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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-15

---Logopened Sun May 15 00:00:15 2016
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03:22<andythenorth>o/
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04:45<Leanden>o/
04:45<Leanden>Wonder if someone can help me
04:46<Leanden>I have coded my HST trains but found that some pixels are animated
04:46<Leanden>i repalletized to the noaction pallet and palletized back to ttd dos
04:46<Leanden>but the animated pixels are still animated -.-
04:47<Leanden>what is the best way to replace these without painstakingly redrawing every pixel?
04:47<Leanden>or is there a way to disable animation on newgrf trains?
04:55<@planetmaker>you cannot disable palette animation; you simply need to use the correct colours
04:56<@planetmaker>(except you can disable it for the whole game. But that's a client-side action, nothing you as NewGRF author will be able to aks players to do in any way
04:56<@planetmaker>With a proper graphics programme you colour select the wrong colour and replace it globally by the right one
04:58<V453000>I believe you should be able to download no-anim palette from the devzone for your pixel editor
04:58<V453000>and re-save images with that
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05:00<Leanden>i tried that V45
05:01<Leanden>but when i try to run nmlc it says its an incomplete pallet (only 208 colours)
05:01<V453000>:d
05:01<V453000>which one are you using?
05:01<Leanden>image editor or pallet?
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05:02<Leanden>GIMP and my default is openttd-dos
05:02<Leanden>but the im using ttd-noaction to remove the animation pixels
05:03<V453000>hm
05:03<V453000>I don't use gimp so I can't check if the pallete there works fine
05:03<V453000>cause when I tried with photoshop, there was some weird stuff happening too
05:03<Leanden>It hasnt been an issue until now
05:03<V453000>like, it still animated
05:04<V453000>or something
05:04<Leanden>oh
05:04<Leanden>so what graphics program do you use then?
05:04<V453000>`ps
05:05<Leanden>but you said you get glitches?
05:06<V453000>I might have done something wrong, or the PS palette on devzone is borked
05:06<V453000>I only tried once
05:06<Leanden>Odd thing is i even took a pixel drop of a non-animated pixel and then pasted over the animated ones
05:06<V453000>generally I use the one with action colours
05:06<V453000>heh
05:06<Leanden>but once i ran the pallet it was animated again!!!
05:06<V453000>hm
05:06<V453000>weird
05:06<Leanden>hmmm hold on
05:07<Leanden>i think the noaction palette is Win
05:07<Leanden>but the rest of my palette is DOS
05:07<Leanden>are the reds in the win pallet action colours in the DOS?
05:07<V453000>I think you should always use DOS but I am not sure at all
05:07<Leanden>well there isnt a DOS noaction pallet ;)
05:07<V453000>what
05:08<V453000>meh devzone borkd
05:08<Leanden>ah there is one for photoshop
05:08<Leanden>but not for GIMP
05:11<Leanden>ahhh i think i solved it!
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05:15<Leanden>-.- it didnt work
05:15<Leanden>im literally lost as to why these animated pixels wont go away
05:16<Leanden>and its just that one red colour!!
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05:23<@Alberth>it's not the colour that's used, it's the palette index
05:31<@Alberth>so you need to replace it with a pixel with a different palette index
05:32<@Alberth>(unless nml is more smart than I think it is)
05:33<Leanden>ahh i see
05:34<Leanden>any quick way to do that in GIMP? :P
05:36*andythenorth catching up
05:36<andythenorth>Leanden definitely use the DOS palette everywhere
05:37<andythenorth>there are various palettes floating around for download
05:37<andythenorth>ttd-dos.act is the filename of the one I use
05:37<TrueBrain>As a general FYI: I moved stuff around in openttd.org, and email are now sent from another VM. Please let me know if you no longer receive an email you used to be able, etc
05:38<andythenorth>in photoshop this palette is applied to the document, in indexed colour mode *or* applied on export to an RGB document
05:38<andythenorth>but to remove the red pixel, you need to find replace with a different red
05:39<andythenorth>there are a number of very similar reds, some animated, some not… this is a common problem in sprites people send to me
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05:40<TrueBrain>whoho, openttd.org gets an A+ from SSLLabs again :D
05:40<andythenorth>are we PCI Compliant? :P
05:41<TrueBrain>who? :P
05:43<TrueBrain>about 50% of the requests is HTTP/2 :)
05:43<TrueBrain>about 10% of the requests is HTTP/1.0 ....
