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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-05

---Logopened Sun Jun 05 00:00:46 2016
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04:44<_dp_><sim-al2> 00:40:37> Yeah, I see one still running FIRS 1.3 <-- haha I know that server ^^
04:45<_dp_>Guess nobody felt like balancing it for newer versions
04:45<_dp_>And I don't know firs myself
04:46<_dp_>From what I heard ports completely break gameplay
04:49<andythenorth>shouldn’t be allowed
04:49<andythenorth>delete it from bananas
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05:27<Mutter>Hello o/
05:27-!-Mutter is now known as Leanden
05:27<Gja>o/ Leanden
05:28<Leanden>I need NML help :(
05:28<Leanden>I coded my eurostar 373 on the BRTrains set
05:29<Leanden>When i refit the livery the whole train changes as expected except for the buffet cars and the trailing motor which both stay in default livery
05:30<Leanden>I am fairly sure the problem lies with the cargo_subtype switch, but i cant see any errors
05:30<Leanden>Full code is on the BRTrains dev thread if anyone could take a look.
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05:44<Leanden>Is there a limit to how many switches in a single pnml document or somethig like that?
05:45<Leanden>Or maybe to do with the train length as its 20 cars long?
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06:16<frosch123>moin mammals
06:21<Alkel_U3>Hm, I can't find a language-compatible goal-less server with FIRS running on 1.6. Might as well start my own.
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07:46<andythenorth>these trucks are all wrong
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08:14<frosch123>yay, hail :/
08:19<frosch123>size increasing, i hope everyone ran away when the thunder started
08:23<frosch123>some are easily 2cm diameter
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08:32<@planetmaker>autsch. That's tough
08:33<@planetmaker>Is it helpful when I say that we have nicest weather here? Sunshine, few clouds? But it's just much too humid... maybe thunderstorm coming later
08:34<frosch123>oh, it had 25 degree and sunshine 30 minutes ago :p
08:34<frosch123>likely again in 15 minutes
08:34<frosch123>though, the temperature may take some time
08:39<@planetmaker>:) Hm, my thermometer is in the sun. It's telling me 47°C :P
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08:47<@Alberth>in the sun, that sounds correct :p
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08:52<@Alberth>hmm, DisplayOptions in openttd.h, that looks a little lost :)
08:56<frosch123>rename "openttd.h" to "lostandfound.h" ?
09:01*andythenorth is an idiot
09:01<andythenorth>I’ve re-drawn the modern trucks to be quite chibi
09:01<andythenorth>which leaves no room for the older, smaller trucks :P
09:02<andythenorth>just not enough pixels to actually draw them :P
09:04<andythenorth>solution: redraw the modern trucks :P
09:05<@Alberth>rename would fail, compiler isn't so smart to look in lostandfound when it looses an include file
09:08<andythenorth>chibi trucks do look nicer though :P
09:08<andythenorth>but they’d all have to be same size, no possibility for newer = bigger, older = smaller
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09:15<@Alberth>smaller length-wise :p
09:15<@Alberth>or rather, breath-wise
09:18<andythenorth>when a cab is 3px long and 4px wide, it’s hard to draw it with any shape :)
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09:38*andythenorth sizes trucks to match trains :P
09:43<@Alberth>nice form of road train :p
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>british trains are, of course, smaller than regular trains.
09:52<supermop>frosch123: summer thunderstorms are my favorite part of the season
09:52<frosch123>if you are inside :)
09:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: file that as a bug with Iron Horse / most other train sets :D
09:54<andythenorth>hmm, some tunnel glitches due to height :P
10:06<sim-al2>And then there's tube trains, making regular British trains look big :p
10:06<Islacrusez>tube trains? you mean glorified cans of beans?
10:07<andythenorth>is there any way to stop the ottd console snaffling ctrl-b ?
10:17<@Alberth>don't press it?
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10:36<andythenorth>reload_newgrfs, toggle bounding box :P
10:36<andythenorth>is a thing I do a lot
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>just close the console?
10:46*andythenorth not good at doing sequences in correct order :P
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10:49<@Alberth>some smart cookie decided to disable bounding boxes on reload, I take it?
10:53<@Alberth>also, why does fios seem so bloody complicated? I can't see structure with all the magic globals
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11:55<andythenorth>the midsize truck is the best looking sprite, but eh, there are 3 older trucks preceding it in the roster
11:56<andythenorth>so I have to use the big one here
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12:06<Islacrusez>doesn't necessarily need to be larger; more capacity can come from a stronger chassis or somesuch... alternatively have you tried a longer trailer without making it taller?
12:09<@Alberth>the "previous" could be an earlier generation
12:10<@Alberth>the body looks much less strong
12:11<@Alberth>maybe even remove a pixel to reduce height
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12:17<V453000>yo humenz
12:17<Islacrusez>no humenz here, only zuul
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>all sorts of terrible thoughts popped in my head just there
12:30<Mazur>Yeah, good, innit?
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12:54<Islacrusez>Mazur, I feel violated. Thanks.
13:01<BarbarianKabbage_>Wow... I haven't been here since last night XD. We went to a parade and it went on until 11:00 so the minute I got home, I fell asleep.
13:02<BarbarianKabbage_>lol GoatBusters
13:02<BarbarianKabbage_>If you've played the NES game it's more like GERSTBUSTERS
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i never played NES games
13:05<BarbarianKabbage_>Well, the opening of the game is a bad soundbyte
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13:07<Mazur>I've got millions more like it.
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>never quite got the point of "x hours of <blah>" videos
13:07<Mazur>Thank you, folks, i'll be here all year!
