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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-01

---Logopened Wed Jun 01 00:00:40 2016
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03:45<andythenorth>o/
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04:27<andythenorth>hmm
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05:29<Wolf01>o/
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06:01<V453000>o/
06:02<Wolf01>oh, I tought the entire factoro tean went rogue... :D
06:02<Wolf01>*factorio
06:02<Wolf01>*totoro
06:02<@peter1138>?
06:02<Wolf01>hype
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06:03<V453000>not but I managed my new personal record of 21 hours of work per day XD
06:04<Wolf01>you are crazy... the entire team, take your time please
06:05<V453000>I already have some plans for the weekend so want to get the train wagon finished asap :) am pretty much done
06:09<Wolf01>I would have liked to have other plans for the weekend too... but I was ordered to work at the polling station for the elections, I hope they'll pay well
06:10<@peter1138>ordered? hmm
06:10<Wolf01>yes, there aren't volunteers so they pick up random people
06:10<Wolf01>and if you don't have a valid reason you must go to work
06:11<Wolf01>and I don't have a valid reason, because "I'm reassembling lego sets" it isn't
06:12<@peter1138>heh
06:12<V453000>what
06:12<V453000>where are you from?
06:13<Wolf01>italy
06:13<Wolf01>what do you expect?
06:13<V453000>idk, based on this volunteer system I expect something less democratic
06:14<V453000>in our country people volunteer to do this shit, probably cause it is ~ok payed
06:14<V453000>as a part time job for students it's nice
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06:16<Wolf01>yes, that's the same here, but heh.. not enough volunteers this time, the polling will be on sunday and the poll count will go throught the night, people need to go to work or school on monday, so they will resort to unemployed people
06:17<V453000>g
06:17<V453000>0.13 hype!
06:18<Wolf01>hype
06:21<V453000>I honestly can't wait to play ... the stuff I tested so far is great
06:21<V453000>the new inserters actually do add some more variety
06:22<V453000>and trainz, dem trainz
06:23<Wolf01>autorail hype
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06:43<Samu>hi
06:46<Samu>I'm not happy with Start AI, Stop AI, Reload AI 3-in-1 functionality
06:46<Samu>gonna have to change
06:48<Samu>more specifically, I don't liek accidentaly removal of dead AI Companies when there's dead AIs in the moving slots
06:50<Samu>before I get lost, I am posting here my ideas. Reload AI functionality is to be removed. It resorts to Stop AI.
06:51<Samu>Disable the ability to directly change configs of dead AIs
06:52<Samu>Instead, Stop it first, to make the Select AI button enabled
06:52<Samu>in this manner, there will be no more accidental removal of dead AI companies
06:53<Samu>moving slots will only swap between non-AI slots
06:56<@peter1138>Any idea what this guy is going on about?
06:57<Wolf01>redoing the ai/scripts UI
07:00<Samu>peter1138: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74694
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07:05<Leanden_>Hello all
07:05<Leanden_>any NML experts in here?
07:06<Leanden_>I have a question around loading of trains
07:16<@planetmaker>you should simply ask the question and hope your meta-question's answer is 'yes'
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07:29<Leanden_>I'm sure i've seen this in a set before but can't find any details on it, is there anyway to make it so that a passenger wagon can load and unload simultaneously? It doesnt make sense to me that you'd have to wait for all the passengers to get off before others can get on.
07:34<andythenorth>for a single vehicle, no, afaik
07:34<andythenorth>I am not going to go and read the station code for you though :)
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:34<@peter1138>Hmm, is it worth risking something from China with the branding... CooSpo?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>also, have you ever been to a train station?
07:34<andythenorth>if you have a ‘vehicle’ made up of multiple vehicles, then yes
07:35<andythenorth>as per CETS or Iron Horse
07:35<andythenorth>but it’s not worth it just to get a load/unload trick
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>if people try to enter before everyone left, that generally causes chaos
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07:56<Wolf01>V, steam disables the beta program at every update of factorio, do you know if it is intended or happens to others?
07:57<Wolf01>I just figured out there was a 0.12.34 update out since 5 days ago
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08:03<Wolf01>also I have a little suggestion which could be good for later 0.13 or 0.14, I know there are mods doing this but it will really help to avoid cluttering the inventory/building interface: inserters and pipes built with various configurations by simply rotating them with R
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08:19<@peter1138>I know nothing about Factorio. Are their devs here?
08:20<Wolf01>no, just one of their graphics designers
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08:26<V453000>I don't even understand what do you mean :D
08:27<Wolf01>something like this http://www.factoriomods.com/mods/side-inserters-by-gotlag
08:27<Wolf01>but with 1 instead of 3 for each type
08:28<Wolf01>also http://www.factoriomods.com/mods/rotatable-pipes
08:28<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: the train staff get angry with you in the subway if you try to get on while people are still exiting
08:28<Wolf01>just leave out the pumps part
08:29<V453000>so basically you want side inserters
08:29<V453000>just in 1 entity
08:29<Wolf01>yeah
08:30<V453000>that is never going to happen
08:30<V453000>and I hate that idea tbh
08:30<Wolf01>"want", I would like
08:33<V453000>1. it totally breaks the "first sight clarity" of the game. If you look at inserter now, you can see what it does, where from and to. 2. it removes parts of the puzzle and moves them to "select by gui" which is just a terrible concept, 3. same bullshit as "place to closest belt line" etc. This thing purely belongs to mods because it is just another "feature" that people can think of, but in fact it actually removes interesting gameplay for o
08:34<@peter1138>for o
08:37<V453000>?
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08:37<Wolf01>I can understand the puzzle game logic to give some challenge on building things, but I don't agree with 1, as you need to use the "info" mode for almost everything, and that shows the pickup and unload points of inserters
08:37<V453000>did it cut the message for you?
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08:37<Wolf01>yes
08:37<V453000>it actually removes interesting gameplay for oddly convenient features
08:37<V453000>yes, and as much as the info should be in main view, not just alt mode
08:39<Wolf01>changes like this should have the same weight as when ottd introduced the foundations thing
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08:41<V453000>openttd behaves quite a bit differently in this I think, and mainly in openttd it doesn't break any of the first sight effect
08:41-!-Islacrusez [~m4rek@host-92-20-160-214.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
08:42<Wolf01>it's just "let the user have more control on what the game automatically does", at least for the pipes part, for inserters is "it's a robot arm, why couldn't it be programmed for a different unload position?"
08:43<Wolf01>but foundations in ottd enabled the user to save lot of space and terraforming
08:43<V453000>well in openttd space matters, in factorio it doesn't
08:45<Wolf01>it does in the inventory
08:45<Wolf01>it isn't infinite
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08:46<Wolf01>I'm fine if it would be possible with a mod too, it doesn't need to be in the core
08:46<Wolf01>so everyone is happy
08:46<V453000>the inserters are
08:46<V453000>the pipes could have a bit more functions yes
08:47<V453000>but pipe control is a mod too
08:49<Wolf01>uhm, this could be a good one: http://www.factoriomods.com/mods/k-l-inserters
08:51<Wolf01>it's a bit overdone but I wouldn't simply use the diagonals
08:54<Samu>CluelessPlus is now crashing with "excessive CPU usage in valuator function"?
08:54<Samu>cluelessplus was stable
08:55<Islacrusez>I think some of the restrictions are very much part of the design; means you have to think more carefully about your layout; on the other hand, play your game your way - Factorio has much of the same essence as Minecraft
08:56<Islacrusez>which is amusing, since there's dozens of clones of MC, and the only game to recapture the essence of it is a completely unrelated game
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>there is always a fine line in gamedesign between making an interesting challenge and just throwing bullshit in the way to make things "difficult"
08:57<Samu>I'm getting some AIs crashing with this "excessive CPU usage in valuator function", and they're just starting
08:58<Wolf01>let's take the minecraft example, do you know they added the auto climb 1 block feature only in the last version?