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05:44<Wolf01>o/
05:44<@Alberth>o/
05:45<@Alberth>/me wonders about the remaining 40%
05:45<TrueBrain>HTTP/1.1 ofc
05:46<TrueBrain>10% of our requests are via IPv6
05:46<@Alberth>ok :)
05:46<TrueBrain>it is slowly growing :)
05:46<TrueBrain>hmm, I do not store how many request are via SSL
05:46<TrueBrain>that would be a nice thing to know
05:47<andythenorth>hmm
05:47*andythenorth thought newgrf trains had a curve speed penalty option
05:47<TrueBrain>be careful with that
05:47<TrueBrain>thinking
05:47<TrueBrain>*shivers*
05:47<@Alberth>:)
05:48<andythenorth>hmm, it’s in the railtype
05:48<andythenorth>makes sense I guess :P
05:48<@Alberth>for some value of guess, sure :p
05:49<andythenorth>I think newgrf spec is telling me that this train roster does not have good gameplay
05:49<@Alberth>:(
05:49<andythenorth>looking for arcane bits of spec is usually a sign of that
05:49<andythenorth>it’s ok :)
05:49<andythenorth>“we have the technology, we can rebuild him"
05:49<@Alberth>phew :)
05:50<TrueBrain>whoho, logging SSL and cipher used :D
05:50<@Alberth>/me just changed the ssh key to rsa
05:50<andythenorth>@seen supermop
05:50<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: supermop was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 19 hours, 30 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <supermop> but i do have a shogi-ban, because my first goban came with one on the back, and a set of plastic shogi pieces
05:50<TrueBrain>bingbot connects via https :)
05:51<@Alberth>lol
05:51<@Alberth>although some sites may not be connectable otherwise
05:51<TrueBrain>eyeballing this, it seems 50/50 (http vs https)
05:51<TrueBrain>eyeballing this, 99% is TLSv1.2 :)
05:52<andythenorth>I envy the days when I didn’t know what TrueBrain was talking about
05:52<TrueBrain>hahaha :D
05:52<andythenorth>life was simpler then
05:53<TrueBrain>mainly I have been wondering what happens if I enforce SSL :P
05:54<andythenorth>you bounce some clients that can only use flawed versions of TLS?
05:54*andythenorth says words
05:54<@Alberth>/me understands some of the words
05:55<andythenorth>or even clients that predate TLS?
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05:55<andythenorth>pre-date not predate :P
05:56<TrueBrain>yeah ... our own client connect via http :D
05:56<andythenorth>but but but
05:56<andythenorth>that means someone could MITM my savegame :P
05:57<TrueBrain>savegame? :)
05:57<TrueBrain>its a bit silly .. we have HSTS enabled, which means that once you visited the website via https, your browser will do its best to always reuse https for the domain
05:57<TrueBrain>which is lovely
05:57<TrueBrain>but when you just arrive at the site via http
05:58<TrueBrain>you might never see this
05:58<TrueBrain>there is a 'preload' list, but that has as requirement that you always redirect http users to https
05:58<TrueBrain>but that is not really what I want .. I just want people to be directed to https if they are capable
06:01*andythenorth lunch
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06:01<@Alberth>ha, almost, but not really :)
06:01<TrueBrain>on the plus-side, google reports all our links as https :)
06:04<Samu>hi
06:06<Samu>i believe I "fixed" yesterday's issue, Alberth - https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p6oqrm63s
06:06<Samu>it's not a direct fix per se
06:07<Samu>line 21 is added
06:07<Samu>line 20 breaks it
06:07<Samu>line 21 breaks it again to "fix" it
06:08<Samu>2 wrongs make a right in this case, not the optimal way to fix it, but it works
06:11<@Alberth>yeah, it looks quite weird at least
06:15<Samu>i wish i could do better
06:45<Samu>there is no way to select none for AIs, right?
