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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-05-26

---Logopened Thu May 26 00:00:31 2016
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00:03<ST2>btw Eddi|zuHause: about OpenTTD, and what we've talked: can you say where you make testings?
00:03<ST2>because our test servers are public and real players can touch it and TEST
00:06<ST2>** that's how DistCargo appeared - no replies = it's good" **
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01:20<Xal>ST2: I think what Eddi|zuHause was trying to tell you was that the burden of proof lies on the accuser, and claiming that the majority of players play MP requires data to back it up. Because there's no data on the total number of player (offline) there's no way to back up your claim
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05:19<Wolf01>ha... Project Ara (the modular smartphone from LG/Google) lost the full customisation... it will end with just the customisable cover and the ability to replace the battery
05:20<Wolf01> also, the guy uploaded the photos of the last exhibition
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06:00<Ethereal_Whisper>mfw I split lines and then merged then immediately because I wasn't paying attention
06:00<Ethereal_Whisper> GOOD JOB TRICIA
06:05<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm gonna leave the construction in place since it's fully balanced and it would take more work to delete it than it's worth lol
06:28<V453000>0.13 HYPE
06:28<Wolf01>all aboard the hype train
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09:14<Samu>i stumbled upon a log with st2 arguing
09:14<Samu>with zu
09:16<Samu>i'm sorry st2, but you started the "war"
09:16<Samu>that's my view on it
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09:20<Samu>for me, CargoDist is an interesting change of pace, but I agree, it's confusing at first
09:22<supermop>not sure why some people find it offensive
09:26<Samu>the rest of the discussion is... uhm.... "irrelevant" to the topic at hand: CargoDist
09:33<Samu>CargoDist in multiplayer, might work better on those servers without goal, sandbox style
09:38<Samu>I don't think people hate CargoDist because they dislike it, but rather because they don't know how it works. I didn't like it at first, mainly because I didn't know what was happening
09:38<Samu>there is a learning curve that players have to go thru
09:38<Samu>but I guess most don't want to
09:46<Wolf01>I enable it and connect everything, then I'll upgrade some lines or others depending on the needs
09:46<Wolf01>I don't know how it works and I don't want to
09:47<Wolf01>it's just another mean to give some movement to the game, like industry closures and production changes
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09:50<@Alberth>hi hi
09:53<Samu>yes Wolf01 - i also find CargoDist more tailored towards long lasting games
09:54<Samu>btpro servers are mostly competitive games that don't tend to last too long.
09:54<Samu>i see why it doesn't become popular
09:55<supermop>no reason you can't have a 'competitive' game with CD, it's just that the existing competitive servers and GS use criteria that don't take advantage of it at all
09:59<V453000>every time we tried cargodist, it would start doing weird shit with a big network, and not giving any gameplay benefit at all
10:01<@Alberth>solving shit isn't the fun part? :)
10:03<V453000>it was shit you can't solve
10:03<V453000>I don't remember specifically, but it happens every single time
10:03<_dp_>CD is much like a GS on its own, conflicts with almost any other gs/goal.
10:04<V453000>once like 95% of farm supplies prefered 1 farm cluster in FIRS, another time some passengers decided it is a good thing to wait at the station for wtf reason
10:04<V453000>we didn't use any GS
10:04<V453000>it's just trash
10:04<V453000>IF it had a nice gameplay-enhancing concept, I could see the point
10:05<Samu>why would passengers want to go to a farm
10:05<Samu>farm accepts passengers?
10:05<Wolf01>V453000, maybe the other farm paid more, and the passengers were doing something
10:06<V453000>yeah Wolf01 , nope
10:06<@Alberth>disabled preference for local delivery, I hope?
