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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-25

---Logopened Wed May 25 00:00:30 2016
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03:59<Alkel_U3>Happy towel day!
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04:08<Wolf01>moin
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05:03<V453000>http://www.rouming.cz/upload/The_Queen_Is_Savage.jpg XD
05:26<Wolf01>:)
05:30<Wolf01>http://www.londonstereo.com/vr-kit.html a bit pricey for a plastic piece, but heh, it's made by Brian May
05:33<V453000>BUT IT'S VR
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05:34<Wolf01>I think "VR" is a bit too misused
05:34<V453000>VR
05:34<Wolf01>this should be VR too http://coolestbusinesscard.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/hologram_business_card_2.jpg
05:34<Wolf01>this even better http://www.holographic.co.uk/card.gif
05:35<Wolf01>You might be able to see a whole movie one day
05:35<V453000>VR VR VR
05:35<Wolf01>0.13
05:36<V453000>HYPE
05:37<Wolf01>the worse part is that mods I use may not work :(
05:37<Wolf01>"new game here I come"
05:38<V453000>achievements don't work with mods anyway
05:38<V453000>so you might just want to make a vanilla game, get achievements, and use mods next time when they update :)
05:38<Wolf01>I'm not interested in achievements
05:38<V453000>yeah meh :P
05:39<Wolf01>look at minecraft, every time I play I must redo all the achievements because they are world based... and I need to make a new world every now and then to test the new features
05:40<Wolf01>so I don't even bother to get the achievements
05:40<V453000>I don't think it is world based in factorio
05:40<V453000>also, fuck minecraft
05:46<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/arKY1ZX_460sv.mp4
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07:44<argoneus>good moning train friends
07:45<V453000>nep
07:45<V453000>noep
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>you could just copy over the achievement file?
07:51<Wolf01>maybe, but I don't give a fuck, it's just annoying when the achievement popups
07:52<Wolf01>it ruins the atmosphere, lol
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08:06<V453000>you haven't even seen the epic achievement animation yet :P
08:08<@peter1138>That minecrift teleport thing seems crap.
08:09<Wolf01>you mean the portal?
08:09<@peter1138>i mean teleporting to move about because of motion sickness
08:11<Wolf01>I don't get it
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08:24<@peter1138>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfH0JpehNzQ about 45 seconds in
08:26<Wolf01>wtf is that absurd thing?
08:26<Wolf01>that's crazy
08:27<V453000>that looks considerably retarded
08:28<V453000>I don't really like VR in general but this is totally dumb :D
08:29<@peter1138>It's there because moving with a controllers makes some people sick.
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08:29<@peter1138>But it breaks the gameplay massively.
08:29<@peter1138>I want some VR stuff but I'm into simulators where you are just sitting, so motion shouldn't be a problem
08:30<V453000>hehe I see your point
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08:31<Wolf01>I played MC with the oculus-dk1 and it already was astounding, then the new ones seem to have "fixed" almost all the motion sickness problems (few lag and more fps)
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08:31<@peter1138>yeah but they switched to these fresnel lenses at the last minute which have artifcats
08:31<@peter1138>and artifacts
08:32<Wolf01>also artifdogs
08:32<@peter1138>waiting for that
08:32<Wolf01>:)
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08:33<V453000>it's probably good for porn :P
08:36<@peter1138>haha
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>they promised us VR for like 20 years now, i still don't believe it's actually coming :p
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08:47<@peter1138>*** Error in `/usr/bin/perl': free(): invalid pointer: 0x0972126c ***
08:47<@peter1138>...
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>what did you expect?
08:47<@peter1138>I...
08:47<@peter1138>Perl not to crash?
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09:01<Samu>I don't know what to do with my to do list here https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1169202#p1169202
09:04<Samu>"use the Dice.png" - i don't have the tools
09:04<Samu>i don't really understand either what to do exactly
09:05<Samu>"get rid of unused string" - if I do it, the lang files complain that it's too old
09:08<Samu>"find a way to distinguish old from new parameters" - this is... way too complex from my understanding, it is going to affect savegames too
09:08<Samu>"use random ai" is also related to that
09:09<Samu>so... I'm kinda stuck
09:09<Samu>where do I begin'
09:09<Samu>?
09:15<Samu>what do you think it's the easiest thing to do?
09:15<Samu>i need help
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11:16<Wormnest>I think I found an AI savegame bug
11:16<Wormnest>presuming you have both WormAI versions 4 and 5 available open console and startai wormai.4
11:16<Wormnest>run it for a while then save and reload the savegame
11:17<Wormnest>console shows that savegame has an ai named ´wormai.4´ which is no longer available
11:17<@Alberth>both in a tar file, with identical paths inside the tar?
