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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-08

---Logopened Wed Jun 08 00:00:51 2016
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03:51<Wolf01>o/
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07:29<Samu>hi
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08:13<Samu>123
08:13<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/J5ahhNB.png - ship vs aircraft vs road vehicles vs trains
08:14<Samu>NoCAB doing trains isn't as spectacular as i thought though
08:14<Samu>perhaps i could use trAIns or some other
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08:57<Samu>what's the best road vehicle AI?
08:57<Samu>I should try a different kind of competition
08:57<Samu>a competition to find the best of each transport type
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09:15<Alkel_U3>last time I checked - for competition I'd guess Rondje om de Kerk :-)
09:15<jaenster>hmm.. i dont know.. MPS bus?
09:16<Alkel_U3>although I have no idea if AI developement succeeded its nefarious ways to make profit
09:16<Alkel_U3>(it's 5 yrs old)
09:17<greeter>lol
09:19<jaenster>rondtje om de kerk
09:20<jaenster>its still a epic name for a AI
09:20<greeter>sounds quite foreign, at least to me
09:20<jaenster>Its dutch, which i speak
09:20<greeter>i thought it sounded south african, which has a similar language
09:20<jaenster>we had a problem here that the real people from the trains didnt want to get all the time the same route
09:21<greeter>hmm?
09:21<jaenster>They traindrivers in the netherlands drive all the time the same route
09:21<jaenster>they get bored
09:21<greeter>oh i see. yeah, i imagine so. train driving isn't exactly the most exciting job at the best of times
09:21<jaenster>that problem is called "Rondtje om de kerk", wich litterly means "Round around the church"
09:21<greeter>lol i see
09:22<jaenster>so.. the AI is called after that problem ^^
09:22<supermop_>yo
09:22<greeter>greetings supermop_
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09:26<supermop_>how are things going here
09:26<greeter>so far so good. you?
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09:31<Samu>darn, BorkAI has a bad starting on huge maps
09:31<Islacrusez>o/
09:31<Samu>it's "caching" every possible connection
09:32<Samu>idles way too long
09:35<Samu>oh, it started 6 months later
09:36<Samu>with 250k ops
09:37<Samu>pff, i can't test it like this :(
09:37<Samu>better test solo AIs
09:38-!-Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd
09:43<Samu>Wormnest: hi, do you know what is the best road vehicle AI?
09:44<Wormnest>Samu: It probably depends on what you call best and under what conditions you do the test
09:44<Wormnest>But I would guess that Terron, RoadRunner and maybe also NoCAB do pretty well
09:44<Samu>one that gets most money over 100 years
09:45<Samu>oki
09:45<Samu>tell me 8 AIs, will be testing them solo
09:45<Samu>8 that use road vehicles
09:45<Samu>terron, roadrunner, NoCAB
09:46<Wormnest>Hm I never did look at roadvehicle performance too close
09:46<jaenster>With paxdest its more eyecandy
09:46<Wormnest>RobotAI2 does ok too but I dont think its on bananas
09:47<Samu>I don't know of that one :o
09:47<Samu>yeah, I prefer bananas ais
09:47<jaenster>what is banana?
09:47<Wormnest>OtVI is ok too
09:47<Wormnest>bananas is the online content
09:48<supermop_>need to sneal out of office for some coffe
09:48<supermop_>e
09:48<Samu>hmm Otvi, not sure how to configure that one
09:48<Samu>but will try something
09:48<Wormnest>There´s nothing you can configure there lol
09:49<Samu>yeah, but i wanted to restrict to road vehicles only
09:50<Samu>disable road vehicles for AI or max trains, ships, air to 0?
09:50<Wormnest>Maybe also Synaptic, aiai, admiral
09:50<Samu>oops, not road vehicles
09:50<Wormnest>Yeah set max to 0 for the others and hope they don´t protest by stopping themselves
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09:53<Samu>configuring 8 openttd configs with notepad++ is nice
09:53<Samu>it replaces for all opened documents
09:55<Samu>terron, roadrunner, nocab, otvi, synaptic, aiai, admiral
09:55<Wormnest>I´m using it too for AI development
09:55<Samu>7, need 1 more, I will try MogulAI, from my usual testings, he's quite fast and maxing out 5000 vehicles
09:56<Wormnest>Ofcourse the nocab version I fixed is less likely to cause problems than the version on bananas
09:57<Wormnest>Although cars should probably be ok
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09:59<Samu>synaptic is SysTrans, right?
