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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-12

---Logopened Thu May 12 00:00:10 2016
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01:52<Flygon>I wonder if I'm lazy when I'm running Tram Tracks parallel to an expres pax line because I'm lazy
01:53<Flygon>Um wait... derp
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03:29<argoneus>good morning train friends
03:29<argoneus>(did I get the time right this time?)
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05:18<Wolf01>somebody purchased games from kinguin/g2play and got a problem with the keys?
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05:54<argoneus>Wolf01: all keys worked for me so far
05:54<argoneus>from kinguin that is
05:55<Wolf01>I purchased the bundle of fallout 4 + season pass, but the season pass key was duplicated and after I opened a ticket they removed all the F4+SP bundles :(
05:56<Wolf01>I think they have a problem with the keys
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06:39<argoneus>Wolf01: use the live chat on kinguin
06:39<argoneus>it's actually really helpful
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06:45<Flygon>Dumb question
06:46<Flygon>Is there a Dutch Motorway Object set variant for Japanese roads?
06:46<Flygon>Nothing popped on up BaNaNas
07:13<Wolf01>bah, I can't understand how many screenshots they want to be able to know I can't redeem the key
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07:37<Flygon>I'd use it in US mode... but it'd look weird
07:39<@peter1138>Wolf01, next time, legit keys
07:40<Wolf01>paying twice, yes
07:41<Wolf01>btw, the verified stores should sell legit keys
07:41<Wolf01>like the bundles
07:42<@peter1138>verified? by who?
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08:12<Eddi|zuHause>by the verificator.
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08:52<@peter1138>Sub-Total: £746.74
08:52<@peter1138>VR is too damn expensive
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09:02<Montana>Hi all: I have a problem wien uploading to Bananas; i try to upload a file, but i get this message: "There is already a package with the unique id '47434552'.". Can naybody help me?
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09:27<Eddi|zuHause>Montana: if it's a version update, it must probably be uploaded with the same account as the first version
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i think i figured out why suggestion algorithms (like youtube videos, personalized ads, etc.) are so terrible. they have no concept of me being saturated with a certain kind of content, so "more of the same" will grow ever more annoying.
09:43<@peter1138>they also tend to include stuff you already watched a couple of views ago...
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10:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's just a special case of what i said
10:02<supermop>so i've drawn my belts as catenaries, so they can be tall,
10:04<supermop>but the two different simple rail sets i looked at on dev zone do not seem to have catenary sprites, so unsure what exactly a catenary sprite sheet would look at
10:04<supermop>also unsure how to get a project page for the belts so i can put what i have there for review
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there's a "dutch catenary" set, but that probably is not what you're looking for
10:06<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: probably nor, but i assume i should at least format my sprites in a similar manner?
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>in generally, catenary is drawn as two alternating tiles, a single-tile filler sprite, and an end-piece for tunnel entrances
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>and the sloped versions thereof, without the tunnel tile
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10:08<Eddi|zuHause>note that drawing belts as catenary will probably screw with your display of vehicles
10:12<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: poles and wire are separate sprites though right? i recall from making stations that you could disable one or the other independently
10:18<supermop>i am not sure if its possible to have the "poles" drawn so they are behind a vehicle - but my intention is to have the belt surface, supports, and back edge of structure as the "pole" positioned behind the vehicle position, and the front edge and 'hoops' that cover the belt would be the wire?
10:18<Montana>how is unique ID assigned at Bananas?
10:19<supermop>if that doesn't work could just 'flatten' the back half and draw it as regular track sprites, and only the front and cover is catenary
10:21<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: if you look at a firs clay pit, the reddish/pink bars over the belt are what i am referring to. Also these belts are so small i guess i'd be ok with never seeing the vehicles unless user hides overhead
10:21<supermop>as the vehicle is just going to be a 1 or 2 px wide black smear (or red for ore)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot affect the position of the poles, the game places them "randomly" in the front or the back
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "never see vehicles" is a good option, even if they are just 2 pixels
10:25<supermop>i have more 'philosophical' work to do later about what the functionality of this should be
10:28<supermop>is it expensive infrastructure but very high capacity and fast speed, or is it just a slow drip to smooth out bulk mineral deliveries? should one beltline be enough to handle all of the monthly deliveries of a busy powerplant/steel mill etc over the course of the month? or do users build more belts to increase capacity
10:29<supermop>for now though i just want some cute functional belts,, and i can adjust the speed and size of the 'piles' that travel the belt later
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>i was assuming it's the functional equivalent of the pipes GRF, just for bulk instead of liquid
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't agree with the functionality of the pipes GRF anyway.
