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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-10

---Logopened Tue May 10 10:27:42 2016
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10:29<supermop>if i reworked to z scale or n could put motors in etc, but i am really going for something whimsical here not a model
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10:40<supermop>yo Alberth
10:40<@Alberth>hi hi
10:42<supermop>hows it going?
10:46<@Alberth>just home, all day hacking C code :)
10:46<@Alberth>gets a bit boring after a few weeks :p
10:49<supermop>i wouldn't know
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11:31<@Alberth>that's probably a good thing :)
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12:38<frosch123>SpComb: where is spbot? :)
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13:01<Samu>new approach to simplify the GUI ->
13:01<Samu>does it seem easier now?
13:02<Samu>supermop_: a
13:02<supermop>still dont get the !
13:02<supermop>why is a human company bad?
13:02<Samu>i know, i dont have a substitute
13:03<Samu>imagine that image is a human face or something similar
13:03<Samu>and that the newspaper is your dice
13:03<supermop>oh god i read that e as a k
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13:04<supermop>anyway, i don't fully understand what info you want to convey so it is hard to precisely say what should be changed
13:04<supermop>rg what does your patch attempt to accomplish and why
13:04<Samu>i used smillies this time
13:05<Samu>smillies to describe if the AIs are alive, dead or yet to start
13:05<supermop>ok, what is the use case for this
13:05<Samu>yellow smile is an AI yet to start, given the max no competitor value
13:06<SpComb>20:01 -!- Irssi: Reconnecting to [] port 6697 - use /RMRECONNS to abort
13:06<SpComb>20:01 -!- Irssi: warning Could not verify SSL servers certificate: unable to get local issuer certificate
13:06<supermop>i e who is this information most useful to, and how will they act on it
13:06<supermop>brb lunch
13:06<Samu>it's useful for whoever wants to configure AI or GS scripts
13:06<supermop>i just don't use AIs enough to know wht the normal info usage is
13:07<Samu>the numbers 1 to 15 are the company ID numbers where that script will start a company
13:08<Samu>the trouble here is that AI's can only start on companies which are not occupied by a human
13:08<Samu>and i think it's important to know where would the "yet to start" AIs would pop
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13:09<Samu>a company can be started by either a Human player or an AI
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13:10<Samu>you configure a script to start on that company id number, but if a human starts first before the AI, the config of that company won't start.
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13:11<andythenorth>fuck me a YT review
13:11<Samu>but a human company can also die, autoclean or such, then that slot becomes available again for the next AI that is yet to start
13:12<Samu>hi Alberth
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13:12<@Alberth>ha, andy :)
13:13<@Alberth>too bad sound is dead at my machine currently
13:13<andythenorth>that’s a milestone
13:13<Samu>nice andythenorth
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13:14<@Alberth>firs frontpage news :)
13:14<andythenorth>I don’t have patience for videos :P
13:14<andythenorth>I need it on 2x speed
13:19<frosch123>it raises the issue that someone needs to pronounce FIRS somehow :)
13:21<Flygon_>I just assumed it was pronounced like how furries call themselves furs
13:21-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
13:21<Flygon>Of course, the difference being that FIRS has no creepy-ass fursuit factories
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13:23<andythenorth>it’s furs, definitely :)
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13:29<Samu>think i'm ready to post a patch
13:29<Samu>it's been a while
13:29<Samu>hard to explain how everything interacts
13:30<Samu>becomes easy if you can actually interact with it
13:30<Samu>at least I hope so
13:32<Samu>omg i can't believe what i've done t.t
13:32<Samu>big mistake, lost everything I worked on
13:34<andythenorth>samu :P
13:34<Samu>oh no damn... damn what can I do now to revert?
13:34<andythenorth>you have version control?
13:34<Samu>i went to svn and reverted all changes
13:35<Samu>is it possible to undo the revert?
13:35<andythenorth>since your last commit?
13:35<andythenorth>some version control leaves .orig files around when reverting
13:35<andythenorth>depends on the vcs and the configuration
13:35<Samu>it's tortoise SVN
13:35<andythenorth>sorry no idea
13:36<andythenorth>if you have the files around in your editor, sometimes you can also use undo or history in the editor
13:36<V453000>nice, I like how he calls newgrfs mods XD
13:36<Samu>nope, i was stupid enough to close it
13:36<Samu>i re-opened after doing the revert on svn
13:36<andythenorth>.orig files on the filesystem?