13:08<Islacrusez>Eddi|zuHause, in most cases it's some sort of endurance challenge
13:09<Islacrusez>because people have something to prove to the internetz or something
13:11<BarbarianKabbage_>I don't understand some of them either
13:12<BarbarianKabbage_>the music ones I can kind of understand
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13:52<_dp_>is there any way to allow oil refineries to be built everywhere?
13:53<_dp_>there is setting but it seems to change nothing rly (12-48 tiles from border, as if it matters)
13:56<@Alberth>newgrf can fix it, afaik
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13:59<_dp_>Alberth, except that newgrf can't change default industries afaik
14:01<@Alberth>indeed, but you asked for "any way"
14:02<@Alberth>play at 64x64 would also work :p
14:03<@Alberth>you only need 32 tiles from the edge then :)
14:03<@Alberth>oh, 2048x64, anyone? :)
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14:12<_dp_>mb I'll just remove all oil
14:12<_dp_>not gonna work in temperate anyway :p
14:16<BarbarianKabbage_> There just made another MIDI Music for OpenTTD
14:16<BarbarianKabbage_>It's Rock and Roll, and I think I'll make some more music and put it into a pack.
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14:41<Samu>I'm trying to play openttd on a very old system and I just remembered that I need version 1.5.2
14:41<Samu>newer versions past that are extremely slow
14:43<Samu>where can i dl 1.5.2 or what can i do to improve openttd performance?
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14:51<@Alberth>get the url of a stable version, and modify it to point to the version you want
14:52<debdog>hehe, beats me
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14:52<@Alberth>unfortunately, there are too many robot spiders continuously downloading all old versions
14:52<@Alberth>and eating our bandwidth :(
14:53<@Alberth>so the links to the older versions were removed
14:53<Samu>thx, got it
14:55<Samu>by chance, do you know what was changed from 1.5.2 to make it so slow?
14:58<@Alberth>1.6 changelog is pretty small
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15:00<@Alberth>I wouldn't know what can cause that
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: small suggestion: if you want someone to put your music into a pack, you should include a clear and concise license (e.g. one of the CC licenses) so people in 5 years stumbling over the topic don't have to hunt you down for permission, when you've long since moved on to other projects
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: the forum is full of art where people ignored this license thing, and nobody dares to touch it
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>huge parts of the 32bpp images, for example
15:06<BarbarianKabbage_>I've never applied a license to something before.
15:06<Islacrusez>just because people do it doesn't mean it's nice, good practice, or legal
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>for the CC licenses it's fairly easy, you decide what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do (like make verbatim copies, modify it, make money off it), and it comes with a short abbreviation like "CC-BY-ND" which you stick in the description of your title
15:08<BarbarianKabbage_>Is OpenTTD Technically COmmercial?
15:09<BarbarianKabbage_>I don't believe so because you can get it for free.
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's not forbidden to distribute OpenTTD commecrially. some linux distributions might exclude software which forbids it
15:09<BarbarianKabbage_>It's open-source
15:09<@Alberth>the whole point is that if you don't say what is allowed, nothing is allowed
15:09<@Alberth>so the only thing that can be done is to leave it alone
15:10<@Alberth>ie if you publish something at the forum, it does not mean anybody can use it
15:10<@Alberth>you have to explicitly say so
15:11<Samu>oh? :o
15:11<Samu>just use it
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: the license of OpenTTD has almost nothing to do with the license for your music, anyway. it's almost certainly two distinct projects which can have different licenses
15:13<Samu>I dont understand the point of licenses
15:13<BarbarianKabbage_>Would BY-SA be a good option?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>sure, that's fine
15:13<@Alberth> <-- that says a few words about licenses
15:14<@Alberth>Samu: It protects your work
15:15<Islacrusez>it also tells people whether or not they can legally use your work; otherwise the more principled people might just ignore it and use something else
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15:15<BarbarianKabbage_>It's gonna be BY-NC-SA
15:15<Samu>if I put something online, it's already there, I can't claim anything anymore.
15:16<@Alberth>Islacrusez: using it not a problem as nobody knows what I use at my system, publishing is the problem, and extending it after the original author left
15:16<Samu>If I really cared to restrict it, I wouldn't even post.
15:16<@Alberth>Samu: false, it's still your work
15:17<Islacrusez>Samu, oh boy I hope you never run in with RIAA and co
15:17<BarbarianKabbage_>I just don't wnt people making money off of it.
15:17<Islacrusez>"It's online, you can't claim it anymore" would be a great legal defense
15:17<Sylf>I would drop NC part
15:17<BarbarianKabbage_>Why tho
15:17<@Alberth>if it's online, the only thing you can't do is make it go away :)
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: that's fine, from now on put this "CC-BY-NC-SA" into the description of all titles you post
15:17<@Alberth>Sylf: He picked BY-SA
15:18<Sylf>oh. I only read the BY-NC-SA part above
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>NC is considered fairly restrictive
15:18<@Alberth>hmm, true
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>some more openness-oriented communities really dislike it. but i don't really see the problem
15:19<Islacrusez>really, being able to sell someone else's work is a dealbreaker for people?
15:19<Sylf>it's just a restriction that's not needed imo
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>but imagine this: someone makes a let's play on youtube, which includes your music running in the background. can he tick the "monetize this video" box?
15:19<Sylf>unless you're really against someone making money off of your product
15:20<BarbarianKabbage_>Basically all I want is my name somewhere for the music
15:20<@Alberth>Islacrusez: getting BSD into an Apple machine would be
15:21<@Alberth>if you would have NC as license, you couldn't put BSD into a commercial product
15:21<BarbarianKabbage_>What is a BSD
15:21<@Alberth>that's the dealbreaker for people
15:21<BarbarianKabbage_>What's it stand for?