10:06<V453000>I don't really know anymore Alberth
10:06<@Alberth>but yeah, it starts working when you connect things, so biggest trouble arises when you connect everything(tm)
10:07<V453000>but most likely our settings were proper, most likely I discussed the issue when it was hot in this channel
10:08<Wolf01>the only time I found a weird situation was when I changed the direction of the traffic because I removed an old loop around a lake replacing it with a more suitable (and fast) double track with a bridge, but I had to connect it on the other side of a station
10:09<Wolf01>while before it was A-B-C-D, it bacame A-C-B-C-D and the network exploded
10:09<V453000>it probably always has a chance do do some weird shit, but since we build huge networks, that chance usually (always so far) gets triggered
10:19<Samu> - I joined my server to see how long it would take to fully synchronize
10:19<Samu>5 minutes 40 seconds
10:22<Samu>2 min 30 secs to download, then 3 min 10 secs to catch-up
10:22<Samu>there's more than 15k vehicles in it
10:23<Wolf01> could we have these?
10:24<Wolf01>oh wait... there aren't cars in ottd :(
10:24<Wolf01>Anybody who wants to add cars so we can have these? :D
10:25<Samu>15965 vehicles
10:29<Samu>server is so slow that sometimes it disappears from the master server list
10:29<Samu>then re-appears
10:29<supermop>i never have had 'weird' problems with CD, even with every town on the map connected in one network, and local trams or buses within those towns
10:30<supermop>i do get lines or nodes that become stressed over capacity, but i see that as part of the point of CD, to selectively determine which trunks need more bandwidth
10:31<supermop>rather than a point to point mesh that eventually is just homogeneous over the whole map
10:32<Wolf01>play mini metro, that's paxdest on steroids
10:46<supermop>Wolf01: actually i find homogeneous mesh is a valid strategey in mini metro
10:46<Wolf01>I still fail with every strategy
10:47<Wolf01>tries with a mesh, trunks and branches, triangles, circles, squares, clouds, dogs and dicks
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10:48<supermop>Wolf01: i dont think it is possible to not fail
10:49<Wolf01>with "fail" I mean that I transport <1000 passengers before failing hard
10:49<Wolf01>usually I'm on 480-650
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11:06<Samu>i have a problem to solve, it requires savegame conversion
11:06<Samu>"- Implemented a fix that corrects the name of AIs that are started via startai command in the console when the parameter also included the version. Saving a game will thus, store the correct name of the AI from now on. Loading previous savegames that have stored the incorrect name will still fail to recognize the intended name of the AI."
11:09<Samu>i wanted to convert the name that is incorrectly stored on old saves into the correct name
11:10<Samu>problem is that how would it distinguish which name is right from which name is wrong
11:11<Samu>something Wolf01 said to me yesterday
11:11<Samu>there is no real way to tell, is it?
11:16<Wolf01>I said that was the wrong approach for the problem
11:17<Wolf01>maybe you should find why it pass the folder name to the function instead of the display name, and not trying to fix the string at the end
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11:20<Samu>it doesn't pass folder name
11:20<Samu>i type in console: startai wormai.4
11:21<Samu>it takes the 'wormai.4' part to search for a wormai with version 4, it does this part correctly
11:21<Samu>however, it forgets to put the correct name once it finds it
11:21<Samu>it leaves wormai.4 as the name of the AI
11:22<Wolf01>then you need to get the real name when the search function finds it
11:22<Samu>my fix was actually that
11:23<Wolf01>but you shouldn't edit the strings directly (eg. removing the .4)
11:24<Samu>i put this after line 25 of script_config.cpp
11:24<Samu>this->name = (info == NULL) ? NULL : stredup(GetInfo()->GetName());
11:24<Samu>info == NULL would mean that it did not find any wormai with version 4
11:26<Samu>if there is INFO, it changes this->name into the intended name
11:27<Samu>this->name goes from wormai.4 to WormAI
11:30<Samu>I am, however, wondering if this fix breaks something else
11:30<Samu>i am assuming that it doesn't
11:30<Wolf01>you need to find where is used this->name
11:31<Samu>it is used on ai_sl.cpp for example
11:31<Samu>both saving and loading
11:31<Wolf01>then you might want to add this->realname and use that, leaving this->name untouched
11:44<Samu>you're right, i can't do it like this
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11:57<Samu>if (this->info != NULL) this->name = (GetInfo()->GetName());
11:57<Samu>pff :(
11:58<Wolf01>it's almost the same as before
11:58<Samu>doesn't change "none" to NULL anymore, but... it's the wrong approach
11:59<Wolf01>also, I need to sleep
12:01<Samu>woah, it really is searching for a scriptI by the name none
12:01<Samu>what would happen if someone actually creates an AI with this name
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12:05<Samu>i got to fix it at the console_cmds.cpp
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12:26<Samu> config->Change(config->GetInfo()->GetName()); - pointer to incomplete class type is not allowed
12:29<Samu>3>..\src\console_cmds.cpp(1175): error C2027: use of undefined type 'AIInfo'
12:29<Samu>3> d:\openttd\trunk\src\company_base.h(118): note: see declaration of 'AIInfo'
12:29<Samu>3>..\src\console_cmds.cpp(1175): error C2227: left of '->GetName' must point to class/struct/union/generic type
12:31<Samu>company_base.h, line 118: class AIInfo *ai_info;
12:32<Samu>I have no idea what I'm looking at :(
12:33<Samu>these errors are chinese to me, no idea what's undefined, what's declaration, what's class/struct/union... :(
12:39<TrueBrain>buy any C++ book?