13:36<Samu>RIP my work
13:39<Samu>i'm sad, almost like crying
13:39<SpComb>so, tell me how to insert some lines from a file into the beginning of this logfile, where another process is currently appending to that logfile
13:39<Samu>what was on my head to make such mistake
13:40<Samu>i was gonna create a patch, and for some reason I first reverted the trunk folder
13:40<Samu>with no patch created, everything is gone :(
13:40<SpComb>`hg revert` creates .orig files, dunno about svn
13:45<Samu>ah, think i recovered it
13:45<Samu>it sent the files to recycle bin
13:46<Samu>went to recycle bin and restored them all
13:46<Samu>let's hope this is enough
13:46<Samu>yes! everything is here
13:46<Samu>oh gosh, what a relief, ufff
13:47<SpComb>yeah, seems TortoiseSVN does that
13:49<andythenorth>small, frequent atomic commits ;)
13:49<Samu>thx for the help
13:49<andythenorth>or an aggressive filesystem backup system
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13:49<Samu>i don't usually care what's in the recycle bin, but this time
13:50<Samu>saved my work lol
14:07<@Alberth>the problem with guis, it'sdoesn't make very clear what buttons are deadly, and what buttons are safe
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15:03<supermop>andythenorth: paused video at 19 sec after hearing open T T D and F I R S spoken out
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15:04<supermop>why use z base in a video to show off FIRS....?
15:06<andythenorth>I’m just happy to have a video :D
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15:10<supermop>the industries that reuse baseset sprites do not do well under this
15:12<_dp_>what's wrong with open T T D?
15:13<supermop>_dp_: i dont think in 10 years i've actually ever heard someone speak the name out loud - so sounds quite strange
15:16<supermop>"get back in the depot train!"
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15:34<andythenorth>supermop: no they do not :)
15:35<supermop>the magnanese mine would make a nice coal mine
15:35<supermop>unless you want an open pit
15:35<Supercheese>that's a great video
15:35<Supercheese>really makes me want to try the new economy
15:35<supermop>Supercheese: in a hot country is great
15:36*Supercheese begins to update grfs
15:37<supermop>haven't spent enough time with the other economies yet but the new steel mill is pretty
15:37<supermop>basically everything that isn't a base set industry looks great
15:38<supermop>andythenorth: no outbuildings on cobble chips tiles
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15:46<NGC3982>I'm getting connection failed from my supybot when i'm trying to apconnect to my local game. The host is (same machine), the admin port is forwarded and correctly set on both router, openttd and config file.
15:46<NGC3982>Where else can i look?
15:46<andythenorth>supermop: eh? you mean in chips? ;)
15:46*andythenorth confused
15:46<NGC3982>It has been a while since.
15:47<supermop>i dont know that they need any
15:49<andythenorth>they are mostly on paving slabs
15:50<andythenorth>I just choose to overlook any incronguity :)
15:50<andythenorth>CHIPS doesn’t aim for complete coverage ;)
15:51<supermop>but the other types have various tipples or warehouses or sheds, thought the cobble ones looked a bit lonely
15:52<andythenorth>could take the stone warehouse from textile mill
15:53<andythenorth>or the shed from glass works, but that’s quite used already in industries
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15:56<supermop>shed from trading post, or long kiln from brickworks minus chimney too
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16:06<Samu>new version out
16:07<Samu>original topic description is outdated
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16:41<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: does you magic make trains tilt? does anyone else have similar magic?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have not implemented tilting trains
16:42<supermop>tilting turbotrains would be a nice bit of polish for ogfx+
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>although it should be fairly straight forward to add
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think some GRFs had tilting graphics
16:42<supermop>also, i wonder if i can lobby andy to add tilt to iron horse for one train
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, ask George :p
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>tilting needs considerably less magic than i do
16:45<supermop>monorails should tilt
16:46<supermop>given the conceptual space they occupy in my roster
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>also note the tilt flag for trains which gives a boost to curve speed
16:47<supermop>not that monorails do tilt, but that ceonceivably a monorail could be built with steeply banked rails if needed
16:51<supermop>polishing up ogfx+ trains could be fun
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16:53<supermop>seems to be fairly well used, clearly defined concept, and well suited to piecemeal bits of work
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i think monorails already do get a speed boost in curves compared to conventional
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16:54<supermop>ah well my work is done then!
