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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-12

---Logopened Sun Jun 12 00:00:57 2016
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03:45<_johannes>do we have any experts for the OpenTTD Makefiles here?
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03:54<andythenorth>Alberth: o/
03:55<@Alberth>moin andy
03:56<_johannes>where can I see who usually commits Makefiles?
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04:02*andythenorth debugging graphics pipelines :P
04:04<@Alberth>_johannes: the commit log of said make files? :)
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04:24<andythenorth>ha ha ha
04:24<andythenorth>‘debugging’ = discovering the code already does what is needed
04:24<andythenorth>just had to find the magic parameter
04:27<@Alberth>ha, code outsmarts author, that's a good sign :)
04:28<@Alberth>it means the code is getting mature, and handling things you didn't expect
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04:32<@Alberth>no freight in BRtrains, it seems
04:37<andythenorth>early days
04:47<andythenorth>for some reason the tech ladder in my grfs is 10 years ahead of reality
04:48<andythenorth>I thought it was just a few vehicles with stats dibbled up, but it’s nearly everything :)
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04:51<@Alberth>real tycoons want the big stuff as early as possible, money is no object :p
04:54<Alkel_U3>I like it that way. It's just natural that a universe where _I_ direct all the transporting is technologicaly, socialy and economicaly advanced :P
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05:07<_johannes>Alberth: I know, but IIRC git is just synced? I.e. these are the "syn authors"?
05:08<_johannes>it's probably SVN that I need to check?
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05:18<@Rubidium>_johannes: why would you need to know the expert? And why is the person doing the most commits the expert?
05:18<_johannes>Rubidium: ok, you're right :)
05:18<@Rubidium>and what do you actually want to know?
05:19<_johannes>anyways, I have developped a new video driver for the OpenTTD code which needs to be compiled with C++11 support
05:19<_johannes>now I'd like to let the Makefile compile this part exactly if the user's compiler has the -std=c++11 flag
05:20<_johannes>so something like "if compiler_has_c++11_flags { compile video_driver/my_video_driver with std=c++11 } else { don't compile it }"
05:21<@Rubidium>can't you detect that from some compile time define?
05:21<_johannes>Rubidium: good idea...
05:22<@Rubidium>I guess #if __cplusplus >= 201103L around the files of your driver would suffice
05:23<_johannes>Rubidium: however, if the user then just runs the whole Makefile with as usual, and the compiler has std=c++03 by default, the compile will compile my driver with c++03 and print errors
05:25<@Rubidium>if that happens, then the standards version is not passed properly into the define and the compiler is flawed
05:28<_johannes>Rubidium: ah, I see, you're right
05:28<_johannes>good point, many thanks!
05:42<Samu>setting gui.autosave, range goes from 0 to 4
05:42<Samu>which one is monthly?
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05:44<Samu>nevermind, got it, it's 1
05:44<Samu>shouldn't it be reversed?
05:44<Samu>0 = less saves, 4 = more saves
05:45<Samu>0 = no saves, 1 = monthly, 2 = every 3 months, 3 = every 6 months, 4 = every year
05:46<Samu>hi Wormnest
05:46<Samu>how's your nocab
05:47<Samu>what will it be named when u upload to banana server?
05:47<Samu>WormCAB :)
05:48<Wormnest>Well actually my dev version is called WormCAB lol
05:48<Samu>oh, :)
05:48<Wormnest>First of all I haven´t decided yet if I should put it on bananas
05:49<Wormnest>If I do I lean to naming it something like ¨NoCAB Fixed¨ or something
05:49<Wormnest>To make it clear that the intention is to fix bugs in the original not to enhance it
05:50<Wormnest>But I´m open to other suggestions :)
05:51<Samu>uhm, you can't upload on behalf of nocab author?
05:51<Samu>i mean, he uploads it?
