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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-23

---Logopened Mon May 23 00:00:27 2016
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03:27<Wolf01>o/
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03:50<Wolf01>o/
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07:25<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:31<Wolf01>o/
07:36<Wolf01>http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=561584 :o
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09:16<Mazur>Hm, in the new Toyland to Mars you can;t upgrade concrete bridges to suspension, you have to demolish and replace.
09:17<V453000>new toyland to marS?
09:17<V453000>is there a new one? :d
09:18<Mazur>And now I suddenly can.
09:18<Mazur>new to me.
09:18<Mazur>8.0 grfpack.
09:19<Mazur>new to me.
09:20<Mazur>And I still have issues with r27534 thinking one i7 CPU is not enough to run it.
09:20<Mazur>On PS>
09:24<Mazur>1.6.0 runs fine on Stable.
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09:29<supermop>Wolf01: nice
09:33<Wolf01>we have 2 or 3 guys which are building a lot of italian trains, I've seen them the last weekend and they are really well done
09:40<supermop>neat
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09:51<V453000>Mazur: I don't see how 8.0 grf pack is NEW XD
09:53<Mazur>When it is something I just found out about yesterday and doewnloaded it then, is was new to me. So there.
09:53<V453000>XD
09:55<Mazur>}:-ꝧ
10:04<supermop>can toyland use tropic climate code?
10:04<V453000>what do you mean by code?
10:04<supermop>like, towns can only grow on carpet, not wood floor>
10:05<V453000>it doesn't have snow/desert so idk
10:05<supermop>-_-
10:05<V453000>but temperate neither
10:05<V453000>so what works in temperate, should work in toyland
10:05<V453000>from that logic :D
10:07<supermop>hmmm
10:08<V453000>to me toyland is just a different condition for replace
10:08<V453000>plus cutsey shit like different industries, but that's everywhere
10:08<V453000>which is why I totally don't get why does someone not support toyland in their newgrf
10:11<supermop>huh?
10:12<V453000>if you make a newgrf which defines -thing-
10:12<V453000>it will work the same way in all climates including toyland
10:13<V453000>so if some newgrfs don't work in toyland, it is because they explicitly made it not work there for no reason
10:13<V453000>of course there is shit like cargo graphics etc, but if you are really lazy about it you can just let cargo classes do the magic with normal cargo graphics
10:21<supermop>hmmm
10:27<supermop>if people are so hung up on 'serious' graphics looking out of place in toyland, why not cobble together some non serious sprites?
10:29<V453000>that's extra effort, I totally understand people don't want to make 'weird' stuff
10:29<V453000>but removing functionality from toyland just because I don't like that climate or I think it doesn't fit, is bad
10:43<supermop>brio style building would be easy to make
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10:44<supermop>render a plain block with a beechwood texture and gloss red roof, black line windows
10:44<supermop>a brio steel mill sprite would be even easier
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10:45<supermop>if i ever get a working computer at home again maybe i'll make andy some unsolicited brio firs sprites
10:45<V453000>xD
10:51<Wolf01>oh, brio... cool
10:51<Wolf01>also, do they have turntables now? O_o http://friday-ad.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/image/15102501_15102600/universe-of-imagination-wooden-brio-style-train-table-with-sound-effects-trains-and-extra-airport-15102531-6.jpg
10:53<Wolf01>when I was a kid, I didn't even had the rails
10:54<V453000>channel derailed
10:54<V453000>gg
10:54<Wolf01>still trains
10:55<V453000>0.13 hype!
10:56<Wolf01>please... this is too much, I had to play fallout 4 to be able to leave factorio from my mind until 0.13
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10:57<Wolf01>o/
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11:03<@Alberth>hi hi
11:03<V453000>XD
11:04<V453000>0.13 will make you never leave again
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11:10<@Alberth>:O
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11:39<Samu>hi
11:40<Samu>i have a sketchy idea what to do with the Debug window now
11:40<Samu>Settings button and Reload AI button are both removed
11:40<Samu>reload ai is re-located to the ai config window instead
11:40<V453000>I am searching for ideas what to do with the BRIX bulldozed land
11:40<Samu>settings is already there too
11:40<V453000>many holes just doesn't work
11:41<V453000>[1 hole per tile doesn't work, it tiles horribly]
11:41<V453000>in more bulldozed areas it is 100% invisible what the terrain looks like
11:41<V453000>smaller holes perhaps?
