier just for the hell of it
06:00<Ethereal_Whisper>I started in 1890 with a super slow old train set
06:01<Ethereal_Whisper>My "goal" is to get everything up and running by 1925
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06:10<Samu>helo
06:12<Samu>[13:38] <Wolf01> you could use flags instead of variables, declare an enum and then use if (GB(SLOT_EDITABLE, flags)) or "flags, SLOT_EDITABLE" (I don't remember it now) or even IF (flags & (SLOT_EDITABLE | SLOT_VALID_AI))
06:12<Samu>i'd like to do this one day
06:15<Samu>i see flags would make things much easier, it's just that I rather have the code work correctly for now, before I venture further
06:17<Samu>need to guide myself from the standpoint that my code works
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08:33<Wolf01>when I'll understand how asynchronous things works it will be a good day
08:34<V453000>shit A doesn't do that shit B does
08:35<V453000>done? :D
08:35<V453000>:P
08:35<Wolf01>no, I didn't mean that
08:36<Wolf01>so far I understood only how to not freeze the app while there is some long work to be done
08:37<Wolf01>but I need something more: get stuff from shit B "while" it's doing it
08:38<Wolf01>I tried with a list, but it seem that only returns values when it has finished to fill it
08:38<Wolf01>maybe it's a wrong type of list
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>what's difficult to understand? do_job(); while(!is_it_done_yet()) do_other_stuff(); check_results();
08:41<Wolf01>nah, I need to check results while !is_it_done_yet()
08:41<@peter1138>do so then
08:41<Wolf01>I'm doing that
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>yield partial_results;
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>(warning: terrible mix of concepts)
08:42<@peter1138>heh
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>just make the is_it_done_yet function return the partial results
08:44<Wolf01>I have a global list variable, I expect that while B is adding stuff I could look in the list to see what's there
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>wait... asynchronous access to global variables? terrible idea.
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>need all kinds of locks and mutexes to handle non-atomic accesses
08:46<Wolf01>I know, but since I'm only reading it... the only one writing is B()
08:46<Wolf01>it's like a news ticker, I don't even know when it will finish
08:47<Wolf01>it might even don't finish at all
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but reading from an inconsistent state while B is writing you must also prevent
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>so B must block reading, so it can write
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>then allow reading when it's finished writing
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>and while A is reading, B must be blocked from starting writing
08:51<@peter1138>well there are lock-free structures that work
08:52<Wolf01>I don't think I can have an inconsistent data in the list, an item there is or there isn't, there can't be half an item
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what kind of item you have
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>items may be written byte-by-byte internally
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>and when the number of items is updated for the list is also important
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>this must all be defined in your thread model
08:55<Wolf01>since I await B's job to be done, an item can't be in an inconsistent state
08:55<Wolf01>the problem is why between B() and B() there is nothing in the list?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally contradicting your previous description
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>(which may be part of your original problem of not understanding it)
08:57<Wolf01>I expect that after the first call I have one item, but instead I get 2 items at the end
08:57<Wolf01>like it's doing it synchronously
08:58<Wolf01>this is simplified, I set up a task running for some seconds and adds an item every half second
08:58<Wolf01>if I try to read the list I should find the items added so far... but no
08:59<Wolf01>I can only get the items when all the task finish
08:59<Wolf01>why does that if I'm calling B asynchronously?
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>could be all sorts of reasons
09:00<Wolf01>and if the tasks are infinite, when I'm supposed to retrieve the data?
09:01<@peter1138>definitely sounds like you're doing it wrong
09:01<Wolf01>in javascript looks so easy, just set up a recursive async call
09:03<Wolf01>yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't figure out what I'm doing wrong
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: my guess is your other job writes to some internal buffer, instead of flushing it to the global variable
09:04<Wolf01>it might be
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09:09<Wolf01>uhm, it works, it seem it only was a timing problem
09:10<Wolf01>waiting 5 seconds while doing 5 1-second tasks...
09:12<Wolf01>clearly doing stuff with the interface and debugging stuff doesn't take the same time
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09:30<supermop>yo
09:33<Wolf01>o/
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09:42<Wolf01>tea time
09:59<supermop>cookie time
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10:06<Birko>Hi everyone. Is it any function to found out if is one railstation reachable from another by builded railways? My AI player can build big railway infrastructure and now I would like to know, what orders I can set to my trains. Thanks
10:07<Wolf01>mmmh cookies, good idea supermop
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause>Birko: generally, the pathfinder does this
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>Birko: not sure if it's accessible from the AI, or if there at least exists a library mimicing it
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10:17<Birko>Eddi|zuHause: Good idea, library is "Pathfinder.Rail.1" and I use it for many things. So it could be works, but im afraid it is impossible to handle with it one-way (semaphore) railways...