05:53<Samu>you give him the fixed version, he updates the current banana version, to avoid a new, similar nocab, i guess
05:53<Samu>but i don't know how that works
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05:54<Samu>there's always copyrights and licenses and stuff like that which only makes things harder to do
05:54<andythenorth>also cat
05:55<Wormnest>Well I´ve posted in the NoCAB development version thread and he hasn´t posted a reply so I´m not sure if he´s interested
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05:55<Wormnest>License shouldn´t be a problem since it´s GPL2 so me posting my own version is allowed
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05:57<Samu>i expect today that NoCAB will be reaching 2051
05:58<Samu>i couldn't save or let anyone join for the entirety of his run, but it looks like NoCAB is stable when it doesn't have to save
05:58<Samu>100 years stable
05:58<Samu>that's the 2.1.3 version though
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05:58<Samu>stable for road vehicles at least
05:59<Samu>I will attempt to do the final save on 1st jan 2051. I know it will crash him, but at least we can take a look at his stuff
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06:01<Samu>should be really nasty, he spams roads
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06:01<@Alberth>moin, W
06:03<Wormnest>I found another crash yesterday where it didn´t refit when replacing a vehicle but that´s not likely to happen for rvs
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06:07<Samu>cluelessplus server just reached 2051, nice :)
06:11<Samu>takes 2nd place in company value
06:13<Samu>dictatorai server is next
06:13<Samu>dictatorai won't impress
06:14<Samu>i was honestly expecting better
06:14<Samu>maybe the parameters I used weren't the best
06:16<Samu>i think the removal of roads might be working against him
06:17<Samu>he's very clean
06:17<Samu>maybe too clean
06:17<Samu>that I think it's disadvantageous
06:19<Wormnest>Maybe he´s being careful in case infrastructure maintenance is turned on
06:21<Samu>it's interesting to see dictatorai doing it, though
06:21<Samu>it clearly shows that 5000 rvs is, from an AI + map size perspective, a very limited cap
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06:22<Samu>he got about 1100 rvs
06:22<Samu>but when i look at the map and multiply the number of roads by 5, i see that 1024x1024 is HUGE for 5000
06:23<Samu>in other words
06:23<Samu>5000 road vehicles is very limiting
06:24<Samu>i wish this cap could be raised
06:27<Samu>about 12,800 road pieces to accomodate 1100 vehicles
06:27<Samu>that's about 60k road pieces
06:27<Samu>let me look at some other AI with ~63k pieces
06:28<@Alberth>if you need 5K RVs, you're doing something wrong, imho
06:28<@Alberth>you better start using trains then
06:29<@Alberth>probably in some feeder system
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06:30<Wormnest>And letting one AI play alone isn´t your average scenario. Give it 9 competitors and you have 50000 vehicles
06:31<Samu>oh, you're probably right
06:32<Samu>i found mogul with 62k road pieces, there's clearly a lot of empty places in the map
06:32<Samu>but i see your point
06:47<andythenorth>very dubious
06:47<andythenorth>these sprites
06:49<Samu>CPU is finally starting to kick off
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06:50<Samu>he either sleeps too much, or pathfinds too much, seems to be pathfinding for 4 years
06:51<Samu>dbg: [script] [0] [I] Pathfinding...
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06:51<Samu>he pathfinds for too long
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07:09<Samu>dictatorai finished
07:09<Samu>next is likely to be NoCAB, but only later at night
07:09<Samu>and once again, Otvi won't finish
07:10<Samu>this day
07:11<Samu>dictatorai takes last place, of those that have finished without crashing
07:11<Samu>7th in company value
07:13<Samu>1st in tidyness
07:14<Samu>think i'm gonna evaluate road pieces
07:14<Samu>the least, the better
07:14<Samu>considering profits of course
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07:15<Samu>efficiency, that is
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07:28<Wormnest>You should turn infrastructure maintenance on then
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07:32<@Alberth>that'd be total slaughter :p
07:32<Wormnest>Yep and fun to watch
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07:33<Wormnest>Although that 15 WormAI savegame that Samu posted a while back when I turned maintenance on they kept making a profit
07:33<Wormnest>But at that time the routes they had were already making huge profits
07:40<@Alberth>just being lucky :p
07:40<@Alberth>I doubt any of the AIs understands to stop expanding if infra structure goes up :p
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07:46<Wormnest>I think there may be a few that try to be a little aware of it but what´s the fun in not expanding :p
07:47<Wormnest>And I know for sure that turning infra on at the start of a game is a sure way for WormAI to fail soon
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08:19<@Alberth>you could tune to do more blind&fast expansion first, and optimize later
08:21<@Alberth>but progressively improve on optimizing is very complicated
08:21<@Alberth>even we can't do that beyond some limit
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08:50<Samu>nocab is at year 2041
08:50<Samu>i better start paying attention
08:50<Samu>can't miss that save
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08:52<andythenorth>the – views of trucks all have subtle length bugs
08:52<andythenorth>because it makes them look better
08:52<andythenorth>this makes it harder to automate cargo sprites :P
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08:59<andythenorth>procedural bulk cargo pixels? o_O
09:03<monsted_>andythenorth: that sounds like factorio where train cars are different lengths depending on orientation :)
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09:09<Samu>oops, i didn't keep track of TeshiNet parameters that I used, @logs
09:09<Samu>why u no work?