15:21<@Alberth>BarbarianKabbage_: alternative for Linux
15:22<BarbarianKabbage_>I thought you were talking about CC codes
15:22<@Alberth>it has a more free license than Linux
15:22<andythenorth>NC is a dumb move for most work created as a hobby
15:22<@Alberth>you can just take it and use it for any purpose
15:24<BarbarianKabbage_>I guess BY-SA would be the easiest for me?
15:24<Islacrusez>surely if you're giving away something for free, it's within the bounds of NC?
15:25<BarbarianKabbage_>I'm gonna do BY-NC I think
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: CC-BY-SA will give you the least troubles in the long run
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>but in the end it's your decision
15:25<BarbarianKabbage_>So CC-BY-SA Is what I'm gonna go for until I can like, sell music.
15:26<BarbarianKabbage_>I'm only 13. I don't think I'm gonna get a record deal anytime soon XD
15:26<BarbarianKabbage_>Especially with MIDI Music LOL
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>you can also put CC-BY-NC-SA, and change your mind later and drop the NC
15:26<BarbarianKabbage_>Well, It's MIDI Music
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>ultimately, it's your choice, though
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>music is music...
15:27<BarbarianKabbage_>I think I'm gonna go with CC-BY-SA is gonna be my best bet
15:27<BarbarianKabbage_>RIP English ^
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15:27<BarbarianKabbage_>Where should I post my Music?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>forum is fine for now
15:27<BarbarianKabbage_>Like what directory of this forum?
15:28<Sylf>request a project on :)
15:28<Sylf>I might drop a midi or two too
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>there's not going to be much demand for a music subforum, so general is fine :)
15:30<BarbarianKabbage_>I'm gonna pobably sound like an idiot but... what is an OpenID
15:30<Sylf>it's a single-sign-on system
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>like a wallet, where you collect logins to sizes
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't have to remember hundreds of passwords
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>or worse, use the same password everywhere
15:32<andythenorth>silly trucks
15:32<andythenorth>and their silly number of wheels
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>usually an even number.
15:33<@Alberth>you don't have to do the spare tire
15:33<andythenorth>IRL is just not compatible with the game :P
15:33<andythenorth>the game wants a logical progression from fewer wheels -> more wheels over time
15:33<andythenorth>and for each generation, same number of total wheels on different truck models
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds like a very arbitrary basis for a set...
15:35<andythenorth>it’s only a detail of sprites
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm questioning the "the game wants" part of your premise
15:35<andythenorth>means I have to draw the trucks that the rules need, rather than the ones I find interesting
15:36<@Alberth>nah, change the rules
15:36<supermop>andythenorth: trucks get worse every 10 years
15:36<andythenorth>I didn’t make the rules
15:36<supermop>best truck comes out in 1900, a wheelbarrow comes out in 2050
15:36<Samu>trucks get scars? pain falls apart?
15:36<andythenorth>‘your’ brain knows that you can’t have 30t / 7 axles -> 40t / 6 axles
15:36<andythenorth>your brain knows that more = bigger
15:36<@Alberth>hmm, as a sort of counter transport wrt trains?
15:36<andythenorth>never more = smaller
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but your current computer is almost certainly smaller than your last one
15:37<@Alberth>horse carts on steroids
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>5 years ago i'd have said the same about phones, but they went a different direction...
15:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: oddly enough, it’s been same size for about 10 years :P
15:38<andythenorth>and yes, phones prove the point currently :(
15:38<andythenorth>silly big phones
15:38<BarbarianKabbage_>That's my topic
15:38<@Alberth>it happens when you want to read the newspaper at your phone :)
15:40<BarbarianKabbage_>I want to thank you guys for helping me :)
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>BarbarianKabbage_: fine. just to emphasise: you should put the "CC-BY-SA" bit also in each file you post, not just in the topic
15:42<BarbarianKabbage_>That's what I'm gonna do
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming every file has a title and a description, put it into the description)
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's also where you put your name.
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>(and when i say "name" it doesn't have to be your real name, can also be an alias (artist name)
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>there should only be one axle at the front
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>one to support the weight of the cab, two to support the weight of the cargo
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>the cargo is mostly in the back
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>so the back should have more axles than the front
16:02<andythenorth>so the problem is realism?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>not really...
16:03<sim-al2>There seems to be a lot of trucks with axles like that, although a bit more spread out
16:03<andythenorth>UK truck configurations tend to be driven by legal regime
16:03<andythenorth>hence this
16:03<andythenorth>for 1940s-1950s trucks
16:04<andythenorth>only legal high configuration for high payload at that time
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say that truck is much bigger than the one in your picture
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16:05<andythenorth>I made the game ones a bit chibi
16:05<andythenorth>I’m making them longer again
16:05*Islacrusez is very confused at all this arbitrary stressing about axles
16:05<andythenorth>buy menu has to look good
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's fine, but the "chibi" thing emphasises the "too many axles" problem
16:05<andythenorth>problem is realism
16:06<andythenorth>needs to be abandoned
16:06<andythenorth>usual problem
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>if you make it "chibi", remove some axles
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>no, the "problem" is that you can't decide whether to make it "realistic" or not, so your thoughts go back and forth too much
16:07<Islacrusez>so the logical conclusion is that the first available vehicle should be a wheelbarrow and the last available vehicle should be rocket transporter?