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>would be weird if it doesn't handle signals
10:18<@peter1138>a pathfinder should (be written to) cope with that
10:18<@peter1138>you'd just need to make sure that both directions are tested
10:21<supermop>do AIs build networks now?
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10:24<supermop>hmm idea for a GS: eminent domain GS. to entice you to service an underserved city, GS makes subsidy type announcement, then demolishes and buys 2 tile wide corridor of town buildings, then gives the owned land to player
10:24<supermop>maybe builds replacement houses for displaced people
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10:25<supermop>could also then claw back profits from that player in that town over next x years to pay for it?
10:26<supermop>guessing it would be too complex for GS to build station and stump of track in a city then sell that to a player
10:28<Birko>peter1138, Eddi|zuHause : I didnt know that I can handle more than find and build railway from array of tiles to another array of tiles with RailPathfinder. I study it only from this wiki https://wiki.openttd.org/AI:RailPathfinder . Where can I find more info about this RailPathfinder to handle and other things?
10:31<Samu>I found another bug, related with the Parameters window not closing
10:32<Samu>closing the window when selecting another script would fix many of these issues
10:33<@peter1138>Birko, sorry, no idea on specifics
10:34<Samu>an open dropdown list remains open when i select another AI script for the same slot
10:34<Samu>it lists the values of the previous script
10:36<supermop>maybe this would be better as a AI that finds a town with disproportionate population:sevice level ratio, demolishes buildings, build a basic terminus in a city, or a through station based on some criteria, then intentionally bankrupts itself to get sold off?
10:45<Samu>strange, it crashes on the debug, but not on the release
11:02<supermop>watching videos of shinto weddings... think i may have bit off more than i can chew here
11:03<supermop>even my in laws are going to be like "what the hell is going on" let alone my clueless family
11:08<Samu>I don't understand. Why does it crash on the debug build, but not on the release build?
11:08<Samu>I'm doing exactly the same thing
11:10<Samu>weird, now it didn't crash on the debug build as well
11:10<Samu>so it's random?
11:11<Samu>i followed the same steps
11:13<Samu>oh well, in the end it doesn't matter if it crashes randomly or not, it wasn't even supposed to linger the dropdown list from the previous AI into the new AI.
11:22<Samu>aha, release also crashes after all
11:22<Samu>just managed to crash 1.6.0
11:28<Samu>question, should I report this bug? It's similar to the one I reported yesterday https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6453
11:29<Samu>"Configure window didn't close." - this is the main problem
11:31<Samu>instead of a scrollbar crashing openttd, it was a dropdown list from the previous script
11:31<Samu>anyone?
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11:44<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6453#comment14166
11:47<Samu>@logs
11:47<@DorpsGek>Samu: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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11:53<Samu>okay, now this image is also there https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6453/getfile/10497/Chopper%20with%20AdmiralAI.png
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12:02<Wolf01>bbl
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12:32<Samu>why can't I use bools inside a switch/case?
