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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-22

---Logopened Sun May 22 00:00:26 2016
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01:43<@Alberth>o/
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05:04<frosch123>moin mammals
05:05<@Alberth>moin
05:05<@Alberth>most mammals are still asleep today :)
05:10<frosch123>yes, i found an item on my todo list, that i already did !
05:14<@Alberth>ha, you're faster than yourself :)
05:15<@Alberth>btw, slowly working on the scenario tar format, save is somewhat working currently
05:16<frosch123>nice :)
05:16<@Alberth>the proposal is still missing a lot though, eg no idustries at all
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06:17<Samu>hi
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06:29<Samu>hi, Wormnest
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06:30<Samu>i tried WormAI using only trains, it cannot start because of loan/money issue
06:30<Wormnest>hi
06:30<Samu>can't build station, i check his money, he's in negative balance, but it could ask for loan
06:30<Wormnest>Hm, I think I may have fixed that in the development version
06:30<Samu>oki
06:31<Wormnest>You could try the dev version its on openttdcoop and bitucket
06:31<Wormnest>Has some other improvements too
06:33<Samu>i'm testing 15 wormais together
06:33<Samu>but with different parameters
06:34<Samu>on a giant map
06:35<Samu>too early to come with any conclusion
06:35<Wormnest>ah cool
06:37<Samu>if you want to obs, try joining the game
06:37<Samu>hopefully your AIs save fast
06:38<Wormnest>though ai parameters only dont make the difference
06:38<Wormnest>well Iḿ still running my own game so maybe another time
06:38<Samu>ok
06:39<Wormnest>e.g. starting WormAI in 1930 the only train vesion will perform better than air only
06:39<Wormnest>but in 1980 it´s probably reversed
06:40<Wormnest>Maximum number of planes and trains and other settings are also relevant ofcourse
06:40<Samu>i've set 5000,5000,5000,5000 vehicles
06:40<Samu>started in 1950
06:41<Samu>testing on temperate tileset this time
06:42<Samu>train physics are realistic accel with default on the rest
06:43<Samu>let me recheck
06:44<Samu>no disasters for airplanes
06:45<Samu>allow town control level noise for airports
06:45<Samu>difficulty settings profile for AI is hard
06:45<Samu>250k ops
06:45<Samu>construction speed very fast
06:46<Wormnest>Well then in the end air only should win over train only
06:47<Samu>inflation is off
06:47<Wormnest>unless using a NewGRF that makes airplanes more expensive and/or trains more profitable
06:47<Samu>no, i don't use newgrfs, i hate that
06:48<Wormnest>ofcourse turning infrastructure costs on will make the air only go bankrupt pretty fast
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06:48<Samu>infrastructure costs is off
06:48<Wormnest>probably even the train only ones since I don´t really take that into consideration
06:49<Samu>im also not using cargo distribution stuff
06:50<Samu>500k max loan, no breakdowns
06:50<Samu>maybe i should start testing ais with breakdowns on
06:50<Samu>but meh...
06:54<Wormnest>Those shouldn´t matter especially when testing only 1 type of ai
06:55<Wormnest>Although airplanes that fly longer distances will take a lot longer to arrive
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07:19<Samu>hey Wormnest, since you test AIs, what do you think of my patch?
07:19<Samu>what does it need?
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07:31<Wormnest>Sorry haven´t really looked at it and haven´t compiled OpenTTD in several years
07:34<Wormnest>All slots always being configurable and being able to open readme etc sounds useful
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07:34<Wormnest>Don´t know if the status icons are really needed
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07:37<Eearslya>frosch123: Gasp, like..4 months later the issue I fixed is finally closed XD
07:37<frosch123>lucky you, others were 12 months old :p
07:39<Eearslya>I should hang out here more often and see if there are other little things I can fix
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07:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27580 /trunk/src (articulated_vehicles.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2016-05-22 13:45:03 +0200 )
07:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6395]: Set date of last service on construction also for wagons and articulated parts.
07:51<_dp_>hi, just remembered one small thing that always bugged me.
