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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-03

---Logopened Tue May 03 00:00:55 2016
00:16-!-Netsplit <-> quits: innocenat, dustinm`, Flygon, Xaroth, Compu, ST2, berndj, +tokai|noir, Mazur, funnel, (+25 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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01:01<Flygon>:D I wish I could increase the loan cap
01:01<Flygon>I AM profitable
01:01<Flygon>IRL, I would be able to convice a bank to give more money for expasion :D
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01:59<Alkel_U3>Makes me miss the good old RRT 2 economy
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02:38<Alkel_U3>in railroad tycoon your company has a financial rating and you can issue bonds as long as the rating is at least B (but which hurts the rating), or issue more stock (which makes your stock a little more worthless).
02:39<Flygon>Yeah, that'd be a nice feature :D
02:39<Alkel_U3>the series also separates player's money from the company's
02:40*Flygon nod
02:40<Flygon>(btw, this 4k*4k Hokkaido scenario is really good)
02:54<@peter1138>4k*4k is never good
02:55<V453000>this battle is unwinnable peter1138
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03:57<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i found the "economy" always the worst part of RRT
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05:06<Leanden>andythenorth: planetmaker: are either of you on?
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05:31<Leanden>anyone can help me with make?
05:31<Leanden>make[1]: Nothing to be done for `BRTrains.grf'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/readme.txt'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/license.txt'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/changelog.txt'.
05:32<Leanden>when i try to compile my GRF
05:34<V453000>there is nothing to be done about that Leanden
05:35<Leanden>so how do i get my GRF to compile then :D
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05:37<Leanden>Help me obi V453000 kenobi, you're my only hope
05:38<V453000>your only hope has no clue
05:38<V453000>[u r fuked]
05:38<V453000>idk, I got many errors but not this
05:38<V453000>oh make
05:38<V453000>it's not just nmlc
05:39<V453000>I'm sure andy or pm will help you there, just be patient :) andy will come proceed the search for cat sooner or later
05:39<V453000>did you try to check how makefiles on the devzone work?
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05:42<Leanden>im using makefiles from the devzone
05:42<Leanden>thats the annoying thing
05:42<Leanden>I took one from SBB set and change the IDs to my set
05:43<Leanden>put all my code etc. in the same file layout as that set and it still doesnt work :P
05:51<V453000>yeah there is likely some wtf magic
05:51<V453000>I personally never used makefile, someone did it for me, and locally I compile only with nmlc single-NML-file grfs
05:51<V453000>NUTS has 60k lines of code in1 file, but eh :D
05:52<Leanden>well if i could remember the gcc command to compile an nml file from pnml then i would do that :P
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05:57<Samu>i dont understand my router
05:57<Leanden>ahh found it
05:57<Leanden>gcc -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header -o BTtrains.nml BTtrains.pnml
05:58<Samu>im trying to configure port forwarding since yesterday night without success
06:00<Samu>localhost: I put
06:00<Samu>protocol: I am uncertain here, it asks many stuff
06:02<Samu>protocol: I picked TCP, then asks unique or interval
06:02<Samu>origin, and destination
06:02<Samu>how do i set up here?
06:02<Leanden>what is the port forwarding for?
06:02<Leanden>what is the purpose of it?
06:03<Samu>I think its 3979
06:03<Samu>host a openttd sserver, from 3979 to 3987
06:03<Samu>1 server on each port
06:04<Samu>then i do the same for UDP
06:04<Samu>and after that, there's one more thing to configure
06:05<Samu>forward to port
06:05<Samu>same as origin port
06:05<Samu>or user defined
06:07<Samu>this is just for the router
06:07<Samu>then there's windows firewall which is another headache
06:07<@peter1138>windows firewall is easy
06:08<Samu>i don't think so, it's quite dumb sometimes
06:13<Samu>DMZ Host
06:13<Samu>still says "we are not receiving acknowledge from master server"
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06:20<Samu_>nope, still fails
06:20<Samu_>i bet it's windows firewall now
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06:24<Samu_>there it is
06:24<Samu_>it was windows firewall being stuborn
06:24<Samu_>but now i got this on DMZ host, i dont want DMZ host, brb
06:27<Samu_>crap, i hate this
06:27<Samu_>no longer working without dmz host
06:29<Samu_>i hate these new routers with their super extra secure features that require a networking degree just to port forward
06:29<Samu_>old routers were so much easier
06:32<Samu_>this is not an internet cafe, omg windows firewall really sucks
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06:48<Samu>i cannot advertise to master server
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06:49<Samu>Source Ports: Destination Ports:
06:50<Samu>what are source ports?