12:32<Samu>i had to put them before the switch
12:32<@Alberth>start a new scope
12:33<@Alberth>case ... : { bool b = ... ; .... ; break; }
12:33<@Alberth>b only exists between { and }
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12:39<Samu>visual studio does not like that: initialization of 'is_orange_slot_above' is skipped by 'case' label openttd D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ai\ai_gui.cpp 884
12:40<@Alberth>yes, you need curly brackets around variables in cases (also with normal labels, but you hardly use them)
12:41<@Alberth>or you must define them above the switch, so they exist for all switches, and beyond the switch statement
12:41<@Alberth>*exist for all cases, I means
12:41<@Alberth>*mean
12:41<Samu>they have to exist for 2 cases only
12:42<Samu>the other cases are arguing
12:42<Samu>let me copy paste
12:42<@Alberth>it's either 1, with curly braces, or all, above the switch
12:43<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbq4jucs7, have to exist for WID_AIC_MOVE_UP and WID_AIC_MOVE_DOWN
12:43<Samu>the other cases don't matter
12:45<Samu>so, all? like I had before
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12:45<Samu>it will look ugly though
12:45<@Alberth>just the declaration is enough
12:46<@Alberth>bool is_orange_slot, is_red_slot, ... ;
12:46<@Alberth>make sure you give them a value before you use the value though, or you get garbage
12:46<@Alberth>perhaps your compiler will compain about not being initialized
12:47<@Alberth>you can either give them the real value then (but ugly, perhaps), or a dummy value, like "true" or "false" or so
12:47<@Alberth>*complain
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12:55<_dp_>I'd rather do a function, smth like is_red_or_orange(slot), vastly simplifies everything
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13:31<Samu>ew... that invisible human player in slot 1 is annoying
13:32<Samu>in the main menu, slot 1 is a human player that I want to disguise as not being there
13:34<Samu>hmm i think i know how
13:34<Samu>brb
13:40<Samu>problem doesn't occur in scenario editor
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13:50<Samu>IsValidID vs IsValidAiID
13:52<Samu>IsValidID says it's true, there really is a company there in slot 1
13:52<Samu>in main menu
13:52<Samu>IsValidAiID says it's false, this fixed my issue
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14:08<@Alberth>hola
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14:09<Wolf01>o/
14:10<@Alberth>o/
14:30<Samu>Alberth: how would you fix that bug I reported?
14:31<Samu>im trying to find a way to fix it
14:32<Samu>AI/GS Debug vs AI/GS Config act differently when switching from a slot to another
14:33<Samu>maybe they should behave equal
14:34<Samu>Debug seems less prone to these issues
14:34<Samu>but it's also a bit more restrictive
14:35<frosch123>moin
14:36<Wolf01>frosch, do you use at least the circuit network on factorio?
14:38<frosch123>sometimes
14:38<frosch123>but i always think i am doing something wrong if i need it
14:39<Wolf01>I was trying to make a hysteresis circuit to enable the inserters only below a threshold
14:39<V453000>frosch123: who could possibly help me with musa? :(
14:39<V453000>also, hi :)
14:40<Wolf01>I did it with 2 comparators and one combinator, too big :/
14:40<frosch123>Wolf01: i think it is because i play f like ottd
14:40<frosch123>when i have too little stuff, i need to build more rails
14:40<frosch123>not add balancing stuff
14:41<Wolf01>that could be an option, a good one, if you have enough steel :P
14:42<Wolf01>actually I have 6 electric furnaces for steel, I'm planning to double them when I'll move the entire advanced production stuff out of the main base
14:42<frosch123>V453000: at least i can confirm that the problem is not on your end
14:42<frosch123>i can also not upload a new version of sv
14:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: can you please restart musad, it's definitely borked
14:42<V453000>that I understand, but who can I poke?
14:42<V453000>:)
14:43<frosch123>V453000: well, there was also the option that it is only borked for your large files
14:43<frosch123>or that only yeti is borked
14:44<V453000>point :)
14:45<Samu>AI/GS Configuration does this: InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_AI_SETTINGS);
14:45<Samu>AI/GS Debug does this: DeleteWindowByClass(WC_AI_SETTINGS);
14:46<Samu>debug window does not bug out
14:46<Samu>so im gonna copy
14:46<V453000>I got this error today https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/musa-evil4.png
14:47<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pwi7oodo8 <- i got that one :p
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14:47<V453000>lol a different one
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14:48<frosch123>no, both just say "timeout"
14:48<frosch123>i guess the cia serves are overloaded
14:48<V453000>but Errno is different?
14:48<frosch123>and cannot respond in time
14:48<V453000>k :)
14:49<Wolf01>frosch, do you think that a base which only processes iron and copper and outputs every kind of item possible for those 2 ores (steel, inserters, green circuits, gears...) is a good solution or it should only produce steel, gears, and circuits, and leave the next tier to another outpost?
14:49<@Alberth>Samu examining it carefully, finding the point where it's wrong, and fix it?
14:50<frosch123>Wolf01: in my previous game i started to include the furnaces into the mining outposts
14:50<frosch123>and ship the refined metal by train, instead of the ore
14:50<frosch123>i may also shift it to steel
14:50<TrueBrain>frosch123: done
14:51<Wolf01>I prefer to have a central smelting hub, mining outpost are like... not infinite
14:51<frosch123>TrueBrain: works :)
14:51<frosch123>V453000: now you can try
14:51<Supercheese>you'd have to tear up your smelters along with the miners when the ore is depleted...