08:58<Samu>like finding a location for HQ :( what changed?
08:58<Wolf01>while the pocket edition had it since... ever
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>they added an auto-climb 1 block?
08:58<Wolf01>and don't tell me the jump button was too out of reach in the pocket edition
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue about minecraft pocket
09:00<Wolf01>http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/16w20a <- A new 'Auto-jump' toggle has been added, which automatically makes the player jump when running towards a one block tall obstacle. Enabled by default, can be disabled in Options.
09:01<Islacrusez>pfft
09:02<Islacrusez>I'd have preferred a dirt halfstep
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>dirt/grass slabs would be handy
09:02<Wolf01>that's one of the things people were asking for since the alpha
09:02<Wolf01>just mod it...
09:02<Wolf01>like the player API mod :Q___
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>also, if the game could autogenerate with slabs, so you don't have to climb everything
09:03<Islacrusez>modifying terraingen? I have better things to do with my life than end it early
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, "just mod it" is a terrible answer
09:03<Wolf01>but then the game will be a lot easier, since jumping eats your hunger bar
09:03<andythenorth>hmm
09:03<andythenorth>I hate Road Hog less now
09:03<Wolf01>nice :)
09:04<Islacrusez>hungerbar wasn't part of the original game, so any losses to that aren't a huge deal
09:04<andythenorth>it takes a few clear days to get back into pixel art
09:04<Islacrusez>also balancing your game around dodgy mechanics is a bad idea
09:04<Wolf01>dirt slabs were in the pre-alpha
09:04<andythenorth>V453000: more rosters in my vehicle sets, or more cargo sprites? o_O
09:05<V453000>cargo
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>definitely cargo
09:06<Wolf01>Islacrusez, also I coulnd't understand the snow layers thing, do you know if it was added to the core game or not? I see no difference when it snows :(
09:07<Islacrusez>snow layers thing?
09:07<Samu>there is a problem with this fix -Fix [FS#6473]: [Script] Kill scripts, when a non-suspendable valuator call takes way too long.
09:07<Samu>AIs that never used to crash now start on starting
09:07<Samu>:(
09:07<Islacrusez>most recently I've only played TFC, which runs on 1.7.2; snow does build up but I don't know if it's one of TFC's additions or if it's from vanilla
09:08<Wolf01>oh, it's only in pocket edition
09:08<Samu>now crash* on starting
09:08<Wolf01>http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Snow_layer#Snowfall
09:09<Wolf01>but they say it's possible to create thicker snow layers in pc edition
09:09<@peter1138>It is.
09:10<Samu>NoCAB which is usually a CPU hog, doesn't crash
09:10<Samu>something's wrong
09:10<Wolf01>it seem the pc edition needs to keep up with the pocket edition now, 0.12 brought on pocket almost everything
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09:13<Islacrusez>can we blame M$?
09:13<Wolf01>I don't think so
09:14<Wolf01>they started the pocket edition before M$
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>can always blame M$
09:14<Wolf01>maybe we could blame M$ if they let pc version die
09:14<Samu>anyone? have you tried NoCAB with that -Fix [FS#6473]?
09:15<Samu>it's unplayable
09:15<Samu>stalls all the time
09:15<Wolf01>meh, now I don't know if I should replace all the inserters I have with the mod ones... I don't have enough space in the inventory, too many blueprints
09:17<Samu>gonna try release x64
09:17<Samu>that fix broke something
09:17<Samu>at least in debug x64
09:17<Wolf01>mmh the fast inserters are way too fast, unbalanced :|
09:17<Wolf01>*the mod's fast inserters
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09:19<Islacrusez>the only thing I'd probably ever mod about inserters is to return them to current-version functionality after the next update goes live
09:19<Alkel_U3>well, lately I got used to Homeworld's doubly fast fast inserters - I still feel a little guilty about that :-)
09:20<Wolf01>90° should be able to take 2 items in the same time of the straigt one, but it seem it takes 4 items
09:20<Wolf01>*straight
09:20<Islacrusez>Alkel_U3, what's wrong with just using two fast inserters?
09:21<Alkel_U3>Islacrusez: most of the times nothing, it's just that I play with Homeworld :-)
09:21<Islacrusez>scrub :P
09:22<Wolf01>ha! z-index bug
09:22<Alkel_U3>I'll definitely lay off most of the mods for the first .13 game to get the raw experience
09:23<Islacrusez>my current playthrough I'm trying to play environmentalist; so everything that will take mods is running on -80% power consumption, factory is entirely solar, and I cut down as few trees as possible
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09:24<Wolf01>underground pipe is drawn over the underground belt: http://imgur.com/qj99Oud
09:24<V453000>in my book environmentalist is the wrong approach :P
09:24<Alkel_U3>except for the trees, that's my usual approach, too
09:24<V453000>yeah, having a 0.13 vanilla game sounds good
09:25<Islacrusez>it makes for an interesting experience, since space is at more of a premium, and you're far more likely to need to think about layout of belts, assemblers and inserters; if that means three fast inserters for one material, you're going to need to get your other materials from the opposite side
09:26<Wolf01>V, when will you make moving shadows? The "sun" looks like a fading light bulb with static shadows :P
09:26<Islacrusez>I've also increased the density and size of material deposits (increasing oil to max) because the default values (for oil in particular) make train lines too nomadic for my tastes
09:26<V453000>XD probably never
09:26<V453000>but yeah interesting suggestion
09:26<V453000>if we had separate atlas for shadow which would be highly compressed, might work
09:26<Wolf01>even shadows at night...
09:26<Islacrusez>oil fields run out so fast on default, it's stoopid
09:26<V453000>as it wouldn't be too much
09:26<Alkel_U3>however, I have the resources spread apart very long distances, so I distribute light oil to the mining stations to power them with the oil steam boiler from ks_power - feels fun :-)
09:27<V453000>but in general the shadows are probably best being in the way they are to give the best plastic feeling
09:27<Wolf01>Islacrusez, just generate a map with high density oil fields (and stone fields too)
09:27<Samu>oh well, forgive me
09:28<Islacrusez>I generated a more appropriate map for this one; I bumped the density, size and rarity up by one, and up to max for oil
09:28<Samu>only seems to make debug slow
09:28<Samu>release isn't as slow
09:28<V453000>btw the new map gen seems to be awesome :P just saying
09:28<Alkel_U3>hype.
09:28<Wolf01>hype
09:29<Islacrusez>means that a train line can actually stay in use for a while, and especially becomes viable for oil; means I don't have to sit around trying to pump oil at 0.1/s and then cover it with speed boosters *rolls eyes*
09:30<Wolf01>so V, you are telling me you can't understand how that inserter works? http://imgur.com/og71ho1
09:30<V453000>it's hacky
09:31<Islacrusez>waaaaaaait a minute; inserters access three points, not just two
09:31<Islacrusez>that's sneaky
09:31<Wolf01>no, it can even load and unload from the same point
09:31<Islacrusez>how'd you manage that?
09:31<Wolf01>useless as a petrock but it can
09:32<Wolf01>http://www.factoriomods.com/mods/k-l-inserters
09:32<Islacrusez>ah, moddy-mod-modness
09:32<@peter1138>Is that a man standing there?
