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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-04-28

---Logopened Thu Apr 28 00:00:48 2016
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02:06<andythenorth>o/
02:08<@Alberth>moin
02:09<@Alberth>so, more industry newgrfs :)
02:09<@Alberth>no wonder it didn't make sense
02:18<andythenorth>I’m wondering if there is some way to whackamole them
02:19<andythenorth>maybe bananas could detect all industry newgrfs?
02:24<@Alberth>what about counting number of industries that I mentioned before? Is that feasible?
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02:25<@Alberth>if all industry grfs would assume they're the only one active, you could code it in openttd, but ECS already breaks that
02:26<@Alberth>also, it seems a bad idea to block the path of 2 grfs working together
02:27<andythenorth>agreed
02:27<andythenorth>I think it’s a social problem :|
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02:28<@Alberth>I don't understand what exactly breaks it
02:28<@Alberth>it would be so nice if you could just have it added
02:29<@Alberth>modulo max number of cargos and max number of industries
02:31<andythenorth>I assume that the oil rig grf re-adds the oil rig as a new industry, or redefines the FIRS version
02:31<andythenorth>I haven’t decompiled it :)
02:32<andythenorth>fundamentally, the problem is shared address space :P
02:32<andythenorth>so how would the industry counting work? o_O
02:34<@Alberth>Not sure, but I would hope you can get the total number of defined industries. If it deviates from what you expect, disable yourself
02:35<@Alberth>or you can iterate through the industry ids, to see if something weird exists, but that sounds a lot more complicated in newgrf
02:37<andythenorth>the checks at grf loading time are quite limited :)
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02:43<@Alberth>what's this conflict problem about exactly, what breaks if I make a new powerplant industry, and a new food processing plant industry in another newgrf, and load both?
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02:44<@Alberth>or if I would make a 3rd powerplant industry newgrf, and load that too?
02:46<@Alberth>why are the interesting industries to connect to, always hidden behind a hill :p
02:48<andythenorth>devil is in the details
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02:48*andythenorth looks in spec
02:50<andythenorth>I’m not sure how isolated industry IDs are now
02:50<andythenorth>it’s non-obvious
02:50<andythenorth>of the several ways things break, cargos are the most obvious
02:50<andythenorth>the oil rig grf _probably_ just relies on oil being in slot 3
02:51<andythenorth>and FIRS puts bauxite cargo in slot 3
02:51<@Alberth>cargos seem fixable to me by adding an extra translation table
02:51<andythenorth>not whilst newgrf authors continue to partially redefine default industries
02:51<@Alberth>or better drop the slots crap, and use a 32bit identifier
02:52<andythenorth>currently you can redefine the oil rig without your action 0 touching cargos
02:52<andythenorth>there is hard to suppress legacy stuff
02:52<@Alberth>yeah
02:53<@Alberth>I was thinking to make the default set available to each industry newgrf separately
02:53<@Alberth>so firs gets a copy, oilrig gets a copy
02:53<andythenorth>some kind of adapter?
02:53<andythenorth>dunno how that interacts with vehicles and so on
02:53<andythenorth>probably works
02:53<@Alberth>then you hack industries like you want, and oilrig hacks it they want, and then you merge
02:54<@Alberth>vehicles only care about cargo, right?
02:57<V453000>heyo
02:57<andythenorth>lo V453000
02:58<andythenorth>how many nappies changed?
02:58<V453000>many
02:58<V453000>literal shitstorm tonight
02:59<V453000>also started a process of making yeti beautiful
02:59<V453000>results tonight
03:00<V453000>how iz you?
03:00<V453000>cat found, more retarded FIRS cargoes invented?
03:04<andythenorth>cat lost
03:04<andythenorth>FIRS paused
03:05<andythenorth>which of many colours is poo?
03:05<andythenorth>green, yellow, black?
03:08<V453000>why not both?
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07:06<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:24-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
07:24<Wolf01>o/
07:31<@Alberth>moin
07:32<Wolf01>I needed a video tutorial to understand how to turn on the torchlight of my powerbank... there's only one button
07:33<Wolf01>at least I figured out alone how to turn it off again
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08:08<@peter1138>multiple presses
08:09<@peter1138>these things bug me as there is no physical power switch
08:10<@peter1138>and they are able to get into a funny state where effectively they've crashed...
08:10<Wolf01>oh, really?
08:10<@peter1138>yeah they're not quite a straight forward as a plug, socket and a set of batteries.