07:51<_dp_>station "built" date in info window is actually date of last modification
07:52<_dp_>is that really indentional? coz I find real built date to be much more useful
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07:52<frosch123>it is for date-dependent graphics
07:52<frosch123>they shall update when overbuilding the station
07:53<_dp_>ah, ok
07:53<_dp_>built date is useful for moderating in mp (stealing and such), so would be nice to have it too
07:54<frosch123>no idea, i do not even know whether there is only a single date, or individual dates for station parts
07:55<_dp_>single
07:57<_dp_>hm, does that mean whole station will update graphics when sigle piece is added I wonder
07:57<frosch123>i am sure someone thought about that in 2006 :p
07:57<frosch123>and then made it like ttdp did
07:58<_dp_>%)
07:58<frosch123>i am no big fan of using many station graphics, so i have no idea what "features" are actually used
07:59<frosch123>i wondered about making the ai callback for selecting station graphics also accessible to humans :p
08:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27581 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2016-05-22 14:00:36 +0200 )
08:00<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6461]: Button size computation in script configuration window. (adf88)
08:02<@Alberth>I once discussed with andy to move station graphics mostly to newobjects
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08:03<@Alberth>it would need probably to have some communication to the object for displaying cargo graphics
08:04<frosch123>but... that would break station walking! all cheaters are doomed
08:06<_dp_>don't use station grfs either, can't even think of one that uses that date
08:06<frosch123>i am sure there is if you look into the realism bs :)
08:06<_dp_>wait, what will break walking?xD
08:07<frosch123>_dp_: making non-track station tiles not count to the station area
08:08<frosch123>so people are punished by having to place tiles with track inbetween houses
08:08<_dp_>frosch123, what are non-track tiles? newgrf stuff?
08:09<frosch123>yes, when building stations with newgrf stations, there are some graphics for platforms with track
08:09<frosch123>and some graphics for buildings or mineral piles for tiles, which then have no track
08:10<_dp_>also walking is about moving station sign, don't see why can't be done with track tiles, aren't you talking about spreading?
08:10<frosch123>some of them look like regular town houses, so you can station walk without anyone noticing a graphical disturbance
08:10<frosch123>_dp_: yeah, station walking and spreading is the same for me
08:11<_dp_>ah, no, they are completely different :p
08:11<_dp_>spreading is getting more coverage area, I usually do with adding bus stations
08:12<_dp_>walking is moving station sign, usually for keeping authority
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: originally, station walking was a method for constructing disconnected station parts, had nothing to do about station sign
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>(in fact, you could not move the station sign at all)
08:13<_dp_>ah, ok, I'm relatively new to openntd, now there is ctrl for that xD
08:13<frosch123>yes, there was a time when the station sign position was not updated when removing parts of the station
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>(so part of station walking involved constructing the station sign at the furthest point available, and then "walking" the station towards the acceptance area of the cargo)
08:14<frosch123>so you could have the platform and the sign on opposing sites of the map
08:14<Flygon>Thooooose were the days
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>the "walking" part of the name probably came from the fact that you (usually) alternated between building a truck stop and a bus stop
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>and then removing the other one
08:15<_dp_>oh snap, and it didn't even check station size for sign?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>as you could only have one rectangular train station, one bus stop, and one truck stop per station
08:17<_dp_>yeah, I see how that's "walking", good that's fixed)
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how many people actually abused the station-sign-outside-station "feature"
08:21<_dp_>Now only way to "cheat" with walking I know of is for CB that checks station's "nearest" town
08:22<V453000>if newobjects could show cargo AND tracks could be laid under them, it would work perfectly fine
08:22<@Alberth>the discussion was only cargo graphics
08:23<@Alberth>and all the non-platform tiles, buildings etc
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: how would an object know about cargos?
08:24<@Alberth>it gets told about cargoes at nearby station?
08:24<V453000>I am not saying I know the technical solution, I just say those things are necessary to make them replace station tile graphics
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that sounds horrible.