09:59<Samu>oops, SynTrans
10:01<Wormnest>yes
10:14<Samu>i can't configure Syntrans parameters, seems bugged
10:14<Samu>SynTrans = log_level=3,start_date=1
10:15<Samu>there is no log level setting
10:15<Samu>there's a max distance for route
10:15<Samu>but can't seem to change it
10:16<Wormnest>distance it seems can´t be changed in game
10:16<Wormnest>maybe it checks log level only once in a while
10:18<Samu>i'm launcing the 8 servers at the same time
10:23<Samu>oh, right, they're 1.6.1-RC1 servers
10:23<Samu>https://www.openttd.org/en/servers
10:25<Samu>exact same map seed for all
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10:27<supermop_>coffee shop out of v60 filters
10:27<Samu>eh... syntrans is trying to build rail t.t
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10:29<Wolf01>o/
10:29<@Alberth>hi hi
10:29<Samu>poor syntrans
10:29<Samu>must recheck him
10:30<Alkel_U3>that's what I like about my good old moka pot - no fancy filters, (almost) no maintenance
10:30<Alkel_U3>and th rate at which is practical to brew coffee keeps me from heavily overdosing :P
10:32<Wormnest>SynTrans always starts with trying to build a few train lines and after that ignores them
10:33<Samu>just restarted him with different game settings, let's see
10:34<Wormnest>I should have another look at SynTrans sometime I already fixed a crash in it which I should post sometime
10:34<Samu>aha, he started road vehicles now
10:34<Samu>but he's a year late
10:35<Samu>think i could restart the whole servers again, brb
10:35<Wormnest>Well I saw it once wait 40 years trying to find a path for a train route before realising it couldn´t find a path
10:38<Wolf01>how is possible to not find a path? it should have built a station in the worst location possible (eg. the exit against an industry or another unmovable object)
10:47<Wormnest>I haven´t looked at it´s pathfinding code maybe other ai´s were faster building something where it wanted to
10:48<Samu>I'll be doing these tests for aircraft, ships and trains as well, but not today
10:53<Wormnest>Nice, although there´s a lot of factors that can influence the results
11:01<Samu>impressive start for RoadRunner, but NoCAB is about to take him in profit real soon
11:01<Samu>NoCAB took 4 months to build first route
11:02<Samu>they both start with buses
11:02<Samu>interesting
11:03<Samu>I see mogul doesn't actually lead
11:03<Samu>doesn't use buses at all
11:03<Samu>everything is coal
11:04<Samu>pass > coal, it's confirmed
11:05<Samu>I wonder if the "realistic" acceleration model is affecting this outcome
11:05<Samu>meh, don't care for now
11:08<Samu>steepness 10% for road vehicles, on all servers
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11:19<Samu>roadrunner is surprising me
11:19<Wormnest>Yea NoCAB is kinda slow to start since it´s computing proftability of a lot of connections
11:19<Samu>roadrunner still leads, terron is now coming ahead of nocab
11:19<Samu>1st roadrunner, 2nd terron, 3rd nocab
11:20<Samu>actually, 3rd place for otvi, 4th for nocab, nearly tied
11:20<Samu>last place syntrans, for now
11:21<Wormnest>What year did you start
11:21<Samu>1950
11:22<Samu>they're all doing great
11:22<Samu>profiting, and massing vehicles
11:22<Wormnest>I´ve noticed that some ai´s do better at an early start year than others
11:22<Samu>they're all over 200 road vehicles
11:22<Wormnest>but that´s probably more noticeable if all vehicle types are available
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11:24<Samu>i see AIAI and Mogul only compete with trucks, no buses
11:24<Wormnest>What´s also interesting to see how ai´s handle reaching the max allowed number of vehicles
11:24<Wormnest>Some hardly do anything in that case instead of trying to opmtimise things
11:25<Samu>strange, AIAI can build buses
11:25<Samu>it's on his settings
11:25<Samu>unless it's just a fake setting?
11:25<Wormnest>Maybe it think´s at that time trucks are more profitable
11:26<Samu>ah, he has only 3 routes with buses, my bad, sorry
11:26<Samu>Mogul seems to be the only one doing pure industries
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11:29<Samu>mogul = pure industries, syntrans = pure buses
11:29<Samu>it seems
11:30<Samu>i'm not too familiar with syntrans, need to test this ai more often
11:32<Wormnest>Yea in the game I have SynTrans only has buses too
11:33<Samu>roadrunner is the first over 500 rvs
11:33<Samu>not even 4 years into the game
11:34<Samu>the limit is 5000
11:38<supermop_>what if cargo sprites were separate from vehicle sets
11:39<supermop_>V453000: like instead of compositing within your grf, the cargo/industry set provided sprites of unitized amounts of cargo
11:40<@Alberth>what if you then need 2.5 cargo sprites?