11:18<Wormnest>Yes
11:18<Wormnest>Well except the version number
11:18<@Alberth>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6377
11:19<@Alberth>ie, the path to the tar is not stored, so it cannot differentiate which is which
11:20<Wormnest>Well my tars do have the version number so they do differ
11:20<@Alberth>inside the tar?
11:21<Wormnest>Looking at the message it seems when explicitly loading a specific version of the ai
11:21<Wormnest>it stores the version number as part of the ai name ´wormai.4´
11:22<Wormnest>Yes folder name inside tar is WormAI-v5, WormAI-v4 etc
11:23<@Alberth>ok, so it's a different bug then
11:23<Wormnest>Shall I report it?
11:28<@Alberth>couldn't hurt, although there might be other known problems with AI version numbering, I don't know
11:33<Wormnest>Ok working on it. I bet it´s not much tested since it´s not that well known.
11:38<@Alberth>there are lots of unknown corners :)
11:39<Wormnest>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6468
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11:59<Samu>when I was using the altered BusyBee, I extracted the original tar on the same location. It created a folder with the extracted stuff inside it
12:00<Samu>my change was deleting a file required for BusyBee to function properly. I changed it in order to make it crash.
12:00<Samu>extracted tar folder takes precedence
12:00<Samu>both versions were there
12:02<Samu>they had the same version numbering internally
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12:03<@Alberth>game scripts are different from AIs
12:03<@Alberth>although possibly not much wrt versioning
12:03<@Alberth>I do know that BB uses a different versioning system than most other scripts
12:07<Samu>let me check how a script is chosen, i stumbled upon this choice when I was evaluating a way to fix something for my patch
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12:19<Samu> /* static */ void AI::Initialize()
12:19<Samu>should be from here on
12:26<Samu>interesting, the problem you're dealing with is quite similar to mine
12:26<Samu>I want to deal with previous configs
12:26<Samu>you want to deal with older versions
12:26<Samu>kind of the same deal
12:27<Samu>seems the way tarscanner works is to use the most up to date version
12:28<Samu>so, maybe not totally related to my issue
12:35<@Alberth>that was expected :)
12:35<@Alberth>even just asking a question differently will give you different answers in return
12:36<Samu>it's confusing after all
12:36<Samu>tarscanner actually scans both wormai 4 and wormai 5
12:36<Samu>but when initializing the ais
12:37<Samu>maybe the problem is afterwards
12:37<Samu>i'm kinda sleepy yet
12:37<@Alberth>that's ok, scanners scan, they don't decide what to keep, at least that is what I would hope
12:38<Samu>so, tarscanner knows that both exist, probably further down in AI::Initialize()
12:38<Samu>gah, my english today
12:39<@Alberth>talk sleepy english :)
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12:48<Samu>there's info_list and info_single_list
12:49<Samu>info_list includes all versions, info_single_list only includes the most recent version
12:49<Samu>wormai.4 + wormai.5 in info_list
12:49<@Alberth>hmm
12:49<Samu>info_single_list only says wormai, but when i explore inside it, i find that it's version 5
12:50<@Alberth>Wormnest: is wormai.4 compatible with wormai.5 ?
12:50<Samu>min.compatible version says 1
12:50<Samu>for both
12:50<@Alberth>that could explain dropping of the .4
12:50<@Alberth>right, no reason to use wormai.4 then
12:52<Samu>AI::scanner_info
12:55<Samu>i better use your savegame, brb
13:01<Samu>strange, when listing AIs, the last that appears is WmDOT, seems like it's capped
13:02<Samu>WormAI would be listed alphabetically later
13:02<Samu>console bug?
13:02<Samu>is there a cap to how many lines the consoles can display?
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13:03<@Alberth>wouldn't expect that, tbh
13:03*Quinch looks around
13:03<@Alberth>nobody here :)
13:03<Wormnest>Alberth: Yes they are compatible
13:03<FLHerne>Quinch: Good evening
13:03<Quinch>How goes?
13:03<FLHerne>Rain!
13:03<Wormnest>Did I misinterpret the meaning of min version
13:04<Quinch>Lucky!
13:04<Samu>gonna delete some AIs, brb
13:04<@Alberth>if version 4 can be replaced with version 5, I don't see a reason why that would not happen, tbh
13:05<Quinch>Mind if I ask a few gameplay questions?