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16:07<Islacrusez>quit stressing about how the buy menu looks, nobody's gonna look at the pictures anyway
16:08<andythenorth>Islacrusez: wheelbarrow -> rocket transporter sounds like a strong progression ;)
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>if your goal is to make a logical wheel progression, then list all the wheel arrangements before making any pixel
16:08<andythenorth>oh I did that in BANDIT
16:08<Islacrusez>decision process for upgrading to a new vehicle: does this new vehicle have better stats than my existing vehicle y/n; y-> upgrade
16:08<andythenorth>I have a page of a notebook listing all the logical progression
16:09<andythenorth>but no pixels
16:09<andythenorth>and BANDIT was really boring, no soul
16:09<andythenorth>also procedural graphics generation :P
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, then define wheel progression as a non-goal.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>then you have two approaches left: make the pixels first, then give them stats, or make the stats first, then give them pixels
16:11<andythenorth>stats first, then pixels
16:11<Islacrusez>also if your vehicle progression has no depth you end up in the completely soul-crushing situation where there is only one correct vehicle at any given time; you should have alternatives that fill different needs
16:11<andythenorth>Islacrusez I think the opposite
16:12<andythenorth>there should always be one correct vehicle
16:12<Islacrusez>then why play? the designer has already made the decisions for you?
16:12<Islacrusez>there should be a correct vehicle for the job, not for the time period
16:12<andythenorth>ok, that’s a better description yes
16:12<andythenorth>these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
16:13<Islacrusez>but surely if you're focusing on how the buy list looks, you're losing track of that goal
16:13<andythenorth>vehicle appearance should give player a clue to stats
16:14<Islacrusez>vehicle x fits condition x1, vehicle y fits condition y1; list goes x, y; if you're focusing on the buy list having a progression, you force yourself to give the visual appearance of y > x, despite the opposite being true under x1
16:15<andythenorth>nah, I don’t get that, sorry :)
16:16<andythenorth>if there’s no progression between vehicle generations, why have them?
16:16<andythenorth>if gen 2 is not better than gen 1, why have it?
16:17<Islacrusez>better != bigger != more axles != prettier
16:17<Islacrusez>better yes, but you're using very arbitrary appearance parameters as your definition for better
16:18<andythenorth>what is better?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>better could mean more speed, more capacity, less running costs, other...
16:19<Islacrusez>better performance; which should be a distinct a distinct metric for all the different vehicles types and the progression of each vehicle type should be an improvement in that specific metric for every generation
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'd approach it differntly: two vehicles for the same general purpose should have the same basic look, only the style changes with the times
16:20*andythenorth is still convinced that “better = bigger"
16:21<andythenorth>I don’t think anything else makes sense to players
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>i disagree.
16:21<Islacrusez>if that's your view of players I wonder why you bother =/
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>the "better" comes from the stats, not from the looks
16:21<Islacrusez>I look at the stats, as apparently does Eddi, and I'd wager that anyone playing to do well
16:22<andythenorth>I don’t think it makes sense to ‘upgrade’ from vehicle A to vehicle B, where vehicle B is smaller
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said make them the same
16:23<andythenorth>same physical dimensions?
16:23<Islacrusez>but you would trade a cargo ship for a truck on a 10-tile route only producing 30units/month?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>make them rounder, edgier, flashier, sparkling
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, same physical dimension
16:24<Islacrusez>if bigger is better, the cargo ship should always be the thing you use
16:24<Islacrusez>and we all know this isn't true
16:24<andythenorth>they don’t appear in same buy menu
16:25<Islacrusez>it's bigger!
16:25<Islacrusez>everyone can see that!
16:25<andythenorth>and ships logically are the best transport type, they’re just boring
16:25<andythenorth>they have infinite capacity
16:25<andythenorth>logic != fun
16:25<Islacrusez>has OTTD changed drastically since I last played or something?
16:26<andythenorth>when did you last play? o_O
16:26<Islacrusez>last I checked it was near impossible to make money on a ship if you couldn't fill it in the minimum loading time
16:26<andythenorth>ships print money
16:26<andythenorth>and there are no infrastructure restrictions
16:27<Islacrusez>they used to have a running cost though, don't they have that anymore?
16:27<andythenorth>which is best? o_O
16:27*andythenorth posts a counter argument
16:27<Islacrusez>don't know, give me stats
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: electric is better.
16:27<andythenorth>looks faster, stronger?
16:28<andythenorth>train 3 is 100mph, 1750hp
16:28<andythenorth>train 5 is 155mph, 6400hp
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: add racing stripes to make the trucks faster.
16:28<andythenorth>more exhaust pipes
16:29<Islacrusez>well train 5 is your choice if speed is your primary concern; but if it costs 1,000,000 $/hr then it might not be the best solution
16:29<andythenorth>running cost is irrelevant
16:29<andythenorth>money is not a factor in openttd
16:29<Islacrusez>I give up, we're not playing the same game
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's really unlikely that two people plaing openttd play the same game :p
16:30<andythenorth>no don’t give up, the argument helps the design
16:30<andythenorth>now which is better?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's just too much of a variation in gameplay
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the one with the most axles and strongest walls.
16:31<Islacrusez>surely one should also remove: all money, loans, costs, and may as well remove the cargo too since the only purpose of moving cargo is to earn money
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>volume is hardly a concern for coal, and even less so for iron ore
16:31<Islacrusez>andythenorth, assuming the last one doesn't weigh 1,000,000t, probably the last one
16:32<Islacrusez>ultimately it's going to be about the stats
16:32<Islacrusez>what use is a wagon with infinite capacity if my trains can't move it?
16:32<Islacrusez>what use is a train with infinite power if I can't afford it?
16:33<Islacrusez>what use is a big vehicle if I can't load it? what use is it if it carries no cargo?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Islacrusez: what use is worrying about infinity if you can never reach it?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Islacrusez: what use is thinking about god if you can never meet him?