11:40<supermop_>and you put those pallets of bricks or whatever onto your flatbeds
11:41<supermop_>Alberth: its not well suited to artistes making vehicles to different scales
11:41<@Alberth>I thought so :)
11:41<supermop_>in fact it might be a better idea for a completely different game
11:41<supermop_>but its a fun thought experiment for me
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11:42<supermop_>you'd have to then rework vehicles to have properties like, can hold 10 pallets, 20, or 40 etc
11:43<supermop_>and a precast concrete pipe is 2 pallets, a huge transformer is 20 etc
11:43<Gja>hej
11:43<supermop_>a container is 40
11:44<supermop_>then standardize the value of a pallet, which to be honest hasn't yet completely happened in the real world
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11:44<@Alberth>RW is flawed :p
11:44<Samu>looking at CPU Time, the most CPU intensive is ... not surprisingly... NoCAB
11:44<@Alberth>I wonder what's left for the wagon designer then
11:45<@Alberth>mostly just the width of the wagon?
11:45<Samu>least CPU intensive is AdmiralAI
11:46<Samu>and he's not in last place even
11:46<Samu>kinda neat
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11:48<Wormnest>NoCAB is the one most like a real company doing a lot of profitability computations
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11:53<Samu>roadrunner, first over 1000 rvs
11:53<Samu>terron is attempting to beat roadrunner in profits
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12:01<Samu>terron is the new leader in profits :)
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12:06<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/inZIqpY.png - first 6 years
12:06<Samu>I notice NoCAB server is being delayed
12:06<Samu>too cpu intensive t.t
12:07<Samu>oops, i've hidden the finances of 2 AIs lol
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12:29<Samu>damn it's hard to point a flaw in any of them
12:29<Samu>they're doing really well
12:31<Samu>OtviAI is the first with over 2000 rvs
12:33<@Alberth>not enough competition :p
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12:37<Samu>OtviAi is now also the first in profits
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12:42<Samu>strange that roadrunner lost its boosting momentum
12:43<Samu>it's still building new routes, but that initial boom lost its strength
12:44<Samu>some AIs are stagnating in profits, while those that were behind are still booming
12:45<Samu>AdmiralAI, Mogul, AIAI are probably going to compete in the first 4 it seems
12:46<Samu>nocab, terron, roadrunner have slowed down in profits... strange
12:47<Samu>i have to see what's happening with nocab, he's actually starting to decrease profits
12:48<Samu>ah, the script died unexpectedly
12:48<Samu>poor nocab
12:49<Samu>probably that dreaded saving took too long
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12:50<Samu>last place for NoCAB
13:02<Samu>otvi is first to 5000 rvs
13:03<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/N2StTRb.png
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13:04<Samu>in 10 years + 1 month, 5000 road vehicles, that is crazy
13:09<Wormnest>If you had used my fixed version of nocab it wouldn´t have crashed
13:11<Samu>will you upload it to banana servers?
13:12<Wormnest>Not sure, maybe I should
13:12<Wormnest>I still got some new local fixes I have to commit
13:17<Samu>heh, who's going to be 2nd with 5000? Mogul vs Admiral
13:17<Samu>they're hurrying it up
13:20<Samu>oh, mogul server is behind a few months
13:20<Samu>have to take that into account
13:20<Wormnest>But amount of vehicles doesn´t have to say much about how well they do
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13:21<Samu>I know, that's why I like run these tests for 100 years
13:23<Samu>ever since otvi reached 5000 cap, its server became slow, really slow
13:24<Samu>it was running well
13:24<Samu>now it's sluggish
13:24<Samu>it doesn't seem to handle that cap too well
13:25<Samu>2nd to 5000, Mogul
13:26<Samu>even with the few months delay
13:27<Samu>syntrans just got a bankrupt warning
13:27<Samu>he's always working too close to the loan limit
13:32<Wormnest>If my memory is right it often replaces a whole lot of vehicles all at once
13:33<Samu>yes, he sold about 60 now, and filled them again
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13:33<Samu>it became faster during that transition, now it's sluggish again
13:34<Samu>3rd to 5000, Admiral
13:34<Samu>AIAI is also close
13:35<Samu>May 1962 - 5000 rvs for AdmiralAI
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13:35<Samu>AIAI server is also delayed, let's see
13:36<Samu>Jun 1961 - 5000 rvs for MogulAI
13:36<Samu>Jan 1960 - 5000 rvs for Otvi
13:37<Samu>another bankrupt warning for syntrans... he's really risking it
13:37<Samu>it's not like he doesn't have money, he got 600k profit every 3 month
13:37<Samu>but he works so close to the limit...