13:05<@Alberth>newer versions tend to have fewer bugs :)
13:05<@Alberth>Quinch: nope, just ask
13:05<Wormnest>Well in an ideal world :)
13:05<Wormnest>If you don´t introduce new features
13:05<@Alberth>yeah, let's just say an old version has 1 bug that the new one doesn't have :)
13:06<Quinch>First, are there any ways to modify airport permissions, either by noise or absolute amount-per-town?
13:06<@Alberth>or it has extra game play :p
13:06<Quinch>Also, any ways to tell ahead of time how quickly wagons can fill?
13:07<@Alberth>Quinch: by noise, yes. If airports have 0 noise you can have lots
13:07<@Alberth>iirc opengfx+airports has that???
13:07<@Alberth>never play with aircraft
13:08<Wormnest>but MinVersionToLoad = 1 doesn´t that mean that I can load any version equal or higher than 1
13:08<Quinch>Alberth, why not?
13:08<@Alberth>it might be more fun to place airports out of town, and transport passengers
13:09<@Alberth>Quinch: too boring, plop down 2 airports, buy load of aircraft, game done
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13:09<@Alberth>hola
13:09<FLHerne>Quinch: Also, they have this frustrating tendency to generate more traffic than you can possibly fulfil, even with a dozen airports at each end
13:09<Wormnest>Well thatś one of the things my ai and a lot of other do too :p
13:09<Quinch>I don't use them for passengers, just secondary cargo for FIRS industries. And the fact that the AIs aren't so constrained makes a nice challenge, I think.
13:10<@Alberth>oh, AIs, never use them either :p
13:10<FLHerne>So you get locked into a loop of "aargh, 3 million pax" -> [build more planes/airports] -> "aargh, 5 million pax"
13:10<@Alberth>:D
13:10<Quinch>Alberth, sometimes they do. ;-}
13:10<FLHerne>Ah, that might work better. Did try helicopters for that, the range was a bit awkward with av8
13:10<@Alberth>Wormnest: afaik "min version" is the smallest version that the given version can load
13:11<@Alberth>since 1 <= 4, version 5 can load version 4 games
13:11<Wormnest>That´s what I was thinking too
13:11<Wormnest>It´s probably just caused by the first bug
13:12<@Alberth>I am not sure there is a bug at all
13:12<@Alberth>the game can pick version 5, and continue playing
13:12<Samu> /* We want to load the latest version of this AI; so find it */
13:12<Samu>heh... already see the code doing something ... that shouldn't
13:12<@Alberth>why would it ever load version 4?
13:13<Samu>i dunno, because it was started as v4
13:13<Wormnest>I read somewhere maybe ai wiki that loading a savegame it first tries to load the version it was saved with
13:13<@Alberth>that defeats the updating mechanism when you fix a bug
13:13<Wormnest>Doesn´t it do that for NewGRF´s too
13:14<Samu>this->info_single_list - it's searching for 'wormai' in this list, which means... there's only v5 in there
13:14<Samu>it's gonna load v5
13:15<Samu>t.t
13:15<@Alberth>I think so, but min-version compatibility is quite new in newgrfs
13:15<Wormnest>https://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Save/Load#Handling_of_save_versions
13:15<@Alberth>ie action 14 added it
13:16<frosch123>moin mammals :)
13:17<V453000>SLUGS ARE PEOPLE TOO
13:17<Samu> /* If we didn't find a match AI, maybe the user included a version */
13:17<Samu>the user did, but the savegame did not
13:17<Wormnest>The good thing is it gave me a reason to add a function to load whatever it finds on the map :)
13:18<@Alberth>that sounds useful :)
13:18<frosch123>V453000: hi gastropodes :)
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13:18<V453000>hello :)
13:19<Samu>gonna check what the savegame actually saves, brb
13:21<Samu>saves the name, saves the version, saves if it's random, saves parameters and an AI::Save, which is asking the AI to save stuff
13:22<Wolf01>just finished building the new lego maze, it's really cool
13:22<Wormnest>But is there a difference in the name saved by the latest version of ai and an older started with a number
13:23<Samu>problem doesn't appear to be when saving
13:23<V453000>Wolf01: you can make wall mazes in factorio :P
13:23<Samu>but when loading
13:23<Samu>if it's a problem, i don't really think it is, given Alberth explanation
13:23<Wolf01>I do that for biters
13:23<V453000>sure but for players :P
13:24<Wolf01>for players is not so cool, you have bird eye view and the map :P
13:24<V453000>yeah but big maze = not so easy
13:25<Wormnest>Hm should make a test where WormAI 4 is the latest version available and then add v5
13:26<Samu>it actually loads the version
13:26<Samu>but when initializing the ai, it prefers to load the latest version
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13:27<Samu>i better recheck this loading from the start
13:28<Samu>DEBUG(script, 0, "The savegame has an AI by the name '%s', version %d which is no longer available.", _ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version);
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13:30<Wormnest>Well that does indeed also load v5 so it´s at least consistent :)