16:33<Islacrusez>Eddi|zuHause, functionally infinite
16:33<andythenorth>but the stats are all level for each vehicle generation
16:33<Islacrusez>you can say there's no limit to how much cargo it can load, but you'll crash the game eventually
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the stats in the same generation should be uncomparables
16:34<andythenorth>gen 1 trucks are all 25t, gen 2 30t, gen 3 40t
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16:34<andythenorth>and they all have similar speeds and HP
16:34<Islacrusez>then you're probably doing it wrong
16:35<andythenorth>how many sets have you made? :)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
16:35<andythenorth>why bother with that?
16:35<andythenorth>making rational economic choices is boring
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16:36<andythenorth>the game is about building routes and stopping traffic jams
16:36*Islacrusez sighs
16:36<andythenorth>you pick the vehicle that matches the cargo
16:36<andythenorth>why make the tanker truck arbitrarily better or worse than the open cargo truck?
16:36<Islacrusez>then you're violating your own design requirement <andythenorth> these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
16:37<andythenorth>how does that violate it?
16:37<Islacrusez>if one vehicle is better at everything, there's only one choice
16:37<andythenorth>you pick the one that matches the cargo
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then you should have only one vehicle per generation.
16:37<andythenorth>no we tried that :)
16:37<Islacrusez>in fact you should only have one vehicle
16:37<andythenorth>refittable truck
16:37<andythenorth>very boring
16:37<Islacrusez>get rid of the player too, there's no choices to make
16:37<andythenorth>you’re confusing ‘choice’ with ‘economic analysis'
16:38<Islacrusez>fine, there's no decisions to make
16:38<andythenorth>most of the big newgrfs start out with realism, then load on stats tweaks as a form of gameplay ‘balance'
16:38<andythenorth>with dubious results, and tedious economic analysis to justify which vehicle is the right choice
16:39<Islacrusez>so the solution is to throw out both realism and balance? ingenious
16:39<andythenorth>the balance is between different transport types
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if the 3 stats you're balancing are speed, capacity and price, you should have (about) 3 different choices for each cargo: 1 which is cheaper but has shit speed and shit capacity, 1 which is fast but is expensive and has shit capacity, and 1 which is huge but is expensive and has shit speed
16:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: actually I agree almost completely with that
16:40<andythenorth>trams / highway trucks / off-highway trucks
16:40<Islacrusez>and yet you refuse to implement it
16:40<andythenorth>I *have* implemented it :P
16:40<andythenorth>that’s the set
16:40<Islacrusez>but bigger is better!
16:40<Islacrusez>and also money no object
16:41<Islacrusez><Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
16:41<andythenorth>we’re confused here about differences between vehicle types, and progression for vehicles generations
16:41<Islacrusez><andythenorth> why bother with that?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so, since we established that, from now on, consider each of these 3 categories separaately. each of these needs a logical progression over generations
16:41<andythenorth>that’s all sorted
16:41<andythenorth>the sprites just don’t make sense
16:41<andythenorth>sprites go small -> big -> small -> small
16:42<andythenorth>needs fixing
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said, the generations should all be roughly the same size
16:42<andythenorth>you are correct
16:42<andythenorth>again :P
16:42<andythenorth>I will interpret ’roughly’’ quite liberally though
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's only so many pixels you can add to make them "bigger" before it gets unwieldy
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16:44<andythenorth>even 8/8 trailers look stupid
16:44<andythenorth>I looked at the original base set trucks earlier, they’re not one of the finest parts of the original sprites :P
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16:45<andythenorth>so all I need to do is ignore history of UK trucks, make all 1940s trucks 4 or 5 axles, problem solved
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17:15<_dp_>I'd really like to have more flexibility with town growth speed
17:15<BarbarianKabbage_>What do you mean
17:15<BarbarianKabbage_>For modding?
17:15<_dp_>small towns are not fun, and once they get to like growth_rate < 3 it's too little options
17:16<_dp_>and so much difference, rate 0 is twice faster than rate 1
17:16<BarbarianKabbage_>Sometimes I like to play by starting in the smallest town and getting it really big. Haven't made it that far
17:16<_dp_>for citybuilder
17:16<BarbarianKabbage_>I haven't played CityBuilder
17:17<BarbarianKabbage_>When I first heard about it, I thought that the roles were reversed; you were having bots get resources and YOU built the city
17:18<BarbarianKabbage_>ai not bots
17:18<_dp_>and it's very easy to grow town of any size in regular openttd, just build roads, do 5 stations and leave on fast-forward)
17:19<_dp_>nooo, ofc not, cb is all about resources, growing town itself isn't that much of a problem
17:20<BarbarianKabbage_>People play on big servers for CityBuilder, right?
17:20<BarbarianKabbage_>I don't think I could ever go on a server
17:21<BarbarianKabbage_>I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it
17:21<_dp_>then go on good server and learn :p
17:21<_dp_>it's much better than learning from bots xD
17:21<BarbarianKabbage_>what servers are good
17:22<_dp_>citymania, btpro, n-ice as goal servers, openttdcoop for networking, reddit for just chilling)
17:23<BarbarianKabbage_>I'm gonna try the Reddit one
17:23<BarbarianKabbage_>I like how this game doesn't have a bad community :)
17:23<BarbarianKabbage_>I mean, there will always be a grumpy guy, but most other games everybody calls you a noob and be mean.
17:25<_dp_>yeah, most of good players are very nice and helpful here
17:26<BarbarianKabbage_>What is a 'goal server'
17:26<BarbarianKabbage_>like you have a goal like RollerCoaster Tycoon?