09:32<Islacrusez>thought that was some creative use of vanilla
09:32<Wolf01>oh, no, it can't
09:32<Wolf01>the gui prevents saving that configuration
09:33<Wolf01>it would have been cool to mark the checkbox to show it
09:34<V453000>peter1138: that's the player
09:34<Islacrusez>is there a mod for a lane-splitter? would be nice to have that in vanilla; like a 1x1 T-config belt section, which splits the lanes into opposite directions
09:35<Wolf01>there was one for 0.11
09:35<V453000>so like the same as splitter but 1x1? sounds dumb
09:35<V453000>ah lane splitting
09:35<V453000>I get your point
09:36<V453000>"meh", I grown to like the underground belt splitting too much
09:36<Islacrusez>eh, feels too much like a workaround
09:36<V453000>and since mixed belts are generally better, it is nice to require the extra puzzle for them
09:36<Islacrusez>also looks ugly as sin
09:36<V453000>matter of taste
09:36<Islacrusez>also takes up a lot of room if you need both the lanes to continue
09:37<Islacrusez>smart inserters will do it, but that's a bit clunky
09:37<V453000>but exactly
09:37<V453000>you have multiple options
09:37<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/oVDReNu <-
09:37<V453000>one of mall and weaker, one is bigger and perfect, both reach a rather powerful thing
09:37<Wolf01>but as soon as something little change in the belts handling, you are sure this won't work anymore
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09:37<V453000>if you have a lane splitter, suddenly there is just 1 uninteresting option
09:38<Wolf01>you can put a lane splitter as a research for mid-late game
09:39<Islacrusez>Wolf01, is that an item sorter for a mixed belt?
09:39<V453000>mod :)
09:39<Islacrusez>V453000, shouldn't have to mod something in if it should already be in the game :P
09:39<Wolf01>yeah
09:39<V453000>that is the thing, it shouldn't
09:39<Islacrusez>Wolf01, I believe they're patching that out by changing the splitter mechanics
09:39<Wolf01>eh, V, lane splitter is not possible anymore even with mods
09:39<V453000>it is another convenience feature which removes complexity
09:40<V453000>that it isn't possible with mods doesn't mean it is a good idea to put it in the main game
09:40<Islacrusez>Wolf01, they *did* appreciate the creativity in designing it though, which was cool
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09:40<V453000>I generally view one huge difference between openttd and factorio - openttd has very few pieces (like 10?) with which you construct the whole train game. Factorio has like hundred of pieces with which you construct the whole factory.
09:40<Wolf01>once you understand the concept it's easy, but it's a delicate contraption
09:40<Islacrusez>V453000, it doesn't add complexity though
09:41<V453000>having less features output variety of constructions is a good thing
09:41<Islacrusez>V453000, having all the tools available is important too
09:41<V453000>it's a puzzle, having everything isn't always the best
09:41<Islacrusez>V453000, wanna go back to pre- pre-signals? pre- PBS?
09:42<V453000>it is similar shit to "signals in tunnels"in openttd
09:42<V453000>that is completely different Islacrusez
09:42<Wolf01>ehm, V... you have inserter, belt (with underground), pipe (with underground), factory, rail, all other things are just different shapes of the same things
09:42<V453000>presignals and PBS add stuff that other things can't do at all
09:42<V453000>each of them has a distinct use in various situations
09:42<Islacrusez>V453000, it's exactly the same
09:43<V453000>lane splitting is already possible, you would just add a cheat tile which does it in 1 square
09:43<Islacrusez>V453000, if you can't use a lane splitter, you just bring in a different belt; same as if you can't make a junction you just bring in a different line
09:43<Wolf01>2 squares
09:43<Islacrusez>3
09:43<V453000>still
09:43<Islacrusez>technically 4, but you get the idea
09:43<V453000>the smallest versions of the current one can take like 5 tiles I believe
09:43<V453000>which is kind of fine as well? : P
09:44<Islacrusez>you need an input, two outputs, and the tile itself
09:44<Wolf01>http://www.factoriomods.com/mods/belt-utilities
09:44<Islacrusez>what about depot scheduling, replacing the old forced-depot-signaling workaround?
09:45<Islacrusez>you could already force a train to go to a depot, why was it added as a go-to option?
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09:45<V453000>that I classify as utility tasks, not actual gameplay
09:46<Wolf01>it was gameplay when it wasn't automatized
09:47<V453000>depotting trains is pure bullshit
09:47<V453000>that's just slave labour
09:47<Wolf01>that's why they removed it from locomotion
09:47<V453000>and scheduled depotting allows refit and other shit
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>yaay... youtube broke the subscription list... no matter how often i click on "list mode", it stays in "grid mode"
09:49<Islacrusez>so you're telling me that because you're proud of some hacky little contraption that doesn't even make sense, I should be forced to either do the same or bring in another conveyor line, which is a utility task
09:49<Wolf01>isn't the underground belt lane blocking abuse a total bullshit too? I would like to have a decent dedicated feature instead of abusing on a misterious feature of the game
09:50<Islacrusez>^
09:51<Wolf01>I could even stay there all the day grabbing the materials from a mixed belt with "F" and move them manually on the right crates
09:51<V453000>if the graphics were hinting the functionality more, would you be fine with it?
09:51<V453000>adding a new entity for no new functionality is not great
09:52<Wolf01>the underground belt entrances is a misuse and even hard to achieve sometimes
09:52<Islacrusez>adding something which creates a functionality that previously had to be obtained by exploits IS
09:52<V453000>should everything be easy to achieve?
09:52<V453000>use bots anywhere if you want easy to achieve?
09:52<Wolf01>because the game tries to make a working underground belt with entrance and exit
09:53<Wolf01>as it's done now it's like building only a bridgehead in ottd
09:53<Islacrusez><Eddi|zuHause> there is always a fine line in gamedesign between making an interesting challenge and just throwing bullshit in the way to make things "difficult"
09:53<Wolf01>I would add a splitter entity and make the exit of the underground belt mandatory once you placed the entrance
09:54<Wolf01>I can't see any reason for having only an entrance or only an exit besides the abuse of the lane blocking
09:54<Islacrusez>Factorio is very clear on where it expect the challenge to be, and makes all other parts of the experience as easy as possible
09:55<V453000>you can line block AND use it as underground belt to move shit somewhere?
09:55<Islacrusez>now you're just stretching
09:55<Wolf01>line block is a bad feature imho.
09:55<Wolf01>it should block bot the lines
09:56<V453000>you can block both the lines with circuit networks now, yes
09:56<Wolf01>the graphics shows it block the entire perpendicular belt
09:56<Islacrusez>V453000, being deliberately dense?
09:57<V453000>the graphics are kind of on the edge, it barely makes sense but works
09:57<V453000>dense?
09:57<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/ZQy1fUp now show me how I'm supposed to even think this contraption will work
09:58<V453000>that's why I asked if you would accept the feature if the visual explanation was better
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09:59<Wolf01>no, because it will stay as "entrance", and entrance means entrance, it's like you have a double door on a building with one door closed and state that the door is "one way"
09:59<Wolf01>because it blocks the other "lane"
10:00<Islacrusez>is changing the game's graphics to justify your exploit even remotely good game design?
10:00<V453000>game design wise I still do think it is a nice touch
10:01<Wolf01>but in 0.14 will change and it merges both lanes instead of blocking one, what will you do? change the graphics again?
10:01<V453000>yeah, except it won't?
10:01<V453000>all entitiy graphics are made with their functionality in mind
10:02<Islacrusez><V453000> all entitiy graphics are made with their functionality in mind
10:02<Islacrusez>quote of the fucking day right there
10:02<Wolf01>this one obviously is a misuse because the graphics is well fitted for an "entrance"
10:02<V453000>I won't say it's perfect. :)
10:03<Wolf01>so it should be fixed with "block both lanes"
10:03<Islacrusez>V453000, http://imgur.com/ZQy1fUp explain this shit right here if your previous comment is supposed to be true?
10:03<Islacrusez>if the graphics were made with the intended use in mind, HOW IS YOUR USE INTENDED?
