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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-21

---Logopened Sat May 21 00:00:24 2016
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05:03<@Alberth>moin
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05:09<andythenorth>o/
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05:36<openbu|2>Hi
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05:41<frosch123>hoi mammals
05:42<frosch123>sometimes you learn about your mail group memberships only when someone sends spam to them :p
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05:47<@Alberth>:)
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06:43<andythenorth>so I have unexpected 24 hours with nothing I have to do
06:43<andythenorth>NotRoadTypes? o_O
06:48<@Alberth>is an option, make new bus stops possible :p
06:48<@Alberth>bbl
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06:50<argoneus>good morning train friends
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10:59<Samu>Wormnest: is WormAI your AI'
11:00<Wormnest>Samu: yes
11:00<Samu>ah, nice. what does this setting change?
11:00<Samu>How fast this AI will think
11:01<Samu>fast = better paths, worst paths?
11:01<Samu>want to set it to be super rich
11:02<Samu>to be ultra competitive
11:02<@Alberth>give it all your money!
11:03<Samu>I'm piting WormAI with NoCAB and maybe a 3rd one, which have yet to decid
11:03<Samu>trAIns again, not sure
11:03<@Alberth>samu as 3rd one ?
11:03<Wormnest>It´s mostly how long it waits between trying to build something new
11:04<Samu>ah, then fast it is
11:04<Wormnest>But I also try to make it into similar like difficulty, thus slow=easy, fast=difficult
11:05<Wormnest>yea fast is best for most competitive
11:05<Samu>maybe I'm trying SimpleAI, instead of trAIns
11:06<Wormnest>SimpleAI is where I based my trains part off, so maybe better to choose another one
11:06<Samu>ah, ok ok
11:06<Wormnest>Although I have made changes to make it different and more changes to come
11:07<Wormnest>Terron is usually doing pretty well
11:09<Samu>ok, i got Terron setup
11:12<Samu>generating map
11:12<Samu>5 AIs, this will be slow
11:15<Samu>NoCAB eating ram like nothing
11:15<@Alberth>luckily you get it back after use
11:16<Samu>oh right, Terron is also a ram eater
11:17<Wormnest>How can you tell which is using a lot of ram
11:17<Samu>i used to test them solo
11:18<Wormnest>ah ok
11:19<Wormnest>I´m testing 14 atm it´slow but I´m not in a hurry
11:21<Samu>https://www.openttd.org/en/server/98619
11:24<Wormnest>At least I have a more reasonable mapsize lol. I use 512x512 and don´t use a server.
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11:26<Samu>i'd like to test 15 AIs, but it ends up crashing OpenTTD at some point
11:26<Samu>oh, just crashed
11:26<Samu>with only 5
11:27<Samu>crashes out of nowhere
11:28<Wormnest>Maybe it runs out of memory with that map size
11:28<Samu>there is no crash report, I don't know what to do when there's no log
11:29<@Alberth>maybe it ran out of memory
11:30<@Alberth>making a crash reports also takes memory, which is hard if you don't have any left
11:30<Samu>but how? I'm running 64-bit OpenTTD
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11:31<Samu>windows event log: Código de exceção: 0xc0000005
11:31<@Alberth>yeah, whoever invented translations of system errors should be shot
11:32<@Alberth>but the internet can tell you what error it is
11:34<Samu>we have a dump... C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER568.tmp.dmp, probably i can't access it anyway
11:34<Wormnest>It´s most likely in a format you can´t read yourself
11:35<Samu>i navigate to that folder, and the folder is emtpy
11:35<Samu>windows likes to hide system stuff
11:40<Samu>google says: access violation (0xc0000005)
11:45<Samu>testing again, but now with visual studio launching it
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12:07<Samu>yeah nocab started finally
12:08<Samu>buy 75 hovercrafts
12:08<Samu>keks, that's unusual
12:09<Samu>i wonder why it isn't crashing now
12:09<Samu>did you try to join the game the other time?
12:10<Samu>there's a few times the server crashes when someone joins
12:11<Samu>oh wow... it crashed now, visual studio is saying something
12:11<Samu>why did I speak
12:12<Samu>Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005:
12:12<Samu>Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x000000AF132DFFF8.
12:12<Samu>matches what google said
12:25<Samu>what's a minidump with heap?
12:28<Samu>error saving dump. Invalid pointer.
12:31<Samu>oh wow, a 4.59 GB dump file :) do you want it?
12:31<@Alberth>nah, stack trace at most
12:32<@Alberth>if it provides anything useful
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12:33<Samu>i got 2 save dump options, minidump, a 1 MB file, and minidump with heap, 4.59 GB
12:33<@Alberth>I have no idea what that means
12:34<Samu>dumping with visual studio
12:34<@Alberth>but I believe it crashed
12:34<@Alberth>stacktrace of what it was doing might be useful
12:35<@Alberth>at least if you run a non-modified version
12:36<Samu>call stack?