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17:09<supermop>doesn't seem to make sense to supply FIRS temperate clay pits with supplies
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>why? sure they also need excavation equipment and fuel?
17:10<supermop>one pit on it's own will generally produce enough clay to get a bulk terminal to gung-ho even if the terminal has nothing else supplied
17:11<supermop>so unless i plan on building 4 terminals for each pit on the map
17:11<supermop>that extra clay is just going to clog up my network
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17:24<SpComb>irclogs fixed
17:24<SpComb>including the missing parts
17:24<SpComb>just had to wait until midnight for the logfile to rollover and fix the 2016-05-10 one :P
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: thanks :)
17:25<supermop>now to decide which industries the glass works and the metal workshop will supply, or, if i will just dump all mnsp at a central yard and let cargodist sort it out
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>reports from a way too small set of people show that cargodist does a poor job at this
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>you need a cargodist mode for one-source-to-many-destinations which supplies each destination equally
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>which involves basically two things: 1) a finer creation of destinations other than one-per-cargo-package, and 2) a flat demand function independent of distance and stuff
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17:29<supermop>otherwise going to have milk in cans, but fish and meat in bottles
17:31<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: typically i avoid the "distribution yard" method for that, and rely on the fact that industries will split their production across two stations if both are similarly served
17:31<supermop>and one station then serves "near" destinations, and one serves "far" destination
17:32<supermop>as long and the spokes of those distribution networks have about equal frequency and capacity it seems to work ok
17:33<supermop>and if the producer of supplies if making roughly 150%+ the total 'need' for supplies i rarely have one industry not get boosted
17:34<supermop>but i'll often have industries that hover right around the border between double and quadruple production for years until the system gets flooded with large surplus of supplies
17:35<supermop>i wonder though - i haven't tested this much, to what extend the default 16 day cycles in cargodist are really affecting me
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17:36<supermop>small networks with trucks running every 10-20 days seem to do fine
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever touched that setting
17:37<supermop>but mines that see a train every 45 days seem like they would still easily get enough supplies every 90 days,
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's rather meant for if you have performance trouble
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't make the distribution any better or worse, it might just be slower to react to changes
17:37<supermop>but sometimes they dont, and i wonder if it is due to cd sending less cargo along those high bandwidth but high latency routes
17:38<supermop>must be all in my head then
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17:40<FLHerne>I've been using the "mix it up, let CDist sort it out" method with supplies for a while
17:40<Samu>i hate slot 1 in main menu ...
17:41<supermop>like, i worry that cd will forget a supply route that runs only 1-4 times per year
17:41<Samu>that invisible human player always ruining something :o
17:41<FLHerne>Definitely discourages the standard tactic of dumping everything on one industry of each type, because then the distance function causes trouble
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: cargodist should not "forget" lines
17:42<FLHerne>supermop: Isn't that too low anyway, unless you have higher-frequency feeders later?
17:43<supermop>i want to serve remote areas by dumping a train or shipload at some transfer station or outpost every few months, and then have trucks or NG trains etc feed it over to the industry
17:45<Samu>how do I get rid of that invisible human company in the main menu? I'd like to avoid writing code to deal with it :(
17:48<Samu>just launch openttd, open console, type companies
17:48<Samu>there it is, the annoying invisible human comp
17:54<supermop>for manufacturing supplies though sometimes i will have a yard where trains deliver both materials and supplies, and then a composite train takes both cargoes to the industry, ensuring the supplies are always delivered at same time as material
17:54<supermop>makes for nice looking trains with a mix of cars too
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18:10<Samu>hmm, there's some serious bug related to random ais
18:10<Samu>can't get my head around this
18:11<Samu>they don't have a configuration in a game
18:12<Samu>they do in main menu
18:13<Samu>in main menu, slot 1 is configured with random ai, parameters are set to have a start delay of 1 day.
18:14<Samu>i start a game, i start in slot 1. I move to spectator and kill slot 1.