13:33<Wormnest>Although it doesn´t complain about older version not being available and does load the savegame data
13:36<Wormnest>Note that in the scenario where you use startai wormai.4 it says the name of the ai is ´wormai.4´ not wormai
13:40<Samu> if (StrEmpty(_ai_saveload_name)) {
13:40<Samu>_ai_saveload_name = wormai.4
13:40<supermop>frosch123: thank you for using correct plural
13:43<Wormnest>but shouldn´t it have been saved as wormai
13:43<Wormnest>because version is already saved separately
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13:45<Samu>force exact match, hmm it's trying to load the exact match "wormai.4", from where
13:45<Samu>hmm sec
13:46<Samu>nop
13:46<Samu>if (force_exact_match) { it skipped this step
13:46<Samu>grr
13:46<Samu>had it not skip it, it would do this: /* Try to find a direct 'name.version' match */
13:46<frosch123>supermop: did you expect "gastropods" or "gastropedes"?
13:46<Samu>and it would be loading v4
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13:47<Samu>from the info_list, which is there
13:47<supermop>at least it wasn't gastropi like moronic americans would say
13:48<Samu>it skipped that step, now it's doing this /* See if there is a compatible AI which goes by that name, with the highest * version which allows loading the requested version */
13:48<Samu>it's gonna load v5 t.t
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13:50<Wormnest>Which is ok but it´s not loading the savegame data even though it should
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13:56<Samu>strange if (strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0
13:56-!-kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
13:56<Samu>it was comparing wormai.4 with WormAI
13:56<Samu>and returned false
13:56<Samu>hmm what am i missing
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14:03<Wormnest_>My idea is that the ´.4´ part shouldn´t have been saved as part of the name in the savegame
14:06<Samu>it iterated over both versions, but it was comparing as WormAI
14:06<Samu>i see
14:06<Samu>now i wonder if that's what it's supposed to do
14:06<Samu>or if it's indeed a bug
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14:09<Samu>i'm already on that part of the code where it is loading the latest version because it didn't find a matching version
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14:10<Samu>ok gonna repeat this
14:11<Wormnest_>Because the test save where wormai v4 was the latest and started normally doesn´t show the same behavior
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14:12<Wormnest_>I added the other savegame to the bug report for comparison
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14:34<Samu>looks like you're right
14:34<Samu>the 2nd time it is comparing
14:35<Samu>it is comparing as wormai to WormAI
14:35<Samu>it truncated the .4 out of it
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14:36<Wormnest_>ugh connection so bad lately
14:36<Samu>let's see what it does now when it finds a match
14:36<Samu>it will iterate over both v4 and v5, but i suspect at this point, he's gonna just use the latest version
14:39<Samu>wormai to WormAI is true! :9
14:39<Samu>it's now comparing versions
14:39<@Alberth>strCASEcmp :)
14:41<Wormnest_>Using latest version is ok that seems intentional
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14:53<Samu>i'm now testing a savegame of my own
14:53<Samu>the name that is loaded is WormAI, not wormai.4
14:53<Samu>there's some discrepancy
14:54<Samu>and i mean the saved name
14:54<Samu>it saved as WormAI
14:54<Samu>and the save provided by wormnest had it saved as wormai.4
14:54<Samu>brb, gonna try something else
14:55<Wormnest_>My first savegame yes, the second savegame probably also had wormai
14:57<Samu>ah, now i used the console: startai wormai.4
14:57<Samu>and it saved with the name 'wormai.4'
14:57<Samu>false alarm, sorry
14:57<Samu>let me check your other save
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15:02<Samu>your other same, saved it as 'WormAI'
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15:02<Samu>save*
15:03<Samu>version saved is 4
15:04<Samu>brb, dinner
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i suppose "-pi" is a joke that got out of hand...
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, are slugs gastropodes? they don't exactly have feet... not even on their mouths...
15:59<V453000>I am fairly sure they are
16:01<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: slug is the essential gastropod
16:03<supermop>also you would be surprised how many americans adamantly believe plural of octopus is octopi and will make a point of correcting anyone who says octopuses (correct english plural) or octopodes (correct greek)
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>just tell them "it's not 'millipi' either"
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>thankfully, that problem doesn't really exist in german...