08:11<@peter1138>friend of mine had to rip his apart to reset it
08:12<Wolf01>this one uses AI-power to decide if the connected devices need fast charge or not, it might go full retard one day
08:17<Wolf01>and now more important questions: I have a remote outpost which serves as a raw stone processing hub (stone->bricks->walls), I can't decide if it should process also the walls to gates, concrete, furnaces, and the stone to rails (all these need some more resources I would bring there by train)
08:21<argoneus>sorry again V453000
08:21<argoneus>:<
08:22<V453000> /me gives no shit
08:24<Wolf01>?
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08:45<Wolf01>V453000, maybe I'm stupid, but in the forum somebody said that you can copy the train wagons with the reserved slots, I can't make it work, do you know how to do it?
08:45<V453000>yeah just shift right click, shift left click
08:45<V453000>same as recipe/smartserter orders copying
08:45<Wolf01>:o
08:46<Wolf01>I was doing it wrong for my entire life XD
08:46<Wolf01>over 9000 clicks saved \o/
08:46<V453000>XD
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08:47<V453000>you can also do it with train station names and train orders btw
08:47<V453000>train orders dont get shared but yeah
08:47<Wolf01>this is a really nice hidden feature
08:48<@Alberth>best features are always hidden :)
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09:22<supermop>yo
09:23<@Alberth>hi hi
09:28<supermop>came into work 30 minutes early for a skype call with a manufacturer and consultant in Taiwan,
09:28<supermop>but my boss arrived 30 minutes late to the call, and the manufacturer never called in at all
09:29<supermop>times like this i think would be good to be an hourly paid consultant
09:29<@Alberth>you can go home 30 minutes earlier too, right?
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09:34<supermop>haha
09:35<supermop>of course not
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of stupid workplace do you have?
09:35<supermop>last night i was here 2 hours late to prepare for the meeting
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09:35<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: a design firm
09:35<supermop>or, an american workplace
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>in civilized countries you have "Gleitzeit" [sliding time], so you have to show up for 8 hours per day, but can slide it earlier or later as needed
09:36<supermop>we have that too
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>and of course paid overtime
09:36<supermop>but if there is more than 8 hours of work to be done you are there for more
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>or balanced overtime
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>(overtime one day is deducted from another day)
09:37<supermop>no architecture firm pays overtime here, especially to salaried employees
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>silly country
09:37<supermop>technically i can work my 40 hours a week any time anywhere in the week
09:38<supermop>but if i am constantly working 48 or 60 hours thts on me
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>also, 35-hour-weeks
09:39<supermop>in architecture firms there is still a culture of you are sacrificing for your art, so if you arent spending lots of your free time working you must not be very serious about it
09:40<supermop>and bosses of architecture firms are happy to perpetuate that culture
09:40<supermop>though it is better now than 5 years ago as there is a slight shortage of talent now
09:40<supermop>as people leave to work in better paying industries
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>that may be useful for "get your foot in the door" kind of work, but you should balance that after a while
09:41<supermop>for example starting junior architecture salaries are now 150% of what they were before the recession
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09:44<supermop>also one's boss may say, " i didnt tell you to stay until 8:30, r to come in on sunday"
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>weird country...
09:51<supermop>Eddi|zuHause not very familiar with the last 30 years of american history and the erosion of american worker's protections I assume
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: still a big difference between having a vague prejudice about how bad it is vs. actually hearing an example
09:57<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i have it very very good compared to many americans, and especially those in other fields
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>let's not start talking about paid vacation, then :p
09:59<supermop>although it is illegal, until very recently, it was ubiquitous in design industries for 'interns' to receive no payment, even if their internship was not part of some training or university course
10:00<supermop>often the interns were people qualified to work as juniors, who find the only jobs open to them are unpaid internships
10:01<supermop>i am also lucky in that i actually like the work i am doing at this firm, and find my self planning out more work in my head while at home or in bed
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, we had such problems as well over here, but then we introduced stricter rules for internships
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10:01<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: the worst part is these rules existed for some 50+ years here,
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>... but then as well we passed a minimum wage law that excludes internships
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10:03<supermop>but employers kept encroaching on them until a few big lawsuits a few years ago removed any grey area and clarified that this activity is illegal and can be punished
10:04<supermop>for years the same forces that pressed young people to work for free if they are passionate about the work, kept them from suing their employers
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10:52<Leanden>Hello
10:54<@Alberth>o/
10:57<Leanden>This is going to sound a little ridiculous
10:57<Leanden>but how do i upload my NML to the dev repository?
11:00<Leanden>Is it tortoisehg i need?
11:01<Wolf01>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=63119 ?
11:02<@Alberth>hg push, mostly, or some "push" button on tortoisehg (tortoisehg is a graphical frontend for hg (=mercurial)
11:03<@Alberth>did you already clone the repository, and added all sources?