10:04<Wolf01>to me it looks like those multiple tile span graphics for stations in ottd, I'm not able to build a station like the designer of the grf intended
10:05<Wolf01>also it glitches like hell
10:05<V453000>ok : )
10:05<Wolf01>or at least it did at that time I tried it
10:05<V453000>but yes, I am not saying the visual solution of the UG belt trick is perfect
10:06<V453000>what I meant to say was that in general, changing functionality can easily cause change of graphics, obviously
10:06<Wolf01>yes, agreed, but we are talking about an abuse of functionality
10:07<V453000>yes, and whether it is actually abuse is questionnable
10:07<Wolf01>I think that only works because inserters should be able to pickup from the entrances/exits too
10:07<Wolf01>which is nonsense too because it has a fucking roof
10:08<V453000>yeah since picking stuff up from a closed chest makes more sense :P
10:08<V453000>but yeah perhaps it should havea smaller roof
10:09<Wolf01>if you can make the roof half tile long I could even agree with you
10:09<V453000>that is what I was asking about twice now
10:09<V453000>just change visual solution
10:09<Wolf01>but it's still an entrance and not a lane block or a splitter
10:10<Wolf01>it's like using an inserter as a biter beater
10:10<Wolf01>why not? inserters move an might hurt you
10:10<V453000>no, logistics and biters are completely different region
10:11<Wolf01>also trains and a corpse when you are on their path
10:11<V453000>it is just giving extra things to the belt puzzle. Not intutitive probably, probably also not visually perfect, but functionally fine.
10:11<NGC3982>In the latest version, was there any changes on how the dedicated server works?
10:12<NGC3982>For some reason, i notice that it doesn't use that much resources any more.
10:12<NGC3982>It's really nice.
10:12<Wolf01>even the laser bits which follow the biters... I was taught that light moves in straight line... or biters have a lot of mass?
10:13<V453000>now you are just picking at random flaws of the game, we can do that for the whole day probably, and yes, it is one of the things which will likely end up on 0.14 roadmap
10:14<Wolf01>but I'm fine with those, it's like on starcraft, you shot and you hit, what I'm not fine with is the abuse of a hidden feature
10:14<Wolf01>see it like an undocumented API
10:15<Wolf01>it's not documented so it may change at will
10:15<V453000>isn't it in the player guide? :P
10:16<Wolf01>even worse :D a misuse in the player guide
10:16<Islacrusez>pretty sure it's not in the ingame tips; if it was intended, it'd be in there
10:16<V453000>if it wasn
10:17<Wolf01>don't give him suggestions XD
10:17<V453000>if it wasnt intended, it wouldnt be coded that way
10:17<V453000>and yes the tutorials and guides are highly work in progress
10:18<V453000>I wouldn't be surprised if the belt trick is utilized somewhere in a pre-built factory in some mission as a thing to discover
10:20<Wolf01>I still think it is working like that because of some weird mechanics they needed to tweak, but if you add a better and fitting graphics and with a proper tutorial and maybe with the ability to override the exit building (since you can't rotate the exit because automatically aligns), I might really change my mind
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10:21<V453000>override exit building?
10:21<Wolf01>try buiding 2 entrances on straight line with the same belt
10:21<Wolf01>not 1 entrance and 1 exit, just 2 entrances
10:23<Wolf01>mmh, no, not this case, it was another edge case I found with the entrances
10:23<V453000>ah that you mean
10:23<V453000>that they connect
10:23<Wolf01>there is an impossible configuration to build
10:24<V453000>basically you can't have 2 entrances going in opposite directions
10:24<Wolf01>yes that
10:26<V453000>that's probably the only functional downside of the dual-feature use I can see, yes
10:26<V453000>but I would again just throw it to the bag "part of the puzzle" :P
10:26<Wolf01>and I still think exits should be mandatory, having orphaned bits of entrances/exits for both pipes and belts don't add anything to the complexity, for belt it's only useful for the lane blocking
10:27<Wolf01>and if I lose a pipe exit in the middle of a forest, I'll disassemble the forest to get rid of it
10:27<Islacrusez>you could use that same argument to say that pre-signals aren't necessary... the limits of regular signals are "part of the puzzle"
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10:27<Wolf01>I send the swarm of construction robots to do the trick
10:28<Islacrusez>the worst one is ending up with an odd number of pipe to grounds afteer building a petrochemical complex
10:28<V453000>no because presignals add a TON of new functions, adding a new lane blocker which does the same (plus ability to save 1 tile), does not add any new functionality at all
10:28<Islacrusez>V453000, tough shit; it's "part of the puzzle"
10:28<V453000>Wolf01: you can build them like power poles now when you drag them
10:28<Islacrusez>see how bad of an argument that is?
10:29<V453000>no Islacrusez, presignals add things which are simply absolutely impossible with block signals
10:29<Islacrusez>V453000, doesn't matter; part of the puzzle
10:29<Wolf01>pre-signals were added to get rid of a bad problem
10:29<V453000>that makes no sense
10:29<Wolf01>(junction blocking)
10:30<Islacrusez>V453000, doesn't need to
10:30<Islacrusez>it's an awful handwave, don't use it
10:30<Wolf01>here we are arguing about using the wrong entity to avoid adding a dedicated entity to do the same work
10:31<Islacrusez>at this point I'm just attacking his argument, because his argument is bad and he should feel bad
10:31<Wolf01>the same could be "why there are waypoints in ottd? just use stations with the right order"
10:31<V453000>yeah I should feel bad
10:32<V453000>all I can say is go fuck yourself at this point honestly. I love the game, I love working on it, and I am not saying everything is perfect. But I demand reasonable discussion.
10:32<Islacrusez>you're welcome to discuss the merits of one vs the other; "part of the puzzle" is *not* one of them
10:32<V453000>I am welcome? Do I get your permission to discuss something? Thank you good lord
10:33<Islacrusez>you know exactly what I mean
10:33<@peter1138>Why should anyone feel bad? That's shitty.
10:34<V453000>because someone hates your hidden/hacky/tricky feature peter1138 :) obviously
10:34<V453000>every game developer would have deep depressions every day if that was to apply
10:34<V453000>there is always someone who will dislike something
10:34<@peter1138>Speaking of which, I have that rainbow colours patch somewhere...
10:34<V453000>=D
10:34<Islacrusez>peter1138, because bad logic is bad
10:34<@peter1138>V453000, look at what happened to Notch... sad :S
10:34<V453000>I don't follow Notch too much but I guess he is kind of lost atm
10:35<V453000>not knowing what to do, not being entertained either
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly "happened"?
10:35<Samu>just finished reworking the way slots can be edited
10:36<Samu>no more accidental removal of dead AI companies
10:36<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: one thing in factorio has basically 2 uses, one of the uses isn't very intuitive. 2 people demand this entity to be split into two so it doesn't add new functions, just splits it to be more intuitive. And because I dare to defend the method of two-in-one, I should feel bad because yes.
10:36<Samu>unless the user really clicks Stop AI
10:36<Samu>that will actually remove it, and it's not accidental
10:36<Samu>it's what the user wants
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, my uninformed intuition tells me to be on the "split it" side
10:38<V453000>perhaps yes but whichever opinion you have, it doesn't make you a terrible person
10:38<Wolf01>no V, you shouldn't feel bad, because I see your reasons, you should feel bad because you said "1. it totally breaks the "first sight clarity" of the game. If you look at inserter now, you can see what it does, where from and to." and then you tried to defend a misfeature which does exactly the opposite
10:39<V453000>that is clear differences as well
10:39<Wolf01>this is what I call "you are confused"
10:39<@peter1138>Feeling bad sucks.