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>if a german makes a plural, he just sticks an -e on it. or maybe if it already has an -e, turns it into an -en, or if it has an -en or -er it stays an -en or -er, or maybe something completely different. totally easy.
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>it somehow got more common to slap an s on it (inspired from english)
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>especially with foreign words or abbreviations
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16:18<andythenorth>o/
16:18<Wolf01>o/
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>the last spelling reform added a rule that english-derived words which end in -y turn into -ys instead of -ies
16:19<andythenorth>o/
16:21<Samu>back
16:23<Samu>the problem is here: https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp;h=e8b5339c0df82064d70589e3883bf0f9df1b741c;hb=HEAD#l86
16:23<Samu>line 86
16:23<Samu>it does not find any script
16:25<Samu>line 87 - (!config->HasScript())
16:25<Samu>this is true, and begins the bracket { } which apparently shouldn't
16:26<Samu>problem originated at line 86
16:26<Samu>hmm
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16:28<Samu>at line 90, it cuts the '.4' out of 'wormai.4'
16:28<Samu>and in there it compares wormai with "WormAI"
16:29<Samu>and finds both v4 and v5, and decides to use v5
16:29<Samu>there is a script now, so the next (!config->HasScript()) and line 91 is false, and jumps to the else part
16:30<Samu>at line 99, it prints the error message
16:30<supermop>yo andythenorth
16:30<Wormnest_>Going for 5 seems intended problem is it doesn´t load the savedata form wormai.4
16:30<andythenorth>lo supermop
16:31<Samu>so, problem is line 86
16:31<Samu>gonna see if i can change the way it compares version
16:31<Samu>erm, compares name, that is
16:32<Samu>does not find any script because it tries to match 'wormai.4' with 'WormAI' - this is the problem
16:32<Samu>and this problem is .. somewhere in another file, let me get the name
16:34<Samu>ai_scanner.cpp
16:34<Samu>line 95
16:35<Samu>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp;h=4eb20714799140272b34741b6121e582d546632e;hb=HEAD#l95
16:35<Samu>line 107 test is false
16:35<Samu>jumps to 120, also false
16:36<Samu>and the comparison issue is at line 133
16:36<Samu>it is cycling over all available scripts in the system
16:36<Samu>but compares the name
16:36<Samu>and the name wasn't truncated at this point
16:37<Samu>line 133 is working with the wrong name
16:38<Samu>hmm, what can i do
16:42<supermop>its like 90 here
16:43<supermop>time to play some in a hot country?
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16:48<Samu>better check the saving part of the code again
16:48<Samu>brb
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16:52<Samu>it saves with the name wormai.4, think the problem might be even before doing the save
16:52<Samu>must find the console command 'startai'
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17:10<Samu>the console sets the name of the AI to wormai.4
17:10<Samu>that is so wrong :(
17:12<Samu>oh, i see why
17:12<Samu>but when it returns with the ai
17:12<Samu>it should fix the name
17:13<Samu>and it doesn't
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17:27<Samu>so, it's the console
17:27<Samu>it takes the name of the argument and uses it as the name
17:27<Samu>erm..
17:29<Samu>'startai wormai.4' - it needs 'wormai.4' in the argument to find the wormai with version 4 in the system. So far, this is correct
17:29<Samu>what is not correct is that it also sets the name of the AI to 'wormai.4'
17:30<Samu>hmm, it needs to rename 'wormai.4' to whatever name version 4 of wormai actually sets it to
17:30<Samu>and that's WormAI
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>90 what? humidity?
18:04<Wolf01>degrees, angle
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18:07<supermop>90 CE
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18:37<Samu>who understands pointers?
18:37<Samu>i want to change the name of a string
18:39<Samu>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/console_cmds.cpp;h=8d9e04113d3964a34fbceaf559a7d9152f0f3a0a;hb=39d588fa6000f4141cc22fc55bd3d1747ffff92f#l1170
18:39<Samu>line 1170 picks the name of the AI from argv[1]
18:40<Samu>this name is 'wormai.4'
18:40<Samu>how do i rename it to 'wormai'?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>90 CE is a long time ago :p
18:41<Samu>bah i dunno what to do, seems so simple
18:41<Samu>i just know what needs to be done, but i don't know how to code it
18:44<Samu>before line 1175, and after line 1174 it must rename it to the correct name of the AI
18:46<Samu>line 1174 } else { insert code that renamees 'wormai.4' to 'wormai';
18:46<Samu>halp?