06:47<Samu>my fix will work, for as long as it continues to be no way to select a "none" AI
06:47<@Alberth>reduce number of competitors to 0
06:48<Samu>you're not really selecting a "none" AI that way
06:49<Samu>brb, deleting all scripts
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06:53<TrueBrain>so many threads these days asking for help/info/features for Android/iOS ports
06:54<TrueBrain>are they really that popular? Always assumed it would be unbearable to play (because the lack of a mouse)
06:58<@Alberth>maybe the port added a lot of usability features
06:59<@Alberth>at least I know he modified to main toolbar as it didn't fit on the screen
07:01<Wolf01>having OTTD on windows mobile working with continuum would be a nice feature
07:03<Leanden>andythenorth: is there a way i can get GIMP just to replace that particular red, or if you know a quick way could i send you the sprites to change it for me ;D
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07:12<Wolf01>quak
07:12<frosch123>hoi
07:13<V453000>hm, I am thinking about completely changing BRIX visual style XD
07:14<@Alberth>hi hi
07:14<@Alberth>everything upside down? :)
07:15<V453000>kind of
07:15<V453000>thing is, the texture-less thing is nice and clean
07:15<V453000>but eyes hurt from it
07:15<V453000>& integrating things to make them look nice is almost impossible because there is no comfy noise to get lost in
07:16<@Alberth>adding noise seems the answer :)
07:16<V453000>well just random noise won't work
07:16<V453000>means it needs some texture and some detail
07:16<V453000>which kind of completely changes the concept
07:16<@Alberth>quite
07:19<V453000>also, I think I have kind of a strong colour concept
07:19<V453000>but not general style
07:19<V453000>as in, I made a rule for myself that important stuff has colour, non gameplay important stuff is desaturated
07:19<V453000>but it doesn't actually answer the style of things
07:19<V453000>which causes issue
07:19<V453000>e
07:19<V453000>s
07:20<V453000>right now my brain is in space scifi mode
07:21<V453000>will consider how much can I do without actually reworking the 3D models
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07:48<@Alberth>concept drawings :)
07:55<argoneus>good morning train friends
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09:23<m4110c>Hi
09:23<argoneus>heyo
09:23<m4110c>Just started playing Ottd a few days ago
09:24<m4110c>really addictive
09:24<m4110c>"just connect one more city"
09:24<m4110c>"uh, I quickly need to improve services for Wrintbourne"
09:24<m4110c>but … how do I enable autorenew of vehicles?
09:25<m4110c>Wiki says, there’s a preference
09:25<m4110c>but for me, the list of prefs in that window is a _lot_ shorter …
09:25<m4110c>(OpenTTD 1.6.0)
09:25<frosch123>there is a filter at the top
09:25<m4110c>"show all prefs, even the weird ones"
09:25<m4110c>is active
09:28<m4110c>https://s1.hoffart.de/~goetz/ottd1.png
09:28<frosch123>it's under "company"
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09:28<frosch123>"firma" in your case
09:29<frosch123>if you looked under "vehicles", you probably found some information for ottd <= 1.1
09:29<m4110c>aaaargl
09:29<m4110c>thanks a lot
09:29<m4110c>the wiki page’s text is correct
09:29<m4110c>but the screenshot is old/wrong/misleading:
09:29<m4110c>https://wiki.openttd.org/File:Advset_vehicles.png
09:30<m4110c>-> under "Vehicles"
09:30<Samu>1.0.4 OpenTTD :p
09:31<m4110c>the referencing page says: 1.3.1
09:31<m4110c>https://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles
09:31<frosch123>ok, maybe the gui was shuffled in 1.4 then :)
09:31<m4110c>however, thanks
09:32<m4110c>I would’ve searched that forever …
09:32<m4110c>can I prevent that cities build streets automatically over railway tracks?
09:32<frosch123>yes
09:32<frosch123>same gui
09:32<frosch123>use the "suchtext" entry at the top, if in doubt :)
09:33<Samu>it's an all or nothing :(
09:33<Samu>that's something I've had in mind about that
09:33<Samu>avoid towns building road on rails
09:33<Samu>but still allow towns building roads
09:34<Samu>my english today ...
09:38<Samu>what do u think about autoclean for AIs?
09:38<Samu>an AI died... autoclean it
09:38<Samu>and another takes place
09:39<Samu>i guess i better leave it for now
09:58<Samu>just found out dead scripts don't save data, it saves empty
09:59<Samu>which is good news for what I'm doing
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10:18<Samu>weird, the GS is active in the scenario editor or am I seeing things?