13:38<Samu>it's always triggering it
13:38<Wormnest>he´s not the only one I´ve seen doing that
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13:56<Samu>bankrupt
13:56<Samu>poor syntrans
13:57<Samu>7th place
13:57<frosch123>evening mammals and gastropods
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14:01<Samu>hi
14:05<Samu>i will submit the savegames where he bankrupts but loading its AI crashes and won't trigger the bankrupt anymore
14:10<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=57136&p=1170380#p1170380
14:10<supermop_>hmm the deck i designed to cost $15,000 will cost $25,000-$30,000 according to contractor submitting a bid
14:10<supermop_>that seems like a lot for a wood platform to stand on and grill on
14:12<Wormnest>I think I have a fix locally for the savegame crash of SynTrans
14:16<Samu>he didn't crash, it bankrupted
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14:16<Samu>oh, sorry, u right lol
14:16<Samu>wasn't paying attention
14:16<Wormnest>hehe that happens
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14:17<Samu>4th to 5000, AIAI
14:17<Samu>May 1964
14:18<Samu>I'm only testing 6 now :(
14:18<Samu>roadrunner and terron are too far away from getting to 5000
14:19<Samu>Otvi still leads in profits, though its server became too slow now
14:19-!-NoShlomo [~NoShlomo@90.74.151.136] has quit []
14:20<Samu>it's already delayed by 3 years in comparison to the one further ahead
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14:21<Samu>admiralai, for what it does, surprises me, in terms of cpu usage
14:21<Samu>it's quite low
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14:22<Samu>terron is also low in cpu usage, but he's now last place
14:22<Samu>last in profits
14:22<Samu>i dont understand what's happened to terron
14:23<Samu>he seems too careful about his vehicles
14:23<Samu>always in the range of 1600-1800 vehicles, profit has stagnated
14:24<Samu>maybe that's how he works
14:25<Samu>"road expansion complete!"
14:25<Samu>heh, what does that mean? no more work?
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14:40<andythenorth>o/
14:43<andythenorth>blueprint mode
14:44<andythenorth>what a crap suggestion
14:45<andythenorth>50% of the gameplay revolves around not gridlocking your network whilst changing junctions :P
14:45<andythenorth>“the same could have been said about signals and pathfinders andythenorth”
14:46<Wolf01>o/
14:56<V453000>0.13 hype?
14:56<Wolf01>I can't understand how steam updates works: lately it seem that downloads to 50%, stops and schedule the restart 1 minute after; if I set a download limit and the time when it must be active, it doesn't even work, if it is active it stays active even outside the time and if it's not active it stays not active when in the time; if it's limited, the speed doesn't match the limit, if I set the
14:56<Wolf01>limit to 100kbps it downloads say 400kb at 150kbps and then drops to 0 for 10 seconds :|
14:56<Wolf01>hype
14:58<Wolf01>I think steam should really consider to use the torrent protocol like the blizzard updater
15:01<Samu>torrent is bad
15:01<Samu>only good in theory
15:02<Samu>or until ISPs stop capping connections
15:06<Wolf01>andythenorth, the new bricklink is online :D
15:07<Samu>i hated when blizzard started doing torrent transfers when I had a monthly cap of 100 MB or some sort
15:07<Samu>1000 MB
15:07<Samu>typo
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15:08<Samu>past 1000 MB download, connection speeds plummeted
15:08<Samu>thx to blizzard torrents which I wasn't aware at first
15:09<Wolf01>I don't think it would have changed with a standard download
15:10<Samu>it was uploading to others....
15:11<Samu>how could a company like blizzard resort to such tactics, aren't they rich enough? ...