12:39<TrueBrain>or .. any programming book, if class/struct/union is unknown to you
12:41<@Alberth>nah, that would be too easy
12:42<TrueBrain>I am afraid the word is: too hard :P
12:42<@Alberth>also a valid option :)
12:43<TrueBrain>I am still considering frosch only boots up till someone said quak ..
12:43<@Alberth>he reads the log, looking for quaks :)
12:43<frosch123>hoi mammals and gastropodes :)
12:44<TrueBrain>I am gassy today, that is for sure
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13:06<Samu>omg I think I did it
13:08<@Alberth>all problems solved \o/
13:08<Samu>I hope it is correcting the name now
13:08<Samu>gonna make sure
13:10<Samu>hmm, i guess not
13:10<Samu>nop, grrr
13:11<Samu>I only want to change the name, not the whole script
13:15<Samu> - reverted to this fix, it does it better, but at the risk of not being compatible with the so many other functions that make use of this
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14:06<Wolf01>you don't even need the else, just put the code between the 2 ifs
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14:12<Samu>Change(stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff) - does a lot of stuff than just changing the name :(
14:13<Samu>void ScriptConfig::Change(const char *name, int version, bool force_exact_match, bool is_random)
14:16<Samu>AIInfo *AIScannerInfo::FindInfo(const char *nameParam, int versionParam, bool force_exact_match)
14:16<Samu>this is the real information retriever
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14:17<Samu>there's a GameInfo version too
14:19<Samu>feels like a network of functions
14:21<Samu>but what I wanted to say was that, - line 19 is doing it wrong
14:22<Samu>it changes the name, yes, but then also searches the system for an AI with the changed name, and if I had told to start version 4 of wormai, now it is going to load the most up-date version, so I can't do it like that
14:23<Samu>it was going to load version 5
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14:30<Samu>hi w
14:30<Wormnest>hi :)
14:31<Samu>i made a fix, but it's far from perfect
14:32<Samu>there are a lot of functions that depend on Change function
14:33<Wormnest>Nice, does it work for all cases now?
14:33<Samu>I don't know how to answer that
14:33<Samu>old saves won't work
14:33<Samu>they stored the wrong name
14:34<Samu>loading them back will still give the same error you were getting
14:34<Wormnest>Well I´m not too sure that´s correct
14:34<Samu>new saves, however, will store the correct name
14:34<Samu>loading back will not give that error, but will still load the latest available version of WormAI
14:34<Wormnest>I´ve been thinking about it and I think storing wormai.4 instead of wormai was on purpose
14:35<Samu>oh really? :(
14:35<Wormnest>It was done to differentiate with a normally loaded ai
14:36<Wormnest>This also means I think that the purpose was to be able to load back the explicitly set version of the ai
14:36<andythenorth>is cat?
14:36<Samu>you're refering to the 2nd savegame? it has it stored as WormAI
14:37<Samu>how did you start it?