17:27<_dp_>one that has some goal like "reach 1mil company value" and you compete with other players on who's first to reach it
17:27<_dp_>all citybuider servers are goal ones
17:28<_dp_>didn't play rct so no idea what kind of goals are there)
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17:29<_dp_>basically, on goal servers you can compete with other players
17:30<BarbarianKabbage_>are you on a server currently?
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause><BarbarianKabbage_> I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it <-- you find loads of people who have been playing for 20 years and still suck :p
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17:58<ST2>and BarbarianKabbage_ chose a ULTRA HARD GOAL server to test - not the best to start but since you manage there, all others look like take candies to babies xD
17:59<_dp_>ST2, not so sure about that ;)
17:59<ST2>yeah, I know that - but for CV's?!
18:00<_dp_>for cv dunno, cv is stupid :p
18:00<ST2>well, same as CB... BB is the way to go :P
18:01<_dp_>ST2, nah, cv is same as balance but with 1.5x for new vehicles
18:02<ST2>there I agree with you
18:02<_dp_>ST2, which makes no sense whatsoever
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i honestly have no clue what game you are playing there...
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18:04<ST2>vanilla OpenTTD gives 1,5x CV value to who spams on buying trains
18:04<ST2>for example
18:04<ST2>_dp_ knows more on there, but it's a very old and known CV cheat
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>i have never even put the remotest thought into company value.
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>except for "it's stupid that it stays on 2€"
18:05<ST2>it's shown on Company window ^^
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. but who ever looks at that window?
18:05<ST2>and always been there, not new ^^
18:05<_dp_>ST2, there is nothing more to know here)
18:06<_dp_>Eddi doesn't play goal servers)
18:06<ST2>CV is shown even on SP games ^^
18:06<_dp_>for some reason CV is just often used for a goal
18:07<_dp_>ST2, yeah, but nobody cares in sp
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18:08<ST2>nothing against hoe ppl play the game
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>ST2: you're talking like i have never seen the value before...
18:10<ST2>not interest in continue discussion, but yes, kinda :P
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i have seen it before.
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>it just never was interesting
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>it also showed no correlation to what i was doing in the game
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>might have as well be a random value
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not stating to put effort in it now :p
18:12<ST2>it's common communities use it as base
18:13<_dp_>ST2, so tell me, why are you still using it? ;)
18:13<ST2>[23:12:21] <ST2> it's common communities use it as base <<-- self explainatory words ^^
18:13<_dp_>the second I knew it does 1.5x I was like nope, we're not running cv anymore xD
18:14<_dp_>even though nova did it's own calculation without 1.5
18:14<ST2>we dnt have an automatic way to do it, but vehicle number are stored in DB too
18:14<ST2>so, we clean the ones that abused... when not spotted by an admin
18:15<_dp_>ST2, yeah, but why bother when you can just set balance goal?
18:15<ST2>bank account balance, you mean?
18:16<ST2>we have a script for it too, but uses admin port
18:16<ST2>means, only gets info each 3 month
18:16<ST2>well, same as CV xD
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18:16<ST2>but you got a point there :)
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>how is bank balance a useful goal?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>just means the optimal play is to stop playing some time before the end, and just let money accumulate
18:17<ST2>can be a Rating goal
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>any money you spend beyond that point is wasted
18:17<ST2>or Cargo delivered goal
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18:18<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, right, but that's not that much time to wait
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>bank balance is also a terrible goal, because a good company invests all its money to improve service. the game has a breaking point where it gets so complex you can't spend the money fast enough, which is where you start piling up cash
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>beyond that point, money is meaningless in the game
18:22<ST2>as the word "goal" states... on competitive games, means that win who gets there first
18:22<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, don't see any problem with that
18:22<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, also I'm not saying balance is a very interesting goal to play, it's pretty plaing, but still ok
18:22<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, simple yet competitive
18:23<ST2>a tricky goal, is the yearly income
18:23<_dp_>yearly stuff can be abused with storing cargo
18:24<ST2>I called it "tricky" ^^
18:24<ST2>not many players think about that option ^^
18:25<_dp_>ST2, I'd call it tricky if it make a good gameplay
18:25<_dp_>ST2, which I seriously doubt because of how station storage works
18:26<ST2>gameplay is too a relative word, since OpenTTD allows several setting combinations that can create different tactics to reach any goal (if exists)
18:28<_dp_>ST2, well, what's the best tactics here, spreding cargo across numerous storage stations with regular adv. then flooding it asap?