06:50<Samu>isn't it just 3979, why ask source or dest
07:06<Xaroth|Work>It means you can open up one port, but point it to another internally
07:06<Xaroth|Work>and really, it has been available on routers since the olden days
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07:23<Samu>1) Local Host:, 2) Protocol: TCP: source ports: any range, destination ports: any range, 3) Forward to Port: Same as incoming port.
07:24<Samu>if i change any range to 3979, it won't work
07:27<Samu>TCP and UDP both set with any range
07:28<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
07:28<Samu>oh, 3978
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>i somehow don't think any of these answered the question
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>not that i think the answer would have helped anyway :p
07:45<V453000>I don't know why nobody banned Samu yet
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07:48<Eddi|zuHause>i like to distinguish people between "unknowing" (they don't know something, and if you tell them, they know) and stupid (they don't know something, and if you tell them, they still don't know)
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i've only met very few stupid people, but the ones that stick around are really really annoying
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>because they drain community ressources without the chance of a long term benefit
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07:56<Wolf01>I feel offended :(
07:57<V453000>I actually managed to ban a couple of these people on our server Eddi|zuHause
07:57<V453000>just for the sake of staying sane
08:01<Ketsuban>I recall having a similar conversation with someone about how there are newbies (those who do not yet know the norms of a community, and will learn) and noobs (those who have no interest in ever learning community norms and will just irritate people forever).
08:02<Wolf01>those are trolls, not noobs
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, those words are not right
08:05<V453000>sense is similar
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>"noob" is too often used as a derogatory term by arrogant people for the above definition to apply
08:07<Ketsuban>The distinction between "noob" and "troll" was one of intention.
08:07<Ketsuban>Trolls set out to annoy people; noobs just do because they're oblivious.
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>a person who uses the word "noob" is likely to be one himself
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>(well, technically that applies to "stupid" as well)
08:11<V453000>I think that statement applies purely based on how do you define that word Eddi, if you imagine it is said by a person who is arrogant and calling others lesser, OR if you see it as objective definition of a hopeless troll-ish person who will never learn because they don't want to
08:12<Wolf01>it's the same as what happened to "hacker", the word doesn't have a bad meaning but people started to use it to define the guys who do bad actions with IT stuff
08:13<Wolf01>mainly because journalists didn't know (and still don't) the right terms
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>they performed a study on people who use "bad language" in LoL games, and compared their performance within the team, and usually the weakest person in the team used the "bad language"
08:14<V453000>well yeah that's a fair point
08:14<V453000>I'm not saying arrogant people calling stuff aren't that
08:14<V453000>but if we are trying to objectively define what the word means, it shouldn't make us them :P
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but i still question whether the term "noob" ever objectively meant the above thing
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>(before it slipped in the other usage)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's a bit like people nowadays justifying racial slurs by citing "but it originally meant <objective definition>"
08:17<Wolf01>noob, as n00b, started when the l33t-speakers were too lazy to write newbie
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>even if that definition once was true, it isn't anymore, and thus the usage is invalidated
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that was probably around the same time that 1337 degraded into a kiddie-language
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>(which again reinforces the point that "noob" is only used by people who are themselves "noob" [by above "original" definition])
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08:20<V453000>OMG CAT
08:20<V453000>and andy missed it
08:21<V453000>no it rejoined
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08:22<Eddi|zuHause>we've had a conductorcat for quite a while now
08:24<V453000>guess andy just didn't find out yet
08:25<Wolf01>meh... I can't understand how to handle exceptions in async code :|
08:26<Wolf01>specially with parallel threads
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>you generally need to handle them in the thread that raised them
08:27<Wolf01>I know, but or the entire thread exits, or the thread become synchronous
08:28<Wolf01>I need to skip the threads which threw exception
08:28<Wolf01>keeping the whole thing asynchronous
08:28<Wolf01>or the UI will hang
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know enough about your architecture to help you here
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08:33<Wolf01> I'm doing something like this, but instead of having a synchronous "Main()", I have an asynchronous event attached to the UI, and the "wait" breaks the asynchronous workflow
08:38<argoneus>good morning train friends
08:42<Samu>finally I managed to configure it! ->