18:46<Samu>I can't do this alone, t.t, sorry
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19:04<Wolf01>wrong approach to problem, when you will have wtfAI123.45b what do you do, a dedicated code for that too?
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19:11<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6468#comment14196 - here's my comment about my findings
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19:15<Samu>i dont know how to code a fix, i just know where the problem originates... t.t
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19:40<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: the level of air conditioning technology in my office today seems to be from 90CE
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19:44<Wolf01>'night
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21:16<Samu>sup
21:17<Samu>forum died for a while
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21:45<Samu>cyas goodnight
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22:00*Quinch pokes head back in
22:01<Eddi|zuHause>nobody here. get out again.
22:05<ST2>Quinch poked my marshmallows, which are good to burn and poke him until he gets unconscious :D
22:18<Quinch>You should thank me, marshmallows are in league with the devil. Or Jody Foster.
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had marshmallows...
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>in my country we have Knüppelkuchen
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22:27<Quinch>Anyhoo, I have a question, if anyone feels like answering.
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have a metaanswer to your metaquestion.
22:27<ST2>Quinch, check topic: | Don't ask to ask, just ask |
22:28<Quinch>Hehe.
22:28<Quinch>Basically, if I have a vehicle going A-B-A-C, I'll usually end up with cargo being seemingly reserved for one station even while vehicles heading to the other one are waiting for cargo.
22:29<Quinch>How's that work?
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>click on the "+" to see where cargo is going
22:29<ST2>Cargodist experts required
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22:29<Eddi|zuHause>or set cargodist to "manual" to disable the destinations
22:30<Quinch>What is cargo distribution about anyway?
22:30<ST2>imo, Cargodist enabled in MP servers is a dumb thing - because players can't see it when joining servers
22:31<Eddi|zuHause>how is that relevant?
22:32<ST2>and new players don't understand it - and the game don't explain it properly (to a new player joining the game)
22:32<Eddi|zuHause>Quinch: cargodist gives cargo (especially passengers and mail) a mind of its own instead of blindly getting off at the next station
22:33<Eddi|zuHause>makes those cargos more challenging to transport
22:33<Quinch>Go onnnnnn....?
22:33<Eddi|zuHause>as they travel longer distances
22:34<ST2>note: don't connect stations that accept pax to where you only want to deliver goods (for example)
22:34<ST2>or you'll get pax go there
22:35<ST2>want*
22:36<ST2>I don't know what people play here, but the biggest online communities of OpenTTD have cargodist disabled
22:36<ST2>I guess that says something
22:36<Quinch>Pax?
22:36<Eddi|zuHause>that says nothing, as "the biggest online communities" are still only a tiny fraction of the whole playerbase
22:37<ST2>openttdcoop handles 0,ish of ttd players
22:38<Quinch>Another question, power or tractive effort - which one makes the biggest difference?
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>and i do see how destinations are not fitting short-lived city-builder type games, and get in the way of coop-style megalomanic micromanagement networks
22:38<Eddi|zuHause>but it's one of the most requested feature for people trying to build "realistic" networks
22:39<ST2>sorry for "the biggest online communities" making the game popular and growing , gathering new players
22:39<Eddi|zuHause>ST2: do you have any data to support that statement?
22:39<ST2>yup
22:39<ST2>and you have too
22:40<ST2>the difference is that I check that data, and you don't
22:40<Eddi|zuHause>why would it be my job to support your random claims?
22:41<ST2>what's my claims?
22:41<ST2>I claimed nothing ^^
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>you claimed that "the biggest online communities" are the driving factor of popularity and growth
22:42<ST2>it's a known fact
22:42<ST2>I wasn't claiming
22:42<Eddi|zuHause>you have no clue how many "known facts" are actually completely false
22:43<ST2>http://www.novapolis.net/graph_community
22:43<ST2>you consider that false?
22:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's a blank page
22:43<ST2>recheck your browser
22:43<ST2>or use a real one
22:45<Eddi|zuHause>but even if there were a graph to show up, how would that prove anything other than that specific online community growing? and help determining whether the growth of the openttd community as a whole is affected by this one way or another?
22:45<ST2>I'm here not to teach people how to use internet browsers - if you don't see that graph, you dnt use free internet at all
22:46<ST2>and you're not a free mind to interpret what's there
22:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sorry if i don't let random webpages steal my energy for their bullshitscripts
22:46<ST2>so, I dnt mind
22:47<ST2>well, it's a graph based on collected data here: http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
22:47-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
22:48<ST2>if not reliable, the source isnt as well
22:48<Eddi|zuHause>sure. but again, how does that prove anything except for self-referential "we're growing because we're growing"?