14:51<Supercheese>best to have central smelting to avoid that IMO
14:51<V453000>trying immediately
14:52<V453000>uploading \o/
14:52<V453000>let's hope it finishes
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>but you can put down the smelters at the new mining site, i suppose?
14:52<Wolf01>actually I have a large 40 electric furnaces hub just for iron, and 20 for copper
14:52<V453000>regarding F: I love using steel furnaces on the mining field to make it output the final thing
14:52<V453000>I build shit by blueprints anyway
14:53<Wolf01>I use blueprints too, they are so useful :)
14:53<V453000>you can fit the steel furnaces within the "extra range" of the miners to maintain 100% coverage
14:53<Supercheese>steel smelters? Then you'd have to ship coal to every outpost...
14:54<Wolf01>that's why I use full electric everywhere
14:54<V453000>yeah Supercheese
14:54<V453000>fun :)
14:54<Supercheese>eh, to each their own
14:54<V453000>I ship laser turrets etc anyway
14:54<V453000>rest of the train can be coal
14:55<Samu>my idea of a fix was .... "just close the parameters window", it's kinda like what debug also do
14:55<Wolf01>I don't use anymore coal as fuel
14:56<Samu>my other idea was .... more difficult for me to fix
14:56<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/f_playersupply.png <- Wolf01: usually i have some basic "all you need" production and the rest somewhere abroad
14:56<Wolf01>my car runs on wood (just to use up that large stockpile I made clearing an entire forest) the rest uses solid fuel
14:56<frosch123>oh, btw. i have no idea since when removed asembling plants leave that rubble on the floor :p
14:56<Samu>which was keeping it open and re-supply it with the new variables
14:57<V453000>omg just one facility to produce robots? :P
14:57<frosch123>Wolf01: yes, i used wood for trains, but this time i got a pretty wood-free map
14:57<frosch123>V453000: i hate robots
14:57<frosch123>i only use logistics for player supply
14:57<V453000>construction robots are nice
14:57<V453000>yes me too
14:57<frosch123>and i do not need more construction than i can wire up with belts
14:57<frosch123>it's not like they are one-time use
14:58<V453000>g
14:58<Wolf01>how can you keep that production with just 3 green circuits factories?
14:58<Wolf01>I have 16 of them and 6 for red ones
14:58<V453000>uploaded :D
14:58<frosch123>Wolf01: why "keep"?
14:58<Wolf01>\o/
14:58<V453000>it says I am Sylf but idk where that came from
14:59<V453000>still, it's on bananas
14:59<frosch123>all that stuff there is only for player supply
14:59<frosch123>and construction robots
14:59<frosch123>so, there is not much needed
14:59<frosch123>the green circuits are only leftovers from the redcircuit production
14:59<frosch123>the mass production is somewhere else
15:00<Wolf01>mmh ok then, I have the research labs too, which are green/red/blue circuits hungry
15:00<frosch123>Wolf01: oh, also, all chests you see have their size limited
15:00<frosch123>i do not need 500 miners :p
15:01<V453000>TrueBrain: thanks <3
15:02<Wolf01>also, one thing I really hate, the raw stone patches are too small, I need to move too often to another place
15:03<frosch123>Supercheese: yes, i ship coal to outposts
15:03<frosch123>i always build mixed cargo trains with run on a circular line visiting many stops
15:03<frosch123>some load coal, some unload coal
15:03<V453000>yeah that stuff should be fixed in .13
15:04<frosch123>also, rv almost take no damage anymore when bulldozing rocks
15:04<frosch123>now you only have the small battle between the rock and the constructon robot
15:04<Wolf01>rails, bricks, concrete, they use up a lot of stone and I feel like conquering the far west, laying one rail track like a snail :P
15:05<frosch123>which cannot quite decide when it is done with repairing
15:05<frosch123>Supercheese: and yes, electric smelters are as stupid as logistics robots
15:05<Supercheese>unless you have massive solar, they are less efficient than steel smelters
15:05<Supercheese>that much is true
15:06<Wolf01>half of my map is covered with solar panels
15:06<Supercheese>Well, then you can use electric smelters if you like ;)
15:06<Wolf01>the other half is for batteries :P
15:07<frosch123>Supercheese: last time i checked they were equivalent in power consumption
15:07<Supercheese>frosch123: they are, but if you use steam engines boilers only have 50% efficiency
15:07<frosch123>which i considered sad :)
15:07<Wolf01>I still have the old steam engines power plants for backup purpose
15:07<frosch123>hmm, is that written somewhere? maybe i missed that in my computation
15:08<Supercheese>Coal -> elec -> elec smelter requires 2x as much coal as just Coal -> Steel smelter
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15:08<frosch123>my main production always runs on steam
15:08<frosch123>i only use solar panels in the offposts
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15:08<frosch123>because solar panels are still nicer than long-distance electric wires
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15:09<Wolf01>heh, you must consider the used space, a steam engine uses what, 3x5? and produces 350KW, while a solar panel is 3x3 and produces 60KW
15:09<frosch123>space is not a concern in my games
15:10<frosch123>as said, i play it like ottd :p
15:10<Wolf01>but in ottd you don't have infinite maps :P
15:10<frosch123>anything bigger than 512x512 is infinite
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should add that? :P
15:10<Wolf01>here you just obliterate a spitters colony and lay down a 2400 solar panels farm
15:10<Supercheese>You don't have infinite maps, just zomghueg maps
15:15<Wolf01>V, do you know if it will be possible to make again mods for conveyor belts, like the separators which were really useful in 0.11?