10:40<Wolf01>maybe with a better graphics it could have sense, but I'm not convinced
10:40<V453000>if inserter can work in various ways, you need gui assistance to "understand what will it do". with the belt, once you learn how the thing works, it is consistently going to do that, without any extra gui exlpanation
10:40<V453000>so if you want to tell me to feel bad for defending a (perhaps questionnable and debatable) argument, again, sexual intercourse with self suggestion? :P
10:40<V453000>feeling bad is nope
10:40<Wolf01>no, you just need the alt (info) mode even to know how an inserter works, there are the arrows for that too
10:41<V453000>exactly, which is shit
10:41<V453000>you could play dwarf fortress instead
10:41<Wolf01>also with a splitter you have a visual representation of what it does
10:41<Islacrusez>V453000, the reason I'm telling you to feel bad about your argument is because it is very closely related to "because I said so"
10:41<Wolf01>an UB entrance is not a splitter
10:42<@peter1138>What is dus... http://factoryidle.com/
10:42<V453000>peter1138: the thing which about every programmer of factorio plays at the office you mean? :D
10:43<V453000>Islacrusez: I gave clear argument to every of my points, or at least attempted to explain my throught process. Because I said so doesn't apply.
10:43<@peter1138>heh
10:44<Wolf01>and I just explained your argument does not make sense, you have valid reasons but they go in different ways
10:44<Islacrusez>"it's part of the puzzle" argument is literally "this thing adds a step to completing a task, I say this is how it should be"
10:44<Wolf01>because if you state that something needs a clear way to tell what it is, then it should apply to everything, and not only at what you don't like
10:44<V453000>it does make sense, it just doesn't prioritize the things you are trying to achieve
10:45<V453000>Wolf01: one thing is intuitiveness at the first sight, and readability after learning the "symbols"
10:45<V453000>side inserters are not visible in either, belt trick only at the first sight case
10:46<Wolf01>UB entrance as splitter is conter intuitive at his top
10:46<Wolf01>its*
10:46<V453000>I never said it is intuitive
10:46<V453000>I just don't view that as a problem
10:46<Wolf01>I spent an entire afternoon to learn how to make that mixed belt splitter
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>you literally said "intuitive" 3 lines above
10:47<V453000>Wolf01: does that mean you had fun playing the game?
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10:47<Wolf01>no, I was frustrated, and I put it in blueprints to not think to it again
10:48<V453000>XD
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: "playing the game" and "having fun" are two completely separate things
10:48<V453000>it's not like you HAVE to use mixed belts
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>loads of games are played that are not fun (anymore)
10:48<V453000>many people even created a religion where they hate mixed belts to all hell
10:48<Islacrusez>Eddi|zuHause, a good game is one where playing it and having fun are the same; like factorio
10:48<Wolf01>it's like "you don't have to put a coal patch in the middle of a iron ore field"
10:49<V453000>why would you play a game if you don't have fun doing it ._. did our culture get that far?
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: there are psychological factors at play here
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: look up "skinner box"
10:49<Islacrusez>V453000, most MMOs
10:49<Islacrusez>also most facebook games
10:49<Wolf01>so, do you know what to do now? take your 3d graphics software thing and let make it intuitive :)
10:50<Samu>Reload AI functionality is now only part of AI Debug window
10:50<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: , Islacrusez , still feels like that's a horribly broken thing to do if you aren't having fun wasting your time? XD
10:51<Wolf01>not broken, but weird mechanics I won't rely on too much
10:51<V453000>Wolf01: it probably isn't so simple, nothing in factorio graphics is simple. But I can have a look at it someday. now, wagons :P
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that's the problem, sometimes the brain does broken things
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10:51<V453000>well then why care about the game being broken if people play it anyway? :P point? :D
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that's why there are so many terrible games out there :p
10:52<V453000>XD
10:53<Wolf01>that's why people fix games by themselves with grfs ;)
10:53<Wolf01>or mods
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>where "terrible" does not mean "badly programmed", but "exploitive mechanics"
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's also how casinos work, btw.
10:54<Wolf01>http://i.imgur.com/MSQl9hd.jpg <- even if they reach this point
10:54<V453000>yeah Wolf01 , on which they spend hundreds of hours to the point where they don't enjoy playing the game anymore XD admittedly factorio mods are much easier to make so this problem isn't that bad
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>be flashy to get as many people in as possible, and keep them in there for as much money to squeeze out as possible
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>there is (almost) no redeeming value for the people going in there
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>because the whole system is designed to keep them in there beyond the point where they have fun
10:55<V453000>well there is always the last resort of selling it with boob advertisements :P
10:55<V453000>$$$$$
10:56<Wolf01>oh god... I need to make a video of this
10:57<Wolf01>inserters fighting for a crate
10:58<V453000>ps, my 3d grahpics software just decided not to render shit XD
10:58<V453000>just no, you get 1 frame and that's enough :D
10:58<V453000>Blender. Issues you never thought could happen.
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10:58<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/OgPzntl <- this is pure awesomeness
10:58<@Alberth>hihi
10:58<Wolf01>o/
10:59<Wolf01>I think I'll let them there for the rest of the game
10:59<Samu>my next goal is to allow reset to reset resetable ai parameters, instead of just disabling the reset button alltogether
10:59<V453000>I thought one of them should be the first?
10:59<@Alberth>turtles? :)
10:59<V453000>what are they doing Wolf01 ?
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i'm sure if you go to the blender people they tell you it's all intuitive and changing it "breaks the puzzle"
10:59<Wolf01>moving the crate back and forth
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and if you're not having fun, why use blender in the first place?
10:59<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: no, they would probably agree with me that it is an issue, and not do anything about it :P
11:00<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: because it is productive? your argumetns don't work very well here :P
11:00<Wolf01>*cough* even a splitter is productive *cough* /me chokes
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO, if you're not making a physical thing, it's not "productive"
11:01<V453000>that's actually fairly offensive thing to say to a 3D artist Eddi|zuHause
11:01<V453000>or a programmer
11:01<V453000>or yeah
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>sure, but also banker, manager, ...
11:01<Wolf01>mmmh, how do you record a video without fraps or gamecam?
11:01<V453000>so, nobody is productive?
11:02<Wolf01>PSR here we go
11:02<V453000>idk I used bandicam at some point, I know someone used nvidia capture thing
11:02<Samu>i use bandicam
11:02<Samu>but openttd cant run in fullscreen mode
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO, jobs separate into 3 categories: "productive", "creative" and "bullshit"
11:03<@Alberth>you chatting here is not productive, so chat software is bullshit :p
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>as a graphics designer, you're easily in the "creative" part
11:03<V453000>I can see art being creative at the first stage when you design/sketch things, but the rest is pretty much just productive
11:03<@peter1138>openttd can run in fullscreen mode
11:03<@Alberth>non-artists see that different
11:04<Wolf01>meh... recorded a double screen video...
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>this channel is also mildly in the "creative" part
11:04<V453000>this channel is fully bullshit part atm :P
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>hence "mildly" :p
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>there is a weak argument that "manager" is in the "productive" category, if it enables more people to be "productive", but a lot of times it's leaning towards "bullshit"
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>investment banking is almost completely "bullshit"
11:06<Wolf01>meh the windows games recording tool can't "see" factorio
11:06<Islacrusez>Wolf01, I love how the human npc seems to be giving the pair a strange look
11:06<V453000>regardless, 3D art is hard work where you just construct something. In a computer, virtually? Yes.
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i did not say that "creative" is not "hard work"
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>also "bullshit" can be "hard work"
11:08<Wolf01>the screenhot works, why not the recording?
11:08<@Alberth>how physical is a thing if you need non-physical things to realize it?
11:09<V453000>so, 3d printing_
11:09<V453000>?
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>3d printing is "productive"
11:09<@peter1138>Does Factorio use a 3D engine?
11:09<V453000>computers are physical, data is physical
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>normal printing is also "productive"
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>putting something on a screen is "creative"
11:10<@peter1138>In my experience those "game recording" tools hook into the 3D rendering stuff.
11:10<Islacrusez>if data is physical, why is putting it on screen not productive?