14:37<Samu>the bug is originated from within the console :(
14:37<Wormnest>no the first
14:38<Samu>1st savegame has it stored as wormai.4 - this was what you had input in the console
14:38<Wormnest>starting as startai wormai.4 stores name in savegame as wormai.4
14:38<Wormnest>but starting normal saves as wormai
14:39<Samu>it's a console command bug in my opinion, what led me to check what was is really doing
14:39<Wormnest>I think it´s on purpose but I might be wrong
14:40<Wormnest>If you add a command to load an explicit version of an ai instead of the latest version
14:40<Wormnest>It also makes sense that you would want to load that version back from a savegame
14:40<Wormnest>Thus you cannot save it as wormai and store version 4, but you need to add something thus wormai.4
14:41<Samu>it stores both, name and version
14:41<Samu>name was being stored as wormai.4, version was stored as 4
14:41<Samu>uhm yes? so hmm I'm confused
14:42<Wormnest>But if it stored name as wormai then you could not distinguis between wormai loaded normally
14:42<Wormnest>and an older wormai version loaded explicitly when a newer version was already available
14:43<Samu>min_loadable_version for both version 4 and version 5 is 1
14:43<Wormnest>that´s why it stores it as wormai.4 meaning ok we know this isn´t the latest version but that´s the one we want
14:44<Samu>hmm let me test again with my fix
14:44<Wormnest>but ofcourse I´m only guessing I´m not the one who wrote the code :)
14:45<Samu>there's more checkings done other than just the name
14:45<Samu>it checks version if it finds an ai with that name
14:45<Samu>since it was working with the wrong name, it wasn't even going to check the version
14:45<Wormnest>Yea that was clear from the console messages
14:46<Samu>let me find the piece of code that works with that information
14:46<Samu>if (strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0 && i->CanLoadFromVersion(versionParam) && (version == -1 || i->GetVersion() > version)) {
14:47<Wormnest>By the way the documentation claims that the intention is to always load the version of the ai it was saved with:
14:48<Samu>strcasecmp(ai_name, i->GetName()) == 0 - this part was always false
14:48<Samu>version was never checked
14:49<Samu>it's quite a labyrinth of information being passed around
14:49<Wormnest>I bet
14:49<@Alberth>hi hi andythenorth
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14:50<Samu>i->CanLoadFromVersion - this i is the script it found on the system, there's 2 wormais in my rig, wormai version 4 and wormai version 5
14:50<Samu>it finds wormai 4 first
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14:51<Samu>compares the min_loadable_version that is on wormai 4 in the system and the version stored in the savegame
14:51<Samu>then does the same for wormai 5
14:52<Samu>and comes up with the most up to date version which can load that save, it's wormai 5
14:52<Samu>at least it's what I think it's doing
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14:52<Samu>had you set wormai 5 with a min loadable version of 5
14:53<Samu>i bet it would only load wormai 4
14:53<Wormnest>That´s what I think it´s doing too, the question is was that really the intention
14:54<Samu>savegame stored it as 4, forgot to mention
15:00<Samu>i'm reading those docs
15:01<Samu>heh, how do you guys always find this documentation
15:02<@Alberth>usually by function name
15:02<@Alberth>ie you look for a function name that looks what you are looking for , go to it, and start reading
15:03<Samu>i just follow visual studio jumping around and try to understand why
15:03<@Alberth>I run grep with parts of names that the function likely contains
15:05<Samu>there's 5 different results i see
15:05<Samu>with the bug it was jumping towards result 3 in that doc
15:06<Samu>with the fix, it jumps to 2, it seems
15:06<Samu>load the latest version of the same script that supports loading data from the saved version (the version of saved data must be equal or greater than AIInfo::MinVersionToLoad),
15:07<Samu>it skips version 4, because version 5 is compatible
15:07<Samu>step 1 is skipped
15:15<Samu> - hmm the explanation here
15:15<Samu>convinces me there's something wrong
15:16<Samu>As soon as one step succeeds, the sequence is stopped: Try to load the exact same version of the same AI.