10:47<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: same, but until there is some kind of new "continuous waytype" for gondolas, pipes, conveyors etc i think this is the best we can do
10:47<supermop>but i dont think it should be the high speed to represent continous delivery of pipes
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure i said this before, but it would probably work better as a roadtype, so you can have many small vehicles densely packed
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>and don't need extra tiles for a "return trip"
10:50<supermop>because i envision a use case that is specifically to slow down deliveries. If your steel mill gets 1000t of iron ore once every 3 months by train, and 600t of coal once every 4 months, you might rarely ever get the production bonus
10:51<supermop>maybe the belt lets you instead deliver that coal 50t every 10 days
10:52<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: if you use the belt as a shuttle you dont need a return belt
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>but that's the point, if you have a belts-as-railtype to deliver 50t every 10 days, you could also just have trains deliver 50t every 10 days
10:54<supermop>or trucks
10:55<supermop>or even barges
10:55<supermop>or wheelbarrows
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, if you implement belts as railtype, you can only make them equal, better or worse than trains. not an uncomparable with niche uses
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>at least not when you consider an arbitrary newgrf train set being used, where you don't know anything about possible niches left open
10:58<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i don't know if it will be possible to fully balance it but my idea is that the belt infrastructure is fairly expensive, but the piles of stuff are cheap and possibly slow
10:58<supermop>so that the belt is better suited to deliveries over a small distance, where the shuttle effect is most straightforward anyway
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>but "shuttle" is a terrible idea, because the game incentivizes you to have always a vehicle loading
11:00<supermop>of course anyone could could add a train grf with $1 refit to anything trains, which are also refittable to the exact capacity you want
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11:00<supermop>so it is impossible to balance anything against unknown future vehicles
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>it is impossible to balance the game anyway.
11:01<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: at a source industry you generally need two stations each always loading a vehicle if you want all of the cargo
11:02<supermop>but at some intermediate coal dump as long as the rating is over 50% you could have the 'last mile' belt in station only 1/2 the time or less
11:04<supermop>roadtype could work if andy gets there, but as is i think the various "subways/monorails/etc" should be coded as trams are even worse than using railtypes for these
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11:05<supermop>as then you end up with your subway/monorail/chairlift potentially stuck in traffic
11:11<supermop>anyway, i think it will be a huge mess finding the appropriate performance of belts
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11:13<supermop>but even if it is indistinguishable from a train, i think there will some advantage among some niche users who find building little rail networks around their mines or steel mills or power plants just doesn't look good to them (even though historically all of these would probably have some small internal rail system)
11:16<supermop>seeing as some users seem to like building beltlines out of objects or stations already
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12:22<Samu>hi all
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13:19<Samu>I still could not solve yesterday's problem.
13:20<Samu>it seems so trivial to solve and yet... I'm completely blocked in my thoughts
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13:20<Samu>already had a headache because of this, i'm exhausted
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13:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27562 trunk/configure (2016-05-12 19:24:06 +0200 )
13:24<@DorpsGek>-Fix: forgot one (hidden) case to force sorting to be locale independent
13:26<@Alberth>locale independent sorting, sounds quite nontrivial
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13:27<Matombo>is there a way to mass replace vehicles with the same type of vehicle?
13:27<@Alberth>somewhere in the settings
13:27<Matombo>i have a lot of aging trucks and don't want to do it mnually, i also don't want to set autoreplace for every vehicle
13:28<Matombo>but autorenew is for every vehicle
13:28<Matombo>i still want to do it manually
13:28<Matombo>like with the replacement dialoge
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13:28<Matombo>but not with a new vehicle type but with the same
13:29<@Alberth>then you need to do some programming first
13:29<Matombo>is there a mod somewhere that already implements this? xD
13:30<@Alberth>mod? what's that?
13:30<@Alberth>I know about source code patch, newgrfs, and scripts (GS and AI)
13:30<@Alberth>it all modifies things
13:31<@Alberth>but afaik, there is nothing in your direction
13:32<Matombo>well thanks anyway
13:32<@Alberth>one of the problems with programming games, users always want things that are not implemented :)
13:33<@Alberth>why is autorenew of everything a problem?
13:34<@Alberth>you just get new vehicles that are otherwise exactly the same
13:35<Matombo>i want to decide wen i spent money, i now i can set some options when the autorenew triggers, but i would still prefere doing the klick myself
13:35<Matombo>btw thanks for the awsome game wasted more hours the last week on it than on darksouls 2 xD
13:36<@Alberth>haha :)
13:36<@Alberth>addiction wears off in about 5-10 years :p
13:36<Matombo>and more hours than on my homework
13:36<Matombo>oh good to know
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13:38<Matombo>well a feature request for 1.7 or so: make the current vehicle type in the autoreplace dialog available too (maybe "hidden" behind a advanced setting)
13:38<Matombo>would that be possible?