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, "wait()" will obviously pause the thread that called it
08:49<Samu>sorry for bothering you all, this router is much more complex than what I had before
08:49<Wolf01>yes, I should "await continuation;"
08:50<Wolf01>and since my "continuation" provides a result, I have "var result = await continuation;"
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure about the semantics of that
08:51<Wolf01>but now, it seem to be broken
08:51<Wolf01>do you know the promises?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>you rather need a "if (continuation.finished) { do stuff with result } else { do nothing and try again later }"
08:53<Wolf01>that's why they used synchronous code, "await" already does that without the need of doing the check
08:54<Wolf01>it puts everything which follows the "await..." into a callback (at compiler time) and only runs it when the task has finished
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>but "await" will still pause the thread it appears in
08:57<Wolf01>no, it exits and continues the execution
08:57<Wolf01>then when the task finishes, it executes the rest of the code
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>ah, it exits to the calling function
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't sound like you can return a result
08:59<Wolf01>it returns a task
08:59<Wolf01>which has your result if it's completed
08:59<Wolf01>in this case, since I "await" it, it's completed
08:59<Wolf01>and I can use the result in the promise
09:00<Wolf01>if you try to do that in a synchronous code, you will hang up everything :P
09:00<Wolf01>maybe forever, not just for the execution of the task (which might not complete succesfully)
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>then i still don't know enough about what you're doing
09:02<Wolf01>me too, I'm just studying it :P
09:02<Wolf01>but I've done some asynchronous programming in javascript
09:11<Samu>the complexitude of this router: 1 cable, 2 ethernets, 2 wireless access points, 2 bridges (WAN and LAN), 1 ethernet switch
09:14<Samu>my isp forces 2 ethernets with this router and with just 1 cable,
09:15<Samu>so it behaves as a free wifi spot
09:15<Samu>okay i got it
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09:25<Wolf01>looks like I made it, the exception handling inside the task factory delegate
09:35<@peter1138>on error resume next
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09:37<Wolf01>that was vb6 :D
09:37<Wolf01>spaghetti code exception handling
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>"goto" :p
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09:43<Wolf01>the very basic one it was like "on error goto label" ... code... "end function... label: msgbox("error, you stupid"): resume next"
09:46<Wolf01>Ok, I learned something new, now it's factorio time
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10:40<Wolf01>mmmh, I built a train, set all the orders and stuff... built it on the wrong rail, I had to build a wye to turn it :|
10:43<frosch123>that's unrealistic, post a "crane truck" suggestion on the forums
10:57<Samu>#opcodes before scripts are suspended= 250.000
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11:04<Wolf01>V453000, the train pathfinding doesn't like loops
11:07<V453000>doesn't it?
11:08<Wolf01>I don't know
11:08<Wolf01>if I drive the train manually the track is right, even the signals
11:10<Samu>dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer - what is this?
11:10<Wolf01>the nice thing is that it says "no path" even just outside the station
11:10<Wolf01>other trains don't have any problem
11:11<@peter1138>it means the string was too long for the destination buffer
11:11<Wolf01>but this is the only one single-headed
11:12<Wolf01>meh... found the culprit, an old signal hidden by a tree in the next tile of the other signal... I can't wait for the 0.13
11:13<Wolf01>instead of having 2-way I had 2-one way :|
11:14<Samu> - i'm being bombared with that message
11:14<Samu>not sure what it is
11:17<@Alberth>debug messages
11:18<@Alberth>don't compile with debug flags if you don't want them
11:19<Samu>it's 1.6.0, i didn't compile it, i downloaded from
11:22<Samu>debuglevel misc=0, still says it
11:31<_dp_>oh, mb I know what it is, in multiplayer lobby server_name + "(ipv6)" gives it sometimes
11:34<Samu>the string is: fffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff
11:35<Samu>ehm... is this an ipv6 address?
11:36<Wolf01>looks like a gust of wind
11:38<Samu>trying to follow back where it originates
11:39<Samu>it's from OWNER_DEITY
11:39<Samu>trying to do a command
11:40<Samu>strecpy(c.text, (text != NULL) ? text : "", lastof(c.text));
11:41<Samu>this is what triggers that message
11:41<Samu>c.text = 1:83:84:15:1:0:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:fffffffffffffff
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11:42<Samu>so, well, no idea what this means, but that's where it originates
11:43<Samu>it's dealing wit tile 0
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11:50<Samu>cmd = 88 which is CMD_UPDATE_STORY_PAGE_ELEMENT
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12:41<Samu>why do ppl create servers that are impossible to join in 30 seconds...
12:45<Samu>i joined my server and it made the server crash
12:47<Samu>no crash log
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12:56<Samu>event viewer says faulty module ntdll.dll
12:56<Samu>process openttd.exe
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13:14<Samu>i managed to reproduce the crash with visual studio open
13:14<Samu>Unhandled exception at 0x00007FFA8D2E0B06 (ntdll.dll) in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x00000080CAC1FFF8.