18:15<Samu>now i'm waiting for the next ai to start, which should be in slot 1, and should also be 1 day
18:15<Samu>well, it didn't start yet
18:15<Samu>i'm still waiting
18:16<Samu>it finally started, i don't know how long I had to wait, but definitely it wasn't 1 day
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23:44<Flygon>To capture the entirety of Japan at the same resoluton as that Hokkaido map
23:44<Flygon>You'd need a 16k*16k scenario map
23:44*Flygon laughing a little hard here...
23:45<Flygon>That'd need a hell of a daylength patch, and something to remove vehicle limits :'D
23:46<ST2>"hack" wagons capacities... hack it all xD
23:46<Eddi|zuHause>and probably more RAM...
23:46<ST2>and a new CPU cooler too :)
23:48<Flygon>Eddi: I might have the RAM. I don't think we'll ever get the single threaded CPU capacity :DDD
23:48<Flygon>ST2: Nah, not capacities
23:48<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the map alone is over 2GB, and then you haven't had a single cargopacket yet
23:48<Sylf>16k? that's all?
23:48<ST2>Sylf making a "big chest" :D
23:48<Flygon>Just somehow increase the vehicle table size from 65k (16-bit) to 32-bit (like, 16.7m)... somehow :D
23:49<Flygon>Sylf: For the same scale as the Hokkaido map, yeah
23:49<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the vehicle table is 1M for like 5 years now
23:49<Flygon>Wait, really?
23:49<Sylf>I'm thinking a bit longer and narrower
23:49<Flygon>So you can have more than 65k RVs in a single game?
23:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, the per-company-limit is still 5000
23:50<Flygon>Sylf: If you got the spare dimensions, may's well include China and Korea :D
23:50<Flygon>Eddi: Ahh, so it just never got increased?...
23:50<Flygon>As in, the capacity is there?... sorry, I'm a bit lost O_o
23:50<Flygon>This is rather a surprise for me
23:51<ST2>in our last tournament we made limit to 5K RV's per company... some companies reached 3K - server started struggling
23:51<ST2>it's a bad idea :P
23:51<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the 5000 limit was never meant to be increased, just that multiplayer with long trains kept hitting the 65k limit, and thus it was increased
23:52<Flygon>Ooooooooh, a wagon counts as a vehicle?
23:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, each wagon individually
23:52<Eddi|zuHause>plane=2, helicopter=3
23:52<Eddi|zuHause>plus ufos, smoke puffs, whatever
23:52<Flygon>ST2: Hahaha, yeah, I don't think even a 4k*4k map alone will ever work as a multiplayer map unless everyone's on a gigabit LAN :DDD
23:52<Flygon>Eddi: Shit, I didn't think of that
23:52<Flygon>OpenTTD shares more with Ragnarok Online than it thinks :DDDD
23:53<Sylf>I still think 4k maps are meaningless but... meh.
23:53<Flygon>(the randomest of shit is a "Monster"... someone shoots an arrow? The server generates a monster for, like, 0.1 seconds so the arrow sprite can show and update it's position on the screen)
23:53<Flygon>(I mean, sure, it works, but it feels so... unclean)
23:54<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: that just means the "monster" class is mis-named
23:55<Flygon>Hahaha :D
23:55<Flygon>Well, actually
23:55<Flygon>It's named "mob"
23:55<Flygon>Which's a bit of a lolwut in itself @_@
23:55<Eddi|zuHause>"mob" sounds like it should be multiple objects...
23:55<Sylf>Killed couple yeti bugs. good enough for the night.
23:56<Flygon>I forgot if it was because Korean devs, or if it was some 80s/90s tabletop term
23:56<Flygon>For 12 years
23:56<Flygon>Twelve freaking years
23:56<Flygon>And you've come up with the best explanation I've heard to date
23:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, in german, a "mob" is usually a bunch of people ganging up, pitchforks and all...
23:58<Eddi|zuHause>usage in the english language might differ.
23:58<Flygon>Well, actually
23:58<Flygon>The same applies to English xD
23:58<Flygon>"Angry Mob" ect :DD
23:59<Flygon>Hence why the term was so confusing to me :D
23:59<Flygon>Combined with the fact that a lot of the game's internal terms has some confusing Korean>English Engrish...
23:59<Flygon>Or even worse
23:59<Flygon>Misc. Nordic>Korean>Japanese>English
---Logclosed Wed May 11 00:00:08 2016