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10:31<Samu>is it intended that a GS is active in the scenario editor?
10:32<Samu>i better make sure of this
10:32<Samu>bbrb
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10:41<Samu>if I configure a GS in main menu then enter Scenario Editor, the GS does not start
10:41<Samu>if I save the scenario, then load it back, the GS becomes active
10:41<Samu>I am 95% sure this is a bug
10:42<Samu>tested with a broken BusyBee to make it crash, just to make sure
10:43<Samu>it crashed while in scenario editor which means it was active
10:46<m4110c>thanks again. Bye!
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11:24<Samu>how would you deal with a bug like this?
11:25<Samu>anyway I'm reporting it
11:26<@Alberth>no idea what to do, but I can imagine that something like that would be fogotten, scenario editor is always very much tested :p
11:26<@Alberth>thanks for the report
11:26<@Alberth>*forgotten
11:27<@Alberth>first guess is trying to suppress the GS in the same way as the first time
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11:53<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6464
11:53<Samu>when saving the scenario for the first time, the script doesn't have any save data
11:54<Samu>loading it, starts the script
11:54<Samu>saving the scenario afterwards will save the script data into the file...
11:55<Samu>loading it again, we have the script also loading this saved data, assuming it didn't crash
11:56<Samu>how would you maintain save or load compatibility after fixing this bug? :(
12:00<Samu>what to do with the unwanted save data of the bugged saved scenarios?
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12:20<@planetmaker>samu: simply ignore bugged or unwanted data on load
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13:21<Samu>there's a different issue
13:21<Samu>if i load a save game, not a scenario, in the scenario editor, the save contains data for the ais and scripts
13:22<Samu>if the gs doesn't start now, saving the scenario afterwards... rips away any saved data of ais :(
13:23<Samu>gs/ais
13:23<+glx>of course, a scenario doesn't have AI
13:24<Samu>must check if that actually happens
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13:35<_dp_>hi, how do I switch from big font back to normal in gs strings?
13:36<_dp_>there is {BIG_FONT} and {TINY_FONT} control codes but no NORMAL_FONT or so
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13:41<Samu>i'm not sure what's actually happening with AIs in scenario editor
13:42<Samu>their companies are there, but their scripts, not sure
13:47<+glx>_dp_: same for standard strings
13:53<_dp_>glx, I know it's same, but is there a way to do it?
13:53<+glx>there isn't
13:54<+glx>but each string start as NORMAL_FONT
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14:14<_dp_>bugs in tracker seem to have votes counter, but how do I vote for bugs?
14:16<_dp_>there are even votes for some tasks
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think voting is a useful feature
14:17<_dp_>why not?
14:18<_dp_>also it look broken right now, not disabled
14:18<@Alberth>random guess, it came enabled out of the box :)
14:19<@Alberth>but sure, people post feature requests in the tracker, why not vote?
14:20<_dp_>I often see +1 spam in trackers that don't have voting
14:21<@planetmaker>hm, true. But it makes more sense to actually have it, when it is being used to create a priority list when you have limited ressources
14:22<@Alberth>I don't think solving technical problems and democratic votes work well together
14:22*andythenorth reads log
14:23<andythenorth>votes are fine when there’s a decision to be made
14:23<andythenorth>there’s no decision here :)
14:23<_dp_>it gives devs good idea of what people want more, ofc it shouldn't mean that most upvoted stuff get implemented no matter what
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but for that there needs to be a consistent level of dev-work to be done regularly
14:24<andythenorth>devs have almost zero interest in what people want more of :)
14:24<andythenorth>I’m not speaking for every contribute mind
14:25<andythenorth>contributor *
14:25<andythenorth>but I think in broad terms, there is tiny or no interest in fixing bugs now
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure voting shines in professional environments, but for a hobby-environment?
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14:26<andythenorth>or any environment without active development?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>in a hobby environment, even during more active times, devs value their own interest way more than other people's interest.