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13:15<Samu>it says ntdll.exe is external code, can't view stack frame things
13:15<Samu>oops ntdll.dll
13:19<Samu>ntdll.pdb - Source Not Available
13:19<Samu>what now? :(
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13:23<@Alberth>it looks like the nt file system thingie, which of course has no source code
13:24<andythenorth>the xkcd for ‘yak shaving’ isn’t quite what I’m looking for :P
13:24<andythenorth>I wanted a cartoon for “starting a new game of ottd"
13:31<Samu>> ntdll.dll!RtlpLowFragHeapFree() Unknown
13:31<Samu>this is where it crashes
13:31<frosch123>when a truck crashes into your house, your house is not the problem
13:32<frosch123>rather look where the truck came from
13:33<+glx>ntdll is a windows library
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13:35<Samu>if (!HeapFree(select_heap(block), 0, block))
13:35<Samu>this is whhere it would return
13:35<+glx>you can't do anything about it
13:35<Samu>didn't return, just crashed on the ntdll.dll
13:36<Samu>free_base.cpp, line 100
13:37<andythenorth>is this rhymme known?
13:43<Alkel_U3>I recall seeing something similar in czech
13:44*andythenorth swallows a horse
13:45<andythenorth>to start my openttd game, I need to (1) patch FIRS (done), (2) patch CHIPS, (3) patch OpenTTD :P
13:45<frosch123>there is an incredible boring but somehow popular book about a snake swallowing an elephant
13:46<frosch123>andythenorth: that is all fine as long as you do not have to patch patch
13:46<andythenorth>sometimes it also involves rebuilding all the deps in my OS :P
13:46<andythenorth>although that is less common
13:54<andythenorth>this just so I can play a test game on Iron Horse Antelope, which will result in more work
13:55<andythenorth>amused irony probably fails to come across well in irc
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13:56<frosch123>try on forums instead? :p
13:57<andythenorth>ha ha
13:57<andythenorth>unrelated, can we declare OpenTTD 2.0, and break a load of backwards compatibility?
13:58<andythenorth>there’s no good reason, but it might be fun
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14:00<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
14:00<frosch123>wait 4 years for it
14:01<Wolf01>"kitten hungry is the free app for today"
14:01<frosch123>i like the easy method to derive the release date from the version
14:01<andythenorth>we could give releases subtitles
14:01<andythenorth>“breaks everything edition”
14:02<andythenorth>“spurious new features edition"
14:02<andythenorth>“all climates are now toyland edition”
14:02<Wolf01>was @?
14:05<Samu>glx: how do i create a dump when msvc breaks on some error?
14:06<Samu>or, how do i upload this crash
14:06<Samu>because openttd doesn't create the crash files
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14:19*andythenorth looks for Tropic landscape patch
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14:37<Wolf01>meh, biters nest in starting area :|
14:44<andythenorth>is biters a newgrf? o_O
14:46<Alkel_U3>biters in NUTS as a new engine class? :-)
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14:47<+glx>Samu: this crash is not in openttd
14:48*andythenorth transports nuts
14:48<andythenorth>because Busy Bee said so
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15:13<Samu>openttd is trying to delete something from memory but then ntdll crashes with access violation and points to RtlpLowFragHeapFree()
15:13<Samu>being the function that errors
15:14<Samu>it seems to be some AI that causes the error
15:15<Samu>some AI is working with massive numbers of arrays
15:16<Samu>dont know what's that, but it's repeatedly creating, deleting, creating, deleteing
15:16<Samu>one of them triggered a crash
15:16<Samu>triggered on delete
15:17<Samu>i have no idea which AI is doing this, I loaded 15 AIs + GS
15:18<Samu>they append stuff to network commands?
15:19<Samu>bah i better give up
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15:26<Samu>it crashed again, now the error was triggered from somewhere else
15:30<Samu>i was joining the server with a client
15:30<Samu>openttd was executing a loop
15:30<Samu>void WriteLoop(byte *p, size_t len, lzma_action action)
15:31<Samu>lzma code sent something about freeing memory to ntdll.dll and ntdll.dll crashed
15:31<Samu>symptoms are a bit similar, access violation
15:31<Samu>writing memory
15:35<Samu>> ntdll.dll!RtlpHeapTrkInterceptor() Unknown
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15:45<Samu>isn't lzma code open? why can't i access it? :\
15:48<Wolf01>aren't you serious, you are?
15:49<Samu>didn't let me explore inside lzma
15:49<Wolf01>there is a little difference between source code and compiled library
15:53<Samu>openttd writeloop > lzma optimized encode fast > ntdll rtlheaptrkinterceptor -> crashes here
15:55<Samu>memory management issues, i guess
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---Logclosed Wed May 04 00:00:56 2016