11:03<@Alberth>Wolf01: not musa, that's upload to bananas
11:04*Wolf01 <- John Snow
11:06<@Alberth>snow wolf?
11:07<Leanden>Im going to say no
11:07<Leanden>i have the dev page set up
11:07<Leanden>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/brtrains/repository
11:07<Leanden>and i have a folder on my desktop
11:07<Leanden>i want the folder on my desktop in the repository :D
11:08<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Welcome ?
11:09<Leanden>lol you wouldnt believe how long i was looking for that page :D
11:09<@Alberth>ok
11:10<@Alberth>basically, you must pull the currently empty repository from devzone first
11:10<@Alberth>that makes a copy of the repository at your system
11:10<@Alberth>then you "add" the source files
11:10<Leanden>thanks :)
11:10<@Alberth>and "commit"
11:10<Leanden>brb
11:11<@Alberth>the latter makes a new revision, a new state of all files in the repository
11:11<@Alberth>all this is done locally
11:12<@Alberth>you can make changes, or add files or remove files, and then commit again
11:12<@Alberth>each time making a new revision
11:12<@Alberth>when done locally, you "push" your version back to the devzone
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12:58<andythenorth>iz cat
12:59<V453000>iz not
13:00<andythenorth>iz standard
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27551 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2016-04-28 19:45:35 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian: 3 changes by odisseus
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13:56<andythenorth>should I engage with this? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1167791#p1167791
13:56<andythenorth>like, positively “and stuff"
14:02-!-SpComb^ is now known as SpComb
14:06<@Alberth>wouldn't it be more fun to surprise the world? :)
14:07<andythenorth>probably
14:08<andythenorth>just wondering :)
14:08<@Alberth>Locomotion challenges are a bit different: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1166440#p1166440 a whole chain of cargoes to make automobiles
14:08<andythenorth>forums have started to turn into some kind of product support channel, instead of a fun place to have ideas
14:08<andythenorth>:)
14:08*andythenorth looks at lomo
14:08<@Alberth>most active people have disappeared
14:10<@Alberth>grown up, doing real-life stuff, I guess
14:10<andythenorth>is that an oxymoron of ‘active’? :D
14:10<@Alberth>:D
14:10<@Alberth>in openttd terms, it is :p
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14:13*andythenorth ponders ‘encouraging’ people
14:13<@Alberth>I had a small success today: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5rbdhylh
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14:14<andythenorth>o_O
14:14<andythenorth>separation of concerns?
14:14<@Alberth>scenario description of terkhen
14:14<@Alberth>save seems to be doing something :p
14:15*andythenorth has idea
14:15<andythenorth>unrelated, need to look in src a bit
14:15<@Alberth>lots of bits there :)
14:16<@peter1138>hello
14:16<andythenorth>lo peter1138
14:16<@peter1138>i have a patch for that
14:16<andythenorth>looking in src?
14:17<@Rubidium>Alberth: looks like a small map ;)
14:17*andythenorth looking if 2 tile locks are possible
14:17<andythenorth>or 1 tile
14:17<andythenorth>3 tile sucks
14:18<@peter1138>the point of 3 tile locks is that 1 is too steep
14:18<@peter1138>but it's a lock
14:18<@peter1138>so that makes little sense
14:18<@peter1138>i had a patch for locks...
14:18<@Alberth>Rubidium: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pob229fko 256x256, and very flat :)
14:18<andythenorth>afaict, the slope is only on the central tile
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14:19<andythenorth>I am watching game, rather than reading movement code mind you
14:19<andythenorth>locks suck full stop
14:19<@Alberth>hmm, no .png sections in it :p
14:19<andythenorth>canals should just be buildable down slopes, with autolock
14:20<andythenorth>locks are yak shaving
14:20<andythenorth>not like bridges or tunnels where placement is significant
14:20<Alkel_U3>IIRC it was like that in TTDPatch
14:21<andythenorth>autolock? o_O
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14:22<@Alberth>just make lock graphics on a slope? :)
14:22<andythenorth>srsly :P
14:22*andythenorth brute force hacking
14:23<@Alberth>should be possible
14:26<Alkel_U3>um, maybe I misunderstood what you meant. TTDP just allowed you to place the canal lock and canal with the same button
14:26<andythenorth>so no need to change tool?
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14:27<Alkel_U3>there is only the canal tool, no separate lock tool
14:27<@Alberth>hola
14:29<andythenorth>single tile locks work
14:29<andythenorth>movement code is fine
14:29<andythenorth>drawing is fine
14:30<Wolf01>bbl
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14:30<andythenorth>I’d need to fix sprites
14:31<andythenorth>“patch for that” ? o_O
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14:39<andythenorth>TTDP locks stopped the ships and animated them up in z plane?