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>data is not physical.
11:10<Islacrusez>apparently it depends on who you ask
11:10<Islacrusez>>.>
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>positioning and hooking up a screen is "productive"
11:10<Islacrusez><.<
11:10<Wolf01>windows has that thing which popups every time I play (the game toolbar) but with factorio doesn't seem to work
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>showing images on a screen is "creative"
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>btw, printing something so another person can scan it is "bullshit"
11:12<V453000>so painting on canvas is productive while making renders not_ same with statue-model_
11:12<@Alberth>always add a disclaimer to stuff you print "do not scan this"
11:12<V453000>?
11:12<V453000>XD
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: yes.
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11:13<V453000>I dont get that eddi, the process is almost identical
11:13<Islacrusez>hey here's a thought; if a lane splitter is simply a single tile with two belts in opposite directions and is treated exactly as such, it could be used to invert two mixed belts into two opposite mixed belts
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that's not the point, the point is the end product.
11:13<Islacrusez>how huge would your mechanism be to match that, V453000?
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: coming up with what to draw on the canvas may be "creative", but the act of physically swinging the hand to put colour on is "productive"
11:14<V453000>Islacrusez: how is that related?
11:14<V453000>same as in computer eddi, precisely
11:15<Islacrusez>I can make it related if you really want, but I'm simply asking a question
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11:15<Islacrusez>wee can launch back into the argument if you *really* want, but I have no intention to do so
11:15<V453000>big is answer, as you are aware
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: part of the point is that "productive" tasks require raw materials, where "creative" tasks do not
11:16<V453000>weird logic
11:16<Samu>who worked on the last trunk change? frosh?
11:16<Islacrusez>I'm not sure throwing paint at a canvas and calling it art is "productive"... then again I'd hesitate to call it "creative"...
11:17<Islacrusez>can we say BS is a subset of both of those?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the other part of the point is that the result of "creative" tasks can easily be multiplied (because more copies of it don't require more material), where "productive" cannot
11:18<Samu>CluelessPlus is crashing with "excessive CPU usage in valuator function" with the recent trunk fix :(
11:18<Samu>it builds the first route, then tried to build an HQ, and crashes with this error
11:18<Samu>cluelessplus was one of the most stable AI I've ever tested
11:19<Samu>and now this :(
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>Islacrusez: a job is "bullshit" if the only result is that it creates more work for other people without making those people either more "creative" or more "productive"
11:21<Islacrusez>Eddi|zuHause, what about "productive" tasks that serve only to appease one of the pure BS employees?
11:21<Islacrusez>personally I'd extend the BS class to them
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11:21<Samu>I see this chat is quite busy now
11:22<@Alberth>Samu: what do you expect us to do or say?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "bullshit" has a viral property
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>if a "productive" or "creative" task is infected by a "bullshit" task, it becomes "bullshit" as well
11:23<@Alberth>we all die with as much money as we are born, thus all money-related things are BS ?
11:23<Wolf01>Islacrusez, I'm fine with lane separators being 2 tiles like the core splitters, I don't really need to spare one tile, I just don't rely on the underground belt contraption as separator, as it even inverts the output
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: not necessary "all", because you CAN build up an inheritance for your offspring.
11:24<Samu>I don't know really, but... the fix may raise the number of AIs crashing
11:24<Samu>if something as simple as building an HQ triggers it to stop :(
11:24<V453000>Islacrusez: 5x4 for a lane swapper it seems
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but yes, money has a large "bullshit" element to it
11:25<Samu>map wasn't even large, it was a 64x64 map
11:25<Islacrusez>Wolf01, logically there's no logical reason for a lane separator to be more than one tile; its entire functionality is the equivalent of two belts facing opposite directions, except instead of two incoming belts you have to lanes of one belt
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>after all, money was invented to pay for armies (which are "bullshit")
11:26*andythenorth draws trucks
11:26<Islacrusez>V453000, not nearly as large as I imagined, but still a significant area for something that, logically at least, could occur on a single tile
11:26<V453000>anythin can occur
11:26<@Alberth>hi hi andy
11:27<Wolf01>Islacrusez, I'm talking of the bottom right one http://i.imgur.com/bQ4oiRv.jpg
11:27<Wolf01>how do you do that with 1 belt?
11:27<V453000>now I fit it into 3x3, 8 tiles
11:28<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/belt-swapper.png
11:28<Islacrusez>Wolf01, [<>] (single tile); imagine a belt tile, but half the belt goes one way and half the belt goes the opposite direction, heading outward
11:28<V453000>wait no that doesn't swap it XD
11:28<V453000>nvm
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11:29<V453000>how to overengineer XD
11:29-!-pereba_ is now known as pereba
11:29<Wolf01>V, please... the train cars XD
11:29<V453000>no :) patience
11:29<Islacrusez>Wolf01, using the rules of how belts interact, the result is a lane splitter with one incoming belt, or a lane swapper with two belts from opposite direction
11:30<Islacrusez>Wolf01, more importantly, it follows all known rules of belts
11:30<Wolf01>Islacrusez, ok, I figured it out now
11:31<andythenorth>‘draws’ :P
11:31*andythenorth copies and pastes trucks :P
11:31<andythenorth>V453000: what’s your favourite photoshop tool? :P
11:31<V453000>fixed https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/belt-swapper.png
11:31<V453000>andythenorth: depends :) for general work, place linked because other programs don't seem to have it
11:31<V453000>what I use most, brush? :D
11:32<Islacrusez>you may have misunderstood what I was asking; try four items on two belts from opposite direction; swap the pairs onto two outgoing belts
11:32<V453000>part of the puzzle Islacrusez :)
11:32<Islacrusez>I have no idea why this might be done, presumably for some sort of 2nd or 3rd stage manufacturing step fed from a primary bus
11:32<V453000>so that MOAR isn't just adding shit, but adding problems
11:32<Wolf01>V, just invert the 2 tunnels
11:33<V453000>Wolf01: there are definitely many approaches to it
11:33<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/bKiBvBx
11:33<Islacrusez>V453000, I'm not disputing that at this point; I just want to know how big the mechanism would be to actually do it with your method
11:33<V453000>nice
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: so the tunnel entrances are just there to stop half of the belt?
11:34<V453000>yeah Eddi|zuHause
11:34<Wolf01>yes eddi
11:34<V453000>ridiculous, isn't it :P
11:34<Wolf01>yes
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that is terrible...
11:34<Wolf01>but it works...
11:35<Wolf01>and it isn't even so hard to understand
11:35*andythenorth quick mask
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>why can't you just have a thing that splits the two lanes of a belt into two individual belts?
11:35<V453000>andythenorth: :)
11:35<Wolf01>you just need to figure out that a contraption like that is a lane inverter
11:35<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: extra entity, same result
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>see, that is "bullshit".
11:36<V453000>XD gg
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>you just throw more things in the way to something that should be simple.
11:36<V453000>yeah, should is very debatable
11:37<Islacrusez>as we very much debated earlier
11:38<Wolf01>eddi, could you tell me what is this http://imgur.com/oVDReNu at first glance?
11:38<Islacrusez>now we're just comparing the actual method to accomplish certain tasks with my proposed approach (single-tile) vs the current system (creative use of tunnel entrances and exits)
11:38<V453000>Wolf01: obviously nobody familiar with the game would, because it isn't intuitive, as we agreed earlier :)
11:39<Islacrusez>Wolf01, interestingly that actually exploits two separate mechanics in a veery creative way; even the guys who make the game had to take a while to figure out how that damn thing works xD
11:39<Wolf01>and I had to copy it too
11:39<Wolf01>but now I think I could expand that shit to more items
11:39<Islacrusez>V453000, I think the point of that was not that it's not intuitive to someone not familiar with the game; it's not even intuitive to the people who made the game; basically anyone not familiar with that particular mechanism will have a hard time reading it
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: "at first glance" is a non-issue
11:40<V453000>which is fine that you need to learn the "symbolism of th game" first
11:40<V453000>and yes, the splitter trick has been discussed, I am not sure if it is fixed in 0.13 actually
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11:41<V453000>but intention is to fix it eventually
11:42<andythenorth>well it’s nice that factorio keeps this community together and active :)
11:43<johannes_>Hello, can please someone (of the programmers) please quickly answer question (2) from http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=72741&p=1169799#p1169799 ? I need to know it to continue...