11:41<Samu>on the other window, the Close button in ai config button is replaced with the reload AI button
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>why holes and not just a flat colour?
11:42<Samu>AI Debug window is basically just an AI log
11:42<Samu>what do you guys think'
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11:43<@Alberth>Stakes at the corners?
11:43<Samu>this way, there's only 1 way to access AI Parameters
11:43<Samu>instead of 2
11:43<@Alberth>hmm, must be flat probably :(
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>black/yellow stripes
11:43<Alkel_U3>hole to a stary field dimension from edge to edge?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>"under construction"
11:44<Samu>eh, i see u guys are busy, be back later
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>(i have actually no clue how BRIX looks currently.)
11:45<@Alberth>red/white marker tape along the edge?
11:45<@Alberth>some small rubble ?
11:46<@Alberth>tracks from the bulldozer?
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11:48<supermop>V453000: just slightly bumpy?
11:48<V453000>hm
11:49<V453000>interesting ideas, lets' see
11:49<V453000>will probably try smaller holes first
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, from a gameplay point of view, bulldozing is supposed to make the tile flat, not dig holes in it.
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11:51<@Alberth>sort of inverted rubble :)
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>also, holes don't magically fill themselves when grass grows over it
11:55<Alkel_U3>perhaps if the holes had giant earthworms in them, it would look more like they're gonna fill it?
11:56<Alkel_U3>Maybe it would look better if the holes were sunk from edge to edge, full of rubble and thus tile well - if you insist on the holes
12:00<@Alberth>Samu: AI debug being AI log sounds good, single purpose for each window is good idea. breakpoint does stay there I hope?
12:00<Samu>yes, it stays
12:00<@Alberth>you do need to dig out the foundations too :)
12:01<Samu>foundations?
12:03<@Alberth>underground support for the wall, so it doesn't sink into the ground over the years
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12:05<Samu>oh, that's not for me, sorry
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12:13<@Alberth>:)
12:19<Samu>hmm i can't exactly eliminate the Close button, it is being re-used for the Close button in the download AI Content window
12:21<Samu>network_content_gui.cpp, line 1021
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12:21<Samu>with a misleading name STR_AI_SETTINGS_CLOSE
12:22<Wolf01>just add a new one
12:23<Samu>i see, should I rename this one?
12:23<Wolf01>no, didn't you remember what happened last time you tried to rename a string?
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12:24<Samu>hmm, ok, won't rename
12:24<Samu>can't recall for sure
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12:28<supermop>no andy to give me more freelance sprites
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13:08<Samu>it appears I don't have to add anything, i just renamed the widget
13:08<Samu>WID_AIC_CLOSE to WID_AIC_RELOAD
13:09<Samu>re-using the ReloadAI strings
13:10<Samu>tooltip too
13:11<Samu>there's still the X at the top left corner of the window to close it
13:11<Samu>nothing's missing
13:12<@Alberth>close is a weird button
13:12<Samu>I put Reload AI there
13:12<Samu>sec, let me grab a screenshot
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13:15<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/tXPxyKR.png
13:16<Samu>screenshot feature doesn't capture mouse cursor
13:16<Samu>but it was pointing towards Reload AI
13:17<Samu>Settings are accessible
13:18<Samu>thing I'm done for the AI Config window now, moving on to AI Debug
13:18<Samu>think*
13:18<Samu>it's code is shrinking
13:18<Samu>its*
13:19<@Alberth>AI config is a weird window, I don't like it, for some reason
13:21<Samu>:(
13:21<Samu>there's something i'd like to do later on
13:21<Samu>drag and drop
13:22<Samu>drag configs from a slot to another, instead of move up/down
13:22<Samu>but i assume it's going to be hard
13:24<frosch123>hola mammals
13:24<@Alberth>not your change I dislike, the window itself just seems weird compared to others
13:24<Wolf01>speaks the frog
13:24<@Alberth>hoi hoi
13:24<Wolf01>o/
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13:54<Samu>hmm how do i manage hotkeys correctly?