18:28<_dp_>ST2, doesn't sound very appealing to me, and I don't see how any settings can influence it
18:29<_dp_>ST2, there are no settings that change station storage afaik
18:29<ST2>_dp_: not saying that was a good goal type, only that's a possibility
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18:30<_dp_>ST2, honestly I don't even know any good goal type besides CB, and even that one is hard to do right
18:31<_dp_>BB is close except that it needs some tweaking for competitive servers
18:32<ST2>true, but the most honest goals you can have
18:32<ST2>and no, I'm not a politician xD
18:34<ST2>and it can all be done with server code changes - but we use the gamescript, and for making a public server with it, we believe has legs to walk and grow
18:35<ST2>despite the fact that I don't see any other online servers using BB GS
18:37<ST2>which leads to the fact that OpenTTD online servers is not about what's more "balanced" but it's about what players like to play
18:37<_dp_>ST2, I lost you here
18:38<_dp_>now that I think of it, I'm not even sure what needs to be done to BB to make it more fair
18:38<_dp_>its whole point is to give random goals, and random generally doesn't make a fair setting
18:38<ST2>we use the released version, not trunk one - but needs to BB goals dnt repeat
18:39<ST2>basically that
18:39<ST2>I guess some work already done, since I look at BB trunk code (yes, I can read code too :P)
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18:40<_dp_>givin same industry for everyone is the most obvious but not the only problem of bb
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18:40<ST2>not same industry - repeating similar goals
18:40<_dp_>ah, well, that too
18:40<ST2>that's (or was) the issue
18:41<ST2>competition is good
18:41<ST2>because BB is about deliveries... dnt care from where is taken xD
18:42<_dp_>competition is different
18:42<_dp_>does'n go well with secondary/ternary industries
18:42<ST2>yeah, and that forced us to adjust the rules on the server BB is running (can be chacked ingame)
18:44<_dp_>whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness
18:44<ST2>exactly - and that's the good on it
18:45<ST2>but it's not that random - with time you'll notice that has favourite towns and industries
18:46<_dp_>how's it good? you have to give more or less similar goals to everyone if you want it to be fair
18:46<ST2>I'm not saying that's good ^^
18:47<ST2>[23:44:22] <_dp_> whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness <<-- maybe on "to limit its randomness" you wanted to say "to control its randomness"
18:48<_dp_>ST2, mb, coz I don't see much difference xD
18:48<ST2>only a word :P
18:49<ST2>it's like the rand function in ttd, try that on climate choice and you'll get 70% climate "1"
18:50<ST2>not much that random ^^
18:50<_dp_>whatever, I want any set of it's goals to take nearly the same amount of time with same level of player skill))
18:51<_dp_>ST2, bad rand distrubution is a different story, I know how to make good rand so don't care :p
18:51<ST2>yeah, fixed that too ^^
18:51<_dp_>btw, we don't use random climates, we use random configs ;)
18:52<ST2>from what I know (code side) from BB, the goals are randommly set, but within the start goals (example 10), 5 easy, 5 long
18:52<ST2>if you get 8 easy and 2 long, means that next set of woals will be 8 long and 2 easy
18:54<_dp_>there definitely need to be more constraints
18:55<ST2>other ways to control it, yes, I agree
18:55<_dp_>mb some measure like (goal - cargo in prev goals) * distance / wagon capacity will work
18:55<ST2>there's already a table created for completed goals
18:56<_dp_>probably need to add some factor for how fast that cargo can be acquired
18:56<ST2>to dnt repeat
18:56<_dp_>it's just not about simple repeating
18:56<_dp_>goods goal is much easier after livestock/grain for example
18:58<ST2>imagine a player that gets a livestock/grain goal to a factory
18:59<ST2>and he make it
18:59<ST2>since factory produces... a Goods goal can appear
18:59<ST2>but he pulls off his tracks
18:59<ST2>ah, works too on Toyland xD
19:00<ST2>why not?
19:00<_dp_>because it's a work for no reason?
19:00<_dp_>if he has another liv/grain goal he can take goods on that factory
19:01<ST2>it's a work to complete a goal - and if the map is HARD... you'll need the cash of train tracks to make the missing 3 tiles for next goal
19:01<ST2>only an example xD
19:01<_dp_>also when I played I always stored produced goods even if no goal required them xD
19:02<ST2><ttd-srv33> Rule #3: Do not steal other players secondary or tertiary cargos. These include GOODS, FOOD, STEEL, PAPER or FIRS related cargos only. (EXCEPTION: BusyBee server, to complete goals)
19:02<_dp_>how's this rule relevant (especially with exception :p)
19:02<ST2>if you take goods and not for completing a Goal of your company, you're breaking that rule
19:03<ST2>so, yes, it's relevant to us
19:03<_dp_>I take my goods and it is for completion (well, if I get goal for it that is xD)
19:04<_dp_>as for missing tiles you're sure doing something wrong if you need that pity money from removing tracks for it xD
19:04<ST2>I guess you haven't played on server
19:05<ST2>or #XX or even #97
19:06<ST2>now imagine a mix
19:06<_dp_>I played but that was some time ago
19:08<_dp_>hm, I start to think of some kind of min cost max flow to generate goals xD
19:09<ST2>with multiplier at 100%, min is 75, max is 3500
19:09<ST2>no matter the cargo type
19:10<ST2>if you mess with the cargo type, try to keep it compatible with any newgrf that can be used
19:11<ST2>or even among climates ^^
19:12<ST2>maybe gets easier if listed on TE_**
19:12<ST2>but not with others
19:12<_dp_>if I ever mess with BB I'll probably just write it from scratch
19:12<_dp_>without gs coz it sucks :p
19:13<ST2>hehe xD
19:13<ST2>has it's limitations... we know :)
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19:18<ST2>well, actually, and since I had merged BB with functions needed for server controller, I added the BeeReward too, and make it depending on a setting
19:18<ST2>with a multiplier ^^
19:18<ST2>oh well, we never know when we need to change the server xD
19:19<ST2>but I guess you already know that, since, as you say, lang files are on the saves
19:25<_dp_>not like I read your lang files for long enough)
19:25<_dp_>anyway, time to sleep, bb))
19:26<ST2>gn8 :)
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19:27<ST2>_dp_: you have the lang file directly - you didn't read it from saves - I know it
19:28<ST2>aka: time to cut the crap :D
19:28<ST2>but ok, it's not a national secret ^^
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19:48<Quinch>Hello, got a few questions if someone feels like answering.
19:48<Quinch>First, how do multihead trains affect reliability? Do more engines decay faster or no?
19:49<ST2>Quinch, it's on channel topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:50<ST2>about that, and as far as I know: multiheaded trains sum power, but only the 1st loco handle reliability
19:53<Quinch>Cool, so I can lead with a 95% engine and the rest can be trash?