22:49<ST2>do the math
22:49<ST2>ofc, if you can do that
22:49<ST2>(joking ^^)
22:50<Eddi|zuHause>since there is no data on offline-players, there's no math to be done
22:50<ST2>data on "offline-players" ?
22:50<Eddi|zuHause>and if 1% of all offline players ever went to an online server, that's a lot.
22:51<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: that's 90's data
22:51<Eddi|zuHause>this is a 90's game.
22:51<ST2>today players try OpenTTD online 1st
22:51<Eddi|zuHause>also, nobody in the 90's had online play.
22:52<ST2>I noticed as a community admin - I talk to real players that install the game for the 1st time
22:53<Eddi|zuHause>no, you're heavily biased towards people that install and then go to online servers.
22:53<ST2>and most of them get OpenTTD because have a MP option
22:53<ST2>´so, I think you real need to get into the real openttd
22:54<ST2>we have servers with newgrf's and others without them
22:54<ST2>most popular are without... guess why?!
22:54<Eddi|zuHause>you still don't have data about people who never go online.
22:54<ST2>do you?
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, but i did not make unfounded claims
22:55<ST2>because I have more data about the ppl goes online that you
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>and for the 5th time i tell you that data is BIASED
22:56<ST2>since when BIASED is an OpenTTD thing?
22:57<ST2>unless you caused it... and some communities try to make it better
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>you're hopeless. goodbye.
22:59<ST2>Thank you :)
22:59<ST2>mind if I quote you?
22:59<ST2>on next events ^^
23:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
23:00<ST2>thx again ^^
23:00<ST2>and will be on our Factorio event xD
23:01<ST2>a industry with "Eddi|zuHause" quotes scrolling xD
23:01<ST2>thank you :)
23:05<ST2>oh well, put them too on OpenTTD achievements too
23:06<ST2>thx Eddi|zuHause for some ideas ^^
23:07<ST2>oh wait, Eddi|zuHause: do you play MP games or you stick to your
23:07<ST2>SP game where you can't lose?
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>what's the point of a game where you can lose?
23:08<ST2>(now I'm pushing, I know ^^)
23:08<ST2>OpenTTD
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>games where you can lose were made in the 80s
23:08<ST2>even the vanilla have a winnint stats
23:09<ST2>winning*
23:10<ST2>[04:08:56] <Eddi|zuHause> games where you can lose were made in the 80s <<-- did you stopped there or got that even OpenTTD can have goals now?
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>how do "goals" have anything to do with losing?
23:11<ST2>a game is a game
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>if you enjoy losing, play evil mario or something...
23:12<ST2>if you lose a game but respectfully within server rules, it's a good game
23:12<Eddi|zuHause>not for me.
23:12<ST2>that's why we have goals on OpenTTD and even when lost, players say Good Game to the winner
23:13<ST2>I think you need to tune your gameplay better
23:13<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's to you
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>or you need to recognize that players play for vastly different reasons
23:14<ST2>I guess I once invited you to join some of our servers
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>and i guess i never did that.
23:14<ST2>that was your fault
23:15<Eddi|zuHause>why? there would be nothing enjoyable there for me...
23:16<ST2>because we, one of the infamous ttd communities, try to keep players on OpenTTD
23:16<ST2>and them to enjoy the game
23:16<ST2>ánd by the game I mean the GAME
23:16<ST2>the real game, OpenTTD
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>claims such as this truly enrage me.
23:17<ST2>to you.... I dnt know
23:17<ST2>I can't place porn in there
23:17<ST2>sorry
23:17<Eddi|zuHause>you sound like a politician of an opposite party
23:18<ST2>you sound like a polititian on the "no ideas"side
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>"only i am the bestestest at polititioning. all the other parties are terrible. you must vote for me or you are an idiot"
23:18<Eddi|zuHause>i have plenty of ideas, but i don't force them down your throat.
23:19<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: I understand that you deal with the "code side": I deal with the players side
23:19<ST2>none is easy
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>that is both untrue and irrelevant.
23:20<ST2>can you elaburate, please
23:20<ST2>[04:19:49] <Eddi|zuHause> that is both untrue and irrelevant. <<-- and for both
23:20<Eddi|zuHause>i made many thousand forum posts, but maybe changed like 100 lines of code ever in openttd...
23:21-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:21<Eddi|zuHause>so i dealt with many more players than lines of code.