09:12<Samu>bah, i can't remember the parameters that I used
09:14<Samu>nevermind, just found them
09:14<Samu>not what i wanted to paste
09:14<Samu>TeshiNet = start_date=1,use_planes=0
09:14<andythenorth>ha ha
09:14<andythenorth>frosch123 newgrf effects remain an awesome feature ;)
09:18<frosch123>still no rainbow smoke though :p
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09:41<@Alberth>only for unicorns :)
09:44<Samu>setting gui.autosave 1
09:44<Samu>already on clipboard for pasting into nocab server
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09:57<supermop__>good morning
09:57<supermop__>Antheus: procedural everything
09:58<supermop__>ooops: andythenorth
09:59<Alkel_U3>dwarf fortress style
10:07<frosch123>it's funny how the rocket reveals that factorio is a 2d game :p
10:08<Samu>perception is reality
10:09<Wolf01>perception is a lie
10:10<andythenorth>trucks, or not-road-types?
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10:11<frosch123>what capacities do you have in 1970?
10:11<andythenorth>40t for trucks
10:12<andythenorth>~90t for trams
10:12<andythenorth>seems right
10:12<frosch123>hmm, somehow i was not aware that hog has trams
10:12<supermop__>what about for wheelbarrows?
10:12<Samu>oh wow, I thought Factorio was free to play
10:12<andythenorth>nah, they actually employ people and such
10:14<supermop__>put the beer on V453000 's table
10:15*Wolf01 too
10:15<supermop__>not wine for Wolf01 ?
10:16<Wolf01>I can't drink :)
10:16<Samu>i didn't get how to play it
10:16<Samu>i don't think i like it
10:17<Samu>i started as a single guy
10:17<Samu>had to chop down a tree
10:17<supermop__>Alkel_U3: server off?
10:17<Samu>and i stopped there... this is not my kind of game
10:18<Wolf01>didn't you researched automation?
10:18<Samu>feels like playing those stupid custom games on starcraft 2
10:18<Samu>the "builder" unit
10:19<Samu>trying to maintain whatever
10:19<Wolf01>pffff, don't dare to compare arcade games with Factorio
10:20*andythenorth goes back to trucks
10:21<Alkel_U3>supermop__: that's weird, it seems to still be running in the screen and it was online when I checked on it half an hour ago
10:21<andythenorth>I don’t think not-road-types is that big, probably smaller than this newgrf :P
10:22<andythenorth>in complexity + yak-shaving
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10:23<Alkel_U3>supermop__: also I'm compiling the jgrpp on the server now. Checked it on local pc and seems to work well with the infra sharing and other features at similar settings
10:24<Alkel_U3>supermop__: it was paused somehow - prodded the console and it resumed
10:25<V453000>I never had high hopes for Samu :)
10:26<supermop__>Alkel_U3: patched server running now>?
10:28<Samu>uh? :(
10:28<Samu>i also tried minecraft once, it gave me exact same feeling
10:29<Alkel_U3>supermop__: only the vanilla
10:29<Alkel_U3>I still have to alter the server's config
10:29<Samu>uninstalled it instantly
10:30<V453000>minecraft is dumb
10:33<Wolf01>minecraft is only enjoyable in multiplayer, it gets really boring after the first hour of play
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10:34<V453000>I don't see the point even in multiplayer, but doesn't matter
10:34<V453000>what I am interested to know is why didn't Samu expect this kind of game, didn't you watch the trailer
10:34<V453000>because the trailer quite clearly shows what game it is
10:35<_dp_>I got bored in factorio way faster than in minecraft
10:35<Wolf01>I watched the trailer, downloaded the demo, purchased the game, downloaded the full game
10:35<Samu>my first impression was... this looks like simfarm
10:35<Alkel_U3>I did the same
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10:52<Alkel_U3>oh my god, I forgot to apply the patches before compiling -_-
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10:54<V453000>10 hours lost? :P
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10:55<Alkel_U3>5 minutes and some trust in my ability to focus :-)
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11:02<Samu>st2, do u have more ppl joining newgrf servers or the others?