13:55<Samu> Hotkey('S', "settings", WID_AID_SETTINGS),
13:55<Samu>this is to be removed
13:55<Samu>or at least, moved to the other window
13:59<Samu>i never bothered with hotkeys, must check how this works
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14:02<andythenorth>o/
14:05<supermop>yo
14:07<supermop>how does andy feel about secret brio sprites for firs industries
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14:08<supermop>so that when a certain economy is used in toyland climate, the steel mills etc look like beechwood blocks etc
14:09<andythenorth>lot of work :)
14:09<andythenorth>like…a lot
14:11<supermop>heh yep
14:12<frosch123>V453000: http://www.vickyliebtdich.at/wp-content/uploads/lego-haufen.jpg <- bare land could also just be a pile of random brix
14:12<supermop>frosch123: i want to lay in that pile
14:13<V453000>._.
14:13<frosch123>http://freshideen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Lego-Spiele-m%C3%BCllhaufen.jpg <- though choosing different pieces can result in different looks
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14:14<supermop>gruesome hand-truck accident?
14:15<V453000>I might want to rename brix cause it isn't lego
14:17<frosch123>name it something ending with "Craft" then
14:19<Samu>STR_AI_CONFIG_HUMAN_PLAYER :Human Company - this string is no longer in use, what do I do?
14:19<Samu>I no longer have a use for it
14:19<frosch123>recycle the letters
14:19<andythenorth>XRIB
14:20<Samu>I'd delete the string, but i have problems then with lang files
14:20<Samu>so... hmm i dunno what to do
14:21<V453000>why craft?
14:21<V453000>AssCraft?
14:21<frosch123>because of other games with voxels
14:21<frosch123>cubicles and stuff :)
14:21<V453000>ah
14:22<V453000>fuck minecraft in particular :>
14:22<frosch123>we need 16x zoom in sprites, so you can see little yetis sitting in cubicles
14:23*andythenorth thinks we need something
14:23<andythenorth>maybe a break from openttd? o_O
14:24<V453000>revolutionary idea
14:26*andythenorth was sick for a few days, gained some perspective :P
14:26<Alkel_U3>.13 will surely take care of that naturaly
14:27<Alkel_U3>and if that's not enough, did you notice that new version of Dwarf Fortress is out?
14:30<andythenorth>I have never played DF
14:30<andythenorth>I was told to stay away from it
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14:31<Alkel_U3>wise advice
14:32<Alkel_U3>it's too late for me, tho
14:33<V453000>:D
14:34<V453000>0.13 hype!
14:34<Wormnest>Samu: removing settings and reload AI button will be very inconvenient for someone doing AI development
14:35<Wormnest>from the debug log I mean
14:35<Samu>hmm, I see
14:35<Wormnest>I use those buttons a lot when working on my AI, always having to open the other dialog would be a PITA
14:36<Samu>I can leave them on both windowses then
14:37<Wormnest>In fact I even think the forum link should be there too to make it easier to report a bug
14:38<Wormnest>Now when an AI crashes you see a link at the bottom report the bug here but you can´t click that link
14:39<Samu>that's a good idea, I had thought of something similar
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14:41<Samu>having two windows doing the same as the other is a bit complicated, I'd like to have both useful
14:43<Wormnest>That´s certainly true
14:43<Samu>there are some issues with the settings button with the way I've changed the stuff on the config window
14:44<Wormnest>Maybe a button that opens the config window from the debug window then?
14:45<Samu>if I could relocate the settings all to one window, I'd actually prefer it to be on the config, because that window is also dealing with the possibility of 2 scripts in the same slot
14:45<Wormnest>Still that would mean a lot of extra clicks and mouse movements to reload your ai
14:45<Wormnest>But the debug window is not very useful for most users
14:45<Samu>2 configurations, not scripts
14:46<Samu>there's only 1 instance running at a time, the config of that slot however, there's a "before" and a "now"
14:46<Samu>clicking settings on the ai debug does create some confusion
14:46<Wormnest>Why do you need a before
14:46<supermop>whats new in antelope andythenorth ?