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19:54<ST2>well, are you playing with breakdowns ON or OFF?
19:55<Quinch>Otherwise reliability wouldn't be an issue.
19:55<ST2>so, take care of the lead loco
19:55<ST2>well, page to start is here:
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20:06<Quinch>Second question, for cargo, how is travel time/distance calculated? As a straight line from the originating and destination points, or total distance traveled?
20:07<FLHerne>Quinch: The former
20:07<ST2>check ingame graphics
20:07<Quinch>Also, is cargo decay calculated while the train is loading/waiting in station, or just while it's moving?
20:07<FLHerne>Also the former
20:07<Quinch>So, smaller trains are actually more efficient?
20:08<ST2>as FLHerne said: The former
20:08<FLHerne>On that specidic measure, yes
20:08<+glx>that's why it's better to always have a vehicle loading in station, but not wait too long
20:08<Quinch>What's the pros of long, multihead trains then?
20:08<FLHerne>You need more short trains
20:08<ST2>maybe Quinch needs this link
20:09<+glx>long coal trains are nice
20:09<+glx>(easy money)
20:09<FLHerne>Higher infrastructure costs (can be a major factor on large networks), also running and purchase costs in many sets favour long trains
20:10<ST2>I'll never use a 14 tile train for deliver 20 tiles distance
20:10<FLHerne>Infra maintenance doesn't scale linearly with network size
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20:10<+glx>of course small distance is better with short train
20:11<ST2>and btw, vanilla Infra maintenance is a bugged thing
20:11<+glx>and that also depends on industry output
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20:12<Quinch_>I think I got disconnected.
20:12<Quinch_>But yeah, I use trains for medium/long range hauling.
20:12<ST2>glx: if producing industry has a high output... deliver close is not an option ^^
20:12<Quinch_>Short shuttling, go for boats or trucks, depending on how much I need to carry.
20:13<ST2>at least if want to make profit
20:13<+glx>boats are slow
20:13<Quinch_>And planes if I need to provide secondary goods to industries.
20:13<Quinch_>Which also brings me to the question, other than production tiers, do any of FIRS2 industries vary their output?
20:14<+glx>even for offshore oil I prefer to raise land near the platform and use train
20:14<ST2>glx: some online servers dnt allow it - becaise blocks other players from using the resource
20:15<Islacrusez>glx, I love doing that with massively stacked oil rigs; tasty tasty 12-block long oil trains
20:16<Islacrusez>preferably to a refinery at least 500 tiles away
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20:16<+glx>just to have them closed just before the first train arrives ;)
20:16<ST2>distance only matters accounting vehicles speeds (and the paying rates too ^^)
20:17<FLHerne>ST2: I disagree, the non-linear infra maintenance is a very good incentive against ugly networks
20:17<Islacrusez>I think it takes about half that distance for that juggernaut to get to speed, and the other half to slow down in time :P
20:18-!-Quinch_ is now known as Quinch
20:18<Quinch>Islacrusez, use multiheads then?
20:18<ST2>FLHerne: I could disagree too, until I set a server where ~500 electric track gave 40million expenses
20:19<Islacrusez>I think I had three locos in there
20:19<ST2>and yes, was without grf's
20:19<Islacrusez>possibly four
20:19<Islacrusez>let's just say that after it pulled out of the station there wasn't a single turn or elevation change
20:20<ST2>FLHerne: 40million expenses, was talking on Euros
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20:21<Islacrusez>the bigger problem turned out to be reliability
20:21<FLHerne>ST2: That's where you go back and look for old track that you don't need
20:22<Quinch>Anyway, anyone know much about FIRS?
20:22<ST2>FLHerne: it's not expected players to remove tracks not needed - aka tracks that train made to deliver cargo
20:23<FLHerne>That's why having a game mechanic that pushes people to do it is a good thing :-)
20:24<FLHerne>I'm tired of servers where people have just randomly sprawled tracks across the map with about two trains per million tiles
20:24<ST2>FLHerne: I'll get some free time next weekend
20:24<ST2>and I'll setup a server with it
20:24<ST2>care you to test?
20:24<ST2>and survive :D
20:25<FLHerne>Sounds fun, I don't think I'm doing anything
20:27<ST2>ok, for now you can see BTPro server #XX, Infra maintenance is now set to 1/31 via basecosts newgrf
20:27<ST2>imagine as 1/1
20:27<FLHerne>Well, for right now it's 1:20am and I'm going to sleep ;-)
20:27<ST2>same time as here: 1:27
20:28<ST2>and yes, I work at 8:30 am ^^
20:29<FLHerne>Good morning, then
20:29<ST2>kinda xD
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20:30<ST2>note: our server srv13A (that you joined) is an easy one ^^
20:31<Quinch_>Oh, another question, does crossing a square diagonally count as a full traverse?
20:32<Quinch_>No, wait, that's been answered by the distance question.
20:33<ST2>manhattan distance is the key :)
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20:36<Quinch_>Anyway, no FIRS experts around?
20:37<ST2>what FIRS version?
20:38<ST2>because FIRS 1.4.* and FIRS 2+ are a bit different
20:39<ST2>all what you need to know ^^
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20:48<Quinch_>More along the lines of strategies.
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20:59<Quinch_>Oh, one more thing. What exactly "refit to any cargo" does?
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21:47<Sylf>with firs, I first focus on engineering supplies.
21:48<Sylf>creating engineering supplies, then transport them back to the primary industries that you used to create them
21:48-!-Quinch_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:48<Sylf>oh nevermind. OP isn't listening
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 06 00:00:48 2016