12:36<@Alberth>something like that yeah
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12:36<@Alberth>about 20-50 lines of "I was in this function at this line"
12:37<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxmkc5kjr
12:38<Samu>uhm, page isn't opening :8
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12:38<@Alberth>how much text is it?
12:39<Samu>http://pastebin.com/raw/agd1FqdS
12:40<Samu>a lot, sorry
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12:40<@Alberth>The maximum number of stack frames supported by Visual Studio has been exceeded. <-- haha :)
12:40<@Alberth>but it looks like a crash in squirrel
12:41<@Alberth>the call stack is not complete
12:41<@Alberth>lots of recursive calls aren't interesting
12:42<@Alberth>you might have run out of stack space
12:42<Samu>me? probably one of the AIs
12:42<@Alberth>feasible too
12:43<@Alberth>it looks like the garbage collector though
12:43<@Alberth>which suggests it may be the squirrel engine itself
12:44<Samu>I will try again, see if it comes out with a similar error
12:45<@Alberth>you haven't seen the error itself
12:45<@Alberth>this was just a part of the path to it
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12:50<Samu>[17:35] <@Alberth> at least if you run a non-modified version - oops
12:51<Samu>im running my "patch" AI gui thing on top of it
12:55<Samu>I expect NoCAB is the culprit
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12:56<Samu>the first time it crashed it was right after NoCAB had made it's first route
12:56<Samu>the 2nd time, the same
12:56<Samu>but i'm also running 4 other AIs
12:56<Samu>next time after this one, I will test NoCAB solo
12:58<Samu>oh, and I will test without my gui stuff, too
12:58<@Alberth>stack trace seems not related to gui, but leaving own changes out is a good way to make sure
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12:59<andythenorth>supermop: o/
13:03<Samu>crash!
13:04<Samu>NoCAB made ships, and shortly after OpenTTD crashes again
13:05<Samu>the error is not the same
13:05<Samu>Unhandled exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0xECCBA1FFC8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
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13:05<Samu>only 1 line in call stack
13:05<Samu>> openttd.exe!SQSharedState::MarkObject(SQObjectPtr & o, SQCollectable * * chain) Line 235 C++
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13:07<Samu>there's a nice comment in line 243 there
13:07<Samu> default: break; //shutup compiler
13:07<Samu>keks
13:09<@Alberth>that doesn't write anything :p
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13:12<Samu>testing NoCAB solo now
13:13<Samu>reverted to trunk version r27569M
13:13<Samu>i can't totally revert one file
13:13<Samu>the vcxproj thing
13:14<Samu>that's the only modification
13:16<+michi_cc>From the callstack I'd say that there's an squirrel array that contains itself. No idea though if this is caused by OTTD or a bug in NoCAB.
13:18<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pezvizdbp - if i don't setup those files, i can't even launch openttd with visual studio
13:19<Samu>oh, and dpi awareness, because... reasons
13:19<Samu>forgot that's also included in that file
13:21<Samu><ClInclude Include="..\src\saveload\game_sl.h" /> - i have no idea what the hell is that
13:21<Samu>there is no such file
13:21<Samu>just searched for it
13:23<Samu>oh:( there is, but it's totally emtpy, it must have been when i was testing stuff with visual studio, grr
13:24<+glx>openttd essential stuff must go to user file, not main project file
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13:28<Samu>crash!
13:28<Samu>Exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0x795BC4FFE8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
13:29<Samu>http://pastebin.com/py8GMFS5
13:30<Samu>gonna try providing screenshot
13:31<+glx>looks like an infinite loop
13:31<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/qtK8GSs.jpg
13:31<Samu>openTTD was solo now
13:31<Samu>derp, *nocab was solo now
13:32<Samu>he builds the first route, then after a while... crash
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13:34<Wormnest_>It may be collecting so much data for such a large map that squirrel or openttd can´t handle it
13:35<Samu>3.3 GB RAM in use
13:36<Samu>OpenTTD with a total of 4.2 GB virtual size, i don't know if there's a limitation there
13:36<Samu>but I tested Release x64 build
13:36<+glx>call stack looks like a recursion
13:39<+glx>and it's the garbage collector
13:39<Wormnest_>Did the NoCAB script debug window show any details about what it was doing
13:39<Samu>yes
13:39<Samu>building connections in the background it seems
13:39<Samu>not really building them
13:40<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/qtK8GSs.jpg
13:40<Samu>there
13:42<Samu>will try NoCAB on a 2K map
13:43<+glx>too much towns for the AI probably
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13:45<Samu>the map generataed bout 12k~13k towns
13:45<Wormnest_>Or you could try the Bleeding Edge version maybe it fixes the problem
13:46<Samu>that version always fails to launch
13:46<+glx>if the AI starts listing all possible connection that can go very far with that number of towns
13:47<V453000>if I make a NewGRF which only uses replace and replacenew, so that it can be used as a base set, can I make it for example define a new vehicle - possible to turn off by a parameter, and still use it as static newgrf with that vehicle turned off by the parameter?