15:15<TrueBrain>V453000: have you tried turning it off and on again
15:15<TrueBrain>it always works, I guess :D
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause>how dp infinite maps in factorio work? does it unload chunks that it thinks are inactive?
15:16<V453000>:)
15:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it probably relies on noone putting a weight on the "a" key and go on vacation
15:17<Supercheese>Factorio has active and inactive chunks
15:17<Supercheese>you can even see them using the debug menu (F4)
15:19<Wolf01>at least is not like Minecraft, one thing I hate about that is the inactive chunks don't grow things (trees, crops)... imagine it on factorio :P
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, that depends on how you determine which chunks should be active
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15:23<Wolf01>another thing I don't understand is how the aliens expand
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>somehow i just got the music from "peter and the wolf" as earworm...
15:24<Wolf01>or better, the natives, since the player is the alien
15:24<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: who of them?
15:24<frosch123>peter or wolf?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>something i haven't listened to in like 20 years
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's peter
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember how the wolf goes
15:25<frosch123>oboe
15:25<frosch123>or something like that
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>you mean fagott?
15:25<frosch123>hmm, no, it's some metal horn
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>oboe is very high pitched
15:25<frosch123>but, it's a slow alarm bell essentially
15:26<Samu>what's the difference between InvalidateData() and InvalidateData(-1)
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>like a clarinet
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>so, after listening to the intro, it seems: bird-flute, duck-oboe, cat-clarinet, grandpa-fagott, wolf-horn, peter-violin
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15:35<frosch123>eddi-tuba
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>somehow i doubt prokofjew knew of my existence :p
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16:03<V453000>hm, so a 32bpp train set having 70 000 wagon sprites isn't a good idea you say?
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16:08<sim-al2>Might kill some older computers V :p
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16:10<V453000>to be precise I am getting 62720
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16:10<V453000>assuming 15kb per sprite, that comes up as 940 800 kb
16:10<V453000>which is roughly 1GB
16:10<V453000>:/
16:10<V453000>I might have a solution to reduce it 8 times
16:11<frosch123>only spherical cars? :p
16:12<V453000>no, something else
16:12<V453000>basically articulating some of the necessary variety
16:18<frosch123>anyway, how much mb do you need in a real game?
16:18<frosch123>like you do not have all cargos in one game, only 32
16:19<frosch123>you may also not have all vehicles in all generations at a time
16:19<frosch123>@calc 128*40*4
16:19<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 20480
16:20<Wolf01>our nephews will ask "but the pc can run ottd?"
16:22<V453000>frosch123: ?
16:22<V453000>there is 67 cargoes I could count from various sets
16:22<frosch123>V453000: ottd only loads sprites into memory which are actually used
16:22<V453000>ofc not available all at the same time, but still?
16:22<V453000>right
16:22<V453000>still you have to download 1GB
16:23<frosch123>isn't the compression better than that?
16:23<V453000>fair point actually
16:24<V453000>hm
16:25<V453000>well it might help a lot
16:25<V453000>oh nvm my test grf has only 2 engines out of many
16:25<V453000>I was wondering that 8MB->312KB is a big difference XD
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16:27<V453000>is there any way to estimate the compression amount?
16:28<frosch123>do one test vehicle?