15:16<Samu>it isn't doing exactly like this
15:18<Samu>as soon as one step succeeds, the sequence is stopped, hmm... that's not what I see it doing
15:19<Samu>Try to load the exact same version of the same AI. - it finds it, but it doesn't stop here, it is iterating over all versions
15:20<Samu>and gets the most up to date that is compatible
15:20<Samu>documentation says that it stops :(
15:21<Samu>it's not what it does in the code, or .... uhm... whatever
15:21<@Alberth>one of them is wrong, and it's not the code :p
15:22<@Alberth>although you should probably check the changes in that area, see what was changed last
15:25<Wormnest>I think loading the latest version is indeed the intention
15:25<Wormnest>Except maybe for the case where you explicitly loaded an older version of an ai
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15:27<Samu>i see, let me check what comes next
15:27<Samu>line 86 config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, false, _ai_saveload_is_random);
15:28<Samu>tries to match name and version
15:28<Samu>it does not find it, so next step is in line...
15:28<Samu>line 90 config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, -1, false, _ai_saveload_is_random);
15:29<Samu>only tries to match name now
15:30<Samu>name is still wormai.4, it takes .4 it splits it into 2 parts, wormai and 4
15:31<Samu> /* We want to load the latest version of this AI; so find it */
15:31<Samu> /* If we didn't find a match AI, maybe the user included a version */
15:32<Samu>yes, but why in the name?
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15:33<Samu> /* See if there is a compatible AI which goes by that name, with the highest * version which allows loading the requested version */
15:33<Samu>it's doing this cycle again, but now with the name separated from the version
15:34<Samu>versionParam is 4, even though it was -1 initially
15:35<Samu>it is still going to load version 5
15:35<Samu>but this time, it is discarding the saved data
15:36<Samu>DEBUG(script, 0, "The latest version of that AI has been loaded instead, but it'll not get the savegame data as it's incompatible.");
15:36<Samu>AI::Load(index, _ai_saveload_version); _ai_saveload_version at this point is -1
15:36<Samu>-1 means, discard whatever was saved
15:37<Samu> if (this->engine == NULL || version == -1) { LoadEmpty();
15:48<Samu>gonna try force_exact_match = true
15:49<Samu>line 86 of ai_sl.cpp, changing it to config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, true, _ai_saveload_is_random);
15:49<Samu>see what happens :p
15:50<Samu>oops, this is line 90, i'm stupid
15:50<Samu>config->Change(_ai_saveload_name, _ai_saveload_version, true, _ai_saveload_is_random);
15:51<Samu>line 86
15:55<Samu>0x000000caf1cfe340 "wormai.4.4" - keks, it's doing worse
15:58<Samu>it took wormai.4, and appended .4 at the end of it, now it's searching for wormai.4.4 on the system, there is no such version
15:58<Samu>there is wormai.4 and wormai.5
15:58<Samu>this is so messed up
16:00<Samu>and now, it is comparing wormai.4 to WormAI
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16:01<Samu>hmm :(
16:02<Samu>gonna try yet another approach
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16:07<Samu>yes, it loaded wormai.4 from the savegame
16:08<Samu>but.... hmm....
16:09<Samu>i'm not totally sure if this is without issues, needs more testing
16:10<Samu>if I do this to ai_sl.cpp, i must do it to game_sl.cpp as well
16:13<Samu> - here's what i'm testing
16:13<Samu>however, i'm worried about passing -1 as the version
16:13<Samu>dinner time, will check this later
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16:42<Samu>can't pass version -1 at that point :(
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17:09*Emiel slaps ST2 around a bit with a large fishbot
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17:53<Samu>i have another fix in testing
17:54<Samu>this one required me to write a bit of code
17:54<Samu>more like... copy pasting code
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18:09<Samu>this is yet my best approach
18:12<Samu>seems to be doing what the documentation wants it to do
18:16<Samu>ah man... not really
18:18<Samu>:( this is tiresome work
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19:50<Samu> - another attempt
19:51<Samu>I'm really tired
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21:04<Samu>why is the forum so slow at 2:00?
21:05<Samu>betweem 2:00 - 2:15 everyday it's slow :(
21:22<Samu>finally was able to post
21:23<Samu> - cyas, goodnight
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---Logclosed Fri May 27 00:00:33 2016