11:44<V453000>andythenorth: XD
11:44<V453000>soooo what is the opinion on the new stack inserteR?
11:45<Islacrusez>V453000, not a huge fan, but will have to try it to see
11:45<andythenorth>oops, can’t encode RGB pngs :P
11:45<Islacrusez>it'll make my current train unloaders obsolete I think
11:46<Wolf01>V, do you know we can use your arguments against you? but it's ok, it would help in some cases
11:46<V453000>it certainly changes some things, but inside of factories it actually does make an interesting mechanic
11:46<V453000>yes Wolf01 ?
11:47<Islacrusez>V453000, I haven't really gone through and checked how it'd affect my builds
11:48<Islacrusez>I only suspect my train unloader would probably no longer need 5 fast inserters a side to saturate a belt if stack inserters are used
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11:48<andythenorth>can we have inserters in openttd? o_O
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11:49<@Alberth>soon :p
11:50<Flygon>....
11:50<@Alberth>you could perhaps make animated station tiles?
11:50<Wolf01>the most waited feaure is the blueprint book
11:50<Flygon><Islacrusez> I only suspect my train unloader would probably no longer need 5 fast inserters a side to saturate a belt if stack inserters are used
11:50<Flygon>I'm not sure if we're talking about OpenTTD or Factorio
11:50<Flygon>I only just walked in
11:50<Wolf01>and if that wouldn't be in 0.13 I won't update until 0.14
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: this channel is almost never about openttd :p
11:53<Flygon>True
11:53<Flygon>Hahaha
11:53<Flygon>Anyway
11:54<Flygon>Hyvaa yota :3
11:54<andythenorth>openttd is no longer about the game :P
11:54<Islacrusez>Flygon, Factorio appears to have stolen the spotlight in this channel; which is understandable, both games are very much the art of logistics
11:54<Islacrusez>someone should mod TTD into Factorio
11:55<@Alberth>factorio already has trains, afaik
11:56<Islacrusez>Alberth, I mean the type of play; imagine starting a game with pre-built factories and mines spawning on the map, and you have to connect them with only belts, trains, and pipes, unable to build new factories
11:56<Islacrusez>[simplified, of course]
11:56<Wolf01>Islacrusez, you did browse the mod section, you didn't?
11:57<Wolf01>there is a mod where you play INSIDE a factorio train
11:57<Islacrusez>Wolf01, hah xD
11:58<Samu>i want to reset settings that aren't "anchored" as you put it
11:58<Samu>hmm...
11:58<Samu>line 136 script_config.cpp
11:58<V453000>fuck it, wagon is rendering, I go play 0.13 :P
11:58<V453000>hype?
11:59<Wolf01>hype
11:59<Samu>or rather... uhm... right, brb
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>no hype
12:00<Samu>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob;f=src/ai/ai_gui.cpp;h=a0720e2ea50483529ac0aa4e56c5dfcdbecd076e;hb=HEAD#l524
12:00<Samu>line 524 ai_gui.cpp
12:01<Samu>it resets settings regardless if they're anchored
12:01<Samu>I want to prevent anchored settings to be reset, what to do
12:03<Islacrusez>Wolf01, actually not looked at the mods much; want to finish my seecond vanilla playthrough first
12:03<Wolf01>I didn't even finish the tutorial
12:03<V453000>nub!
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12:04<Wolf01>got to the part where you have to rebuild the mining outpost and fix the defences, and started to waste time aggroing the biters
12:05<Wolf01>now I'm playing survival and I'm drilling my way throught the nests
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>i played through the demo a long time ago
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>didn't scratch my itches
12:06<supermop>games don't really scratch any itch for me
12:06<Wolf01>I purchased it as soon as I started the demo
12:06<supermop>except maybe go
12:07<Islacrusez>my playthrough was tutorial, campaign, one playthrough on default to learn the game, and then I modified map generation to fit how I wanted to play it and start a second playthrough for pure enjoyment
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12:30<Wolf01>/me is going to watch warcraft (the movie)
12:30<Wolf01>so...
12:30<Wolf01>'night :D
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12:36<supermop>http://www.vistametals.com/rolling_slab_ingot.php
12:37<supermop>andythenorth: ^
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>what the hell is a "rolling slab ingot"?
12:39<andythenorth>is that what you roll from?
12:39*andythenorth assumes it’s the feedstock to a rolling mill
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>also, how do you break out of a blockade? if i send my ships into battle and then retreat, they just turn back into the port they came from
12:41<Islacrusez>I imagine you need to beat the shit out of the guys doing the blockading
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>not enough ships for that...
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have the same number of ships, but they have galleys and i have transports and light ships. so i make virtually no damage
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>and the transports tank only so much...
12:43<Islacrusez>what're you playing?
12:43<Samu>uhm, i'm being mislead by void ScriptConfig::AnchorUnchangeableSettings()
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>does that matter? :p
12:44<Samu>what is this anchoring after all?
12:44<Samu>i saw it anchoring a changeable setting
12:45<Samu>or is my interpretation different
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12:47<Samu>it's doing a "AnchorUnchangeableSettings-PlusSettingsDifferentThanDefault"
12:47<Samu>it puts them both in the same "bag"
12:49<Samu>when ResetSettings is called
12:49<Samu>both unchangeable settings and settings different than default get reset
12:50<Samu>unchangeable settings are supposed to never reset
12:50<Samu>i need to examine this better
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>HA. i actually managed to beat the shit out of them, with help from my allies :)
12:55<andythenorth>hmm
12:55<andythenorth>the only way to make sprites good
12:56<andythenorth>is to care about them more than anyone will actually notice
12:56<andythenorth>:P
12:56<@Alberth>or just put all the pixels exactly right :p
12:59<Samu> * As long as the default of a setting has not been changed, the value of * the setting is not stored. This to allow changing the difficulty setting * without having to reset the script's config. However, when a setting may * not be changed in game, we must "anchor" this value to what the setting * would be at the time of starting. Otherwise changing the difficulty * setting would change the setting's value (which isn't allowed).
13:01<Islacrusez>Eddi|zuHause, there's a lot of difference between what you can do in say Stellaris to say Grepolis, so yes, it matters :P
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm playing Europa Universalis IV
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>but the AI is terribly uncoordinated with ships
13:02<Islacrusez>ah, good luck with that; EU3 still kicks my ass until I can wear it like a hat
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause>like, sweden has half their ships sitting around somewhere instead of blockading denmark...
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>and my measly saxon fleet is totally not up to fighting denmark on their own
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>also, wtf is sweden doing anyway? its army is just moving back and forth between two provinces...
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13:28<andythenorth>quak
13:32<Samu>anchor unchangeable settings is fine after all, if I understood
13:32<Samu>resetsettings is then... wrong
13:33<Samu>resetsettings can't just reset all that is anchored
13:33<Samu>must do it in some other way
13:33<frosch123>hoi
13:34<@Alberth>hola
13:34<Samu>frosch123: are you responsible for the last trunk change?