16:28<V453000>16 sprites are 312KB at the moment
16:28<V453000>each individual PNG has 15KB
16:29<frosch123>as a grf?
16:29<V453000>312=grf
16:29<V453000>15KB = 1 PNG before spritesheeting and stuff
16:30<frosch123>312kb seems to be a lot for 16 vehicle sprites
16:30<frosch123>they are about 20kb uncompressed
16:30<frosch123>so, it would mean basically no compression :p
16:30<V453000>well I guess grf code is something?
16:30<frosch123>problem with grf is that it compressed every sprite on its own
16:30<V453000>right
16:30<frosch123>compressing big things is better than many small things
16:31<V453000>yeah of course
16:32<Samu>time to post a new version, before I forget what I have done thus far
16:32<V453000>I will try to get the articulation to work first
16:32<V453000>let's see how that goes
16:32<V453000>[probably poorly]
16:36<V453000>actually
16:36<V453000>it won't work at all
16:36<V453000>._.
16:36<V453000>need to do some serious reconsiderations
16:36<V453000>even if it saves 50% (which it won't), it's deep shit
16:37<frosch123>how big is the grf, if you zip it?
16:38<V453000>the 312kb one?
16:38<frosch123>yes
16:38<V453000>278
16:38<frosch123>then you sprites have a lot of randomness :p
16:39<V453000>mhm :)
16:39<frosch123>so, if zipping the whole thing does only save 10$, there is no point in improving the grf format or similar
16:39<frosch123>*%
16:39<V453000>I see your point
16:40<V453000>well, I have wagons which have very specific functionality. I want to show that functionality in sprites, which means the x8 as there are 8 types of such functionalities
16:40<frosch123>would you save sprites if ottd could draw multiple sprites per vehicle?
16:40<V453000>my idea is to use articulated vehicles where 1 half is the functionality and 1 half is the actual wagon
16:40<V453000>yes
16:40<V453000>8 times :)
16:40<V453000>maybe even more due to cargoes
16:41<frosch123>if it's not factor 50, it's not worth the effort :p
16:41<V453000>well from 1GB to 120MB is a lot
16:41<frosch123>2 sprites per vehicle? or more?
16:42<V453000>2 would help insanely much
16:42<frosch123>or vehicle + animation + cargo ?
16:42<V453000>more would be just bonus
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16:43<V453000>vehicle partA, vehicle partB, cargo in various loading stages, cargo in various graphics
16:44<V453000>in general it would be AMAZING if wagons could consist of wagon + cargo
16:44<V453000>would motivate so much to define more cargoes
16:44<V453000>and any filesize save for 32bpp is heaven gift
16:45<frosch123>also proper company colours :p
16:45<frosch123>but cc are bad anyway
16:45<frosch123>oh, and better rainbow slugs
16:45<V453000>well yeah that would be an extra beautiful thing, but layered sprites would be just a whole new dimension
16:47<V453000>is such a thing as vehicle layers within realm of possibility?
16:47<V453000>I guess it worked for industries and stations eh :P
16:47<frosch123>hardest is the drag-cursor :p
16:47<frosch123>i.e. the one which does not even support articulated vehicles
16:47<V453000>ha
16:48<V453000>I see
16:48<frosch123>currently you can only attach a single sprite to the mouse cursor
16:48<V453000>can we define drag sprites?
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16:48<V453000>we can define depot sprites
16:48<V453000>I guess that works
16:48<frosch123>nah, it should just draw the vehicle list sprite in aritculated
16:49<V453000>list sprite = purchase menu sprite you mean? no
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16:49<frosch123>no, i mean like the vehicle is displayed in the depot and or in vehicle lists
16:49<frosch123>i.e. multiple sprites
16:50<V453000>yes, so if you have a switch vehicle_is_in_depot, you can define drag-sprites basically?