15:11<Samu>using my bandwidth to server their other customers... meh
15:11<Samu>serve*
15:12<Alkel_U3>iirc that used to be an issue with skype, too
15:14<Wolf01>the only issue I had with skype was the use of the port 80 by default
15:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: ‘shiny'
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16:08<Samu>roadrunner is slowly building up to 5000 rvs
16:08<Samu>currently at 4600
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16:34<Samu>5000
16:36<Samu>5th to 5000, roadrunner, Jul 1974
16:36<Samu>now terron... only at 2000
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16:50<Samu>faster trucks are showing up, :)
16:50<Samu>it may change the leaderboard, we'll see
16:54<Samu>roadrunner is again leading, but it has a 9 year advantage, otvi server is really struggling :(
16:54<Samu>leading in profits
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17:04<Samu>I see a change in the leaderboard, interesting
17:04<Samu>admiral ai is renewing all his vehicles with faster models
17:05<Samu>roadrunner also seems to be doing the same, but in a slower manner
17:05<Samu>terron is always up-to-date, no single vehicle is old
17:06<Samu>otvi, unfortunately is delayed, time is passing slow for its server
17:07<Samu>still using the previous models
17:10<Samu>mogul is a strange one, his profit graph differs from everone else, it's peaky
17:10<Samu>his server is also being delayed somewhat
17:11<Samu>akin to otvi, but not as severe
17:14<Samu>and then there's aiai, with models over 24 years old
17:14<Samu>he only seems to upgrade them to the newer models, not renew them~
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17:23<Wormnest>My own wormai could use some improvements in that area too
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17:38<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/j42eLA9.png
17:38<Samu>look at mogul profit, it's always like that, with those peaks
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17:52<Wormnest>I´ve seen same behavior with other ai´s too sometimes
17:53<Samu>i wish i could fit more information on the screen
17:53<Samu>gonna try virtual super resolution thingy
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17:56<Samu>my eyes
17:56<Samu>everything so small now, but at least I can open up some more windows
17:56<@Rubidium>probably a scheme for something, e.g. winning the high score or preventing bankruptcy (=4x negative bank balance at start of quarter), so not spending money for one quarter prevents it (but it's not needed if the bank balance is high enough)
18:13<Samu>windows 10 screenshot feature fails... doesn't detect the real virtual res
18:17<Samu>bandicam for the rescue http://i.imgur.com/sCWU5d4.png
18:18<Samu>im also surprised imgur accepts images this big
18:25<Samu>from this perpsective, it looks like Mogul is in last place
18:25<Samu>least profits
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>bankrupcy is weird, because it includes the maintenance costs deducted at start of the month, so even if you're positive the whole month, you could go bankrupt
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18:42<Samu>yeah, maybe it could be changed, to perhaps, check in mid of a month
18:43<Samu>or the last day of the month
18:51<supermop_>patch to add dynamic credit scoring to the game?
18:55<ST2>you can be with negative balance almost all year, less the days that amount is checked, quarterly
18:55<ST2>simple as that ^^
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the problem with that is if you always spend as much cash as you can into building infrastructure, the monthly payments will kill you, even though they make only a tiny fraction of what you earn
18:56<ST2>someone already suggested about admin port updates (including those checks) being done monthly, instead of quarterly
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18:57<ST2>and a patch was submitted
18:57<ST2>we dnt use it because of admin port compatibility
18:59<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: you saying bank balance is only checked after all the month "discounts/expenses, that you dnt have idea to know in advance?
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes
18:59<ST2>ah :)
19:00<ST2>it's a pain, yeah :S
19:00<ST2>when I play, I only worry to have a fat bank balance on the quarters change
19:01<ST2>and spend the rest of the days
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>and i never care for the date
19:01<ST2>hehe
19:01<ST2>requires practice, yes ^^
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>and that's useless...
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19:02<Samu>earlier today, syntrans bankrupted with 2700 vehicles
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19:02<ST2>how the game works, right?!
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>we can change how the game works.
19:02<Samu>a fat profit of 600k
19:02<ST2>you only adjust your play habits :P
19:03<ST2>yeah, Eddi, someone already tried
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>there are situations where you do that, and there are situations where you don't.