13:39<@Alberth>I think that has been proposed before, and it makes sense to me
13:39<@Alberth>practically everything is possible, it's mostly a matter of finding a person that wants to spend a few months on it
13:40<supermop__>how is replace like with like different than autorenew?
13:40<Matombo>why is it so complicated altering the list of displayed options?
13:40<Matombo>it's toggle manually
13:40<@Alberth>well, feel free to proof me wrong then
13:40<supermop__>hmm now i have 2 _s
13:41<V453000>it is interesting that almost every single player who sends me personal messages or emails, is czech, and doesn§
13:41<V453000>t know I am as well
13:41<Matombo>i have no clue of the source code xD
13:41<_dp_>if you just add same type vehicles will end up constantly replacing since there is no age limit in autoreplace
13:41<Matombo>i read somewhere it was ported from a game written in assembler?
13:42<Matombo>but autoreplace has the function "only replace old vehicles"
13:43<@Alberth>how does that function then?
13:43<@Alberth>what does "enable" or "disable" mean there?
13:43<Matombo>i thought the only replace old vehicles option replaces all aged vehicles
13:44<@Alberth>how to preserve the old functionality without having two means to do the same thing
13:44<@Alberth>autoreplace starts replacing as soon as you click "replace on"
13:44<@Alberth>and if you click the same model at both sides it doesn't?
13:45<@Alberth>how is that consistent to the user?
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27563 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt spanish_MX.txt) (2016-05-12 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean: 1 change by Gimel3830
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 93 changes by Absay
13:45<Matombo>a i see my thought error
13:46<Matombo>i thought the start replacing is a one time trigger that replacesall current vehicles
13:46<Matombo>but not the one build in the future
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13:46<@Alberth>it does all forever, until out of money or turned off :)
13:47<@Alberth>I have it switched on always :)
13:47<@Alberth>but adding a display options is the simplest part of it all
13:48<@Alberth>most work is in making it all work seamlessly and consistently both for the new games, but also for the already existing games
13:48<@Alberth>without breaking anything
13:49<Matombo>and what exactly does the replace only old vehicles option?
13:50<@Alberth>autoreplace replaces as soon as you switch a replacement on
13:50<@Alberth>nothing on age, at least in vanilla openttd
13:50<@Alberth>patch packs may have additional settings
13:51<Matombo>yeah i got that
13:51<Matombo>but what doas the "replace only old vehicles" option then?
13:52<Matombo>i thought that one replaces the vehicle with the new one as soon as it passes the age line
13:52<@Alberth>where is that option?
13:52<@Alberth>I don't know it
13:53<Matombo>when you open the dropdown menu next to the "start replacing vehicle" button
13:54<@Alberth>:O interesting, didn't know that :)
13:55<Matombo>i'm sending you a screenshot screenshot
13:56<Matombo>did you get it?
13:56<@Alberth>I accepted, but it doesn't seem to get here
13:56<Matombo>ah damn
13:57<@Alberth>but I started openttd locally, and found it
13:58<@Alberth>I have no idea what it does
13:58<@Alberth>my guess is that it only autoreplaces when the vehicle is old enough
13:58<@Alberth>can you configure age somewhere?
13:59<@Alberth>although they probably just borrowed autorenew setting
13:59<@Alberth>btw, this does happen a lot, finding new options in a program you've been playing for years :p
13:59<Matombo>what about greying out "start replacing vehicles" when the same vehicle is selected on bouth sides and only make this option available: it would simply be a autorenew but only for specific vehicles and triggerable from a ingame interface without navigationg throu the advanced settings?