16:51<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Sprites_in_GUI <- do you mean that? or something else
16:51<frosch123>i do not want to hack around the mouse cursor thing
16:51<frosch123>it should be done properly anyway
16:51<V453000>switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_monolocal_depotted, vehicle_is_in_depot){ 1 : switch_monolocal_stopped; //TL0.5 doesnt exist 0 : switch_monolocal_enginesprite; }
16:51<V453000>I am not saying hack
16:52<V453000>I am saying that it is solvable if someone defines a newgrf
16:52<V453000>and wants to fix the dragging
16:52<V453000>admittedly automatically dragging merged sprite would obviously be best :P but yeah
16:56<V453000>I will have to go now, but let me just say tha this feature would be the most amazing thing I ever seen :P
16:57<frosch123>it's likely easier than the mapgen preview
16:57<frosch123>which is the other most-needed thing
16:57<V453000>:0
16:58<frosch123>but i need to ponder some days about the nfo magic
16:58<V453000>:)
16:59<V453000>I would greatly appreciate such a thing to happen
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: just check extra_callback_info1, not vehicle_is_in_depot
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>0x0? for anything drawn on the map, 0x1? for anything drawn in the gui, and 0x2? for anything drawn as preview (no vehicle vars available)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>(i use this quite a lot with all the curve magic, which should only be done on the map)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>(so special magic for depot dragging was quite easy to add)
17:06<frosch123>really? is that variable older than cets?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i wrote that
17:06<frosch123>sometimes i forget how ancient some thing are :)=
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's only been like 5(?) years :p
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>nothing happened in the last 2 years anyway :p
17:08<V453000>gnight
17:08<V453000>layers! <3
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17:15<_dp_>hm, just got a weird idea
17:16<_dp_>make a server with real world map and only allow people to build in same region they are from (by ip)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so i have a "19. Jul 2011 vehicle_gui_extra_callback_info.diff" but r23080 doesn't seem to be based on that patch
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 23080
17:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by frosch :: r23080 /trunk/src (25 files in 2 dirs) (2011-11-01 17:51:47 +0100 )
17:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Feature: [NewGRF] Use variable 10 to enable vehicle GRFs to draw different sprites on the map and in various GUIs.
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>you also didn't credit me for the idea :p
17:19<frosch123>_dp_: well, most people live where lots of people are living
17:19<frosch123>tracks better fit in places where noone is living
17:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i don't believe in "ideas" :)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>like 90% of the worlds population live on the coast or near rivers
17:20<frosch123>except for the roujin foundations
17:22<_dp_>frosch123, well, regions can be quite big, more like continents or so.
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: there is no such thing as a "continent" in openttd
17:23<frosch123>_dp_: maybe try "timezones" then :p
17:23<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, doesn't mean it can't be defined ;)
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>so, if it's not a rectangle, you're having a hard time
17:24<_dp_>pff, hardest thing is to actually prevent someone from building somewhere
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>also, how do you decide where a person is "living"?
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>geoip? how about proxies?
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>and how about multiple people in the same company?
17:25<supermop>V453000: what madness is this you are planning
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>preventing building is trivial, so long as you're able to patch the executable
17:25<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, well, idea is to get people from different regions in one company))
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: since when is anything V453000 is planning NOT madness?
17:26<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, you're taking this too serious though :p
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: there's also GS magic to undo things a player did in the wrong place
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>may be less pretty
17:27<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, seen that magic, quite easy to fool :p
17:27<supermop>composited sprites sounds particularly interesting madness
17:28<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, filtering incoming commands on server is still the most viable way
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: piping all incoming commands through the GS for validation is too problematic? or too inefficent?
17:31<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, why bother with gs for that?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>more flexibility?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>that could be included in the main game, instead of being some server-specific hack
17:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: competitive servers will always find something that does not fit the main game
17:33<_dp_>filtering is a hack no matter how you do it :p
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>i think i missed some context for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA some incompetent(?) politician(?) made some stupid(?) statement(?) about the eu referendum(?)
17:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: did gb ever accept the european court?
17:37<frosch123>i only remember them complaining that brittish cannot be wrong
17:37<frosch123>you now, like us soldiers are incapable of comitting war crimes
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are multiple european courts. and generally the US have a problem with outside jurisdiction
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i believe i've heard of some british court cases going to european level, like the assange thing, and various stuff about the snwoden reveals about GCHQ
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17:54<Samu>new version posted http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74694&p=1167722#p1167722
17:55<Samu>main topic needs some editing yet
17:56<supermop>frosch123: any US soldier with a strong case against them who found himself abroad could well be arrested and tried, but seems the types who find them selves on the wrong side of international law are the types to stay out of countries that might do anything about it
17:57<_dp_>first thing that needs flexibility is network command system imo
17:57<_dp_>no point having "flexible" gs when it can't do shit
17:58<supermop>the few people I knew from High school who fought in Iraq or Afghanistan, that was the only time they had ever visited a country that wasn't on very friendly terms with the US (such as GB)
17:59<frosch123>haha, yesterday the news here was full of "us no longer wants to be bff with gb, if they leave eu" :)
18:00<supermop>not that I am suggesting those particular guys committed any war crimes, just that most soldiers who would find themselves in ambiguous combat situations are not the type who book vacations to North Korea for fun
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: what kind of command system are you thinking of?