14:39<Supercheese>seems so
14:39<Wolf01>iirc yes
14:39<Supercheese>which is neat
14:40<Alkel_U3>yep. When I first saw how they just glided up a lock I was amused
14:40<andythenorth>so that’s why they’re 3 tiles
14:41<andythenorth>ottd does not need that
14:42<Wolf01>no, it doesn't, but it would be nice to have
14:45<andythenorth>nah, single tile locks > stop-go locks ;)
14:57<frosch123>Making the ship reverse while inside a lock was funny in TTDP :)
14:58<@peter1138>the patch i have makes them stop and go up/down
14:58<@peter1138>it's quite nice
14:58<@peter1138>well other than behing just the ship that does it
14:59<@peter1138>but to invoke the R word would make boats suck even more
15:00<Wolf01>boats don't suck :(
15:02-!-frosch123 is now known as Eddi||zuHause
15:02<Eddi||zuHause>locks should be done using state machines
15:02-!-Eddi||zuHause is now known as frosch123
15:04<Samu>some animated ad displays corrupted lines on tt-forums.net
15:06<Samu>im using microsoft edge browser
15:24<andythenorth>ha ha
15:24<andythenorth>frosch123: I nearly fell for that :)
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15:25<frosch123>poor eddi :)
15:26*andythenorth might end up using some weird self-patched OpenTTD :P
15:26<andythenorth>can I make a fork, and have it on the compile farm? o_O
15:26<andythenorth>eh, but then I have to do support :P
15:27<V453000>quite cat I have to admit
15:29<V453000> /me went on an insane frenzy yesterday
15:29<V453000>must finish tonight
15:29<V453000>moar spritez
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15:31<andythenorth>Wolf01: do you buy Technic sets only if the price-per-part is good?
15:31<andythenorth>o_O
15:32<Wolf01>no, I buy everything above 50€
15:32<V453000>oh god lego nerds
15:33<supermop>beer hotel meeting was brutal
15:33<Wolf01>it happened I purchased some 15€ sets just for parts
15:33<andythenorth>I am trying to understand these PPP nerds :)
15:33<Wolf01>or got them as presents
15:33<andythenorth>I don’t get their thinking
15:33<supermop>surprisingly hard to cram the square parts of a luxury suite into the round hole of a grain silo
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15:34<Wolf01>technic sets already have the best PPP on the entire lego collection
15:34<Wolf01>some cost more because PF
15:35<andythenorth>I can’t follow their logic :)
15:35<Wolf01>but if you need PF just purchase the volvo front loader and you have plenty of parts too
15:35<andythenorth>it *seems* really logical to do PPP, but, eh, what?
15:35<andythenorth>PPP says I should buy set xyz, but it’s pale blue, and I hate pale blue
15:35<andythenorth>or something
15:36<Wolf01>I don't follow the PPP logic too, I purchase them because I like them or because I need x parts
15:36<andythenorth>they seem to only buy the parts, without looking at what the parts are
15:36<andythenorth>or whether they like the model
15:36<andythenorth>weird
15:36<andythenorth>supermop: I stayed in a converted windmill once, definitely the bedrooms were compromised
15:36<@Alberth>you can sell them at a higher price?
15:36<andythenorth>bathrooms workable, but large beds tend to be rectangular
15:37<@Alberth>leave 1m space from the wall :)
15:37<@Alberth>also convenient for changing the sheets
15:37<@Alberth>and vacuuming
15:41<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe they just want a complete collection of all lego parts
15:41<frosch123>like a card trading game
15:41<supermop>frosch123: that was my dream when i was 9-10
15:41<andythenorth>maybe :D
15:41<frosch123>they probably have some fancy album with each piece labeled
15:42<supermop>that and to dig a tunnel to neighbor's basement to run lego trains between our two houses
15:42<@Alberth>so PPP holds for the parts they don't have :p
15:42<frosch123>supermop: oh, i once wanted to build a trap door into the floor
15:42<frosch123>severly damaged the floor :p
15:42<V453000>XD
15:47<Wolf01>I need a large collection of some parts, like pins and connectors, 10k each is a fair number
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15:49<Wolf01>even gears, racks and some other related stuff is well accepted :P
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15:51<supermop>so, British trains again?
15:56<@Alberth>more like another attempt is being done?