13:47<V453000>in other words, do parameter-disabled things break the static-only usage?
13:47<V453000>I guess they shouldn't, right??
13:48<+glx>I think openttd checks the current state for static
13:50<V453000>-> I can just have a parameter "make newgrf work as static" ?
13:51<@Alberth>why not make 2 newgrfs?
13:51<@Alberth>eliminates all mistakes
13:52<V453000>that's meh
13:52<V453000>I would prefer to have one if I can
13:52<V453000>the extra functions won't be much
13:52<V453000>universal wagon, universal rail
13:52<@Alberth>80% of the users don't set parameters
13:53<V453000>yeah, vast majority of users has no clue what is a static newgrf either
13:53<@Alberth>well, that saves you pretty much then :)
13:53<V453000>so on that note the separation of newgrfs has no use for them :P
13:53<frosch123>V453000: no that does not work
13:53<frosch123>but you can make an add-on grf
13:53<V453000>why doesn't it work? :(
13:54<frosch123>the "unsafe" check does not evalutate parameters
13:55<V453000>:(
13:55<V453000>:(
13:55<V453000>:(
13:56<Samu>NoCAB seems working on a 2k map, already made 3 routes
13:56<V453000>I wonder if I want to release 2 versions, one for static use and one complete
13:56<V453000>cause add-on is kind of meh
13:56<Samu>mem usage peaked at 1.5 GB virtual
13:57<Samu>let me see how many towns it generated
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13:58<Samu>3k towns
14:01<V453000>:( why nothing I think about in the last 2 weeks works
14:04<Samu>virtual size is rising, at 1.670K now, hmm maybe i better wait and see what happens
14:04<Samu>it may yet crash
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>why do you need both a static and a non-static grf? sounds like wrong design goals
14:08<V453000>well because brix is mostly a graphics replacement, but it would be nice if the same newgrf could also add a couple functional features
14:08<_dp_>shouldn't any grf that doesn't change game mechanics be like that?
14:08<V453000>because making an add-on newgrf is basically useless for any use without brix itself
14:10<V453000>so it pretty much is one newgrf, but has to be split due to $reasons
14:11<_dp_>hm, so you want a way to tell whether grf is static?
14:11<_dp_>doesn't sound to hard to implement
14:11<V453000>that, but with ability to check parameters
14:11<V453000>so I could have a mostly visual replacement newgrf with a couple of extra functional features like universal rail or universal wagon for industry support
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>just make it a non-static grf
14:11<V453000>and ability to disable each of those functional things by parameter, and then being able to use static newgrf
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>that will never work
14:12<V453000>but why couldn't it?
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14:13<Eddi|zuHause>because the complexity of checking whether a grf could be used statically would surpass any level of coputability
14:14<frosch123>it would also burry any option to ever make a select static newgrf gui :p
14:14<V453000>yeah that would also be nice
14:15<frosch123>imho a newgrf than can be static or non-static via parameter is arcane shit
14:15<frosch123>don't do that
14:15<V453000>the concept doesn't sound that horrible to me
14:15<V453000>but k
14:17<V453000>I just hate the idea of add-ons because standalone they are usually completely useless
14:17<V453000>I guess I can make it less useless
14:17<V453000>but still
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>that is fine, just drop the idea of being static.
14:18<V453000>...
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>or drop the idea of providing functionality
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>can't have both.
14:18<V453000>I will probably just release two standalone functional versions
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>there is a reason why opengfx and opengfx+ are different things
14:24<V453000>yeah I cba writing fuckload of code just to make a base set
14:28<V453000>admittedly, assuming that someone would actually want to write such a thing later after I release it, maybe it makes more sense indeed to have base grf + add on
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to provide functionality, you also will want to split off vehicles, industries, etc. which are fundamentally different
14:30<V453000>obviously
14:30<Samu>testing NoCAB on a 2Kx4K map, already got through that part where it would crash
14:31<Samu>map generated 6400 towns
14:31<Samu>but, who knows...
14:31<Samu>I'll keep watching
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14:54<Samu>I'm chaning server port from 3979 to 3980 while the server is running, but appears to make no effect. Must i restart the server?