11:03<ST2>more people join the newgrf free servers
11:03<Samu>oh snap :(
11:04<Alkel_U3>supermop__: it is done :-)
11:04<Samu>all 1.6.1 servers have newgrf stuff, ecxcept mine :(
11:05<V453000>no newgrf servers always have the most people, also the most retards
11:07<Samu>i'm always afraid of setting up NewGRFs
11:08<Samu>afraid the already short amount of ppl who join would join even less
11:08<V453000>then your server is boring
11:09<Samu>for some reason, i just had 5 players on the otvi server, that server is horribly suttering...
11:09<Samu>but ... meh... whatever, my fault
11:09<Samu>cpu server is running smooth
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11:11<Samu>2 more years and nocab server finishes :)
11:11<Samu>why am i getting excited
11:12<Wolf01>nobody knows
11:12<ST2>yeah, no one gets excited for bots playing - when I play, yes, I get excited xD
11:13<Wolf01>it's like watching F1 these years, I don't even get excited when Ferrari wins... maybe because I cheer Hamilton
11:16<Samu>i think i am excited to see what a mess of road network he created
11:18<Samu>well, whatever the result
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11:18<Samu>he's already first place in company value
11:19<Samu>he has beaten MogulAI
11:19<Wolf01>then if you see what the original TT was able to do, what would you do?
11:19<Samu>original tt was curly with roads lol,
11:19<Samu>i think nocab is worse
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11:20<Samu>instead of doing curly routes, he does paralel roads and crazy amount of bridges/tunnels
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11:24<Samu>the sheer amount is what makes it worse, i don't think i'll be seeing a spot to place an airport
11:24<Samu>almost there, 2049
11:25<Wolf01>I should write an AI myself
11:26<Wolf01>I would call it "GiveUpAI" because I'm not even sure to be able to finish it
11:46<Samu>setting gui.autosave 1
11:46<Samu>I am ready
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11:57<Samu>last month
11:57<Samu>waiting it up
12:01<Samu>autosave0.sav - yeah, i got it
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12:05<Samu>okay so there's space for airports after all
12:20<@Alberth>looks like a nice modern painting :)
12:21<Wolf01>what's nice on modern paintings? ;)
12:22<@Alberth>to me, it looks better than a load of other paintings
12:22<@Alberth>so that classifies it as nice, imho
12:24<Wolf01>the fact that the screenshots looks better than most paintings can be shared, but I can't find anything "nice" on a Mondrian's painting...
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12:56*andythenorth refactored 100 python vehicle files
12:58<@Alberth>that happens with one file for one vehicle :)
12:59<andythenorth>it’s slightly less silly, but slightly more odd
12:59<andythenorth>historical stuff to support
13:07*andythenorth is automating to save time
13:07<andythenorth>it takes hours
13:09<@Alberth>yep, very busy to do less :)
13:09<@Alberth>I think however in the end it pays off, as I have yet to see a case where the result was needed exactly one time
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13:14<andythenorth>if I can automate cargo sprites, it will be good
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27599 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/persian.txt (2016-06-12 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>persian: 2 changes by rkarimabadi
13:54<Alkel_U3>andythenorth: I now noticed SQUID's Harbour Point Utility Vessel is advertised as 19 mph/30 kph but it actually runs at 21 mph / 35 kph. I assume that's a bug?
13:55<Wolf01>those are the safe operational limits, maybe there's an emergency... it always an emergency XD
13:55<greeter>maybe it's a test to see how fast they can burn out the engine
13:56<Alkel_U3>maybe it's the captain burning high quality rum :-)
13:56<Alkel_U3>or low, can't tell what would be more efficient :-)
13:57<Wolf01>does it happen only with "no orders"?
13:57<greeter>generally takes moonshine for something like that, which will definitely burn out the engine fast unless it's built for ethanol based fuels
13:57<@Alberth>Alkel_U3: empty of full ship?