14:47<Samu>imagine your ai crashed
14:47<Samu>you have change AI button enabled
14:47<Samu>you change to other AI
14:47<Samu>"now" settings is for the AI you just selected
14:47<Samu>but the AI debug still shows the log of the AI that crashed
14:48<Samu>and the settings are of the new "now" settings
14:48<Samu>"reload ai" will load the new "now" settings ai
14:49<Wormnest>That sounds like bugs that should be fixed but not the reason for two settings
14:49<Wormnest>but I probably overlook some details you know better
14:50<Samu>issue is that there's 2 windowses that access the same 1 AI settings window :(
14:51<Samu>I thought it would be smart to get rid of that one on the debug, but... i guess not
14:51<Wormnest>Well it certainly would be inconvenient for ai developing
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14:57<Samu>i don't know how to access the "before" settings
14:57<Samu>it's something I had in mind too
14:58<Samu>these "before" settings are also not saved in savegames
14:58<Samu>:(
14:58<andythenorth>supermop: nothing new since last week :)
14:58<andythenorth>was ‘occupied'
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15:48<andythenorth>hmm
15:48<andythenorth>maybe FIRS is ‘done'
15:50<andythenorth>o_O
15:51<andythenorth>CHIPS is a few hours from ‘done’
15:51<andythenorth>Road Hog is a week from ‘done’
15:57-!-rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:57<Samu>settings and reload are back
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15:58<Samu>i have thought of hiding them unless gui.ai_developer_tools == true
15:59<Samu>what u think Wormnest
16:00<supermop>andythenorth: done is good
16:00<andythenorth>‘done’ means I need to find a new hobby
16:00<supermop>don't bog down is a project with no end in site
16:00-!-kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
16:00<andythenorth>but it might be about time
16:01<supermop>heqs does its job fine, looks good, etc
16:01<Wormnest>Well the debug window is mostly used by ai/gs devs so I´m not sure if that is very useful
16:01<supermop>no need to revisit
16:01<supermop>firs 1 is a finish product,
16:01<andythenorth>I’m not learning anything new anymore about newgrfs
16:01<supermop>and if you like all the economies in firs 2, then that can be done too
16:02<andythenorth>I’ve drawn all the pixels I ever want to, and then some more on top
16:03<andythenorth>learnt all I’m going to learn about this kind of code
16:03<andythenorth>made enough game design mistakes that I learnt something
16:06<V453000>if I didn't use 3D, I wouldn't have made anything at all in the last couple years
16:06<V453000>cause that's the only thing that I learn
16:09<V453000>but I am still interested in making a nice set of trains in blender, and putting together a graphical replacement - because that deals with all kinds of isometric bullshit issues, which is good to practice
16:09<V453000>exactly the kind of masochism that is in every sprite based game
16:09<andythenorth>all the bullshit issues are just demoralising me these days :)
16:09<andythenorth>every time I go look at a set, I find more alignment or length problems
16:09<andythenorth>gets boring
16:09<V453000>I don't mean that
16:10<V453000>those are just technical trash
16:10<V453000>and that's annoying indeed
16:10<andythenorth>you mean the intrinsic problem of making dimetric look good?
16:10<V453000>but I mean more like general projection problems
16:10<V453000>yeah kind of
16:10<V453000>add 141% scaling of some shit, add fake height of hills, add other shitty things like that
16:11<V453000>for example the whole system of coasts and hills is it's own shit
16:11<V453000>not even mentioning making tracks tile nicely, AND work
16:11*andythenorth does not even want to think about it :P
16:11<V453000>I might be weird, but I kind of do
16:11<andythenorth>2D game anyone? o_O
16:12<@Alberth>/me does some simple strategy game with hexagons
16:12<andythenorth>plays or codes?
16:12<Alkel_U3>completely 2D? like... Railroad Tycoon?