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>also, i should attack france, but they joined a coalition. and all the other options are not ready yet :/
19:04<ST2>apply a patch to it, and police gets disabled ^^
19:05<Samu>maybe i should look for the bankrupcy check in the code
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is not the coalition, but that nobody of my allies wants to join
19:05<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: I'll guess you're not talking about ttd ^^
19:06<ST2>Samu: it's quarterly
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>no, why would i :p
19:06<ST2>Eddi|zuHause: man, you're free to play what you want ^^
19:06<Samu>if i can change something in there, it would be to make it check on the last day of the month
19:06<ST2>who am I to question ;)
19:06<Samu>to avoid those expenses things
19:07<Samu>on the first day
19:07<ST2>Samu: you can change and will work well on SP
19:07<ST2>you can even send it to admin port
19:07<ST2>but that will cause desyncs on online servers
19:08<ST2>unless client is patched too
19:08<Samu>oh, right... damn online servers
19:08<ST2>with exact same changes
19:08<Samu>ok, then i won't touch it
19:08<ST2>you can have an example
19:09<ST2>CM, BTPro and n-ice custom clients have a window to count cargo delivered
19:09<ST2>on client side only
19:09<Samu>it must comply with onlinability
19:10<Samu>:(
19:11<ST2>I'm in favour of communities be free to provide own changed clients, since don't interfer with gameplay
19:12<ST2>there's a patch (copy/Paste) tracks
19:12<ST2>that can be changed to be compatible with MP games
19:12<ST2>that, we consider an unfair advantage
19:12<ST2>and we'll never add it on our client
19:14<ST2>Samu: but you can check most of the Community clients - changes are mostly about GUI stuff
19:15<ST2>CityMania client has more advanced features - the advanced ones only work on their servers (changes accordingly)
19:16<ST2>can be used on Vanilla servers too, but advanced stuff won't show
19:17<ST2>so, basically, there's changes you can make and keep MP compatibility... others you can't
19:17<ST2>it's all about what happens on server (players interaction, etc etc)
19:18<ST2>crap, I'm talking too much :P
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19:18<Samu>well i know that, I don't quite like it
19:20<Samu>someone could find me right away where I am building, it's quite an advantage
19:20<ST2>Samu: try run Vanilla and try, for example BTPro client - all changes on the custom client are GUI stuff
19:20<ST2>dnt change the game itself
19:20<Samu>it's some sort of map hack for openttd
19:21<supermop_>so much for competitive bidding and the free market
19:21<ST2>devs don't like we call it Openttd <stable-version>
19:21<ST2>but are only gui changes on client side
19:22<Samu>it would be fine for server admins, but it's unfair in my opinion, for those who come to play, unles
19:22<Samu>everyone uses it
19:22<supermop_>of three contractors bidding on this job, 2 didn't even bother to show up to the site visit yesterday, and the other is bidding 10,000 over budget
19:23<ST2>Samu: you can make even more changes, and that would make you the only person on advantage
19:23<ST2>we make it public
19:23<ST2>what's wrong with it?
19:23<supermop_>and one of the no shows emailed to apologize and ask to reschedule 2 hours after the visit, and then when i suggested some times for tomorrow, has not responded to any emails, and voicemailbox is full
19:23<supermop_>at least none of the stuff going wrong with the project is explicitly my fault yet
19:24<ST2>supermop_: you have a gun, right?! SOLVED!!!
19:24<ST2>xD
19:25<supermop_>New Open TTD patch idea: if you build a small amount of track, it has x% chance of costing y% more than normal, because only one contractor bothered to bid, and therefore he feels like ripping you off
19:25<supermop_>ST2: i think that would result in fewer contractors bidding on the job, not more
19:26<ST2>supermop_: there's not a more or less concept - there's only a right value
19:26<supermop_>we just need a socialist state economy with an inefficient bureaucracy in charge of building backyard decks for people
19:27<ST2>we need a do'er economy... not a talker one
19:27<supermop_>that way you know that it will cost exactly 200% of normal, and will be completed 10 years from schedule, nothing else to worry about
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: by experience, that just results in fewer things being built
19:27<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: exactly
19:27<supermop_>at least i would know that the project would never get built in that case
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, state economies don't kill the free markets, they just go underground
19:29<Samu>time for me to sleep
19:29<Samu>hybernating this
19:29<Samu>cyas good night
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19:30<supermop_>the contractors i am soliciting bids for are already about as black market as i can get and still get formal bids from
19:31<supermop_>don't ask too many questions about who is doing the labor, if they are union, or even if they know what they are doing
19:31<supermop_>just get a cheap (for NYC) price and pay cash
19:32<supermop_>if they suggest an alternate material because they happened to get 'a great deal' on some, don't worry too much about that either
19:36<supermop_>also i am guessing a shitty 'design by committee' would necessitate me being in the office until 8:00pm
19:36<supermop_>*wouldnt
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19:42<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how free markets help avoiding a "design by committee"
19:56<supermop_>maybe it is time for this committee of one to go home for the night
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