23:21<ST2>´really?
23:22<ST2>I made couple forum posts, (including making Alberth anglry with me)
23:22<ST2>and changed thousand lines to code
23:23<ST2>but I got the friend's side on players
23:23<Eddi|zuHause>i totally see how with your style of argument you make people angry.
23:24<ST2>wait, people angry on what side?
23:24<ST2>players or devs?
23:24<ST2>you must see that
23:25<ST2>because without players, devs are useless
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>any people...
23:25<ST2>wait, people angry on what side?
23:25<ST2>players or devs?
23:25<Eddi|zuHause>all the devs are also players
23:26<Eddi|zuHause>(well, to a certain degree)
23:26<ST2>I know players opinions... I deal with them everyday
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>the point is not about players or devs. the point is you have a very narrow opinion, and you project that opinion onto other people
23:27<ST2>and we, the "communities" deal with ~50% of online players
23:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but your perceived 50% is still just 0.5%
23:28<ST2>unless you have a magic wand to know opinions of offline players
23:28<Eddi|zuHause>you have a serious case of "filter bubble" going on
23:28<ST2>and that's what I need to know
23:28<ST2>how you get the opinions of offline players
23:28<ST2>is there a secret?
23:29<Eddi|zuHause>a filter bubble is when you surround yourself with people that share your opinion, and then assume that because everyone in your immediate surrounding has that opinion, the opinion must be universal
23:29<ST2>[04:28:17] <Eddi|zuHause> you have a serious case of "filter bubble" going on
23:30<ST2>I know what's that
23:30<ST2>[04:28:26] <ST2> and that's what I need to know
23:30<ST2>[04:28:41] <ST2> how you get the opinions of offline players
23:30<ST2>[04:28:51] <ST2> is there a secret?
23:30<ST2>that I dnt know
23:30<ST2>can you explain?
23:30<ST2>please
23:30<Eddi|zuHause>there are loads of people in the forum who play mostly single player... just have to listen to them.
23:31<Eddi|zuHause>like, check out the screenshot forum. totally different world to your "online community"
23:31<ST2>I listen to them, I mostly listen to posts that are ignored - and I check them all
23:32<ST2>that's my "filter bibble"
23:32<ST2>bubble*
23:32<ST2>if you see my HTPS access, you can see it
23:35<ST2>in case you dnt have acess to that: I loaded ~1500 times the forum
23:35<ST2>last week
23:36<Eddi|zuHause>why would anyone have access to that?
23:36<ST2>so, Eddi|zuHause, you're claiming that people using OpenTTD offline are bigger that online?
23:37<ST2>and where can you check that?
23:37<ST2>by myself, I download 10 times OpenTTD a week
23:37<ST2>an average
23:38-!-Ttech [~ttech@00014919.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Este é o fim.]
23:38<ST2>and on different computers
23:38<ST2>work, home, pub, gf home, etc etc
23:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can't check that, because OpenTTD does not record that data.
23:38<ST2>how you measure?
23:38<ST2>it records
23:39<ST2>that data
23:39<Eddi|zuHause>you can't measure that, because OpenTTD does not record that data.
23:39<ST2>it records
23:39<ST2>that data
23:39<ST2>for knowing... I repeated
23:40<ST2>ofc, I guess you didn't know that
23:40<ST2>or, can't acess it
23:42<ST2>I can have that data, from my side, whenever I acessed a specific "https" or "svn" or whatever
23:42<ST2>if not controlled from server side, bad
23:43<ST2>huge data there, but if not saved :S
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23:46<ST2>btw, Comodo CA limited, provides all that info
23:46<ST2>ofc, if you have acess to it
23:47<ST2>I guess Eddi|zuHause never played an online game since 1994
23:47<ST2>this nis all strange to him ^^
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23:50<ST2>and by an online game, I mean not with his "pussy" friends, I mean a REAL online OpenTTD game
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23:51<ST2>well, this is how we measure how devs gets envolved with the game itself ^^
23:52*ST2 me drop mic
23:54<Eddi|zuHause>funny how you "drop the mic" 15 minutes after the conversation ended.
23:56<ST2>well, was way better that say that to all!
23:56<ST2>but now you did :S
23:57<ST2>I was waiting a reply
23:57<ST2>none = drop mic, he quited
23:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, i gave up on this conversation like an hour ago, but you can't take hints, obviously
23:59<ST2>I could used it earlier, but simply didn't wanted to ashamed you so soon
---Logclosed Thu May 26 00:00:31 2016