18:10<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, system itself is fine (command.cpp I mean), just needs more flexibility
18:11<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, right now command set is such that it basically supports only bare minimum of what is required by gameplay and nothing else
18:12<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, so even slightly changing to gameplay is virtually impossible
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: that stil leaves me with absolutely no clue what kind of change you're thinking about
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18:15<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, hah, well, from usage standpoint it's basically allowing gs to do more stuff))
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: but the command system is designed for the user doing stuff
18:15<_dp_>for example clearing land (as deity), placing objects/buildings etc...
18:16<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, yy, that's why server can't do anything
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: well, if you have a specific thing in mind, open a request. doesn't need a change to the "system" at all.
18:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: read the existing requests :p
18:17<_dp_>system itself is fine, it just lacks functionality
18:17<_dp_>also does it make sense to make patches just for commands, without gs interface?
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think a command will be accepted if there is no way to invoke it
18:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it all comes down to ottd running the gamestate on every client
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18:18<frosch123>clients do not believe the server anything, but check what it sends them
18:18<frosch123>so you cannot add new stuff in the server without preparing the clients for it
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so add a flag to server commands "this is a server command, execute it also if the client did not send it"?
18:19<frosch123>like: you cannot allow a company to execute a command without sufficient funds
18:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you can answer every simple example with a simple answer
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
18:20<frosch123>also you are assuming anyone except dp is interested in competive gaming
18:21<_dp_>frosch123, well, there is also btpro and n-ice ;)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>dunno... the luukland stuff was fairly popular, i suppse
18:21<frosch123>see, that's why i encourage forking ottd :)
18:22<frosch123>you cannot fit all thoe completely different things into one game
18:22<_dp_>forking is kind of splitting community
18:22<frosch123>_dp_: and all three are neglible compared to the chinese, right?' :p
18:23<_dp_>chinese are weird xD
18:23<_dp_>actually, if you look on average stats they aren't that noticable
18:24<supermop> do all new players to the game use zbase?
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely
18:24<_dp_>like yeah, they play 150 at once but only once a week for 3 hours
18:25<supermop>seems like whenever a new person appears in the fora asking about signalling etc, they have zbase
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>you're having a sample bias there...
18:26<supermop>and when they ask for grf suggestions, they then complain that the 8bpp grfs they have downloaded look bizarre to them
18:26<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: of course
18:26<supermop>but i wonder if we are biased is hanging around the fora and this channel for 8+ years, we have no idea what the experience of someone just starting to play this game this year would be?
18:31<supermop>and every time i play online, (which is maybe twice a year) i never find many servers using significant newgrf rosters - maybe a old wagons new cargoes at most
18:32<supermop>are typical players unaware or even ambivalent towards new grfs, so server hosts set games accordingly?
18:34<_dp_>well, I never add grfs to servers that target new players
18:34<supermop>do these players just want different 32bpp base sets? do they just want simple 32bpp new grfs? how many people out there play the game at least casually but are never active on the forum?
18:36<frosch123>how many people who download the game start it even once? :p
18:37<_dp_>how many people can solve a riddle to connect to muliplayer? :p
18:38<frosch123>night
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18:38<supermop>what always bothered me was how much of a hassle it was for say my brother and i to just play a casual pick up game against each other if it turned out we both had a few free hours
18:39<supermop>we never really figured out how to host a server,
18:39<supermop>and depending on where he or I might be, we might not even be able to
18:42<_dp_>hosting a server is pretty much same for every game so I won't blame openttd for that
18:42<supermop>also the few people i converse with at any frequency about this game do not seem to be regularly playing multiplayer games as far as I can tell, so when ever I do play
18:42<supermop>its on some ramdon empty server
18:42<supermop>brb
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19:09<Samu>http://imgur.com/lGvvQOK
19:10<Samu>:)
19:17<Samu>I'm kind of happy for today
19:18<Samu>managed to verify nearly every step of my bools to make sure they were working as they're intended to
19:19<Samu>tomorrow I'll think about flags or bitmasks or whatever
19:20<Samu>the table is ready http://imgur.com/lGvvQOK
19:20<Samu>i don't think i'm missing anything now
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