08:24<@Alberth>well, it mostly started by my comment that the office buildings etc that don't need to be station tiles
08:26<@Alberth>not sure how horrible it is, the current "all platform tiles show the same" isn't that useful either
08:26<@Alberth>although that has nothing to do with being station tiles, perhaps
08:26<V453000>elyon has some amazing functionalities coming for stations, NML for stations, and CATS
08:26<V453000>shame all of that is lost
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's just NewGRF coders being lazy and picking "most cargo" instead of a specific (or random) one
08:27<V453000>I can try to contact her but I doubt it will be brought anywhere
08:27<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I'd really like to know which cargoes a station has, besides one
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, maybe the tools available are not optimal
08:27<@Alberth>likely :)
08:30<V453000>nfo is just other world
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>idea: sort cargos from smallest to largest, and sum up the numbers until you reach a (potentially randomized) threshold, then use the cargo that put you over the threshold
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause>needs some scaling
08:32<@Alberth>does that even need sorting?
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think sorting helps
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08:33<Eddi|zuHause>if you specifically want some tiles to show "rare" cargos, you give them a low threshold manually
08:34<@Alberth>your treshold just points at a random point in the sequence, more cargo of one kind means it catches more points
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if the threshold were completely random
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes it might be not, then some more specific behaviour might make sense
08:35<@Alberth>fair enough
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>next problem would be with mixing bulk/piece cargos. some tiles might only want to show bulk, and the others only piece
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>you either need to filter out the cargos before making the sum, or you get "invalid" cargos which would then show empty tiles
08:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: idea: show random cargo amounts that slowly change throughout the year
08:39<frosch123>also looks nice with full load
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'd use the monthly throughput instead of the currently waiting cargo for that
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and while at it, the thresholds for showing low/high amount of cargo should be randomized throughout the station, so not all tiles switch simultaneously
08:42<frosch123>do grfs even use that?
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
08:44<V453000>we wanted to use it in CATS
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08:49<Samu>svn updating is complaining about a "Conflicted" action
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>ISR definitely has small and big piles
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>and i think even NewStations has small and big number of passengers
08:50<Samu>something in ai_gui.cpp is "Conflicted" t.t, i'm not used to this
08:50<frosch123>i think i overinterpreted your statement
08:50<frosch123>i thought you meant the small/large threshold
08:50<frosch123>but you actually only mean the "load amount"
08:51<Samu>brb, gonna revert my patch stuff
08:52<Samu>ah, it updated everything fine now
08:53<Samu>there's a conflict probably because of my editing of ai_gui.cpp
08:53<Samu>and there's a "merged"
08:53<Samu>saveload.cpp - "merged"
08:54<Samu>sorry, i'm asking dumb questions, first time I had openttd trunk revisions affecting files I've also edited
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09:03<@Alberth>I am sure whatever gui tool you use for the VCS, its manual explains updates and conflicts
09:04<Samu>Rejected patch hunks for 'ai_gui.cpp'
09:04<Samu>i use tortoise svn
09:05<Samu>this was rejected - https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pn4tdn6kn
09:05<Samu>let's see
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09:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: now i'm confused what you mean
09:17<frosch123>vehicles map cargo-amount to loading-stage-graphics with a linear mapping
09:17<frosch123>stations do that with a linear spline with an additional moveable control point in the middle
09:18<frosch123>the first spline segment refers to "little cargo", the second one to "lots cargo"
09:22<@Alberth>I think the point is that different tiles should "little" and "lots" for different amounts
09:22<@Alberth>so you don't get this station-wide switching between them
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think you're using "linear spline" wrong here
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>where it's more like a "stair function"
09:38<frosch123>i think of it as a function composed of a spline and a stair applied afterwards
09:38<frosch123>but well, the point is, for stations there are two step sizes
09:52<Samu>inconsistent line endings... what?
10:01<Samu>i don't understand why tortoisesvn is not allowing me to patch
10:01<Samu>what's inconsistent line endings?
10:02<Samu>do i have to write manually into visual studio?
10:02<Samu>t.t
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10:20<@Alberth>it means the line termination of some lines is different from the other lines
10:20<@Alberth>typically you're mixing unix line termination with windows line termination
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10:31<Samu>gah, already hurried to make a patch without seeing the end result
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10:32<Samu>i'm really newb to all this
10:32<Samu>visual studio autostyle always getting in the way
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10:41<Samu>i've edited by hand now
10:41<@Alberth>is windows ever not in the way?