13:34<Samu>I'm getting some AIs stopping quite early
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13:38<Samu>i tried cluelessplus on a 64x64 map, and it couldn't build an HQ, too much CPU blabla
13:39<Samu>i don't want to imagine on a 4096 map
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13:41<Samu>i've tried NoCAB on the same 64x64, this one is much more heavy and it didn't trigger that CPU thing however
13:41<Samu>something's quite not right
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13:53<supermop>andythenorth: i just thought they looked comically large blocks of aluminum
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14:17<Samu>this resetsettings deal is quite complex for me after all, time to give up
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14:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27596 /branches/1.6 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2016-06-01 20:35:24 +0200 )
14:35<@DorpsGek>[1.6] -Update: Documentation
14:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27597 /tags/1.6.1-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2016-06-01 20:41:01 +0200 )
14:41<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.6.1-RC1
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15:10<Samu>I wish I had a handy GS with 0 parameters
15:12<Samu>double clicking a GS script: if (Game::GetInstance() != NULL && GetConfig(this->selected_slot)->GetConfigList()->size() != 0) ShowAISettingsWindow((CompanyID)this->selected_slot);
15:12<Samu>to make sure if this would work
15:18<Samu>there are no AIs with 0 parameters, but just in case... I'll put this test in it anyway
15:19<Samu>does someone know of a GS script with 0 parameters? I need one for testing
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15:27<andythenorth>truck trailers are just train wagons with wheels moved around
15:27<johannes_>Any programmer here who can answer question (2) of http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=72741&p=1169799#p1169799 ? I.e. can I use C++11 for a part of OpenTTD that's not needed in the core?
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15:31<frosch123>why not?
15:31<frosch123>ottd also uses objective c and other weird languages
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15:35<frosch123>if ottd wouldn't have to compile on an arcane osx cross compiler, it would likely use c++11 als in the core
15:37<supermop>andythenorth: if they are just moving the train wheels around, i hope they are paying extra road tax at least
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15:54<johannes_>frosch123: thanks, I'll try C++11 then
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16:07<Samu>new version of my stuff :o
16:07<Samu>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1169760#p1169760
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17:18<Samu>glx: how do I create a standalone bundle of OpenTTD?
17:18<Samu>so i can zip it
17:19<Samu>on visual studio
17:19<+glx>can't be done from VS
17:19<Samu>oh, :\
17:20<+glx>we use "make bundle"
17:20<Samu>t.t
17:20<Samu>I keep hearing make bundle all the time
17:21<Samu>sometimes i hear make install
17:23<Samu>did you ever try any of my patches? just wondering if it is causing issues
17:23<Samu>I don't think anyone ever tried
17:24<Samu>I don't get that much feedback
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18:03<Samu>there is a strange bug with scenario editor start date
18:05<Samu>gonna try to reproduce it
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18:06<Samu>okay, I got the reproduceable steps
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18:07<Samu>so I launch openttd, then scenario editor, it has a start date of 1950
18:08<Samu>if i change the date to ... say 1960, then exit the editor, then when i click new game, the start date for the new game is still 1950
18:08<Samu>but
18:09<Samu>if I load a scenario
18:09<Samu>that scenario has a date of 1960
18:09<Samu>then i exit scenario editor, when i click new game, the date is now 1960 :(
18:10<Samu>seems to be a bug about loading scenarios
18:10<Samu>gonna report
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18:49<Samu>bug reported: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6474
18:49<Samu>heh, harder to say it in words than actually performing it
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19:18<Samu>strange, I'm getting a ton of 'received invalid or unexpected packet' from clients joining my servers
19:19<Samu>I wonder if it's because of hibernate feature
19:20<Samu>I hibernate windows 10 in-between, maybe it's the cause
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19:21<Samu>when the system wakes up, users that join appear to get that error
19:21<Samu>I can't confirm this though
19:22<JetFox>?
19:24<Samu>i start a server, then I have to go to bed or so, and I don't want to shut down the server, so I hibernate windows 10. When I wake up, I can return windows to what it was before I went to bed.
19:25<Samu>I do this so that I can preserve clients company passwords, but I suspect this doesn't always work
19:25<JetFox>Hibernation isnt exactly nice for a server.
19:25<JetFox>Imagine the time clock you hibernated around 10PM, the server stops to go into hibernation. You wake it up at 7AM.. it has no idea what to do during that time.
19:26<JetFox>You basically told it to skip time where it was supposed to process something
19:27<Samu>I think it's network related though
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19:28<Samu>I don't always get the same IP address between hibernations
19:28<Samu>but there's no way I can confirm
19:29<Samu>and Windows firewall is so confusing for me to configure
19:30<JetFox>Why not just get a $3 ovp vps and put it on there?
19:30<JetFox>it wont go into hibernate
19:35<Samu>but it's strange that the master server recognizes my server coming online from hibernation
19:35<Samu>how else would players be able to even join
19:36<Samu>:( I dunno what it is, but appears only after hibernation sessions
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19:45<FLHerne>Samu: When you launch a public server, it sends a packet to the master
19:45<FLHerne>To tell it it's there, and the name/settings/etc
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19:54<Samu>I really have no way to test this by myself alone
19:55<Samu>I need a volunteer
19:55<Samu>:p
19:56<Samu>my spectating instances don't error out even when coming from hibernation
19:56<Samu>but I didn't try rejoining
19:56<ST2>try spectating from other machine
19:57<Samu>that other machine is on the same home network
19:57<Samu>but yeah, i got to test
19:57<Samu>if I get permission from my parents
19:57<ST2>and as JetFox said, there are very cheap vps's for testings ^^
19:57<Samu>it's their rig
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20:07<Samu_>ST2: ok, i'm back
20:08<Samu_>you're still "in", the ghost of you, that is
20:08<ST2>got a Network-connection lost
20:08<ST2>and dumped of the game, obviously ^^
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20:11<Samu_>Client ST2 is still in the game, I'm waiting for the timeout ...
20:11<Samu_>weird, it takes a while
20:11<ST2>usually are the normal 20 seconds ^^
20:11<ST2>at least on our servers ^^
20:12<Samu_>how long is 32000 ticks?
20:12<Samu_>keks
20:15<Samu_>ST2 is not dropping :|
20:15<ST2>74 ticks is ~1 sec
20:15<ST2>(I think xD)
20:17<ST2>well, I guess public servers are not prepared for hibernating - and, imo, there's no reason to
20:17<Samu_>it's been what... 10 minutes, ST2 client is still in, this is weird
20:17<Samu_>ok, try joining, to see what happens
20:17<ST2>can I try to join again?
20:17<ST2>to see if appears 2 me's xD
20:18<ST2>client list only shows 1 me
20:18<ST2>^^
20:18<Samu_>eh, ST2 has left the game, then ST2 has joined the game
20:18<Samu_>like... almost 1 sec after
20:19<ST2>gotta love server name for a 64x64 map xD
20:19<Samu_>:o i didn't bother changing it
20:20<ST2>hehe
20:20<Samu_>it was a 4096x4096 with 15 Ais a few weeks ago
20:20<Samu_>really slow
20:20<ST2>now imagine if I was that lazy, since we have 28 OpenTTD servers running xD
20:20<Samu_>what happens if you perform actions in the game now? errors or anything?
20:21<ST2>lets try ^^
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21:06<JetFox>Hows everyone doin?
21:09-!-rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: I'll be Bach]
21:15*Islacrusez cries into his tea
21:15<Islacrusez>trying to wrap my head around astrophysics
21:16<Islacrusez>but it's 2 in the morning and I can't even convert mass to volume at this point, let alone calculate things like gravitational binding energy, so it's going... badly
21:31<JetFox>o.0
21:35<Islacrusez>never try to calculate what'll happen if you hit the moon with a big rock and try to shatter it; if your numbers are in the regions where you're likely to be successful, you're gonna have a bad time
21:35<Islacrusez>I bid ye all good night
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22:23<Eddi|zuHause>i can't even begin to imagine what physical property is responsible for "shattering"
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---Logclosed Thu Jun 02 00:00:42 2016