14:54<Samu>changing*
14:55<Samu>i can't see it listed
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17:36*Samu slaps Wormnest_ around a bit with a large fishbot
17:38<Samu>wormai is having a difficult start
17:40<Samu>tell me the best values for airport stuff, plz
17:40<Samu>i've set it to 2000, 500, 4000
17:41<Samu>i guess 4000 distance was a bad idea
17:49<Samu>well, I started a 6th AI, there's 2 worms now
17:49<Samu>500, 150, 1500 vs 2000, 500, 4000
17:55<Wormnest_>Well it really depends on the date you start and size of map
17:55<Samu>1950
17:55<Samu>map is 4kx2k
17:56<Wormnest_>I guess 500 for minimum town size is ok
17:56<Wormnest_>with that map size and number of towns minimum distance I would guess maybe 1000, not more
17:57<Samu>1000 minimum distance? but max value is 500
17:58<Wormnest_>maximum doesn matter as much but in 1950 planes will have trouble to go 4000 tiles in a reasonable time
17:59<Wormnest_>where do you see max 500
17:59<Samu>minimum distance between airports, it's capped to 500
17:59<Samu>in AI parameters
18:00<Wormnest_>ah I see, haven´t touched that part in a long time lol
18:00<Wormnest_>At that time 2kx2k maps were the max size
18:00<Samu>plane speed is 1/4
18:01<Wormnest_>I guess a min/max distance of 500, 2000, for plane speed I have never tested anything but 1/4
18:02<Samu>475 km/h /4 = 118 km/h
18:03<Samu>let me check NoCAB aircraft stuff, he's usually good at calculating optimal distance
18:03<Wormnest_>I´m planning on removing those settings sometime they´re too dependent on other factors
18:04<Wormnest_>Yea thatś what I want to do too + maybe a prefernce for short, medium or longer routes
18:05<Samu>airport 1 coordinates: 2897 x 1774
18:06<Samu>airport 2 coordinates: 2728 x 2039
18:06<Samu>what's the distance here?
18:07<Wormnest_>lol I´m not an expert of that kinda math
18:07<Samu>434?
18:08<Samu>gonna try a 3rd WormAI with a 400 for max distance
18:09<Wormnest_>on a 512x512 map I usually use 100 or 150 for min and 1000 for max
18:11<Samu>the first wormai is doing so bad that the 2nd one already ahead
18:12<Samu>killing the first then
18:13<Samu>nocab crashed... took too long to save t.t
18:13<Wormnest_>That early there´s probably not enough towns large enough
18:13<Samu>someone joined game t.t
18:13<Wormnest_>not me, my own ai game is still running
18:14<Samu>sometimes i wish i could strip apart the save feature
18:15<Samu>can't really trust NoCAB for multiplayer games
18:15<Samu>it can't save
18:16<Wormnest_>I did have a look at the Bleeding Edge version one time but didn´t fix it yet
18:16<Wormnest_>though I think I fixed another bug there
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18:18<Samu>why is that AIs got to save while a client is joining? do they really have to?
18:18<Samu>clients aren't running the script
18:18<Samu>they don't need the AI save
18:18<Wormnest_>I have no idea I always use single player
18:19<Wormnest_>My WormAI has a savegame loading bug too which if fixed in the development version
18:19<+glx>Samu: AI saves when server saves
18:20<+glx>because openttd tell them it's time to save
18:22<Samu>must find where in the code that happens
18:23<Samu>i believe they don't need to save in this case
18:24<Wormnest_>no idea
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18:35<Samu>gonna test
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18:47<Samu>okay, AI not saving his data
18:47<Samu>saveempty
18:48<Samu>yeah, I'm in
18:48<Samu>there seems to be no issues, apparently, gonna build a bit of stuff
18:55<Samu>looks good
18:55<Samu>i've built stuff as the server, and as the client that joined
18:56<Samu>might need some more testing to be really sure
18:58<Samu>the other day, glx you told me clients that join a server that runs the AI can't save their data on the savegame
18:59<+glx>yes they discard it on load
18:59<Samu>seems like when a client joins, the same could be applied here
19:00<Samu>but it's the server performing the save now, maybe with a bool flag, something akin to what I did with faster server patch
19:00<Samu>faster autosave patchP
19:00<Samu>brb, gonna try this bool thing
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19:48<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pmzpxdfat
19:48<Samu>what u think?
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19:57<Samu>seems to be doing it as intended
19:57<Samu>if i manually save the game, the AIs are saving their data, if a client joins, the AIs aren't saving their data
19:58<Samu>and boy NoCAB stalls the save process for 20 seconds... poor client gets network game connection lost
19:59<Samu>autosaves better keep saving AI data
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20:31<Samu>just added this "feature" to my patch http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1168837#p1168837
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20:32<Samu>and now, cyas goodnight
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---Logclosed Sun May 22 00:00:26 2016