14:00<@Alberth>you'd need a way to express the current autorenew too then
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14:00<@Alberth>or existing savegames become a mess
14:01<Matombo>i can't follow you right now
14:02<@Alberth>you have a savegame with autorenew in it now
14:02<@Alberth>then a new openttd version arrives with the thing in a gui
14:02<@Alberth>you load your old game, and you expect it to use the new gui
14:03<@Alberth>thus, the new system needs to be able to express what autorenew is today, or you cannot load an old savegame
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14:04<@Alberth>it's not just adding, it's also providing an clean upgrade path for all existing games
14:04<Matombo>but currently you allready have this coexistance of autorenew and the defacto autorenew in the autoreplace dialoge
14:04<Matombo>it wouldn't change that but only giving new input values to the allready existing function
14:05<@Alberth>you can't just add new things
14:05<@Alberth>you'll end up with 35 ways to do something, where different settings doing subtle different things
14:06<@Alberth>it's a sure way to kill openttd
14:06<Matombo>well as we found out that is allready the status quo at the moment xD
14:06<@Alberth>instead, you try to unify things, and provide clean new ways
14:06<@Alberth>no, you cannot autorenew with the autoreplace
14:07<Matombo>ok your point is: before adding to old suboptimal ways try create a new better one
14:07<@Alberth>but I agree things can be improved
14:08<@Alberth>it's the only way to keep it maintainable
14:09<@Alberth>not to mention understandable for users
14:10<@Alberth>but even then, me not knowing about the option means it's too much hidden
14:10<Matombo>well some switch hidden in the advanced settings for such an essential task like it's at the moment isn'T really user friendly xD
14:12<@Alberth>not sure, I have it on, always, I never ever look at it
14:12<@Alberth>it depends a lot on how you play
14:13<@Alberth>but if you talk about user friendliness, there are much bigger fish than autorenew vs autoreplace :p
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14:16<andythenorth>Alberth: bananas enhancements? o_O
14:17<@Alberth>yep :)
14:17<@Alberth>they might not bite :p
14:18<@Alberth>but the path looks more feasible to me than just assume pictures will arrive from nowehere
14:19<andythenorth>I did have a VM for it
14:19<@Alberth>virtual bananas :p
14:19<andythenorth>but my virtualbox spontaneously stopped working :P
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14:50*andythenorth fixed virtualbox :P
14:53*frosch123 made an off-topic post in firs thread
14:53<frosch123>so ashamed :)
14:55<@Alberth>mod will move the posts :p
14:56<Samu>please help, answer in the topic plz, cus im gonna have dinner atm
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15:11<frosch123>i recently heard about banana pancakes
15:11<frosch123>apparently you do not even put flour into them
15:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27564 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-05-12 21:14:06 +0200 )
15:14<@DorpsGek>-Update: Ownname of es_MX.
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15:42<@peter1138>yeah they're quite nice
15:44<Samu>back, no one replied :(
15:44<andythenorth>Samu: it’s a hard-knock life :)
15:45<Samu>there has to be a solution to my problem :|
15:50<@Alberth>I had that same idea about type checkers, it only took me 10 years to get used to the idea it was a extremely difficult problem
15:50<@Alberth>don't know how hard your problem is
15:50<@Alberth>it may be simpler, it may not
15:55*andythenorth ponders
15:55<andythenorth>so many choices
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16:03<Samu>i thought this would fix the problem, return slot < max_slot - uncounted_ais && total_ais < GetGameSettings().difficulty.max_no_competitors
16:03<Samu>but then there's yet a 3rd problem arising
16:04<Samu>there seems to be no easy solution
16:08<Samu>working with suppositions is probably the reason why I'm coding this function wrong
16:09<Samu>brb, gonna expose the 3rd problem in the topic
16:10<andythenorth>samu is remarkably persistent :)
16:10<Samu>yes, maybe too much that it becomes unhealthy
16:11<Samu>i got a headhache this morning that made me stop working on this
16:12<andythenorth>you could try coding NotRoadTypes as a diversion ;)
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16:23<@Alberth>Samu: max_slot is a red herring
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16:25<@Alberth>you know number of running AIs, you know max number of competitors, you have a list of slots, some filled and some not
16:26<@Alberth>former 2 tell you number of slots to fill, latter tells you which ones
16:28<Samu>3rd problem posted
16:33<@Alberth>like I said max_slot as some upper limit is a red herring
16:34<@Alberth>int max_slot = GetGameSettings().difficulty.max_no_competitors; <-- from this line and below, kill everything
16:34<@Alberth>you need to max_no_competitors, but not as max_slot
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17:05<Samu>what's a red herring
17:13<Supercheese>tl;dr: something misleading
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17:19<Samu>i don't understand fully what Alberth said
17:20<Samu>so i got total_ais, and i got max_no_competitors - these tell me the number of slots to fill
17:21<Samu>then i got a list of slots, some filled and some not, these are which slots to fill
17:21<Samu>confused :(
17:21<Samu>[21:34] <@Alberth> int max_slot = GetGameSettings().difficulty.max_no_competitors; <-- from this line and below, kill everything
17:22<Samu>kill everything? what does he mean with this?
17:24<Samu>max_slot is a red herring... you need to max_no_competitors, but not as max_slot
17:24<Samu>arf... :(
17:25<Samu>can't use max_slot for the problem
17:25<+glx>knowing how many slots to fill, you just need to find the first empty slot, and repeat the search for each empty slot
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18:30<Samu>wow glx, i think i did it
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18:32<Samu>interesting that I got rid of max_slot
18:32<Samu>i always thought I needed it
18:35<Samu>do you find any flaws in this solution?
18:35<Samu>a quick testing seems to do everything correctly
18:35<Samu>but still, I wonder if it's fool-proof
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18:49<Samu>thx glx and alberth
18:49<Samu>still fawless
18:49<Samu>have yet to find this erroring
18:49<Samu>so far it's working correctly
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18:56<Samu>well cyas, goodnight
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---Logclosed Fri May 13 00:00:12 2016