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's questioning the value of the voting data. you end up with most bugs getting 1 vote from the reporter, or maybe not. and almost never more than 1
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>which means there's a lot of random noise
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>and not much actual content to read out
14:30<@Rubidium>if you would handle bugs with higher vote count first, then OpenTTD would quickly become an unplayable heap of "features"
14:30<@Rubidium>s/bugs/issues/
14:31*andythenorth wonders when the last bug was closed
14:31*andythenorth looks for self :P
14:32<@Rubidium>a few days ago
14:32<andythenorth>oh 3 days ago :)
14:32<andythenorth>so actually we do have quite active development
14:32<Samu>think my last bug report is questionable
14:33<andythenorth>12 fixes in 2016 so far
14:33<andythenorth>and one feature
14:34<Samu>maybe it's fine for the script to be active, however it's dormant, idling or so
14:35<Samu>I can't figure out if the GS is actually doing anything
14:37<Samu>seems that the script save data must be passed from save to save, even when saving from scenario editor
14:41*andythenorth does play OpenTTD
14:45<Samu>looks like it's not a bug after all
14:47<Samu>both ais and gss are loadable in the scenario editor, but.. i guess it's for a reason it does that
14:47<Samu>i just can't figure if they're actively doing anything. their instance is initiated though
14:47<@Alberth>you want a ai/gs to be part of the scenario, and after all, it's just a savegame
14:48<@Alberth>yeah, that's the puzzle, should an ai/gs be active in the editor; My first guess is no
14:49<Samu>the only reason i can find to maintain the instance initiated is to keep saving their data
14:52<Samu>accessing AI/Game Script settings from the scenario editor under this cirmumstances becomes complicated...
14:53<Samu>they are there, with their instances being kept alive, but apparently dormant, how will i reflect the correct information in that window?
15:02<Samu>okay, seems like the issue is only related to GS's
15:03<Samu>more specifically, during the saving of a scenario when the GS script is chosen but not even started
15:03<Samu>hard to explain
15:05<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6464 - on step 2, this saving must be lacking some info about the GS
15:06<Samu>when saving, if it was currently active or not
15:06<Samu>it is assumed that GS's are always actively running when doing a save
15:06<Samu>guess that's the piece of information that is lacking
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15:44<andythenorth>so the patch for windowshade on rail station selection, was the conclusion that station UI needs redesigned from scratch? o_O
15:48<@Alberth>I'd first try shuffling the components of the window a bit
15:49<@Alberth>not sure what else yo can do, most stuff in there is required
15:49<@Alberth>*you
15:52<andythenorth>well, the trivial thing is to just patch locally ;)
15:52<andythenorth>and not play MP games requiring unpatched ottd
15:56<@Alberth>install a second copy for MP :)
15:59<andythenorth>I have several :D
16:05<@Alberth>:)
16:05<@Alberth>good night
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16:30<Samu>if (Game::GetInstance() != NULL) Game::Save();
16:31<Samu>this shall do it, let's see
16:43<Samu>nope, breaks loading of old saves
16:43<Samu>I don't know what to do
17:04<Samu>okay, so it has to save the GS data
17:05<Samu>when loading it back, it must not start it up, and yet must load the saved data
17:05<Samu>peculiar
17:06<Samu>the bug is not in the saving, but in the loading
17:06<Samu>if it's a bug, that is
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17:38<Samu>I don't know what to do, really peculiar situation
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17:40<Samu>1 - if I lauch scenario editor, configure a GS, then save it, then when loading the scenario back, I don't want it to start the GS instance
17:42<Samu>if do that, then in the case that I load a save game with a GS, in the scenario editor, the instance isn't started
17:42<Samu>if I do that*
17:43<Samu>if it's not started, saving it now, won't save its data, the next load won't have this data anymore :(
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17:44<Samu>it must always save this data, it can't be lost, the only means to have it save and load is to start the GS instance in the scenario editor
17:45<Samu>can't have one without the other... it's a loop
17:45<Samu>what to do what to do :(
17:49<Samu>the save complements the load, and the load complements the save. If the instance isn't initiated in one of the cases, the loop breaks :\
17:49<Samu>halp
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18:21<Samu>there are 3 types of GS's
18:22<Samu>the (none) GS, the configured GS but not started, the configured GS but started
18:22<Samu>i need a table... brb
18:23<Samu>then there's the GS of the current game, and the GS of the save
18:36<Samu>maybe 4 ways :(
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19:30<Samu>I give up
19:31<Samu>couldn't come to any conclusion
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---Logclosed Mon May 16 00:00:16 2016