16:03*andythenorth hopes it succeeds :)
16:06<supermop>all i demand is yellow fronts
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16:31<@Alberth>nn
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> can I make a fork, and have it on the compile farm? o_O <-- the answer to that should be "yes"
17:47<NGC3982>Mmmm. Forks.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>(yes, i know what a rhethorical question looks like)
17:50<andythenorth>it’s probably not a wise idea :)
17:50<andythenorth>I should just maintain my own local patched build
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't followed the patchpack-"scene" recently
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>used to be that every month or two a new patchpack rose
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>most of them disappearing rather quickly
17:58<andythenorth>like mosquitoes
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18:03<V453000>andythenorth:
18:03<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Previews
18:04<V453000>just photoshop improvements :)
18:06<Wolf01>wow
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18:07<Wolf01>I really like the animal farm
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18:12<V453000>:)
18:12<andythenorth>V453000: what’s new in those? o_O
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18:13<andythenorth>they all look quite badass, but what’s changed?
18:14<V453000>sec making comparison page already
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18:14<andythenorth>the mines are substantially awesome, I need to draw a bunch of FIRS mines, I should make them even less realisms
18:15<Wolf01>:D
18:15<Wolf01>just go full toyland
18:16<andythenorth>ugh
18:16<andythenorth>I was just sick in my mouth
18:16<andythenorth>there is not realisms, and then there is Bad Ideas
18:19*andythenorth must to bed
18:19<andythenorth>sharpish
18:19<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Compare-v1
18:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: how many Porsches will you buy then?
18:20<Wolf01>one, maybe, maybe not
18:20<andythenorth>V453000: you have added much weathering? o_O
18:20<andythenorth>and some contrast?
18:21<V453000>been painting on it for 2 days
18:21<V453000>yeah basically everything is more fucked up
18:21<V453000>somewhere some road stuff etc
18:21<andythenorth>you are like a model train fan now :)
18:22<andythenorth>http://www.railfanreading.com/Layout/Prototype/BNSF518/BNSF518.htm
18:22<Wolf01>why did you remov slugs?
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18:23<V453000>didnt?
18:24<Wolf01>animal farm?
18:24<andythenorth>V453000: lighting more pleasing, you learnt more skills from BRIX? Or just more time?
18:24<V453000>lighting is generally unchanged, I literally only touched photoshop
18:24<andythenorth>what did you do, dump an S shape into curves? o_O
18:24<V453000>utilizing photoshop for 3D postproduction is what I do for factorio a lot
18:24<V453000>S shape?
18:25<V453000>I see what you mean Wolf01 , but they never made it into official release :D
18:25<Wolf01>oh, ok
18:26<andythenorth>V453000: boost highlights, lower shadows, clamp the mid-range
18:26<andythenorth>is how I would have done it :P
18:26<V453000>yeah, but that never gives a super nice result
18:26<V453000>I paint manually
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18:26<V453000>basically, have the render, duplicate it, set mode to multiply, put a mask to it, paint the mask
18:26<andythenorth>have you literally painted all that?
18:26<V453000>same for additive
18:26<V453000>yes
18:27<V453000>my hand is dying of wacom
18:27<V453000>honestly, I have been using the tablet for like 8 months now and I can't imagine working without it anymore
18:27*andythenorth had wacom
18:27<andythenorth>doesn’t any longer
18:27<andythenorth>you get claw hand
18:27<V453000>yeah
18:27<andythenorth>just wait until you get car seat wrist :P
18:28<andythenorth>then you’ll be crippled
18:28<V453000>luckily I don't paint all day long usually
18:28<V453000>just in short bursts
18:28<andythenorth>every parent I know has experienced this thing where they strain the tendons in one wrist by lifting car seat into car (or out)
18:28<V453000>anyway, me gots go
18:28<andythenorth>bb
18:28<andythenorth>nn
18:28<andythenorth>etc
18:28<V453000>oh :) hm
18:28<Wolf01>nn
18:28<V453000>gn
18:28*andythenorth also
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19:05<Wolf01>'night
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19:39<Samu>when entering a custom number of towns, i can't input a value higher than 5000, but when generating with a high number of towns on a 4096x4096, it says it's generating +12k towns :o
19:39<Samu>bug?
19:43<_dp_>says 5000 for me
19:44<_dp_>and generates 5k indeed
19:44<_dp_>minimap is a mess though)
19:45<Samu>original land generator should lock snow height to 7
19:45<Samu>terragenesis sets it to 15
19:45<Samu>but that's good for terragenesis only
19:48<Samu>ugh, height levels break some original land generator stuff
19:48<Samu>minimap is too green even for mountains
19:48<Samu>where are the brighter greens
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 29 00:00:49 2016