10:41<Samu>copy each line individually from svn, then paste on visual studio
10:41<Samu>then pay attention to the autostyle
10:42<Samu>if i copy multiple lines from svn to visual studio, then save on visual studio, when i try to create a patch on tortoisesvn, it would complain about end of line
10:43<Samu>i blame tortoisesvn
10:43<Samu>their text editor looks a bit rushed
10:44<Samu>notepad++ doesn't do this
10:45<Samu>i can write entire code lines in notepad++, then copy from it, paste on visual studio, save, then tortoisesvn still creates patches without complaining
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>https://fts.to/wcf/images/photos/thumbnails/medium/photo-18973-f9d6c571.jpg
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11:35<andythenorth>CHIPS uses the little/lots thresholds
11:36<andythenorth>station cargo sprites are a BAD FEATURE though
11:36<@Alberth>o/
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11:40<andythenorth>I cannot think of any plausible rule to distribute the waiting cargos across multiple tiles
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11:41<@Alberth>to see all the cargoes waiting at the station, and to some extent, the relative quantity
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's "reason", not "rule" :p
11:42<andythenorth>:)
11:42<@Alberth>ah, nvm then :)
11:43<@Alberth>random selecting as you suggested could work
11:43<@Alberth>except "empty" would be nice to have too
11:43<@Alberth>but not that important
11:46<andythenorth>I wondered about round-robin from N tile
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but wouldn't that cause loads of empty tiles, because you can't adjust the number of cargos to try?
11:47<andythenorth>yeah
11:47<andythenorth>and it would look hotch-potch
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that means
11:49<andythenorth>seems google images doesn’t either
11:50<andythenorth>or I don’t
11:51<andythenorth>anyway, it would be a mess
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12:08<andythenorth>provide a unique tile for each cargo, let the player decide what to show?
12:16<openbu|2>Hello
12:21<@Alberth>that would be a lot of work
12:21<@Alberth>for each station select the tiles with the correct graphics
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause>the "easiest" solution for mixed cargos is to provide a tile for each cargo and let the user choose
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12:34<andythenorth>refittable tiles?
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13:35*NGC3982 mixes Eddis cargo
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27582 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-05-22 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 18 changes by Absay
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15:11<_dp_>wish there was code to get back previous color in strings
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>there is not. live with it or change it.
15:19<@Rubidium>_dp_: no need to wish
15:19<@Rubidium>just look at negative amounts of currency
15:24<_dp_>Rubidium, what do you mean?
15:38<@Alberth>your wish got granted :)
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16:00<_dp_>not quite, there seems to be special character for that, but no actual string code to use
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>so add a string code?
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17:24<_dp_>damn, I hate stupid services that think they can freeze my pc for 15 mins to do their useless crap :(
17:24<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, it's a trivial one-line change
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17:30<_dp_>also I think I found a way for server to crash client while messing with those special codes xD
17:30<_dp_>not much of an issue ofc
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>err... "server crashing clients" is ALWAYS an issue.
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18:28<_dp_>even if it takes patched server? also just uncatched exception so no exploiting it
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>servers can never be trusted
18:30<_dp_>well, strings compilation throws when it encounters invalid utf, so if server manages to send one client will probably crash
18:30<_dp_>in gs strings I mean
18:46<_dp_>hm, not sure how but looks like it doesn't crash
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18:49<_dp_>darn exceptions are hard to follow :(
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18:58<_dp_>ok, savegame loading calls str_validate, so everything's fine, nvm
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19:20<Samu>oh, i have had the opposite happening to me[23:19] <Eddi|zuHause> err... "server crashing clients" is ALWAYS an issue.
19:21<Samu>There are rare occurences that a client crashes the server
19:21<Samu>usually happens with gs running in the server
19:21<Samu>he joins, server crashes for no apparent reason
19:35<Samu>ah, i remember, an "Access violation on free ", while doing memory operation stuff
19:35<Samu>anyone here?
19:56<Samu>cyas goodnight
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---Logclosed Mon May 23 00:00:27 2016