16:13<andythenorth>more like Chuckie Egg I think :)
16:13<@Alberth>code
16:13<V453000> /me does some simple industry game with totally insane projection and square grid :)
16:13<andythenorth>Alberth: not enough things to do? o_O
16:13<@Alberth>apparently not :p
16:13<@Alberth>it's not going fast :)
16:14<@Alberth>python2 + pygame
16:14<@Alberth>you can barely display a world
16:15<@Alberth>hmm, what about animations a la theme hospital, V ?
16:16<V453000>what is that?
16:16<andythenorth>pygame website is BAD :P
16:16<andythenorth>nvm
16:17<andythenorth>wikipedia page is ok
16:17<V453000>what are their animations specific in?
16:17<@Alberth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bj8BHdQZj0
16:18<@Alberth>walking staff, patients
16:18<andythenorth>https://inventwithpython.com/pygame/chapter2.html <- reminds me of learning Acorn Basic 26 years ago :P
16:18<@Alberth>treatments
16:18<Alkel_U3>I wanted to pick up on pysdl2 instead of pygame but my procrastination steered me towards Godot so far
16:19<Alkel_U3>it's almost python
16:19<V453000>idontgetit Alkel_U3 , but meh :P
16:19*andythenorth considers some kind of trolling game
16:19<andythenorth>haven’t made one for years
16:19<Alkel_U3>sorry, I'm tired, ca't think well :-)
16:19<andythenorth>Flash is dead, and apparently Unity is a dangerous turkey as well
16:20<Alkel_U3>which means I withdraw from the computer
16:20<V453000>unity be ass?
16:20<andythenorth>alledgly it’s a serious security risk
16:20<andythenorth>*allegedly
16:20<V453000>nice
16:20<andythenorth>[according to some page on the internet]
16:20<V453000>like about every software nowadays? :P
16:20<@Alberth>must be true then :)
16:21<andythenorth>all I want to do is run code on the user’s machine :P
16:21<andythenorth>where’s the problem?
16:21*andythenorth misses the days of flash games with multi-million plays
16:23<andythenorth>no point making a game if it’s hard to distribute
16:23<V453000>just make a mobile game which has angrybirds, sugar, and boobs just to be sure
16:23<V453000>all target audiences covered
16:23<V453000>add trains in case of desperation
16:23<andythenorth>nah, that would need 16+ rating
16:23<andythenorth>need to get kids
16:24<V453000>how do phones even know the age of user
16:24<@Alberth>foo stores know :p
16:26<V453000>foo stores?
16:26<@Alberth>apple, microsoft, whatever
16:26<@Alberth>google
16:27<V453000>:d
16:28<@Alberth>good night
16:28<V453000>n
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16:29*andythenorth wonders what new hobby to have
16:29<Wolf01>ever tried with lego? XD
16:29*andythenorth is selling lego at the moment
16:29<andythenorth>got too much :P
16:30<andythenorth>I think I’ve built everything I wanted to ever :D
16:30<V453000>XD
16:30<V453000>now things are getting serious
16:30<Wolf01>I just added 2 claas xerion and the porsche to the order list of a store for when they'll come out (the store at the exposition I'll attend should do 20% of discount)
16:31<V453000>andythenorth: make openttd rendered grafix with me? :P
16:31<Wolf01>it seem my brain doesn't give a fuck about the lack of space in my bedroom
16:31<Samu>Wormnest: what is the size of the "break on: " text input box? I was thinking moving settings / reload ai down there, to the right of Continue button
16:31<andythenorth>Wolf01: the ‘bad reviews’ on Eurobricks haven’t put you off the porsche? o_O
16:32<andythenorth>sky has fallen in on a few people
16:32<Samu>makes things easier for me to code, cus i'm still a noob
16:32<andythenorth>“OMG the steering angle”
16:33<Wolf01>I don't look at reviews, and usually I don't play with sets (the volvo front loader is the only one I really played with since I restarted to purchase lego sets)
16:34<Wolf01>I buy sets because parts or because they look good
16:34<supermop>andythenorth: gardening?