13:58<@Alberth>I am guessing empty :)
13:58<Alkel_U3>it happens every time, the no orders is just that i wanted to be sure that there's no interference and ran a new instance of stable with no other newgrfs
13:59<Alkel_U3>Alberth: oooh, that's it! But... isn't that a bad feature? :D
13:59<@Alberth>yep, it did since FISH 1 - something, empty ships run a bit faster :p
14:00<@Alberth>I requested that somewhen
14:00<Wolf01>if running costs scales with speed I think it could be a good feature
14:01<Wolf01>btw, got to go
14:02<Alkel_U3>that reminds me of a good old ttdpatch's feature - empty wagons would run fater by 20 kph by default
14:02<Alkel_U3>I think some wagons have different speed restrictions loaded and empty
14:03<@Alberth>run a freight train with a freight multiplier of say 4 to 5 :)
14:03<Alkel_U3>I used to do that with 6% slope - now I settled for 3x and 3% :-)
14:04<Alkel_U3>I think I was kinda masochist with that setting
14:05<@Alberth>nah, just throw enough steam engines at it :)
14:06<@Alberth>I once ran the default set with the very first engine and heavy oil, had 1 engine for every 2 wagons :)
14:07<@Alberth>4 engines for 8 wagons :)
14:07<Alkel_U3>that's a lot of engines :D
14:07<@Alberth>can't have too many steam engines, imho :p
14:08<Alkel_U3>as long as there's room for actual wagons... :-)
14:08<@Alberth>is useful, I agree :)
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14:23<Samu>preparing 7 more road vehicle AIs
14:23<Samu>will start them soon, after CPU finishing
14:29<Samu>what is the meaning of the different names for Level of easiness on MailAI?
14:31<Samu>Level of easiness: Chieftain / I'm a Chew Toy / Elves Just Want To Have Fun / Smooth Sailin' / I'm Too Young To Die / Sith Apprentice
14:31<Samu>which value makes him competitive?
14:31<Samu>make profits and so?
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14:37<andythenorth>ships travel faster when empty
14:37<andythenorth>bad feature
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14:38<Samu>from previoust testings, Perry Mail Truck is the most profitable road vehicle
14:39<Samu>if MailAI can pull it off, working only with mail, he got the potential to end first
14:39<Samu>what are the meaning of those settings? anyone know?
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14:55<greeter>hmm, wasn't expecting to see oil rigs with over 600 passengers waiting on them
14:57<Alkel_U3>greeter: btw, I got another server running if you wanna look. Even more wonders there :D
14:57<greeter>lol i'm testing out my own right now, just trying to get it to the reset date to see how a reset works. i'll take a search for it though at some point
14:59<frosch123>andythenorth: good idea, make them travel faster when full to reward bidirectional transport and refitting
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15:03<ChoHag>Is there an infinite money hack?
15:04<ChoHag>My daughter likes to play but she's more interested in making mountains and planting trees than in creating hyper-efficient train networks.
15:04<ST2>if SP, open cheat window, CTRL+ALT+C
15:10<Samu>which one is better? Chieftain or Sith Apprentice?
15:15<@Alberth>check out the newobject grfs, lots of eye-candy to put in the game
15:17<@Alberth> if you're australian minded
15:20<@Alberth> a whole forum filled with it :)
15:22<Samu>I'm gonna try Sith Apprentice, but I don't know what to expect
15:23<@Alberth> at the bottom, center column there are newobject grfs
15:23<@Alberth>ChoHag: ^
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16:06<Samu>just started 7 AIs
16:07<Samu>ChooChoo, Rondje, rocketAI, PAXLink, PathZilla, MailAI, gelignAIte
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17:12<Samu>civilai bankrupted, hmm
17:12<Samu>have to recheck params
17:13<Samu>wait a min
17:14<Samu>nevermind, it's not civilai, lol
17:14<Samu>it's rocketai
17:16<Samu>it crashed, then bankrupted
17:16<Samu>crashed it is then
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17:33<Samu>replaced rocketai with civilai and started
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17:38<Samu>script took too long to save on server 6, that is...
17:39<Samu>PathZilla :(
17:39<Samu>restarting without autosave
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18:24<Samu> - here they are
18:25<Samu>the new round
18:25<Samu>except that otvi
18:25<Samu>that guy will only finish tomorrow
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19:14<supermop__>Alkel_U3: current jgrpp seems to be xxx.3 not .2
19:14<supermop__>as of today
19:18<supermop__>don't know where to find the older version, so i cant join
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19:24<Samu>choochoo bankrupted, kind of expected
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19:27<Samu>AroAI is replacing ChooChoo
19:30<Samu>CivilAI bankrupted, really weird this AI at times
19:35<Samu>Convoy is taking over
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 13 00:00:58 2016