16:34<Samu>Wormnest: http://i.imgur.com/zR7Bxg3.png
16:34<Samu>looks too small, i might Resize buttons a bit
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16:35<andythenorth>supermop: gardening surprised me, it’s quite fun, never thought I’d enjoy it
16:35<andythenorth>but can’t be arsed this year, too many snails, and going away too much when it’s hot, plants need watered
16:36<Wormnest>Samu: but why move them to the bottom
16:37<Samu>to add them to the same group that enables/disables that last toolbar
16:37<Samu>cus i dunno how else to do
16:38<Samu>nestedwidgets stuff
16:38<Samu>not too familiar with their placement
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16:39<Wormnest>Can´t help you there not familiar with that at all
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16:40<Samu>they are setting a minimum size of 100 pixels for width
16:40<Wormnest>Personally I think they´re easier to access near the ai selection buttons
16:40<Samu>for the text buttons
16:41<Samu>ideally, i would let them stay where they are
16:41<Samu>and have them hidden
16:41<Samu>unless the ai.gui_developer_tools is enabled
16:42<Samu>but i don't know how invisible widgets code works
16:42<Samu>so i figured i'd move them to the bottom
16:43<Samu>avoids me to learn how those invisible widgets work, cus the job is already done for that bottom toolbar
16:44<Wormnest>Well not knowing how something works is not a good reason to change it
16:44<supermop>andythenorth: going away is my favorite hobby
16:45<Wormnest>It means you need to invest to learn how it works for a better solution
16:45<andythenorth>supermop: I probably go less far than you :)
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16:53<andythenorth>bed
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16:57<Samu>ok, gonna learn how this works
16:59<Samu>at least I got something to do instead of staring at nothin g
17:27<Samu>wow, it was easier than i thought
17:27<Samu>it is done, except for the hotkey part
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17:40<Samu>done for the hotkey part too
17:40<Samu>yay! :)
17:41<Samu>if (this->show_break_box) ShowAISettingsWindow(ai_debug_company);
17:41<Samu>show_break_box needs another name
17:42<Samu>show_ai_developer_tools perhaps
17:44<Samu>bool show_ai_dev_tools; ///< Whether the break/debug and the settings/reload boxes are visible.
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17:51<Wolf01>http://motherboard.vice.com/read/new-oculus-drm-cross-platform meh
17:57<Samu>woah, the last Polaris 10 leak is disappointing
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18:28<Gja>Samu AMD never aimed to beat nvidia anyway
18:29<Gja>they can beat them by other means.
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18:36<Samu>I have a feeling Intel isn't sleeping either
18:37<Samu>72 CU on their latest Iris
18:37<Samu>this next AMD event is going to disappoint on both sides, APU and GPU.
18:40<Wolf01>'night
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause><Gja> they can beat them by other means. <-- in the old days the called that "überholen ohne aufzuholen" [overtaking without catching up] and was a propaganda thing how the east would be better than the west
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>by pulling out random statistics like "strawberry production in the east was higher than in the west this year"
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18:50<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: strawberries: the most strategic fruit?
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>(might actually have been "einholen" instead of "aufholen")
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>(means practically the same thing, though)
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19:10<Samu>new version posted
19:10<Samu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1169202#p1169202
19:11<Samu>i better update the screenshot in the main topic, it's a bit outdated
19:12<Gja>:) Eddi|zuHause
19:13<Gja>The CPU's is where the money is... Gpu's is more of a side buisness they have
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19:16<Gja>I believe it is Überholen ohne einzuholen Eddi|zuHause :P
19:17<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/YN8jS4Q.png - pretty
19:17<Samu>can u spot all differences from original ?
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>Gja: well, as far as i can tell, that practice was already over by the time i grew up
19:20<Gja>I kind of find it frustrating Intel have around 70% of the gpu market
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>aren't they focusing on onboard stuff?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>(i've been kinda not following that at all)
19:22<Gja>I think so, but the reason Intel is so dominant is because of the buisness world.
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, that worked for microsoft...
19:23<Gja>It did spawn the intel graphics and have been dominating the market ever since
19:24<Gja>I kind of feel bad for AMD and want them to succeed
19:27<Gja>night everyone
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19:27<Samu>gonna sleep
19:27<Samu>cyas, good night
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---Logclosed Tue May 24 00:00:29 2016